This is not the topic for discussing the consequences of Mercedes-Benz taking over Brawn GP team. Please go to this topic for discussions along those lines.

I start this topic to find out your opinion on what caused this divorce between Mclaren and Mercedes. By all accounts the two have made great partners, even though the Schumacher and Ferrari domination eclipses the Mclaren-Mercedes effort in the statistics department. Mercedes have invested and entrenched themselves heavily in Mclaren, so why throw it all away and make a fresh beginning with Brawn?

My theory is: road cars. Sure the Mclaren MP4-12C might be a somewhat different car compared to the typical Mercedes-AMG, but they still try to bait the same small pool of customers who buy cars in this price segment. As long as Mclaren were dependent on Mercedes the partnership was symbiotic. But Mclaren trying to gain independence (by expanding into road car business) must be threatening to Mercedes, since they did not (could not?) buy a majority stake in the team.

Another factor that might have played a part is Mclaren's ethics. The 'Ferrari copygate' must have strained their relationship and sown seeds of discord between the two partners. But it must have been Martin Whitmarsh's terrible handling of 'lie-gate' that must have acted as the proverbial final straw. At this point Mercedes might have said: 'A leopard does not change its spots. Better to start afresh rather than risk further humiliation thanks to Mclaren.'

Please share your thoughts on this. And as official statements are released from all parties explaining why this happened, link to them as well.

Power and influence.
Mercedes wanted more but McLaren didn't give in.

Officially its the road car but imo its a bit of everything.

Mercedes can distance themselves from McLaren who are"

• In competition to them building road cars
• An embarresment from the spygate scandal
• An embarresment from the liegate scandal
• Are paying Merc 200 million to buy Brawn for a fraction of that
• At a time when the manufaturers are leaving they get to stand tall as Mercedes GP, something they were never able to do as McLaren-Mercedes. (because of ownership)

Could be a high-risk move for Merc- Bear in mind that although Brawn won the championship this year, some people argue it was done with a car that was the beneficiary of much of the Honda legacy, and which according to some at the beginning of the year was of dubious legality. More to the point, you might be able to argue that the team's ability to develop that car over the year wasn't great enough to make their championship a comfortably achieved one.

Imagine the scenario if the Brawn/Mercedes relationship takes time to gel, next years car is off-the-pace....and meanwhile McLaren build an absolute rocketship that dominates all season. Might be some awkard questions being asked in the Mercedes-Benz boardroom this time next year....

Probably because McLaren has wider ambitions. It's not like McLaren and Mercedes have always been tied together anyway, it's only a relatively recent inception. People shouldn't exactly be surprised that they're eventually going to be split up.

It was reported lately that it was Ron Dennis that blocked Mercedes from providing engines to Red Bull (who ended up having to re-sign with Renault) and to Brawn.

I don't think a big corporation like Daimler likes having outsiders telling them what they can do or not and although it may not be the only reason, it must have played a part.

Nicely summed up.

I think it has been a pretty mutually beneficial partnership, but too many negatives now associated with McLaren. That can be accepted to a point, but when you have a team with a clean sheet, run by a guy with honesty and integrity like Ross Brawn, it is clearly good for a big corp like Mercedes, for whom image is important, to work with a "clean" team rather than damaged McLaren.

Liegate and Spygate wouldn't have been enough by themselves, but may well have represented a tipping point.

I suspect it's McLaren's involvement in far too many embarrassing scandals recently, all of which Mercedes were associated with. Mercedes probably decided it was time to own the controlling stake in a team.

What's the reason for the extension of their technical partnership from 2011 to 2015 (and optionally even further)?

Daimler is just giving back their shares (till 2011), because it's too expensive for them to fund the McLaren Group with loads of money every year, when they can't control it, and because their money is being used to make McLaren cars. Daimler can't fund their road car maker rival, but can help the Formula 1 team, if it's called McLaren Mercedes and silver and the star is on it.

But for the F1 technical partnership no divorce, it's about the ownership only.

Todts last act, getting Stepney to send unasked for information to McLaren to bring them down

Ron Dennis in his statement offered a lot to be chewed on.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80173

"I've often stated that it's my belief that, in order to survive and thrive in 21st-century Formula 1, a team must become much more than merely a team."

Look throughout Dennis involvement with McLaren, and you'll find that he used manufacturers for his business purposes. Nothing new. Mercedes IMO was part of a stepping stone to make his dream of building own cars work. Good oforhim.

I'm looking forward to the new liveries.
Can McLaren drop the silver?

In their press release McLaren say they will be keeping their current livery

http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/mclaren-...php?article=380

That's pretty much it, not one specific reason but several that lead to the split eventually.

It seems to me Ron is back stronger than ever. That's a good thing.

Erm - the relationship he has forged over many years with Mercedes has got to a stage where Mercedes would rather be in bed with somebody else.

If that's stronger, thank goodness it didn't get weaker...

Whenever a McLaren-Mercedes won, it was always a McLaren that won. Car manufacturers get more publicity than the engine builders. Simples.

so much Ronspeak in his statement... like he is trying to make up for lost time


the main reason they split is cos Mclaren wants to make roadcars solo....

I think the real reason is that Mercedes wanted their own team. It has been their operating standard in all categories.

When Sauber started using Mercedes engines, they gradually went from Sauber-Mercedes to Mercedes. And when Mercedes started supplying McLaren, they eventually also bought a stake in the team, with the view of buying all shares in coming years.

This was something Dennis did not want and when he and Mansour sold shares to a third party instead of Daimler, the Germans were furious (as was widely reported in the German media). I am sure that at that point Daimler started looking around for a new opportunity.

I think Ron announcing the roadcar strategy is the only reason. Because only last winter Mercedes agreed an extension to the exclusive arrangement with McLaren.

Mercedes spent so much money on the McLaren Technology Centre so that that the Mercedes SLR McLaren cars could be built there - only for Ron to go and announce he is making his own and they ain't gonna have Mercedes engines and will directly rival the SLR/AMG range. Piss Mercedes off much? you bet'ya.

You can't be seen to fund a market rival - thats all it is really. It would've been like Mercedes giving BMW money to rival themselves in the luxury range.

MP4-12C announce and then this from Daimler big boss:


They have different goals now so is quite a natural split. Every year Mercedes discussed to buy out McLaren and every year Board meeting Ron Dennis rejected that notion. Mass production of McLaren Supercars was the final straw.

Similarly an extremely proud organisation like McLaren don't like having their every move dictated to them so it swings both ways; it's like I posted a month or so ago, when big egos clash there will always be repercussions similar to what we're seeing now.

What will be even more interesting than disecting all the details (as we are now) is who comes out on top next year??

Does this not remind you of Williams and BMW situation?
Of course, BMW weren't as heavily invested in Williams.

Seems to be right. According to Motorsport Aktuell it were McLaren's plans of supersport road car which eventually led to the divorce. But put yourself into Ron's shoes: you have all ingredients to build breathtaking sports cars and some fat German bastards say you have no right. How would you behave?

I don't think Mclaren is going to dominate next season. The top contenders are Ferrari and Red Bull imo with Mclaren having a good shot. All depends on how good the aerodynamics of the 2010 Mclaren is, because if it wasn't for the silly aero of the Mclaren this year, Mclaren would have had the best car easily.

Mclaren builds amazing sportscars. 15 years later the old Mclaren F1 from 1994 still kills 99.99% of the modern sportscars. Only the Bugatti, Koenigseggs and the new American car is faster
( they are just a little bit faster, not alot )

I guess Mclaren is going to follow the path of Ferrari I reckon.

What are the reasons......??

Too much "Sauerkraut" in the Woking canteen!

McLaren aim to become a British Ferrari in the next decade. They need to be independant both as a racing team and road car manufacturer.

Definately has nothing to do with spygate or liegate, if anything the two parties are closer together over that. The respect between the 2 companies is massive.

Fixed for accuracy, because I'm pretty sure neither of those incidents had any bearing on this decision whatsoever. It's about control, plain and simple. Merc bought into McLaren as a stepping stone to full ownership of an F1 team, Ron Dennis has other ideas about the future of McLaren. Owning 40% and having zero control of an entity really isn't a terribly attractive long term proposition, in fact I'm amazed how Norbert has managed to explain it to the board for the years he has.

It's because of Ron Dennis ofcourse and his plans to make new supercars which Mercedes is not happy with. The old Mclaren F1 at the time was a car that didn't compete with Mercedes interest but this new supercar Ron is making will be a competitor. So Mercedes does not want to give money to Mclaren which might partially be used for Ron his supercar program

On the bright side, this means Mclaren can keep all of their earnings and what they win instead of paying Mercedes.

Distance themselves from Liegate/Hamilton. Good policy

mutual hate generated by ron Mooohahah

seriously, RD has explained everything in his "hailing" statement, I would think that is about the core of it. Past 2-3 years problems have not helped either, or to put it in another way: helped in realising they had a different approach to various situations. So they split, and it seems to me they split in a cultured way.

Dream on Ricardo, of course did the damage to the Mercedes image because of McLaren spying and lying contribute to the split.

The answer of Dieter Zetsch when specifically asked about it says it all, he doesn't deny that the scandals were part of the reason but just says that he's looking to the future.

Control. An opportunity (Brawn) arose whereby Mercedes could buy into a pre-existing, successful (at least right now, and recent success is what matters) team and re-brand it in their own name. Ross Brawn probably wasn't interested in owning a team outright over the long term - his team ownership was a last minute effort when all other scenarios to save what was the old Honda squad failed - and was thus happy to let Mercedes take on that role. McLaren has existed for years as an independent team; they aren't looking to have a manufacturer take over, have made that clear, and so Mercedes bought into Brawn. Not exactly complicated stuff.

It seems Mercedes had Ron on thei ignore-list, otherwise I cannot see Ron calling this win-win situation.

+1
And to start with a clean slate after all the scandals..

He didn't say that they were in any way part of the decision either. If you think those incidents had any bearing on Mercedes decision you're daft, plain and simple.

Whatever makes you sleep better dude, btw now we're talking about the scandals, McLaren without Mercedes better behave impeccably from now on because the big German manufacturer won't be around anymore to save Macca's ass when they are in a pickle with FIA again.

win - win, I'm not so sure Ronzo

Brawn won the title this year and it was open for negotiation, while Mclaren kept its door closed.

Shouldn't Mercedes be worried about not having the protection of an independant McLaren, since we know what Max Mosley thinks about evil manufacturers....

What the hell has sleeping got to do with anything?

Mercedes is a business, the partnership with McLaren failed to make any sense while control and full ownership was a no-no. Add in Ron building his own sportscar division and you've got a competitor that you're helping fund. There are so many logical business reasons for Mercedes moving to Brawn why you have to try and inject nonsensical issues that I can almost guarantee didn't blip sales across the globe for Mercedes (or if they did they were probably UP for the free advertising they got) is beyond me.

In case you missed it, Max is yesterday's news he's out

Exactly it's not one thing but many reasons but it's funny (and predictable) that you want to exclude the damage McLaren has done to the image of Mercedes by spying, cheating and lying as one of those reasons.

In fact Dieter Zetsch, when asked about it, not flat-out deying it but evading the question and saying that they now only look at the future says it all.

Timing is the reason. The timing is perfect for Mercedes to create their own team from a cheap but competitive team. The timing is also perfect since McLaren is now becoming a manufacturer too. Mercedes and McLaren were partner but McLaren has a bigger role in the team, now Mercedes wants a bigger role and they could only do it when they buy another team. I just hope that Mercedes won't end up like BMW. I'm sure that McLaren has nothing to worry about since BrawnGP could still win the championship even when McLaren was still the "Mercedes team".

It' a mutually beneficial divorce. They both have different goals for the future. Mercedes can have the influence with their own team that they could never have with McLaren, and McLaren can continue to develop the roadcar side of their business without the scorn of Mercedes boardroom members. I've never heard anybody out of internet forum talk about spygate so I would say that's a minor issue.

The negatives are that McLaren has to find the Merc money from somewhere, and for Mercedes they have to hope that Brawn was not simply a one season fluke.

Reasons for Mercedes to dump McLaren?

Dennis' refusal - or failure - to sign a German driver.
The Stepney/Coughlan affair.
The Hamilton/Ryan affair.
The SLR failure.

I'd have to say "all of the above reasons". With the exception of the rantings of JPW.

It's time to move on. For both parties. Both were getting constrained in the relationship and wanted greater control of their destiny. That's a neutral statement overall and most unusually the eventual split (before 2015 I would think) will be most likely a win-win.

I wonder at the symetry if there is one, with the Williams BMW alliance wen the Germans were firmly told "thanks but no thanks". It has taken Williams some time to recover but there are some signs of resurgence. With McLaren I think there is so much depth in the engineering and business systems, corporate marketing etc that McLaren will be hoping to phase M-B out earlier than the scheduled 2015.

Mercedes can benefit from a bigger presence - provided the Brawn organisation has critical mass in it's engineering team to allow the team to be a heavy hitter beyond 2009.

So - the scandals will be minor contributors (probably used by Norbert to persuade his board directors of the need to fund a bigger F1 world). The diverging aspirations of sportscar production is probably a larger contributor. But the main ones are M-B's desire to be an F1 name in their own right and the two parties' inability to agree on key issues.

Whatever, I think that McLaren are the more likely to come out the other side in good shape. Finding an engine supplier or "partner" isn't an insurmountable hurdle, even given the 1-2 year period many splits give the team to find a replacement and build a new car. With their current agreement "through to 2015" McLaren could well have their own engine design and build up and running. This would mean Mac move a step closer to Ferrari status and have many more business opportunities. It probably also more closly resembles the vision Bruce had for the company all those years ago.

As funny and predictable as you wanting to INclude it. It had zero effect on Mercedes, other than to perhaps a bunch of raving loons.

LOL Ricky, it's funny to see you getting all defensive about the boys in grey in situations like this.

I merely agreed with other posters here that Spygate and Liegate were one of the reasons Mercedes wanted to distance itself from the Woking squad.
Not _THE_ reason but a contributing factor and look what Macca's former best friend is writing in The Times today:


linkie

So, a writing by a journalist can be considered as a prove?
http://www.journalisted.com/edward-gorman
http://www.journalisted.com/ben-smith

The guy is not even someone from Mercedes.

I'm sure the scandal of spygate gave those in the Mercedes boardroom some leeway to argue for seperation. However, it is not THE reason. You don't go and buy another team on the whim of a moment of bad publicity and were Mercedes that concerned about scandals then they wouldn't be in F1 at all.