Indeed. Mercedes managed the same as Ilmor supplying 1 team as Mercedes supplying 3.

At the end of the day though, it is the same bunch of guys. British engineered engines supplying British engineered cars.

Saying that Mercedes suddenly made a crap Ilmor great is a stupid statement. Ilmor won 2 WDC's and 1 WCC years before Merc took over and Mercedes created an unreliable engine 3 years after they took over.

Bollocks to your argument. (May I say that on TV)?

You are twisting the facts; point was made, again, that under intial management there was a lot of reliability issues due to lousy conditions at the factory (ask Kimi), and while Mercedes name was associated with those DNFs, I think we can now safely say that phenomenon, has now almost disappeared (ask JB).

Now, you can ask your friends at McLaren why they haven't won championship in 2008 or 2007, but do not hang that on Mercedes. 2009 was pretty clear indication (at least to me) where we should look for the answers, so do not come to me with some stupid and irrelevant statistics, because one could claim if the same motor was mounted on some other cars in 2008, we could have had a different championship results yet again.

Ilmor won, because they were the best at handling and using beryllium. When it was banned, with the kind help from ferrari, the engines were midfield at their best. Not until Merc took totally control. Were they able to turn it around.

So, 3 years after taking over, Mercedes still didn't get it right, and we have to ignore 1998 and 1999?

Mclaren lost the championship for them selfes in 2007, with incredible stupid decisions, 2008 they won and then brawn in 09. And head of V8 engine development was not involved with Ilmor. And dont blame me for hating mclaren because i have always supported them.

Even though it was a few years before Merc took over, those years before when Ilmor suddenly started getting good they was getting funding from Merc to spend on research and development.

I doubt highly they feel that way.

1. The Mercedes isn't powered by Honda.. so major difference there.
2. Brawn and Co. were not Honda.
3. Jenson is no longer there.. neither is Rubens.

Actually, very little of Honda remains.. except maybe the factory and some employee's. So what does Honda have to look at when the see when some of teh Works Mercedes team is simply working out of a facility that they help (not entirely) build. They've got more to worry about corporately and increasing sales and looking to replace an aging fleet of cars. Acura is still not performing at level that they can be happy about.



Paco

All the parts are manufactured and probably designed in Stuttgart. They only assemble the engines in GB.

I very much doubt that. What was Ilmor specialises in Racing Engines, that is what they do, design and build, Merc will just supply the funds

Nope, Mercedes High Performance Engines is based in Brixworth where they design and build their engines. Mercedes High Performance Engines is Ilmor renamed.

Stuttgart makes road cars, nothing whatsoever to do with F1.

How about, "the entire factory and all of the employees were from the Honda tenure".
Honda invested 100s of millions in the Brackley facilities over the years, which made it a very attractive purchase for Mercedes.

only thing im stating, is that it is due to mercedes knowhow that the engines are so good, and not what little is left of ilmor. Ilmor has produced nothing since he left. He tried Moto Gp but failed hugely!

My problem is that I cannot locate the source (which undoubtedly you will ask for), but I doubt that you are correct on that point; about two years ago I read in German papers something else. Besides, Sttutgart is paying for all that damn circus, which you so conveniently and almost without exception you are forgetting, so do not say they aren't involved.

A few years ago, I was walking through the plant in Untertürkheim (actually Mettingen) and saw Formula 1 engine parts (the cylinder head and the cylinder block) beeing manufactured there. I very much doubt, Brixworth has an own foundry...

A few years ago, I saw pixies making Ferrari engines out of magic dust.

Then I woke up.

Trust me, Engines are designed and made in Brixworth, just as they were in the championship winning years of 1998/1999.

I find this whole discussion very interesting and would very much appreciate if anyone with concrete information about who does/did what. could clarify the disagreement. Is the engines designed and produced in Germany or England, is it mostly Illmor personell, or is it just a transfer of MBHPE personell etc.

http://www.mercedes-benz-hpe.com/hpe/index.htm This site has a timeline that is only partly explanatory.

What is certain is that before MBHPE took full control over Mercedes-Illmor the engines had a resembelance to being, as someone above so brilliantly put it, landmines.

Nope, I give more credence to Mercedes Euros then to their knowhow, if their knowhow was so good then they had no reason to buy Ilmor in the first place, they bought Ilmor for their expertise in a area they was lacking in, thay will not have shifted since, the research would have continued in Ilmor in brixton.

As to Ilmor not producing anything since he left, erm, he was the owner and creator but I don't think he had a hand in all the build and development of the engines.

They had massive underfunding, they could not compete with the factory teams, they was little better then Hart and Judd.

I find this strange as Mercedes was a majority shareholder in Illmor since 1994.

Mercedes took majority control in 2002.

Seriously , Jarno.
-I was working there in my school holidays during the summer. I live near Stuttgart and consider going to the museum tomorrow. But I don't know, if they will let me in. I'll probaby go there anyway, because the museum lies on my way to the university.

You said before Mercedes took over, they started ploughing money into Ilmor for development and they was able to start improving.

Look up Mario vs Norbert. Norbert took it on the chin every time Mario told Norbert, "you can't even build an F1 engine". The reason is that is was true. BMW built their own engines, whilst Mercedes didn't. It is well known throughout BMW Sauber, and I know a number of BMW Sauber people.

If Mercedes were developing their own engine outside of Ilmor, why would they keep it a secret?

Mercedes have contributed to Ilmor massively. They provided them with cash. That is it. German cash, not German engineering.

What time CET is the launch tomorrow?

interesting, it would be nice to have some numbers or inside info about how much is left from the old Ilmor.

Not surem, but someone mentioned 11 am, I think...

I don't think that really matters.
Mercedes bought 100% of Ilien's shop in 2005. 2005 the engines were still going kaboom. The V8 was a catastrophy at the beginning of 2006.
IIRC they got some Cosworth guys and suddenly the engine went from zero to hero.

About Stuttgart, IIRC the engines are only tested there on the bench.

How many hours more to go? If its a couple of more hours or so, I can consider being awake for the launch.

Nobody knows for certain - at least, nobody here knows for certain - because Mercedes haven't specified a time (that we know of). I'd expect it some time within the next five or six hours, though. The teams tend to like the hours between ten and two for making announcements; noon is a popular time.

About three hours, if Modern Lover is to be believed.

what I wanna know is are McLaren going to have the EXACT SAME MERCEDES ENGINE in 2010 as Mercedes GP ??

If yes than WHY ?? What is the point then ??? I find it stupid that your competition will have the identical same engine that you are using yourself ....

And another question,. when are McLaren going to be completely independant from Mercedes, when will Mercedes stop furnishing the Wolking based team their enigines ??

Thanx to anybody with the answers !

Yes, they are.


All the customer teams use the exact same engine as the works teams. When McLaren was the unofficial Mercedes works team in 2009, they used the same Mercedes engines as Brawn did. Red Bull run the exact same Renault engine as Renault do. Toro Rosso use the same Ferrari engine as Ferrari. It's a part of the rules: engine suppliers cannot provide an engine that they don't use themselves. It would be too easy to develop an underpowered engine to keep the customers behind you on the track. Also, it would have been impossible for McLaren to develop and test thier own engine from the end of 2009 to the beginning of 2010, and the Mercedes engine is the best on the grid. Why wouldn't they use it?


The plan is for Mercedes to gradually phase their involvement with McLaren out over several years. It's the best way to do it because it doesn't put pressure on either side. A seamless transition over time is always better than an immediate, abrupt one. Mercedes will keep supplying engines for several years - I believe 2014 or 2015 may be the date the arrangement expires - but it will probably end when McLaren have their own engine or go elsewhere.

I saw on another forum that the presentation will start at 11 CET. Live streaming from the event to take place at: http://www.sport1.de/

This is starting to interfere with my work I'm so excited.

Thanx Captain

You didn't need to go to another forum for that.

Also Live at: http://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/livestream/

11am CET. It's, what, about 8:30 in Berlin right now (is Berlin on CET?), so that means we'll see it in two and a half hours.

Good stuff and thanks! Appreciate it!

EDIT: @ The captain of tightpants, I don't think we'll see it at 11. The presentation is only starting at 11. I suspect they'll rant on about heritage etc for a good hour before we get to see the actual livery.

It doesn't matter too much to me. See, the thing is that I'm going down to Sydney tomorrow, and I need to get up early for it. So if the presentation was too late, I wouldn't be able to see the actual livery until Wednesday. But it wil only be 9pm in two and a half hours' time, so even if they bang on about heritage for an hour (whatever happened to German efficiency?), I'll still be able to see it - and post my thoughts on the subject here and at a few other places.

So for short, 11:00 CET is how many hours/minutes/whatever from now?

Thanks.

Two hours, twenty-two minutes away.

You timed that well, didn't you?

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/20...t_10012501.html

Norbert Haug: "In 1934 paint was scratched off because the car was too heavy. This reminiscence experience will also be on the new car. If you take off the paint, carbon fibre will appear. There will be some parts on the car which will reveal some bare carbon fibre parts."

Nobby is cheap.

That. Will. Be. AWESOME!

Seriously, I think my brain just exploded.

Judging by the front page of the Mercedes Benz motorsport site I'd guess the car will be mainly silver, white and green.

http://www3.mercedes-benz.com/mbcom_v4/gb/...#/series/1/home

"When I win in Bahrain, we will care less about the number which is on my car and more about the driver who's inside it!" Rosberg

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Why not just silver?

Norbert, there was no paint scraping! It never happened! Pictures of the factory launch show that the W25 rolled out of the factory silver and there aren't any photos of a white W25.

Forgive me, but what the hell is that?

Get your facts right. I think Haug knows more than us.

When the car rolled out in 1934 it was white and Schumacher set the fastest time instantly. Maybe you should read the Mercedes GP History book, revised edition.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/piccard...no-facepalm.jpg