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MadYarpen
Rubens Barrichello was asked if he had any advice to give Rosberg up against Schumi: "Yeah. Get out of there!"
Galko877
QUOTE (MadYarpen @ Feb 1 2010, 21:15) *
Rubens Barrichello was asked if he had any advice to give Rosberg up against Schumi: "Yeah. Get out of there!"



I have to say that I felt a little sorry for Rosberg this morning when the car was rolled out and all the photographs were shouting "Michael! Michael!" to make him look their way and nobody was shouting "Nico!" He looked a little lost there. He will need a lot of mental strength IMO, or just put up an "I don't care" attitude. It's not something that Michael does or the team does, but it must be hard. On the other hand Michael has the hype and the pressure on his shoulders, so that's not easy either.
F1Champion
A little disappointed at the sidepod openings, given the small openings on the McLaren. But maybe because of cooling issues in 09 they decided to play it safe. The nose actually looks fairly high in the youtube footage. The diffuser certainly looks simplistic given last year's design and its possible that McLaren and Ferrari pushed harder on their designs because of their deficits in 09. Certainly looks like they'll have a slightly different engine cover for the first race, maybe the same one with more exhaust cover or a totally new design.

Nice start anyway.
Snuggie
If I remember correctly, new aero package will be mounted on the car before Bahrain. That probably explains the diffusor simplicity.
IMO there are two options:
a) the diffuser isn't ready yet
b) they are hiding it (maybe the aero numbers look good, and they are convinced so they will test it at the last moment)

It just seems weird that the diffuser would stay so similar to last year's, given the fact that they took quite a lot of time to develop the car.
rad787
QUOTE (Galko877 @ Feb 2 2010, 02:31) *
I have to say that I felt a little sorry for Rosberg this morning when the car was rolled out and all the photographs were shouting "Michael! Michael!" to make him look their way and nobody was shouting "Nico!" He looked a little lost there. He will need a lot of mental strength IMO, or just put up an "I don't care" attitude. It's not something that Michael does or the team does, but it must be hard. On the other hand Michael has the hype and the pressure on his shoulders, so that's not easy either.



Don't think it is a simple diffuser. I count about 6 (feel free to correct me) layers of the diffuser.

http://www.thef1.com/galerias/miscelanea/d...-2010?c_start=2

These are the layers I see:

1. First one that 4-sided black area at the middle and in between the exhausts (*) and on top the beam wing.

2. Second layer is directly in the beam wing itself just above the tail light and at the center. (*)

3. Third are the triangular shaped exits on each side of the tail light.

4. Two boxes below No. 3 above.

5. The upwards opening below No. 4.

6. The diffusor mandated by the rules, lowest level.


I put *s on 1 and 2 as I need to see that in other angles. But that is at least 4 layers.
H2H
Thanks for the shots. I rather like the look, and there are quite some interesting details in that rather interesting design. Particulary intrigued by the cooling and the rear.


H2H
One
Brawn id a perfect RBR nose job to its car... Not sure if it is better than the real one, tho. Looking forward, really.
Seanspeed
QUOTE (kar @ Feb 1 2010, 10:19) *
So have the new teams. They've chosen not to use what's on offer. Super Aguri started off with a 4 year old chassis, these new teams have had access to 2010 toyotas and bmws.

All 3 of the 'new' teams(Sauber doesn't count) are doing everything from the ground-up, designing their cars themselves. And none have backing from a major manufacturer. Sorry, but I dont think the situations compare at all and nothing SA did was really 'remarkable' compared to them.
Seanspeed
QUOTE (rad787 @ Feb 1 2010, 14:25) *
Don't think it is a simple diffuser. I count about 6 (feel free to correct me) layers of the diffuser.


I think you're counting some 'elements' of the diffuser as seperate layers.
rad787
QUOTE (Seanspeed @ Feb 2 2010, 03:57) *
I think you're counting some 'elements' of the diffuser as seperate layers.

I count them as different layers if they are not on the same plane or level. That's how it was last year and how we had "decks".
Timstr11
I wouldn't bother looking at the W01's current diffuser, as it's nearly identical to the one raced at the end of last season
(except for the new rear crash structure running through it)
Singapore/Suzuka 2009:



rad787
Video of Massa passing Schumi's W01:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botoXcBso5w...player_embedded
MadYarpen
you cant post html on forum
KiloWatt
What gearbox is the car using? Surely not the honda one anymore? Right? ambivalent.gif
Timstr11
QUOTE (KiloWatt @ Feb 1 2010, 21:59) *
What gearbox is the car using? Surely not the honda one anymore? Right? ambivalent.gif

???? Why is that a problem?
BAR-Honda-Brawn, now Mercedes always had top gearbox technology.
BAR-Honda were the first team to run a full carbon-fibre gearbox reliably.
Also one of the first to introduce a quick-shift gearbox in F1.

kar
QUOTE (KiloWatt @ Feb 1 2010, 20:59) *
What gearbox is the car using? Surely not the honda one anymore? Right? ambivalent.gif


That's a very good point. The gearbox was one of the weaker aspects of last year's Brawn.
kar
QUOTE (Timstr11 @ Feb 1 2010, 21:06) *
???? Why is that a problem?
BAR-Honda-Brawn, now Mercedes always had top gearbox technology.
BAR-Honda were the first team to run a full carbon-fibre gearbox reliably.
Also one of the first to introduce a quick-shift gearbox in F1.


It also tended to blow up a lot.
peroa
When, why, how?

QUOTE (kar @ Feb 1 2010, 22:08) *
That's a very good point. The gearbox was one of the weaker aspects of last year's Brawn.
Victor_RO
QUOTE (peroa @ Feb 1 2010, 23:09) *
When, why, how?


Only mechanical retirement and cause of mechanical grid penalties for the Brawns all year was the gearbox. Rubens took 2 unscheduled changes over the season and retired in Turkey with a gearbox issue.
Seanspeed
QUOTE (Victor_RO @ Feb 1 2010, 16:13) *
Only mechanical retirement and cause of mechanical grid penalties for the Brawns all year was the gearbox. Rubens took 2 unscheduled changes over the season and retired in Turkey with a gearbox issue.

Things can be made more reliable in this sport.

There's no need to chuck the whole gearbox, necessarily. Some upgrades could do the trick.
anakin
By the way, the designer of the W01 is Loic Bigois, the team's head of aerodynamics.

Let's not forget Brawn/Mercedes GP had plenty of time to test new diffuser concepts. Maybe they've already concluded this (simpler looking) shape is actually the best for them. Unlike the other teams which were a year behind development and must still find the optimum design.
Rob
Is it the MGP W01 or just the W01?

Normally I'd assume that the MGP was just short for Mercedes Grand Prix, but on the official website there are sentences such as "MERCEDES GP PETRONAS MGP W01 CAR MAKES DEBUT IN VALENCIA"

That's a hell of a mouthful.
F1 Tor.
QUOTE (rad787 @ Feb 1 2010, 20:44) *


I love the clapping. OMG, Felipe passed Michael during practice!!!! lol.gif
Lukin83
QUOTE (Victor_RO @ Feb 1 2010, 22:13) *
Only mechanical retirement and cause of mechanical grid penalties for the Brawns all year was the gearbox. Rubens took 2 unscheduled changes over the season and retired in Turkey with a gearbox issue.


Wasn't that because Merc engine, unlike Honda, has no device to pump oil into the gearbox and the external device wasn't sufficient enough?
Spa One
QUOTE (F1 Tor. @ Feb 2 2010, 00:06) *
I love the clapping. OMG, Felipe passed Michael during practice!!!! lol.gif


Yeah, its a really just a video of Michael letting Massa pass.

Sakae
QUOTE (Timstr11 @ Feb 1 2010, 16:06) *
???? Why is that a problem?
BAR-Honda-Brawn, now Mercedes always had top gearbox technology.
BAR-Honda were the first team to run a full carbon-fibre gearbox reliably.
Also one of the first to introduce a quick-shift gearbox in F1.
Have you noticed that tandem BAR-Honda actually hasn't accomplished much on the track until Ross came along? In my understanding they had left behind a facility in reasonable shape, but the car concept...? Never anything original which could produce results. There is no Honda's vehicle related technical heritage as far as I can see.
Kompressor
QUOTE (Timstr11 @ Feb 1 2010, 21:06) *
???? Why is that a problem?
BAR-Honda-Brawn, now Mercedes always had top gearbox technology.
BAR-Honda were the first team to run a full carbon-fibre gearbox reliably.
Also one of the first to introduce a quick-shift gearbox in F1.



Totally agree with you. up.gif Brawn was offered the McLaren transmission but decided to stay with Honda's own carbon fibre case version. It was pretty reliable even though it was mated to a different engine. cool.gif
Don't forget that Honda won an award for it's gearbox in 2004. http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2004/10/2400.html
bonneville
QUOTE (KiloWatt @ Jan 25 2010, 15:15) *
Now that I'm used to the livery. The good and the bad. Lets get the bad first:

Definitely not fond of the black bits. The nose and wavey snot lines looks a bit...odd (I can't think of another word). Something a bit more discreet might have looked a bit more in peace with the rest of the design.

The same can be said for black background of the "Mercedes-Benz" on the engine cover (which, for the record, is the worst bit of the livery). That black shadey patch doesn't appear to follow any sort of contour or..well..anything for that matter. It's just there. And the front part (the part nearest to the front of the car) of the boundary of that black patch is smooth and defined, while the rest of the boundary has more of a washed out apearance. It doesn't fit well at all.

So their use of black as an aesthetic measure (as opposed to a functional measure - the writing etc) is a bit helter scelter and without much coordination. But I love the silver! It just screams Mercedes!! My dad had a 300SE many summers ago and I swear its the exact same colour! Gorgeous! The use of turqoise is very discreet and tastefull and I think it goes well with the silver. And I'm in love with the red letters on the white backgrounds! It looks classic. Some criticised the wavey silver detailing on the bodywork. Me? I love it.

All of this is, of course, IMHO. Some like it, some don't. Nothing new.


EDIT:
Where the HELL is AMG?! I was SOOOOO looking forward to seeing it on the car..
I'll be more than happy seeing one (but preferably both) of these baby's chasing down and voilently harassing a macca or ferrari. Bring on Feb1!


Fixed.

ferruccio
QUOTE (Timstr11 @ Feb 1 2010, 21:13) *
I wouldn't bother looking at the W01's current diffuser, as it's nearly identical to the one raced at the end of last season
(except for the new rear crash structure running through it)
Singapore/Suzuka 2009:


Yes agreed. They're running interim parts. The 'good stuff' will be put on just before Bahrain, as hinted by Brawn.
pingu666
QUOTE (Kompressor @ Feb 2 2010, 02:11) *
Totally agree with you. up.gif Brawn was offered the McLaren transmission but decided to stay with Honda's own carbon fibre case version. It was pretty reliable even though it was mated to a different engine. cool.gif
Don't forget that Honda won an award for it's gearbox in 2004. http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2004/10/2400.html


the gearbox would be heavily revised i think, few obivous points 1)to link up with the merc engine better, 2)sort out the oil cooling etc more neatly 3) whatever mods needed to exploit DD more 4) normal year on year improvements and adustments to fit new car
Kompressor
QUOTE (MiPe @ Feb 2 2010, 02:02) *
Have you noticed that tandem BAR-Honda actually hasn't accomplished much on the track until Ross came along? In my understanding they had left behind a facility in reasonable shape, but the car concept...? Never anything original which could produce results. There is no Honda's vehicle related technical heritage as far as I can see.


You probably weren't cheering for BAR Honda in 2004. Maybe you missed them finishing second to Ferrari in the constructors’ championship with 119 points and 11 podium finishes. At that time David Richards was hailed as the messiah. In 2006 Honda scored their first win. Sounds like they managed to accomplish something.
The award winning carbon fibre gearbox technology that Honda developed is still being used. Surely the gearbox qualifies as Honda heritage not to mention the facilities and personnel who have been with the team since it was called British American Racing. Villeneuve's original race engineer, Jock Clear, worked with Barrichello last season. Don't be a 'Honda heritage' denier. wave.gif




Sakae
QUOTE (Kompressor @ Feb 1 2010, 22:59) *
You probably weren't cheering for BAR Honda in 2004. Maybe you missed them finishing second to Ferrari in the constructors' championship with 119 points and 11 podium finishes. At that time David Richards was hailed as the messiah. In 2006 Honda scored their first win. Sounds like they managed to accomplish something.
The award winning carbon fibre gearbox technology that Honda developed is still being used. Surely the gearbox qualifies as Honda heritage not to mention the facilities and personnel who have been with the team since it was called British American Racing. Villeneuve's original race engineer, Jock Clear, worked with Barrichello last season. Don't be a 'Honda heritage' denier. wave.gif
Jock rhymes with joke; what did he accomplished in all those years other than collecting fat paycheck? Honda's "excellent" performance on the track must have trully excaped me; I usually wasn't watching much down back at the field. Must be all that success which made them to leave in 2008, but then it's not first time. When Renault's engines whip them, Honda folded their tail between legs and left F1 in a hurry. Yes, there was undeniably time when Honda's engines were best available for short little while, but they got cought and overtaken. Success in full vehicle engineering? No way, sorry. Ross wasn't hired for nothing; surely he cannot take all the credit for last WCC, but I give him credit for new direction set forth for works, and clean up of the mess he had inherited. Would they had WCC without Ross? I guess we will never know, but neither 2007 or 2008 season were indicative they would.
Zhuk
That diffuser is definitely an interim part then since its basically taken off of last years Brawn, should be interesting to see when the new part comes on the car

First day of testing went as good as one could hope, but we will have to keep our eyes on the cars development over testing to get a true barometer of its performance.
Captain Tightpants
Haha, I just had someone try to convince me that the two holes carved into the engine cowling under the airbox (are there even two holes there? I can see where they might be, but I can't tell if they actually are) are a form of "secret turbocharger" that has been made without compressor, turbine, cooling system or any means to recycle exhaust gases to drive the system. This "secret turbocharger" puts air into the engine where it is burned and then forces it - still pressurised - into the diffuser ...
DFV
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Feb 2 2010, 08:57) *
Haha, I just had someone try to convince me that the two holes carved into the engine cowling under the airbox (are there even two holes there? I can see where they might be, but I can't tell if they actually are) are a form of "secret turbocharger" that has been made without compressor, turbine, cooling system or any means to recycle exhaust gases to drive the system. This "secret turbocharger" puts air into the engine where it is burned and then forces it - still pressurised - into the diffuser ...


Seems a bit far fetched... But remember that in 1994 and (1995?) the teams had to cut open the rear part of the engine cover in an effort to reduce HP. The idea was that the teams gained a few HP via the pressurized air in the airintake and if they had a opening at the rear they would loose the extra HP (kinda like the principle of supercharging where you make more HP by pressurizing the air intake). Benetton had a different profile to their engine cover/air intake for 1995 and was rumoured to not loose as much HP. Who was designer/engineer at Benetton in 1995? Brawn/Byrne!!!

1995


1994
Modern Lover
QUOTE (bonneville @ Feb 2 2010, 13:26) *
Fixed.



Very good. The whole livery and design looks a lot better imo.

up.gif
Timstr11
QUOTE (MiPe @ Feb 2 2010, 03:02) *
Have you noticed that tandem BAR-Honda actually hasn't accomplished much on the track until Ross came along? In my understanding they had left behind a facility in reasonable shape, but the car concept...? Never anything original which could produce results. There is no Honda's vehicle related technical heritage as far as I can see.

Don't get me started.

As a collective, the team has not functioned well and all credit to Brawn (and Nick, yes Nick Fry, for completely changing the technical leadership as of 2007) for turning it around.
But don't dismiss their IP, built up over several years in certain areas as useless. Otherwise Brawn would have nothing to work with (he's also not a designer like Newey) and Mercedes would have bought an empty shell.
The core of leading designers currently at the team arrived before Ross Brawn.

You say there's no Honda vehicle related technical heritage in the car?
I thought you were savvier technically. I have news for you. The IP and (human) engineering resources Mercedes bought into is probably worth more than all the fancy tools they have.
Unless you believe Ross Brawn brought the IP and engineers with him.

The reasons why it did not work under Honda is because their aero department sucked as well as their engine.
They couldn't do much for the engine due to the freeze.
The big changes in the aero department started in 2007 with a huge influx of new talented aerodynamicists from various teams, of which we are seeing the fruits now.
Add Ross Brawn's excellent leadership and the Mercedes engine and you have a winning team.
DFV
QUOTE (KiloWatt @ Feb 1 2010, 21:59) *
What gearbox is the car using? Surely not the honda one anymore? Right? ambivalent.gif


I don't know the answer to that one but I do recall Brawn saying that last years car had been a compromize with the late arrival of the Merc engine and the mating of engine and gearbox had resulted in less than desireable CoG. This year will be different and I suspect they are still using their own gearbox but modified to suit the Merc engine and get a better CoG.
Captain Tightpants
QUOTE (DFV @ Feb 2 2010, 19:43) *
I don't know the answer to that one but I do recall Brawn saying that last years car had been a compromize with the late arrival of the Merc engine and the mating of engine and gearbox had resulted in less than desireable CoG. This year will be different and I suspect they are still using their own gearbox but modified to suit the Merc engine and get a better CoG.

I think the problem with last year had more to do with the shape of the engine bay than actually mating the gearbox to the engine. After all, the car was designed around the Honda engine, and the Mercedes was a last-minute addition.
undersquare
QUOTE (Timstr11 @ Feb 2 2010, 08:30) *
Don't get me started.

As a collective, the team has not functioned well and all credit to Brawn (and Nick, yes Nick Fry, for completely changing the technical leadership as of 2007) for turning it around.The big changes in the aero department started in 2007 with a huge influx of new talented aerodynamicists from various teams, of which we are seeing the fruits now.
Add Ross Brawn's excellent leadership and the Mercedes engine and you have a winning team.


Well Nick Fry was a constant across old and new, and supposedly was responsible for the bad organisation pre-Brawn. Conflicts between windtunnel teams, decisions handed down and so on. It was his cr*p show. Not to say he was supposed to be the guy getting sponsorship and never brought in a single sponsor.

There must have been a reason why Ross kept him but I have no idea what it was. Fry's reason for bringing Ross in was survival, and a very obvious decision that didn't exactly require a lot of insight.
DFV
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Feb 2 2010, 09:46) *
I think the problem with last year had more to do with the shape of the engine bay than actually mating the gearbox to the engine. After all, the car was designed around the Honda engine, and the Mercedes was a last-minute addition.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80106

QUOTE
Brawn believes that heading into a second season with Mercedes - this time with a rear end designed around the German manufacturer's engine – will help strengthen the team's bid to retain its titles.

"The main thing for us is that it’s the second year of working with Mercedes," said Brawn.

"It should be a much better installation because we've had an opportunity to begin early and have the sort of exhaust system that we need, design the gearbox properly for the engine, design the chassis properly for the engine, put the right coolers on... all of those things.

"Obviously we've had a good run into installing this engine in the car, so things like the cooling system and the airbox have been developed a bit more thoroughly in the new car.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79688

QUOTE
"The car is too heavy, the centre of gravity is too high, and there are things which are not good on the car which will be fixed for next year. You can't put an engine in a car in six weeks when it normally takes six months, without making some compromises."
Sakae
QUOTE (Timstr11 @ Feb 2 2010, 03:30) *
Add Ross Brawn's excellent leadership and the Mercedes engine and you have a winning team.
No argument from me, but subject matter was focus on question what's left from the former BAR/Honda team?

There is a new engine.

Gearbox? I am not sure what's left of the one used with Honda engine, as it had to be probably modified to match Merc's unit.

Body? Seems all new.

HR? Well, perhaps, but I am frankly not sure what Nick Fry did in one year, as you suggest, that he didn't manage to do in several previous ones; undisputed fact is, things has changed only when Honda Japan and Nick stepped back, and Ross took over. I know he is not AN design type (see my post from about a month ago precisely on that point), but he has enough savvy to set direction he wants to take, just as MS will do on further changes on his car. They will not perform computations, but they will know what matters. Is this perhaps the major change in 2008/2009? I am continue to struggle to find anything of substance for which we could give Honda Japan technical credit for achieving 2009 WCC.
Seanspeed
Scary when you think that the Brawn last year was a 'compromised' car. stoned.gif

I've a feeling they'll be very strong this year. Right now, it seems Mclaren and Ferrari are getting all the talk, but underestimating the Mercedes is probably a big mistake.
salamin
Looks like Rosberg is running with a serious fuel load - lapping in the 1m16s right now
7 minutes ago by Edd Straw
Galko877
QUOTE (Seanspeed @ Feb 2 2010, 15:41) *
Scary when you think that the Brawn last year was a 'compromised' car. stoned.gif

I've a feeling they'll be very strong this year. Right now, it seems Mclaren and Ferrari are getting all the talk, but underestimating the Mercedes is probably a big mistake.


Hopefully you are right. I'm keeping my hopes alive by thinking back of 2004 when Ferrari didn't look any special in pre-season testing, in fact it was Renault and McLaren taking the headlines mostly. Then in the last week of testing: bang, the Ferrari showed its real pace and shocked everybody - and this proved to be the true picture through the season. And it was a certain Ross Brawn at charge in that team.....
SeanValen
up.gif

The good old winter testing days in the forums over the last 10 years and the classic term
SANDBAGGING

Michael was sandbanging yesterday, he had a 3 second cushion easy
Massa was running on fumes.

Classic mind games. biggrin.gif When you think you know something in f1 testing like Prost's awesome winter test times of 2001, you truely know nothing when they bomb in the season and the fast lap was awesome PR energy combined with low fuel hybrid oils to produce the maximum marketing super collection fast bucket turbo our reputation is secure buddy flanker lap!!!!!!!! smoking.gif

up.gif
peroa
QUOTE (Galko877 @ Feb 2 2010, 15:32) *
Hopefully you are right. I'm keeping my hopes alive by thinking back of 2004 when Ferrari didn't look any special in pre-season testing, in fact it was Renault and McLaren taking the headlines mostly. Then in the last week of testing: bang, the Ferrari showed its real pace and shocked everybody - and this proved to be the true picture through the season. And it was a certain Ross Brawn at charge in that team.....


... and it was mostly down to the BS tyres.
Galko877
QUOTE (peroa @ Feb 2 2010, 17:46) *
... and it was mostly down to the BS tyres.



This time it could be down to Merc's new diffuser.... wink.gif
Snuggie
QUOTE
We have just learned, the Mercedes uses the front wing and diffuser of last season. This may explain the poor performance of Nico Rosberg.

source: www.f1-direct.com via Google translate
Timstr11
QUOTE (Snuggie @ Feb 2 2010, 16:14) *
source: www.f1-direct.com via Google translate

That's easy to see actually. We won't seem them until Bahrain I think.

I'm sure Mclaren and Ferrari will have updates as well, but Mercedes is running an old diffuser.
Ferrari and Mac are running new diffusers.
Question is, who will make the bigger step with an update?
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