Good looking images.
BTW do you think that nick will do better than Michael at this very moment? I do think so actually.
Full Version: Mercedes GP - the 2010 Silver Arrows (Merged)
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QUOTE (One @ Mar 19 2010, 09:24) 
Good looking images.
BTW do you think that nick will do better than Michael at this very moment? I do think so actually.
BTW do you think that nick will do better than Michael at this very moment? I do think so actually.
I don't - not after that single race.
Nico is an optimist for sure. But I do expect the Mercedes team to gain some ground with their new package. If they can gain .5sec by the Europe races, they will be in a good position. If Mercedes can improve their qualifying pace, which isn't that far off, they will be sitting much better in the race.
same here. i dont believe Nico at all, he is a great talent and a guy but he just hopes too much IMO. Like when the tests were, he said "yeah yeah were up in front and we can win" while Michael said that they cant win in the beginning and it is good to score good points from the beginning. He is just too optimistic. and what i found also interesting was after qualifying when Nico gave interview to RTL he said that he is disappointed and he hoped for pole, wtf you are 1.1 off the pace and he hoped for pole??? like i said, too optimistic
QUOTE (soca @ Mar 19 2010, 12:33)
and what i found also interesting was after qualifying when Nico gave interview to RTL he said that he is disappointed and he hoped for pole, wtf you are 1.1 off the pace and he hoped for pole??? like i said, too optimistic
Statement based on FP impressions, they were not 1.1 off the pace. That's why he had expected a better result.
I am pleased that Ross came out assuring their fans, that whilst battle was lost at Bahrain, war is not over yet; at least it puts me at peace for next little while. Maybe I am hearing what I wanted to hear, but for now I can live with that. 
I am assumingthat the team now has more money available that is coming from Mclaren. I do think that the Dym/Merc will not out spend Ferrari nor Mclaren for the development war. I do not think that They will bombard the car with new experimental ideas. rather, It will be more or less seeing through the initial plan that Ross drafted for this year and completing it.
Sounds boring? But it is Ross Brawn, so, it make much more sense to do it that way, ...
Sounds boring? But it is Ross Brawn, so, it make much more sense to do it that way, ...
QUOTE (DMatt001 @ Mar 19 2010, 14:17)
QUOTE (maccaFTW @ Mar 18 2010, 12:23)
Just curious....
Are there any other McLaren fans who have adopted Mercedes as their "B" favorite team? I know that I certainly fall into this category.;)
Are there any other McLaren fans who have adopted Mercedes as their "B" favorite team? I know that I certainly fall into this category.;)
I'd say I'm on the category too ;)
Mercedes hoping for better results in challenging Albert Park
Nico Rosberg
"The Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne has always been a successful race for me. I have been in the points for my last three races and had my first podium finish there in 2008 when I finished third. Melbourne is a great city so I really enjoy visiting and the Albert Park street circuit is exciting. It's quite a challenging track as the public roads are always dirty to begin with and there are a lot of bumps to negotiate. With the change in the time of the race last year, the low sun was one of the most difficult things due to the late afternoon start."
Michael Schumacher
"Australia has always been one of the highlights on the Formula One calendar and this has never changed for me in all my years of competing. As in previous times, I arrived on the continent quite early and have spent some nice days training, adapting and relaxing in order to be fit and rested for the race weekend. I have a lot of good memories from Melbourne and most of the time, we saw interesting races there. I am very happy with the outcome of the season opener in Bahrain. Sixth position was good for me, especially considering how few times I have driven an F1 car since my retirement. I am sure that Melbourne will help me to get into the rhythm even more and I am looking forward to it."
Ross Brawn
"The team did a good job in Bahrain but we accept that we were not competitive enough and that we have work to do to close the gap to the leaders. I was very pleased with the performance of Nico and Michael and the way that they worked together to provide clear and consistent feedback to develop the car over the weekend. Whilst our car is fundamentally strong, we have a development plan in place for the next few races which should bring the required performance improvements to compete at the front. Looking ahead to the next two races, the Australian Grand Prix is always a popular race with the teams and the fans so we hope to see a more exciting race at Albert Park next weekend. We then head to Malaysia for the home race of our title partner PETRONAS. With an exciting programme of activities scheduled at the PETRONAS Pit Pulse fan zone in Kuala Lumpur, it will be a busy and enjoyable fortnight for the team."
Norbert Haug
"The forthcoming Australian Grand Prix at Melbourne's Albert Park is the first of two races within eight days. The layout of the traditional race track in Melbourne, which will host its 15th Formula One World Championship race since 1996, is quite different to Bahrain where the season-opener took place. I expect quite a challenging race for us. The base of our car is good and the team is working hard and focused to achieve the next development steps. It will take some time to close the gap but we will definitely close it sooner rather than later. Our spirit is first-class and the whole team is looking forward to the race weekend in Melbourne."
http://www.f1technical.net/news/14431 so am i
Nico Rosberg
"The Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne has always been a successful race for me. I have been in the points for my last three races and had my first podium finish there in 2008 when I finished third. Melbourne is a great city so I really enjoy visiting and the Albert Park street circuit is exciting. It's quite a challenging track as the public roads are always dirty to begin with and there are a lot of bumps to negotiate. With the change in the time of the race last year, the low sun was one of the most difficult things due to the late afternoon start."
Michael Schumacher
"Australia has always been one of the highlights on the Formula One calendar and this has never changed for me in all my years of competing. As in previous times, I arrived on the continent quite early and have spent some nice days training, adapting and relaxing in order to be fit and rested for the race weekend. I have a lot of good memories from Melbourne and most of the time, we saw interesting races there. I am very happy with the outcome of the season opener in Bahrain. Sixth position was good for me, especially considering how few times I have driven an F1 car since my retirement. I am sure that Melbourne will help me to get into the rhythm even more and I am looking forward to it."
Ross Brawn
"The team did a good job in Bahrain but we accept that we were not competitive enough and that we have work to do to close the gap to the leaders. I was very pleased with the performance of Nico and Michael and the way that they worked together to provide clear and consistent feedback to develop the car over the weekend. Whilst our car is fundamentally strong, we have a development plan in place for the next few races which should bring the required performance improvements to compete at the front. Looking ahead to the next two races, the Australian Grand Prix is always a popular race with the teams and the fans so we hope to see a more exciting race at Albert Park next weekend. We then head to Malaysia for the home race of our title partner PETRONAS. With an exciting programme of activities scheduled at the PETRONAS Pit Pulse fan zone in Kuala Lumpur, it will be a busy and enjoyable fortnight for the team."
Norbert Haug
"The forthcoming Australian Grand Prix at Melbourne's Albert Park is the first of two races within eight days. The layout of the traditional race track in Melbourne, which will host its 15th Formula One World Championship race since 1996, is quite different to Bahrain where the season-opener took place. I expect quite a challenging race for us. The base of our car is good and the team is working hard and focused to achieve the next development steps. It will take some time to close the gap but we will definitely close it sooner rather than later. Our spirit is first-class and the whole team is looking forward to the race weekend in Melbourne."
http://www.f1technical.net/news/14431 so am i
QUOTE (rodlamas @ Mar 19 2010, 16:53)
I'd say I'm on the category too ;)
I expect that to last up to the point where Mercedes starts beating McLaren. From then on it'll be
Three pages fresh discussion about MGP car: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic...4&start=720
Ok, I rewatched the race last weekend and made following observations in regard to Michael, especially from the onboard camera views:
- Initially MS wasn't good with his gear changes. He often revved it into the limiter, especially in the higher gears and most notably on the S/F straight. Shouldn't hurt the laptimes much but it could put additional stress on the engine. However he got it better and better throughout the race.
- His rear suspension was extremely stiff, much stiffer for example than Button's. Buttons suspension was moving all the time while you couldn't see barely any movement from MS's suspension. Main reason was probably to get more front end grip bias thus making the car turn in better. This seemed to work quite well in low speed corners like T16 and T18 but less so in corners with higher speeds and more aerodynamic influence like T20 where he often missed the apex.
- MS was quite late on the throttle when accelerating out of corners. Whether that was because of lack of rear end grip (see last point) or because he has to "re-learn" his speed I don't know. Perhaps both. I think that was what hampered him most in respect to laptimes. He often was several meters later on the throttle than other drivers and IMHO lost massively there.
- Where he excelled was on the brakes. When you compare the braking points at a certain time of the race he was much later on the brakes than Webber, Massa or Hamilton, for instance while braking for T1 and T22 (the last corner). What I don't know and cannot judge how much influence that had on getting on the throttle earlier or later.
- Initially MS wasn't good with his gear changes. He often revved it into the limiter, especially in the higher gears and most notably on the S/F straight. Shouldn't hurt the laptimes much but it could put additional stress on the engine. However he got it better and better throughout the race.
- His rear suspension was extremely stiff, much stiffer for example than Button's. Buttons suspension was moving all the time while you couldn't see barely any movement from MS's suspension. Main reason was probably to get more front end grip bias thus making the car turn in better. This seemed to work quite well in low speed corners like T16 and T18 but less so in corners with higher speeds and more aerodynamic influence like T20 where he often missed the apex.
- MS was quite late on the throttle when accelerating out of corners. Whether that was because of lack of rear end grip (see last point) or because he has to "re-learn" his speed I don't know. Perhaps both. I think that was what hampered him most in respect to laptimes. He often was several meters later on the throttle than other drivers and IMHO lost massively there.
- Where he excelled was on the brakes. When you compare the braking points at a certain time of the race he was much later on the brakes than Webber, Massa or Hamilton, for instance while braking for T1 and T22 (the last corner). What I don't know and cannot judge how much influence that had on getting on the throttle earlier or later.
thanks you both Ivan and Uwe, very interesting information.
QUOTE (Uwe @ Mar 22 2010, 07:03)
Ok, I rewatched the race last weekend and made following observations in regard to Michael, especially from the onboard camera views:
- Initially MS wasn't good with his gear changes. He often revved it into the limiter, especially in the higher gears and most notably on the S/F straight. Shouldn't hurt the laptimes much but it could put additional stress on the engine. However he got it better and better throughout the race.
- His rear suspension was extremely stiff, much stiffer for example than Button's. Buttons suspension was moving all the time while you couldn't see barely any movement from MS's suspension. Main reason was probably to get more front end grip bias thus making the car turn in better. This seemed to work quite well in low speed corners like T16 and T18 but less so in corners with higher speeds and more aerodynamic influence like T20 where he often missed the apex.
- MS was quite late on the throttle when accelerating out of corners. Whether that was because of lack of rear end grip (see last point) or because he has to "re-learn" his speed I don't know. Perhaps both. I think that was what hampered him most in respect to laptimes. He often was several meters later on the throttle than other drivers and IMHO lost massively there.
- Where he excelled was on the brakes. When you compare the braking points at a certain time of the race he was much later on the brakes than Webber, Massa or Hamilton, for instance while braking for T1 and T22 (the last corner). What I don't know and cannot judge how much influence that had on getting on the throttle earlier or later.
How is defined relationship "braking late, and getting on the throttle quickly", while in the corner? I do remember that Alain Prost used to say that he liked slower entry speed, which permitted him to exit faster. Layman (like me) would assume that when you break late, consequently you carry more speed, and unless you wish to punish tires, you have to nurse it through to avoid slide. I am not trying to imply that Michael couldn't get on the throttle earlier, but I guess there is some balance between set up, and a driving style which Michael is probably still exploring, and if he can cut that interval down, I hope that he will.- Initially MS wasn't good with his gear changes. He often revved it into the limiter, especially in the higher gears and most notably on the S/F straight. Shouldn't hurt the laptimes much but it could put additional stress on the engine. However he got it better and better throughout the race.
- His rear suspension was extremely stiff, much stiffer for example than Button's. Buttons suspension was moving all the time while you couldn't see barely any movement from MS's suspension. Main reason was probably to get more front end grip bias thus making the car turn in better. This seemed to work quite well in low speed corners like T16 and T18 but less so in corners with higher speeds and more aerodynamic influence like T20 where he often missed the apex.
- MS was quite late on the throttle when accelerating out of corners. Whether that was because of lack of rear end grip (see last point) or because he has to "re-learn" his speed I don't know. Perhaps both. I think that was what hampered him most in respect to laptimes. He often was several meters later on the throttle than other drivers and IMHO lost massively there.
- Where he excelled was on the brakes. When you compare the braking points at a certain time of the race he was much later on the brakes than Webber, Massa or Hamilton, for instance while braking for T1 and T22 (the last corner). What I don't know and cannot judge how much influence that had on getting on the throttle earlier or later.
QUOTE (MiPe @ Mar 22 2010, 13:53)
How is defined relationship "braking late, and getting on the throttle quickly", while in the corner? I do remember that Alain Prost used to say that he liked slower entry speed, which permitted him to exit faster. Layman (like me) would assume that when you break late, consequently you carry more speed, and unless you wish to punish tires, you have to nurse it through to avoid slide. I am not trying to imply that Michael couldn't get on the throttle earlier, but I guess there is some balance between set up, and a driving style which Michael is probably still exploring, and if he can cut that interval down, I hope that he will.
When you are braking late you often have to turn in while still on the brakes which makes the car unstable, especially with a stiff rear suspension. You could see that in the latter parts of the race when Schumacher was on the prime tyres and had some little slides at the end of the S/F straight when braking for T1. (You could hear it as well by the engine noise - it dropped faster thus indicating the rear tyres had lost their firm connection to the road.) Before he could get on the throttle again he had to wait until the car settled from that slide.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
QUOTE (ivand911 @ Mar 22 2010, 16:01)
Time and again I promiss myself to not ever open a link from planetf1 again and I failed once more... *sigh*.. I never learn.
i love the secret diary though it's not MS! 
QUOTE (Uwe @ Mar 22 2010, 09:28)
When you are braking late you often have to turn in while still on the brakes which makes the car unstable, especially with a stiff rear suspension. You could see that in the latter parts of the race when Schumacher was on the prime tyres and had some little slides at the end of the S/F straight when braking for T1. (You could hear it as well by the engine noise - it dropped faster thus indicating the rear tyres had lost their firm connection to the road.) Before he could get on the throttle again he had to wait until the car settled from that slide.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
Thanks Uwe; interesting.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
QUOTE (Uwe @ Mar 22 2010, 13:28)
When you are braking late you often have to turn in while still on the brakes which makes the car unstable, especially with a stiff rear suspension. You could see that in the latter parts of the race when Schumacher was on the prime tyres and had some little slides at the end of the S/F straight when braking for T1. (You could hear it as well by the engine noise - it dropped faster thus indicating the rear tyres had lost their firm connection to the road.) Before he could get on the throttle again he had to wait until the car settled from that slide.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
schumacher doesnt use the throttle like you think go watch teh driving style documentary on youtube.
QUOTE (arknor @ Mar 22 2010, 11:33)
schumacher doesnt use the throttle like you think go watch teh driving style documentary on youtube.
Can you then elaborate, please?
My, my. We might as well change the name of this thread to:
Schumacher GP - the 2010 Silver Arrows
Schumacher GP - the 2010 Silver Arrows
I thought about opening M Schu thread, but on second thought I disposed of it, because it shall become repository for all kind of stuff I don't want to discuss it anymore.
... yet his driving style v. car is racing related..., isn't it?
... yet his driving style v. car is racing related..., isn't it?
Just like I said, when your driving style fits the car you are almost unbeatable. We all know Schumi is struggling with understeer, and he prefers neutral/oversteery car. That's why Rosberg is better currently. He'll need few races to sort those problems, but I'm confident he will along with Brawn's help of course.
It's not like Ferrari's years when the car was built for Schumi.
That's why Hamilton will beat Button.
That's why Kimi lost to Massa in 2008 - strange development change mid season and Ferrari lost their WDC.
I am not bashing Schumi, he is one of the greatest.
I just used this as a proof.
It's not like Ferrari's years when the car was built for Schumi.
That's why Hamilton will beat Button.
That's why Kimi lost to Massa in 2008 - strange development change mid season and Ferrari lost their WDC.
I am not bashing Schumi, he is one of the greatest.
I just used this as a proof.
QUOTE (MiPe @ Mar 22 2010, 17:21)
I thought about opening M Schu thread, but on second thought I disposed of it, because it shall become repository for all kind of stuff I don't want to discuss it anymore.
... yet his driving style v. car is racing related..., isn't it?
... yet his driving style v. car is racing related..., isn't it?
It's really gets annoying. At least put the Schumacher themed posts in the Rosberg verses Schumacher thread.
QUOTE (Uwe @ Mar 22 2010, 13:28)
When you are braking late you often have to turn in while still on the brakes which makes the car unstable, especially with a stiff rear suspension. You could see that in the latter parts of the race when Schumacher was on the prime tyres and had some little slides at the end of the S/F straight when braking for T1. (You could hear it as well by the engine noise - it dropped faster thus indicating the rear tyres had lost their firm connection to the road.) Before he could get on the throttle again he had to wait until the car settled from that slide.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
My guess is, a part of the 'late throttle' thing is simply reprogramming himself not to apply the throttle digitally - simply on or off - but to apply half throttle inmidst the corner and to get fully on out of the corner. Which BTW was a thing you could see with Massa's cornering style - he was smoother on the throttle than Michael and often already before the corner apex. Don't forget MS wasn't racing for three years, he has to get into it again.
Another thing is he has to check if a softer rear suspension might not be faster. It will make the car more 'understeery' but he will have more rear end grip and thus more traction out of corners. But this is wild speculation on my side.
Also the last F1 cars he drove had Traction control which this one doesn't, then there's the slicks to get used to, the extra fuel, there are more things against him then just the three years out. The merc is competitive, I just think that it's a very competitive year and we'll see the order change throughout the season with some cars working better at different tracks. (I expect the Red Bull to dominate up to Barcelona though that depends on it's reliability.)
I concur with those posters who suggest moving Schumacher specific discussion to another thread, whether new or existing. Please keep this thread for the car and car development.
If there isn't a thread already open for what you want to discuss, and it's not part of a technical discussion about the car, start a thread.
If there isn't a thread already open for what you want to discuss, and it's not part of a technical discussion about the car, start a thread.
BILD says the team continued to work on the right (aero)balance since Melbourne.
They achieved a loss of weight at the front, which can be put to the rear now.
A new front wing is also on the way for Melbourne, according to RTL.
They achieved a loss of weight at the front, which can be put to the rear now.
A new front wing is also on the way for Melbourne, according to RTL.
QUOTE (Rambazamba @ Mar 23 2010, 13:13)
BILD says the team continued to work on the right (aero)balance since Melbourne.
They achieved a loss of weight at the front, which can be put to the rear now.
A new front wing is also on the way for Melbourne, according to RTL.
They achieved a loss of weight at the front, which can be put to the rear now.
A new front wing is also on the way for Melbourne, according to RTL.
Sounds good to me. Lets hope it's true.
Thank you for the info!
I think in the moment they are trying to make the nose narrow, because from original design it was the widest. This is easiest way to lose weight in the front. Because to put weight in the back, they need to lose at the front. Because car is to heavy(they can't just put ballast in the back). I don't know how much they can change the nose without changing the tube. Also this include new front suspension and maybe front tires moved to the front. To make longer wheelbase. New "lighter"? front wing maybe will be only difference for Melbourne. If the car is light in the back, rear tires are not up to temperature(cold)? Where front tires are over the temperature(hot). Lets hope with changes in Melbourne MGP can fight for podium. Hope the weather will be changeable.
"We still have some work to adjust the car and my driving style so that it also views it goes around the corner, as I imagine," judged Schumacher after the race in the desert. Team Principal Ross Brawn knows the greatest evil: "Our car has too little weight on the rear." . Now, it would actually be easy to grab the MGP W001 a few extra weights to the tail. Apparently the silver arrow is generally too heavy. Furthermore, the time between races for major developments is too short, especially since the use of cars were shipped directly from the desert in Australia. "
"We still have some work to adjust the car and my driving style so that it also views it goes around the corner, as I imagine," judged Schumacher after the race in the desert. Team Principal Ross Brawn knows the greatest evil: "Our car has too little weight on the rear." . Now, it would actually be easy to grab the MGP W001 a few extra weights to the tail. Apparently the silver arrow is generally too heavy. Furthermore, the time between races for major developments is too short, especially since the use of cars were shipped directly from the desert in Australia. "
QUOTE (Rambazamba @ Mar 23 2010, 08:13)
BILD says the team continued to work on the right (aero)balance since Melbourne.
They achieved a loss of weight at the front, which can be put to the rear now.
A new front wing is also on the way for Melbourne, according to RTL.
They achieved a loss of weight at the front, which can be put to the rear now.
A new front wing is also on the way for Melbourne, according to RTL.
Interesting info. It seems Mercedes is leading in terms of upgrades being brought to the 2nd race, with Mclaren following close behind.
QUOTE (rodlamas @ Mar 23 2010, 14:34)
Interesting info. It seems Mercedes is leading in terms of upgrades being brought to the 2nd race, with Mclaren following close behind.
Leading? Their front wing alomst didn't changed since begining of the winter testing. It's about time to bring new front wing. I wouldn't call this leading.
Totally agree with you korzeniow
I´m really amazed by Brawn/Mercedes.
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
QUOTE (Mclaren4ever @ Mar 23 2010, 14:34)
I´m really amazed by Brawn/Mercedes.
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
Are they really doing something wrong or is the other teams that are doing better things?
That's the point.
Maybe last years Brawn just wasn't as amazing as people seem to think. IMO the Red Bull was the class act anyway. Brawn/Button had consistency and reliability while Red Bull/Vettel lost points through driver errors and reliability problems.
The DNA of both cars comes through this year so while I am a little surprised that Mercedes appeared to be so far behind in Bahrain I don't think the fact they are not top of the pile is.
Where do they think the car is lacking, technically? Is it still weight distribution?
The DNA of both cars comes through this year so while I am a little surprised that Mercedes appeared to be so far behind in Bahrain I don't think the fact they are not top of the pile is.
Where do they think the car is lacking, technically? Is it still weight distribution?
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Mar 23 2010, 18:37)
Are they really doing something wrong or is the other teams that are doing better things?
That's the point.
That's the point.
I don´t know. They were obviously caught by McLaren and Red Bull in the seconds half of last year.
Nonetheless they developed a car that is very conservative (because of a lack of money?)
The sidepods and the cooling openings of last years Brawn were great, this year the sidpods are just fat, not undercut and the openings are huge if we compare that to McLaren with the same engine
Their front end concept with that nose works also not very well it seems. The peak is obviously a wrong calculated weight distribution from day 1 .
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 23 2010, 20:45)
Maybe last years Brawn just wasn't as amazing as people seem to think. IMO the Red Bull was the class act anyway. Brawn/Button had consistency and reliability while Red Bull/Vettel lost points through driver errors and reliability problems.
The DNA of both cars comes through this year so while I am a little surprised that Mercedes appeared to be so far behind in Bahrain I don't think the fact they are not top of the pile is.
Where do they think the car is lacking, technically? Is it still weight distribution?
The DNA of both cars comes through this year so while I am a little surprised that Mercedes appeared to be so far behind in Bahrain I don't think the fact they are not top of the pile is.
Where do they think the car is lacking, technically? Is it still weight distribution?
IMO Brawn was THE car to have in the first part of 2009. Later it switched to Red Bull as they developed better, but by then it was too late and Button's advantage was too big.
There is nothing surprising in it IMO. Brawn's advantage, now it seems, was mainly in the DD trick (which is completely lost now), while Red Bull's wasn't.
QUOTE (Mclaren4ever @ Mar 23 2010, 13:34)
I´m really amazed by Brawn/Mercedes.
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
It has just been once race so far. I don't think they are that far back. Look how good the Mclaren was at the end of the season last year, possibly better than the Brawn and Red Bull, but now it's back there with Mercedes as well. Give it a few more races before we can really see how the season is going to play out.
QUOTE (Mclaren4ever @ Mar 23 2010, 18:34)
I´m really amazed by Brawn/Mercedes.
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
When was the last time a team went that wrong with the successor of a championship car under stable aerodynamic rules?
What about Renault, R26 was an excellent car, but R27 was a shit.
Btw, Bahrain was the first race; you should stay calm and see what happen during the season, don’t you?
QUOTE (Galko877 @ Mar 23 2010, 17:53)
IMO Brawn was THE car to have in the first part of 2009. Later it switched to Red Bull as they developed better, but by then it was too late and Button's advantage was too big.
There is nothing surprising in it IMO. Brawn's advantage, now it seems, was mainly in the DD trick (which is completely lost now), while Red Bull's wasn't.
There is nothing surprising in it IMO. Brawn's advantage, now it seems, was mainly in the DD trick (which is completely lost now), while Red Bull's wasn't.
+1
QUOTE (Galko877 @ Mar 23 2010, 13:53)
IMO Brawn was THE car to have in the first part of 2009. Later it switched to Red Bull as they developed better, but by then it was too late and Button's advantage was too big.
There is nothing surprising in it IMO. Brawn's advantage, now it seems, was mainly in the DD trick (which is completely lost now), while Red Bull's wasn't.
There is nothing surprising in it IMO. Brawn's advantage, now it seems, was mainly in the DD trick (which is completely lost now), while Red Bull's wasn't.
Exactly my thoughts already last year. Had BGP had lost the decision regarding DD legality, then I don't think there was WDC for Button in 2009, because without it last year contender was pretty average car. Looking back at 2008, I didn't detect any signs that (ex)Honda is on treshold of greatness, especially when they had to write whole season off. This is why I was concerned already during pre-season testing that their track-times were rather fuzzy, and suspicion that not all is well was growing by an hour. We will see what future holds, but one thing is for sure, MGP, including Michael, have their work cut out for them.
_______
I wonder if JB suspected the same, which was his reason for leaving the team, just as RB knew that, and that's why he has hired Michael to help them with development? Perhaps all wild speculation on my part, but still, who knows?
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 23 2010, 17:45)
Maybe last years Brawn just wasn't as amazing as people seem to think. IMO the Red Bull was the class act anyway. Brawn/Button had consistency and reliability while Red Bull/Vettel lost points through driver errors and reliability problems.
The DNA of both cars comes through this year so while I am a little surprised that Mercedes appeared to be so far behind in Bahrain I don't think the fact they are not top of the pile is.
Where do they think the car is lacking, technically? Is it still weight distribution?
The DNA of both cars comes through this year so while I am a little surprised that Mercedes appeared to be so far behind in Bahrain I don't think the fact they are not top of the pile is.
Where do they think the car is lacking, technically? Is it still weight distribution?
Its advantage clearly was the double difuser
QUOTE (Yorkie @ Mar 24 2010, 13:43)
Its advantage clearly was the double difuser
Two other teams had those so the advantage was clearly brought to it by more than that.
QUOTE
Mercedes
Strangely Mercedes seem to be behind the curve on adjusting to the new tyres. As the W01 does not seem to have the same levels of grip and balance, as its rivals. A continuing belief is that the car carries to much weight, too far forward in the chassis. While it’s true that the Mercedes still carries its huge slab of ballast in the front splitter, switching to a more rearwards weight split is relatively easy. It’s certainly easier to shift weight backwards than forwards, as there is more space around the gearbox for ballast. So perhaps the problem is the front to rear aero split, which tends to be a few percent off the weight split. Creating more rear downforce, costs drag if done with the rear wing, so a more powerful diffuser is required. One option is that the cars created the ideal weight balance and matches its aero with less total downforce but a correct split front to rear. If these are indeed the problems then the car will need a new floor and front aero to correct the issue. This will probably take until Spain certainly china at the earliest. this issue resolved I can see no weakness in the car that prevent it taking race wins, it will just be that several races have passed by and their rivals championship leads will be extended. \Melbourne may not suit the car with its dependence on front end grip, the team may have some workarounds, but it’s likely its Spain they are most looking forward to.
Strangely Mercedes seem to be behind the curve on adjusting to the new tyres. As the W01 does not seem to have the same levels of grip and balance, as its rivals. A continuing belief is that the car carries to much weight, too far forward in the chassis. While it’s true that the Mercedes still carries its huge slab of ballast in the front splitter, switching to a more rearwards weight split is relatively easy. It’s certainly easier to shift weight backwards than forwards, as there is more space around the gearbox for ballast. So perhaps the problem is the front to rear aero split, which tends to be a few percent off the weight split. Creating more rear downforce, costs drag if done with the rear wing, so a more powerful diffuser is required. One option is that the cars created the ideal weight balance and matches its aero with less total downforce but a correct split front to rear. If these are indeed the problems then the car will need a new floor and front aero to correct the issue. This will probably take until Spain certainly china at the earliest. this issue resolved I can see no weakness in the car that prevent it taking race wins, it will just be that several races have passed by and their rivals championship leads will be extended. \Melbourne may not suit the car with its dependence on front end grip, the team may have some workarounds, but it’s likely its Spain they are most looking forward to.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/a...hnical-preview/
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 24 2010, 15:47)
Two other teams had those so the advantage was clearly brought to it by more than that.
Agreed. The thought that last year's car was in any way average is not correct by my book; remember, last year it was winning races as late as Valencia and Monza, by which time Red Bull had their DD sorted. Was it the best car? Probably not, but it was a pretty useful one. Even in the last race of the season it was giving the car most people consider the best (the RB5) a run for its money.
Time will tell whether this year's car will improve into a contender, but I think it's pretty dangerous to write them off on the strength of a single race at the start of the season. Red Bull had the advantage of a pretty stable 2009 to build an excellent car (Brawn/Merc had to shed about 1/3 of their staff in March) and McLaren and Ferrari were able to start their 2010 cars a lot earlier due to being out of the championship race, so it isn't really all that surprising that Merc have slipped a little. In my opinion, the real indication of how good or bad the 2010 car will come in the first three or four races when we see what all the upgrades bring.
QUOTE (Yorkie @ Mar 24 2010, 09:43)
Its advantage clearly was the double difuser
Every team had new diffusers in Turkey, and yet Button was 0.5 s / lap quicker than Red Bull. Brawn were unstoppable when the track temp was over 40, but struggled when temps were under 30.
QUOTE (rodfarva @ Mar 24 2010, 20:49)
Every team had new diffusers in Turkey, and yet Button was 0.5 s / lap quicker than Red Bull. Brawn were unstoppable when the track temp was over 40, but struggled when temps were under 30.
Because designing car around DDD is the same as you just putting DDD into car with diffrent concept... Geez
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