you are wrong its just a name and ownership change its not new ENTRY

So it wil be MCL 1 and 2 ( but only if Butt signs), than Mercedes 3 and 4, than Red Bull 5 and 6 etcetera....

are you crazy?

Stewart WDC in 1973, no Stewart in 1974 (peterson wore 1)

Mansell WDC in1992, no Mansell in 1993 (Hill wore 0)

Prost WDC in 1993, no Prost in 1994 (Hill wore 0)

Correct he is unofficial but mathematical. Button won WDC in Brazil mathematically, He won it in Abudhabi ceremonically and he will win it (most probably) on 11/28/2009 oficialy, because after that date all the results are sealed forever and cant be touched or revised.

So officially Button is still not WDC, because in theory you know DDD can be found illegal afterall and all DDD results nullified...

And the driver of NASCAR'S No. 13 car is funnily enough an ex-F1 man - Max Papis.

You know what's crazy? Allegedly 13 is not used because Masetti was killed using it in the 1920s.

But about the only numbers currently used in F1 that have NOT had a high profile death associated with them are 15 and 23, as far as I recall. And for the new teams 24, 25, 26 and 27 have also had their fair share of mortality. Why are all the others not barred from use?

It's always been a wonder to me that the number seventeen has been run in Italy. Buildings have no seventeenth storey, Alitalia flights have no aisle seventeen and the Renault 17 was sold as the Renault 117. The Argentine Minardi driver, Esteban Tureo, is notorious for refusing to run with the nubmers thirteen and seventeen because of their significance.

The superstition stems from the Roman form of the number: XVII. It's an anagram for the Latin word VIXI, which loosely translates as "I have seen" or "I have died". So I wonder what would happen if Ferrari had such a poor year that they had to run the sixteen and seventeen, or if a team with two Italian drivers was assigned through numbers ...

You do realize that the answer was given in the very same thread several posts before you question?

I'd like to see that.



The answer is in your own post. They didn't win the WDC or hire a WDC driver until Prost.

It's now a tradition not to use it, isn't it. Nobody's gonna break a tradition in order to gain the number 13.

Heh, I've never seen that explanation, it's fairly logical though. "Vixi" means "I have lived" (and analogous to 4 being similar to "death" in Japanese and Mandarin, hence Katayama bagging 3 when he was at Tyrrell, didn't bother Nakajima Sr though). Osella ran Larini with the number 17, so Italians squared. Biagio Nazzaro's first Grand Prix was with 17 on his Fiat...it was also his last...

OK, I'll never trust the Liverpool Daily Post again

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/...92534-25185304/

Unless you include Tony Brise's death in the crash of his team's plane.

Yeah, This has really peeved me off this year.
I Think the Mac's are the only cars to have numbers on there rear wings, and thats because they have the number 1.

I remember watching the cars at Albert Park this year and struggling to tell some drivers apart.

Would have thought there would be a rule to have a cars numbers displayed on the side some where so the crowd can see.

I thought the t bar red colour meant the team leader was driving?

Agreed. Car numbers should be more obvious. Especially as the stewards quote them rather than the drivers.

Not always the lead driver, but the driver with the lower number gets the red T-Bar, the other driver gets the yellow one.

Hmm ok ta

#13 has been used twice in F1 and the highest was #208.

The 2010 starting numbers should be as follows:

1 + 2 : McLaren, if Button indeed leaves Mercedes (if he stays: Mercedes)
3 + 4 : Mercedes, since the team won the WCC, albeit under the Brawn banner (if Button stays with Mercedes: Red Bull)
5 + 6 : Red Bull (if Button stays with Mercedes: McLaren)
7 + 8 : Ferrari
9 + 10 : Williams
11 + 12 : Renault
14 + 15 : Force India
16 + 17 : Toro Rosso
18 + 19 : Campos (1st new team on the FIA's July 2009 entry list)
20 + 21 : Manor / Virgin (2nd new team on the FIA's July 2009 entry list)
22 + 23 : US F1 (3rd new team on the FIA's July 2009 entry list)
24 + 25 : Lotus (new team after BMW Sauber's pull-out)
26 + 27 : Qadbak / Sauber (new team after BMW Sauber's and Toyota's pull-outs)

I remember to have read that if the WDC had retired, the winning team (not sure whether the WCC or WDC team) could take 1 & 2 and not necessarily 0 & 2. It was more out of respect and dignity that they use 0. Not sure where I heard it, but that was very long time ago, probably in 1994...

I forgot to include the word "lately" in my statement. Sure I know about the above. That was kind of the reason why we had the argument.

My mistake in not writing what I meant.

Vettel 2010 WDC, he'll get 5, not Webber, right?

IIRC, cars carrying the number 5 have more titles than any other number, except cars with number 1 and much thanks to Schumacher.

Vettel should be number 5 next year but I think the team decides what number the drivers have.

If you're talking about 1974, when JYS retired, Lotus got nº1 which was driven by Ronnie Peterson (also mentioned before on this thread.

I honestly don't recall McLaren ever having a car 0.

Fittipaldi left for Copersucar 1 year after his WDC
Hunt left for Wolf 3 years after his WDC
Lauda retired 1 year after his WDC
Prost left for Ferrari while WDC
Senna left for Williams 2 years after his WDC
Hakkinen retired 2 years after his last WDC
Hamilton is still with the team

Or was it a special ocasion?

Since Peter Sauber was an owner of BMW-Sauber and he retains his 20% ownership, wouldn't that mean that the team is not completely new, and should therefore not be considered the last team????

Corrected

It would be considered a new team - BMW Sauber did not sign the Concornde Agreement, therefore giving up the right to a grid postion. Sauber had to re-apply, effectively making them a new team. They'll be moved to the very back of the grid and carry the 26 and 27.


Not quite - aside from the aforementioned Sauber situation, Lotus will have the 24 and 25. This is because they are the newest of the new teams. Campos, Manor and USF1 were all accepted to the grid in June, but Lotus did not make it until August. With Sauber not being on the grid as yet, Lotus will get the penultimate numbering set.

The numbering will look like this:

1 + 2 : McLaren
3 + 4 : Mercedes
5 + 6 : Red Bull
7 + 8 : Ferrari
9 + 10 : Williams
11 + 12 : Renault
14 + 15 : Force India
16 + 17 : Toro Rosso
18 to 23 : Campos, Manor, USF1
24 + 25 : Lotus
26 + 27 : Sauber-QADBAK

I think we should just wait for the entry list to be released

Normally, I'd offer you a bet on this. However, I know I'm right, so you'd basically just giving me a twenty. The only thing that could change the nuberings would be if Renault withdrew and sold the team on - but they're currently being linked to a 40% sale to either the Russians or Ultimate Motorsport, which is not enough to warrant a change in team ownership.

You might not be right. Lets wait for the entry list to find out.

No, I am. This system is how the numbers have been awarded ever since the mid-90s: championship positions for current teams, and then new teams based on the order they join. The only unknown is how Campos, Manor and USF1 will be awarded the 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 - there has never been an instance of more than one team joining at the same time.

You might not be right about the Sauber team.

No, I am. Sauber are considered a new entry because they did not sign the Concorde Agreement. If BMW had signed it, they would have then been able to sell the team on to Sauber and Lotus would not be competing. They did not, and so Sauber had to re-do the selection process. If you read the literature (i.e. news articles), you'll see that the FIA declared them to be a new team. They will not get the 9 and 10 because they have no right to it. It's the 16 and 27 for them, and that will only change if Renault withdraw and sell the team after the official entry list is published.

Indeed. Though I think you mean 26 not 16

In the article about the sale of Sauber to Qadbak (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78655) it says

I mean that Sauber might not necessarely have 26/27, they could have 20/21, 22/23 or 24/25 depending on how they order the new teams.

It might be alphabetical, order of when they put the entry in or just random. You don't know how they order the new teams unless you work for the FIA.

Personally I think they should have 9/10 because they are the same team as BMW.

No they would be 26/27 or 28/29 dependant on Toyota's grid slot being sold. as they joined after the other three and are categorised as the 14th team.

Read my post.
I said
Just because they joined after the other 4 new teams doesn't necessarely mean they will have higher numbers.

Anyway, the way they number them is a bit silly, they should have the number they were ranked at the end of the previous year.
So Button would have no 1, Vettel no 2 etc

Maybe the team that commited first to f1 gets the first numbers after torro rosso (finished last in 2009) ?

The old system was actually better IMO, when only the WDC's team would switch numbers with the previous one.
That way numbers played a bigger role in the identity (and brand) of teams and drivers, which worked a lot better for the common viewer and for the fan.
In Nascar they're very much aware of this, sometimes teams even buy numbers from each other despite being owned by the series.

Couldn't agree more

For a start they should make the car's number visible again......

Yes it does.

Technically, they havent joined as their grid slot hasnt been accepted, and likely wont be until the FIA sorts out Toyota. So as it stands, next year Sauber's numbers will be ## and ##.

Jody Scheckter was entered as a third driver for McLaren on a couple of occasions in 1973, and ran with the number 0 then.

They haven't joined though, they are possibly being given the 14th slot on the grid, that slot comes with the lowest numbers.

QUOTE (MoebiusPT @ Nov 18 2009, 18:53)
I honestly don't recall McLaren ever having a car 0.

Just to expand a little, as I mentioned in another thread. Jody Scheckter drove the McLaren in both American and Canadian GP's of 1973 with 0, due to Emerson Fittipaldi recovering from injury. As Fittipaldi was the reigning champion, the team used 0 instead of 1.

Trivia. Mansell won his first race then (6 October 1985). Prost became France's first World Champ, and Watson finished 7th (after starting 21st).

Lauda had a wrist injury. Came back the next race.

He used to. Changed to 33 when he stepped up to MotoGP.