QUOTE (HarryReams @ Nov 19 2009, 12:02) 
How did they rank the drivers?
Rosberg, Glock and Vettel were at the top of the standings; all three drivers in the top 10. Honestly, only Vettel deserves to be in the top 5!
Full Version: Autosport's Top 10 Drivers of 2009
Rosberg, Glock and Vettel were at the top of the standings; all three drivers in the top 10. Honestly, only Vettel deserves to be in the top 5!
QUOTE (metz @ Nov 19 2009, 02:17)
Whoever said that this was a list of Top British drivers was absolutely correct.
To give us another perspective, AMuS, probably the best German equivalent of AS, has the following ranking for the 2009 performance.
As expected, you may detect a somewhat German slant.
Rubens Barichello
Jenson Button
They put Rubens Barrichello ABOVE the team-mate who won three times as many races as he did.To give us another perspective, AMuS, probably the best German equivalent of AS, has the following ranking for the 2009 performance.
As expected, you may detect a somewhat German slant.
Rubens Barichello
Jenson Button
That's not a German slant. That's mental illness.
QUOTE (Scotracer @ Nov 18 2009, 14:09)
Mine:
1. Hamilton
2. Button
3. Vettel
4. Barrichello
5. Webber
6. Raikkonen
7. Rosberg
8. Massa
9. Heidfeld
10. Kubica
1. Hamilton
2. Button
3. Vettel
4. Barrichello
5. Webber
6. Raikkonen
7. Rosberg
8. Massa
9. Heidfeld
10. Kubica
Mine:
1- Henry VIII
2- Cecil Rhodes
3- Edward I Longshanks
4- Oliver Cromwell
5- Neville Chamberlain
6- Francis Drake
7- Winston Churchill
8- William Pitt the Younger
9- Henry V
10- Horatio Nelson
^ One of them went to my college.
QUOTE (DePortago @ Nov 19 2009, 17:33)
Mine:
1- Henry VIII
2- Cecil Rhodes
3- Edward I Longshanks
4- Oliver Cromwell
5- Neville Chamberlain
6- Francis Drake
7- Winston Churchill
8- William Pitt the Younger
9- Henry V
10- Horatio Nelson
1- Henry VIII
2- Cecil Rhodes
3- Edward I Longshanks
4- Oliver Cromwell
5- Neville Chamberlain
6- Francis Drake
7- Winston Churchill
8- William Pitt the Younger
9- Henry V
10- Horatio Nelson
Another poster who hasn't put the champion first! And your number #1 kept changing teams during the season; what kind of example is that? And Pitt doesn't deserve to be on the list - his win was only due to the fact that Lord North retired from the lead, and he'd be nowhere without George III's engineering prowess.
QUOTE (midgrid @ Nov 19 2009, 18:37)
Another poster who hasn't put the champion first! And your number #1 kept changing teams during the season; what kind of example is that? And Pitt doesn't deserve to be on the list - his win was only due to the fact that Lord North retired from the lead, and he'd be nowhere without George III's engineering prowess.
Yeah, but he is still the youngest world champion ever!
[quote name='metz' date='Nov 19 2009, 03:17' post='4002355']
Whoever said that this was a list of Top British drivers was absolutely correct.
Hamilton -Has just made it into the top 10. His poor performances in Monaco and even worse in Turkey were not rescued by his 3 victories at the end.
3 victories? Did I lost one race or what?
Whoever said that this was a list of Top British drivers was absolutely correct.
Hamilton -Has just made it into the top 10. His poor performances in Monaco and even worse in Turkey were not rescued by his 3 victories at the end.
3 victories? Did I lost one race or what?
I rather like the list of the F1 Team bosses
1. Sebastian Vettel 76
2. Jenson Button 67
3. Lewis Hamilton 65
4. Fernando Alonso 39
5. Rubens Barrichello 35
6= Kimi Raikkonen 30
6= Mark Webber 30
8. Felipe Massa 19
9. Robert Kubica 10
10. Adrian Sutil 8
Perhaps we should make a Metalist?
This list above was composed by the ten principials. If we take the two other lists from the two Mags and add their rankings with the same point system we come up with.
METALIST
1. Sebastian Vettel 88
2. Jenson Button 83
3. Lewis Hamilton 76
4. Rubens Barichello 45
5. Fernando Alonso 42
6. Mark Webber 39
7. Kimi Raikkonen 32
8. Felipe Massa 24
9. Robert Kubica 14
10. Adrian Sutil 10
- Nico Rosberg 6 <- we don't know how many points this guys got in the F1 bosses review.
- Glock 2
I like this list above even better. Do we have other Top-10 ratings from good mags? Best if not from Germany or Britain.
H2H
QUOTE (mkay @ Nov 19 2009, 17:00)
No. AS put the WDC in the top 2, and probably the fastest driver of the field in the first spot, whereas AMuS trully overrated Rosberg, and others.
whatever
Hamilton -Has just made it into the top 10. His poor performances in Monaco and even worse in Turkey were not rescued by his 3 victories at the end.
3 victories? Did I lost one race or what?
Let me re-translate.
His poor performance in Monaco and evern worse performance in Turkey could not be equalized by 3 wins.
QUOTE (mkay @ Nov 19 2009, 17:00)
No. AS put the WDC in the top 2, and probably the fastest driver of the field in the first spot, whereas AMuS trully overrated Rosberg, and others.
ok, despite my better judgement, I'll bite.
AS (British) ordered the list Brit, Brit, German....
AMuS (German) ordered the lsit Brazillian, Brit, German,...
And yet, somehow you manage to say that AMuS was a homer list and AS was purely rational!!!
Yes, AS put the WDC #2, but so did AMuS. AS put Hamilton #1 because (you say) he is the fastest driver out there. Well, excuse me, but I thought the lists were "best drivers of the year", not "fastest in the fantasy world that exists under your covers with a handful of kleenex".
That aside, even if it were a list of "fastest last year", I'd argue that perhaps Vettel would have been a better #1. He beat a recognised top qualifier (someone who had never been outqualified by a teammate) 15-2!!! Despite being fueled heavier at least half of the time. Hamilton beat a good (but not special) qualifier (in F1 terms). Barrichello, meanwhile, outqualified the world champion.
Now, while I dont agree that RB was the best driver (I tend to think the WDC is pretty much always the best driver of the year), I can see a better argument for him than Hamilton. Out of all the race winners, only he and Kimi did it on a day when their car wasnt the best in the field. Maybe that's why they chose him. Whatever the reasons, it wasnt because he was the homeboy (unless he had a nationality transplant I missed)
QUOTE (sensible @ Nov 19 2009, 13:22)
ok, despite my better judgement, I'll bite.
AS (British) ordered the list Brit, Brit, German....
AMuS (German) ordered the lsit Brazillian, Brit, German,...
And yet, somehow you manage to say that AMuS was a homer list and AS was purely rational!!!
Yes, AS put the WDC #2, but so did AMuS. AS put Hamilton #1 because (you say) he is the fastest driver out there. Well, excuse me, but I thought the lists were "best drivers of the year", not "fastest in the fantasy world that exists under your covers with a handful of kleenex".
That aside, even if it were a list of "fastest last year", I'd argue that perhaps Vettel would have been a better #1. He beat a recognised top qualifier (someone who had never been outqualified by a teammate) 15-2!!! Despite being fueled heavier at least half of the time. Hamilton beat a good (but not special) qualifier (in F1 terms). Barrichello, meanwhile, outqualified the world champion.
Now, while I dont agree that RB was the best driver (I tend to think the WDC is pretty much always the best driver of the year), I can see a better argument for him than Hamilton. Out of all the race winners, only he and Kimi did it on a day when their car wasnt the best in the field. Maybe that's why they chose him. Whatever the reasons, it wasnt because he was the homeboy (unless he had a nationality transplant I missed)
AS (British) ordered the list Brit, Brit, German....
AMuS (German) ordered the lsit Brazillian, Brit, German,...
And yet, somehow you manage to say that AMuS was a homer list and AS was purely rational!!!
Yes, AS put the WDC #2, but so did AMuS. AS put Hamilton #1 because (you say) he is the fastest driver out there. Well, excuse me, but I thought the lists were "best drivers of the year", not "fastest in the fantasy world that exists under your covers with a handful of kleenex".
That aside, even if it were a list of "fastest last year", I'd argue that perhaps Vettel would have been a better #1. He beat a recognised top qualifier (someone who had never been outqualified by a teammate) 15-2!!! Despite being fueled heavier at least half of the time. Hamilton beat a good (but not special) qualifier (in F1 terms). Barrichello, meanwhile, outqualified the world champion.
Now, while I dont agree that RB was the best driver (I tend to think the WDC is pretty much always the best driver of the year), I can see a better argument for him than Hamilton. Out of all the race winners, only he and Kimi did it on a day when their car wasnt the best in the field. Maybe that's why they chose him. Whatever the reasons, it wasnt because he was the homeboy (unless he had a nationality transplant I missed)
How can you fault Autosport for putting the WDC at the top of the list? It's not their fault he's British.
What I meant is that it's much more acceptable and correct to put the WDC and the driver who's recognized as the best or second best in F1 at the moment (and who had a tremendous 2009 campaign, dog of a car or not) in the TOP 6, than some Germans who've never won any races and only had flashes of brilliance throughout the season (Glock, Rosberg).
Glock and Rosberg's positions are a shame, to be honest. Hamilton and Button's are much closer to their actual standings. If Hamilton does not deserve No. 1, he should still sit in the TOP 5, if not the TOP 3, while Glock and Rosberg should not even be in the TOP 5 and only Rosberg deserves to be in the TOP 10.
QUOTE (metz @ Nov 19 2009, 17:34)
No. The tyre decision was his.
Like Spa.
Like Spa.
So what?
Heidfeld spun and got stuck in the grass, so if the race was stopped one lap later, Heidfeld would end up with a DNF, not 2nd. Pure luck.
This is stupid... If Spa '08 the race would have lasted 1 lap longer, or the rain heavier, Heidfeld would have won.
What I fail to understand is that in your quest to build up Kubica, you take every single opportunity to trash Heidfeld. With the most silly, (luck, weather, he's German, team hates robert, conspiracy, etc.) kind of nonsense.
And I'm always stupid enough to take your bait...
No more!
What I fail to understand is that in your quest to build up Kubica, you take every single opportunity to trash Heidfeld. With the most silly, (luck, weather, he's German, team hates robert, conspiracy, etc.) kind of nonsense.
And I'm always stupid enough to take your bait...
No more!
Every year this is difficult, but what this thread proves is that 2009 really made it even bloody harder to rate drivers - with the order of the teams being completely shuffled without warning.
That said I think the AMuS people must've been on an acid trip when they picked that list. Rubens 1st and Hamilton 10th is downright bizarre. Autosport's I don't fully agree with, there's one or two odd rankings, but I don't think it's horribly off the mark.
That said I think the AMuS people must've been on an acid trip when they picked that list. Rubens 1st and Hamilton 10th is downright bizarre. Autosport's I don't fully agree with, there's one or two odd rankings, but I don't think it's horribly off the mark.
Even the Team Boss' top 10 was more reflective than this.
QUOTE (Megan @ Nov 19 2009, 16:30)
And as result of that Heidfeld spun behind safety car and he already parked his car in the grass when the race was stopped. The result was taken at the end of the penultimate completed lap - hence Heidfeld's second place. Isn't it luck?
I even said there was some luck involved, that it came heaving down just as Heidfeld made it to 2nd. But why did Heidfeld come 2nd. Because unlike others he didn't put wets on on a bone dry track or come in every second lap to change his tyres. Glock probably played it best going onto inters and then full wets, but even then he finished behind Heidfeld. Both took a risk, both ultimately came up with a good result. Heidfeld made the right choices at the right time during that race.
Everyone had the same choices - you can't put someone making better choices on the whole just down as solely luck.
Just for fun - this is my 2009 - list. Please note it has nothing to do with past or future or potential performances at all - that would be another story.
1. Button. Honestly - I don't really like the guy. I don't think he is among the top 3 drivers out there BUT he did do great this season. People go on about the car - well it was good - but you have to drive it and do it. Did he make any mistakes at all? I can't really recall. He did a great job - outstanding. This was his season. He could build on it and become better maybe. I don't think so - but you never know.
2. Vettel. Good car again. Some mistakes but racewins. The guy is quick - no doubt about it. Still needs to improve. Needs to get smarter.
3. Hamilton. I would prefer to put him lower actually. Not his season really. McLaren is a good car even when it is bad but he is quick and put in some performances.
4. Barrichello. I don't think he is any good - at all. He found himself in a top car that reminded him how it was when he drove for Ferrari and could look OK again. But he isn't that good. Will never be champion. Williams signing this driver - makes me sad. No vision. Williams signing Hulkenberg - makes me happy.
5. Raikkonen. When he woke up. Mostly based on the second half of the season. That Ferrari wasn't good at all by the time it started to look good. Ask Fisichella.
6. Massa. Wasn't sure if I should include Felipe baby somewhere but he gets here anyway. Raikkonens performances after Massa's injury makes me very aware that Felipe baby probably has most of the Ferrariteam in his hands - will change when Alonso comes though.
7. Rosberg. A big mystery. Would expect him to overperform with the car sometime. I mean - sometime. Next year will tell more about if Rosberg is great or average. Solid performances.
8. Webber. The big accident that Webber will cause hasn't happened yet but it will when mr Tough once again goes from one end of the track to another to prove he is a real man and that no one can overtake him. Tried to put Vettel down with words because he can't keep up with him. Maybe should have been higher but the Red Bull was the best car the second half of the season and winning in the best car is what you should do once or twice, which says something about Button's start of the season - that is how it should be done with the best car.
9. Alonso. Not interested this year and looking for his Ferraridrive.
10. Fisichella. Honorably mentioning him because of his performance at Spa. It was a Force India.
1. Button. Honestly - I don't really like the guy. I don't think he is among the top 3 drivers out there BUT he did do great this season. People go on about the car - well it was good - but you have to drive it and do it. Did he make any mistakes at all? I can't really recall. He did a great job - outstanding. This was his season. He could build on it and become better maybe. I don't think so - but you never know.
2. Vettel. Good car again. Some mistakes but racewins. The guy is quick - no doubt about it. Still needs to improve. Needs to get smarter.
3. Hamilton. I would prefer to put him lower actually. Not his season really. McLaren is a good car even when it is bad but he is quick and put in some performances.
4. Barrichello. I don't think he is any good - at all. He found himself in a top car that reminded him how it was when he drove for Ferrari and could look OK again. But he isn't that good. Will never be champion. Williams signing this driver - makes me sad. No vision. Williams signing Hulkenberg - makes me happy.
5. Raikkonen. When he woke up. Mostly based on the second half of the season. That Ferrari wasn't good at all by the time it started to look good. Ask Fisichella.
6. Massa. Wasn't sure if I should include Felipe baby somewhere but he gets here anyway. Raikkonens performances after Massa's injury makes me very aware that Felipe baby probably has most of the Ferrariteam in his hands - will change when Alonso comes though.
7. Rosberg. A big mystery. Would expect him to overperform with the car sometime. I mean - sometime. Next year will tell more about if Rosberg is great or average. Solid performances.
8. Webber. The big accident that Webber will cause hasn't happened yet but it will when mr Tough once again goes from one end of the track to another to prove he is a real man and that no one can overtake him. Tried to put Vettel down with words because he can't keep up with him. Maybe should have been higher but the Red Bull was the best car the second half of the season and winning in the best car is what you should do once or twice, which says something about Button's start of the season - that is how it should be done with the best car.
9. Alonso. Not interested this year and looking for his Ferraridrive.
10. Fisichella. Honorably mentioning him because of his performance at Spa. It was a Force India.
QUOTE (FenderJaguar @ Nov 19 2009, 20:47)
Just for fun - this is my 2009 - list. Please note it has nothing to do with past or future or potential performances at all - that would be another story.
1. Button. Honestly - I don't really like the guy. I don't think he is among the top 3 drivers out there BUT he did do great this season. People go on about the car - well it was good - but you have to drive it and do it. Did he make any mistakes at all? I can't really recall. He did a great job - outstanding. This was his season. He could build on it and become better maybe. I don't think so - but you never know.
2. Vettel. Good car again. Some mistakes but racewins. The guy is quick - no doubt about it. Still needs to improve. Needs to get smarter.
3. Hamilton. I would prefer to put him lower actually. Not his season really. McLaren is a good car even when it is bad but he is quick and put in some performances.
4. Barrichello. I don't think he is any good - at all. He found himself in a top car that reminded him how it was when he drove for Ferrari and could look OK again. But he isn't that good. Will never be champion. Williams signing this driver - makes me sad. No vision. Williams signing Hulkenberg - makes me happy.
5. Raikkonen. When he woke up. Mostly based on the second half of the season. That Ferrari wasn't good at all by the time it started to look good. Ask Fisichella.
6. Massa. Wasn't sure if I should include Felipe baby somewhere but he gets here anyway. Raikkonens performances after Massa's injury makes me very aware that Felipe baby probably has most of the Ferrariteam in his hands - will change when Alonso comes though.
7. Rosberg. A big mystery. Would expect him to overperform with the car sometime. I mean - sometime. Next year will tell more about if Rosberg is great or average. Solid performances.
8. Webber. The big accident that Webber will cause hasn't happened yet but it will when mr Tough once again goes from one end of the track to another to prove he is a real man and that no one can overtake him. Tried to put Vettel down with words because he can't keep up with him. Maybe should have been higher but the Red Bull was the best car the second half of the season and winning in the best car is what you should do once or twice, which says something about Button's start of the season - that is how it should be done with the best car.
9. Alonso. Not interested this year and looking for his Ferraridrive.
10. Fisichella. Honorably mentioning him because of his performance at Spa. It was a Force India.
1. Button. Honestly - I don't really like the guy. I don't think he is among the top 3 drivers out there BUT he did do great this season. People go on about the car - well it was good - but you have to drive it and do it. Did he make any mistakes at all? I can't really recall. He did a great job - outstanding. This was his season. He could build on it and become better maybe. I don't think so - but you never know.
2. Vettel. Good car again. Some mistakes but racewins. The guy is quick - no doubt about it. Still needs to improve. Needs to get smarter.
3. Hamilton. I would prefer to put him lower actually. Not his season really. McLaren is a good car even when it is bad but he is quick and put in some performances.
4. Barrichello. I don't think he is any good - at all. He found himself in a top car that reminded him how it was when he drove for Ferrari and could look OK again. But he isn't that good. Will never be champion. Williams signing this driver - makes me sad. No vision. Williams signing Hulkenberg - makes me happy.
5. Raikkonen. When he woke up. Mostly based on the second half of the season. That Ferrari wasn't good at all by the time it started to look good. Ask Fisichella.
6. Massa. Wasn't sure if I should include Felipe baby somewhere but he gets here anyway. Raikkonens performances after Massa's injury makes me very aware that Felipe baby probably has most of the Ferrariteam in his hands - will change when Alonso comes though.
7. Rosberg. A big mystery. Would expect him to overperform with the car sometime. I mean - sometime. Next year will tell more about if Rosberg is great or average. Solid performances.
8. Webber. The big accident that Webber will cause hasn't happened yet but it will when mr Tough once again goes from one end of the track to another to prove he is a real man and that no one can overtake him. Tried to put Vettel down with words because he can't keep up with him. Maybe should have been higher but the Red Bull was the best car the second half of the season and winning in the best car is what you should do once or twice, which says something about Button's start of the season - that is how it should be done with the best car.
9. Alonso. Not interested this year and looking for his Ferraridrive.
10. Fisichella. Honorably mentioning him because of his performance at Spa. It was a Force India.
Fisichella shouldn't have been here and Alonso should have been higher than this.
Well, I tried to be as honest and personal as I could and didn't want to include some drivers I feel are quite good but didn't do a lot for the 2009 season. I don't rate Fisichella that high but it was that weekend at Spa
One should always keep in mind that those listings don't matter. Not at all.
Most drivers are out to win races and championships, I've yet to hear of one whose main goal is to be on top of a funny artificial top ten list.
I hope everyone is still aware of that?
Most drivers are out to win races and championships, I've yet to hear of one whose main goal is to be on top of a funny artificial top ten list.
I hope everyone is still aware of that?
QUOTE (as65p @ Nov 20 2009, 02:00)
One should always keep in mind that those listings don't matter. Not at all.
Most drivers are out to win races and championships, I've yet to hear of one whose main goal is to be on top of a funny artificial top ten list.
I hope everyone is still aware of that?
Most drivers are out to win races and championships, I've yet to hear of one whose main goal is to be on top of a funny artificial top ten list.
I hope everyone is still aware of that?
Well - I've waited to add my value-less opinion - but I do have to say that I think that the Brit media are being a bit harsh on JB - LH did a good job this year, much of the time with inferior equipment, but if that were the metric upon which we judged drivers, then I think it is clear that nico Rosberg is #1 - who else got more out of a dubious car?
However, I don't worry too much about what Autosport is willing to say to sell paper and ink.... let's be honest - JB won the 2009 WDC in a more dominant fashion than Lewis did the previous year - if Autosport is plumping for LH, there's a bias - not to be unpleasant - but I think it's true.
However, I don't worry too much about what Autosport is willing to say to sell paper and ink.... let's be honest - JB won the 2009 WDC in a more dominant fashion than Lewis did the previous year - if Autosport is plumping for LH, there's a bias - not to be unpleasant - but I think it's true.
Mmmm - yeah - I think Autosport putting Hamilton as their nr 1 says something like "hey - we didn't watch the 2009 season - at all - but we want to sell" And how did Kubica even get there? He's good - no doubt about that but 2009?
QUOTE (Bruce @ Nov 20 2009, 02:20)
Well - I've waited to add my value-less opinion - but I do have to say that I think that the Brit media are being a bit harsh on JB - LH did a good job this year, much of the time with inferior equipment, but if that were the metric upon which we judged drivers, then I think it is clear that nico Rosberg is #1 - who else got more out of a dubious car?
His car wasnt dubious. It was one of the DD gang and was consistently fast throughout the year except for a few races. He couldnt even get a single podium with it and in the only race he looked like getting one, he threw it away with a rookie error. Dont know why so many rave about his year. The car was capable of much more.
QUOTE (vera @ Nov 20 2009, 03:32)
His car wasnt dubious. It was one of the DD gang and was consistently fast throughout the year except for a few races. He couldnt even get a single podium with it and in the only race he looked like getting one, he threw it away with a rookie error. Dont know why so many rave about his year. The car was capable of much more.
QUOTE (Bruce @ Nov 20 2009, 02:20)
Well - I've waited to add my value-less opinion - but I do have to say that I think that the Brit media are being a bit harsh on JB - LH did a good job this year, much of the time with inferior equipment, but if that were the metric upon which we judged drivers, then I think it is clear that nico Rosberg is #1 - who else got more out of a dubious car?
However, I don't worry too much about what Autosport is willing to say to sell paper and ink.... let's be honest - JB won the 2009 WDC in a more dominant fashion than Lewis did the previous year - if Autosport is plumping for LH, there's a bias - not to be unpleasant - but I think it's true.
However, I don't worry too much about what Autosport is willing to say to sell paper and ink.... let's be honest - JB won the 2009 WDC in a more dominant fashion than Lewis did the previous year - if Autosport is plumping for LH, there's a bias - not to be unpleasant - but I think it's true.
..ahhh Bruce, welcome back
Re the bolded statement great to hear you finally admit what we all saw this season but to say JB won in a more dominant fashion is to ignore the truth, he won in a more dominant car, fact.
Lewis has not had such a great car advantage over any of his nearest rivals since his arrival in '07 - can you imagine what he would do if presented with a monster of a car??
Funnily enough I agree with you re Rosberg, he probably proved himself to be one of the most consistent drivers on the grid this year (hence the interest from Merc, in addition to his nationality of course) but I personally believe that Williams was faster than he showed it to be - heck I reckon Lewis / Alonso or Kimi in either that Williams or Red Bull would have seriously troubled Jenson towards the end of the season when Brawn supposedly switched their focus to their '10 challenger!
AMuS have somehow outdone Autosport. Their list makes Autosport's look sane.
Based on podiums with a 10, 8, 6 points system
1. Button
2. Vettel
3. Webber
4. Barrichello
5. Hamilton
6. Raikkonen
7. Trulli
8. Glock
9. =Heidfeld
=Fisichella
= Kubica
1. Button
2. Vettel
3. Webber
4. Barrichello
5. Hamilton
6. Raikkonen
7. Trulli
8. Glock
9. =Heidfeld
=Fisichella
= Kubica
Based on effort and car.
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
QUOTE (Bishy @ Nov 20 2009, 03:28)
..ahhh Bruce, welcome back
Re the bolded statement great to hear you finally admit what we all saw this season but to say JB won in a more dominant fashion is to ignore the truth, he won in a more dominant car, fact.
Re the bolded statement great to hear you finally admit what we all saw this season but to say JB won in a more dominant fashion is to ignore the truth, he won in a more dominant car, fact.
Brawn WAS the dominant car for the first bit of the season, Button dominated - he beat his most important competition (his team-mate) handily. I don't think you can ask much more.
QUOTE (Bishy @ Nov 20 2009, 03:28)
Lewis has not had such a great car advantage over any of his nearest rivals since his arrival in '07 - can you imagine what he would do if presented with a monster of a car??
He'd probably do much what Button did - win 6 or so of the first 7 races...
Somehow though, if he did, I don't think you'd be suggesting his achievement was questionable based upon the dominance of the car.
Where is Kamui Kobayashi?
He showed in two races more than many others in the whole season.
How Hamilton can be before Vettel?
How the WDC can be behind anyone?
He showed in two races more than many others in the whole season.
How Hamilton can be before Vettel?
How the WDC can be behind anyone?
QUOTE (FenderJaguar @ Nov 20 2009, 02:25)
I think Autosport putting Hamilton as their nr 1 says something like "hey - we didn't watch the 2009 season - at all - but we want to sell"
Yes, yes, that's why they put their list on the front cover, so people see the mag and say - yah, Lewis is #1, I'll buy that!
Oh, Autosport don't put the list on the cover? So you have to read the mag to see what the list is?
So, maybe, just maybe, you're just making accusations because you disagree and you want to justify your own beliefs.
QUOTE (Mia 01 @ Nov 21 2009, 00:34)
Based on effort and car.
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Kimi
Well if it's effort and car then you can't go past Fred.
QUOTE (Classic Ferrari @ Nov 21 2009, 01:37)
Well if it's effort and car then you can't go past Fred.
Not true in this case.
Kimi really wrung every possible performance out of that car.
QUOTE (Muppetmad @ Nov 18 2009, 16:26)
Spain - clutch issue off start, lost out big time
Plus wrong tyres at wrong sides in Q3
After a spanish sports newspaper, team bosses have voted Vettel as the best driver of this season. The poll has been made by Autosport.
Here is the complete list:
1. Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull) 76 points.
2. Jenson Button (Brawn GP) 67.
3. Lewis Hamilton (McLaren-Mercedes) 65.
4. Fernando Alonso (Renault) 39.
5. Rubens Barrichello (Brawn GP) 35.
6. Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari) 30.
7. Mark Webber (Red Bull) 30.
8. Felipe Massa (Ferrari) 19.
9. Robert Kubica (BMW) 10.
10. Adrian Sutil (Force India) 8
Much more credible
http://www.elmundodeportivo.es/gen/2009111...-temporada.html
Why the hell is Massa even in the top 10???? weird
QUOTE (thiscocks @ Nov 21 2009, 11:29)
Why the hell is Massa even in the top 10???? weird
Because he is a GP winner and potential WDC.
QUOTE (robracer @ Nov 21 2009, 11:39)
Because he is a GP winner and potential WDC.
yeah but he did nothing in 2009 compared to the other drivers in the list
Nico Rosberg, definitely should be in the top 10, it was the car's fault Williams got no podiums, oh.......
Why did Nico make the list?
Why did Nico make the list?
QUOTE (thiscocks @ Nov 21 2009, 12:55)
yeah but he did nothing in 2009 compared to the other drivers in the list
He missed half the season because of his accident.
Before that he was 5th in the rankings and had scored points in the previous 5 races. Much better than what his teammate had achieved.
Looking at Mark Hughes reasoning for his picks, I'm struck by his total glossing over of the Melbourne incident.
Hamilton, as we all remember, lied about events in Melbourne, when this was challenged and he was provided with proof that he'd not told the truth, he continued to lie - then, when it was obvious that was a no-go he hid behind the team and blamed others.
Not his proudest moment I think you'll agree. When Senna behaved like this, the British press tended to "tut tut" and talk about "flawed genius" and that sort of thing. The message here is clear though - when Hamilton behaves this way, we are to forget it and award him best driver of the year in a year which he won 2 races and finished 5th...
You really have to love the British Press....
Hamilton, as we all remember, lied about events in Melbourne, when this was challenged and he was provided with proof that he'd not told the truth, he continued to lie - then, when it was obvious that was a no-go he hid behind the team and blamed others.
Not his proudest moment I think you'll agree. When Senna behaved like this, the British press tended to "tut tut" and talk about "flawed genius" and that sort of thing. The message here is clear though - when Hamilton behaves this way, we are to forget it and award him best driver of the year in a year which he won 2 races and finished 5th...
You really have to love the British Press....
QUOTE (robracer @ Nov 21 2009, 08:09)
He missed half the season because of his accident.
Before that he was 5th in the rankings and had scored points in the previous 5 races. Much better than what his teammate had achieved.
Before that he was 5th in the rankings and had scored points in the previous 5 races. Much better than what his teammate had achieved.
Exactly.
QUOTE (Bruce @ Nov 21 2009, 13:46)
Looking at Mark Hughes reasoning for his picks, I'm struck by his total glossing over of the Melbourne incident.
Hamilton, as we all remember, lied about events in Melbourne, when this was challenged and he was provided with proof that he'd not told the truth, he continued to lie - then, when it was obvious that was a no-go he hid behind the team and blamed others.
Not his proudest moment I think you'll agree. When Senna behaved like this, the British press tended to "tut tut" and talk about "flawed genius" and that sort of thing. The message here is clear though - when Hamilton behaves this way, we are to forget it and award him best driver of the year in a year which he won 2 races and finished 5th...
You really have to love the British Press....
Hamilton, as we all remember, lied about events in Melbourne, when this was challenged and he was provided with proof that he'd not told the truth, he continued to lie - then, when it was obvious that was a no-go he hid behind the team and blamed others.
Not his proudest moment I think you'll agree. When Senna behaved like this, the British press tended to "tut tut" and talk about "flawed genius" and that sort of thing. The message here is clear though - when Hamilton behaves this way, we are to forget it and award him best driver of the year in a year which he won 2 races and finished 5th...
You really have to love the British Press....
A driver should be judged by what happens on track not on the politics of the sport. In melbourne Hamilton finished third as i saw it...end of story. If we start passing moral judgments, where will it end? When do we draw the line?
QUOTE (jesee @ Nov 21 2009, 08:56)
A driver should be judged by what happens on track not on the politics of the sport.
What politics? Hamilton passed someone, then misrepresented how it happened in the hopes of saving his own spot and costing Trulli. That's not politics, thats simply someone acting selfishly and childishly. The politics of the sport are the arguments surrounding the double diffuser and it's legality, not Hamilton lying and hoping to get away with it.
QUOTE (jesee @ Nov 21 2009, 08:56)
In melbourne Hamilton finished third as i saw it...end of story. If we start passing moral judgments, where will it end? When do we draw the line?
Thats how you saw it, is it? I'd say that moral judgements were already passed, wouldn't you? The fact that Hamilton was dsq'd from the race suggests strongly that a moral judgement was passed. And what will come of all this passing of moral judgement? Horrors - we might actually get drivers who act with (cringe) integrity, or perhaps worse - even HONESTY. What a tragedy that would be for the sport...
QUOTE (Bruce @ Nov 21 2009, 14:04)
What politics? Hamilton passed someone, then misrepresented how it happened in the hopes of saving his own spot and costing Trulli. That's not politics, thats simply someone acting selfishly and childishly. The politics of the sport are the arguments surrounding the double diffuser and it's legality, not Hamilton lying and hoping to get away with it.
hmmm, I seem to remember Dave, taking the lead on all this misrepresentation but due it not meeting peoples arguments there seems a determined attempt to brush it under the carpet.
If you are going to do that for Lewis then I think we should be fair and also blame Alonso for crashgate.
QUOTE (metz @ Nov 19 2009, 02:17)
Whoever said that this was a list of Top British drivers was absolutely correct.
To give us another perspective, AMuS, probably the best German equivalent of AS, has the following ranking for the 2009 performance.
As expected, you may detect a somewhat German slant.
Rubens Barichello
Jenson Button
Sebastian Vettel
Nico Rosberg
Mark Webber
Felipe Massa
Timo Glock
Kimi Raikkonen
Fernando Alonso
Lewis Hamilton
Nick Heidfeld
Jarno Trulli
Robert Kubica
Adrian Sutil
Heikki Kovalainen
Sebastian Buemi
Giancarlo Fisichella
Kazuki Nakajima
Sebastian Bourdaise
Jaime Alguersuari
Romain Grosjean
and driving less than 1/3 the season
Kamui Kobayashi
Tonio Liuzzi
Luca Badoer
What I find interesting are their explanations:
Barrichello -Has once again given notice of his capability. Only in 2 races did he not score. His consistency was outstanding. He narrowly edged out Button.
Button -Only a hair behind Rubens. The reason is his performance in the second half of the year. During the first half, both scored top marks.
Vettel -The most successful season of his career. He had great form. But his dismal performance in Monaco could not be excused.
Rosberg -Like Barichello, only had 2 bad races. In China and Italy he was far off the points. Otherwise he got the maximum from the car and was in a different class to his teamate.
Webber -Like Vettel, he just missed the grade. Japan was dismal. Thank's to his first two GP victories and strong performances around mid season he ranks near the top.
Massa -Until his accident, he could not deliver the very top results but put in solid and constant performances. In Barcelona he had a great drive that ended with a failure. As a result he only got one podium.
Glock -With a noteworthy effort to catch up, he could somewhat rescue his reputation as a fighter. Until his accident he had a satisfactory performance except Monaco where he was wanting.
Raikkonen -Kimi had more bad races than Glock. Bad performances in Spain and Abu Dhabi were offset by 3 very good races so that he finished higher than his early form indicated.
Alonso -The potent combination of Renault and Alonso could not be demonstrated this year. Although he did not slide down he also dis not advance up. There was not one race where we could say he was outstanding. Overall he was good to satisfactory.
Hamilton -Has just made it into the top 10. His poor performances in Monaco and even worse in Turkey were not rescued by his 3 victories at the end.
Heidfeld -Was just adequet at start of the season so that his 5 good races at the end were not enough to rescue him.
Trulli -Good qualifying is not enough. He was just too unpredictable. Great races in Turkey and Japan and total disasters in China and Singapore, and even worse in Germany.
Kubuca -Stated the year with top marks in Australia where he crashed with Vettel before a good result. His other good race was Sao Paulo. He and his car were just not competitive in the other races.
Sutil -Varied too much by car and track. When the car was bad or the tack didn't suit, he was poor. When he smelled a chance he took advantage. He had outstanding races in Italy and Germany.
Kovalainen -Had only 3 satisfactory races. In the shadow of Hamilton he made way too many mistakes, which ultimately cost him his job.
I can't be bothered translating the others.
AMuS have always been on the Rosberg and Vettel bandwagon.
I also disagree with their high rating of Glock and their low rating of Hamilton.
For the top marks, it is interesting that they just edge Rubens over Jenson due to his consistency.
So there you have it.
Feel free to agree with the Autosport (British) or the AMuS (German) perspective.
Can someone post other published rankings?
Maybe we should have a poll as to which lists are better?
To give us another perspective, AMuS, probably the best German equivalent of AS, has the following ranking for the 2009 performance.
As expected, you may detect a somewhat German slant.
Rubens Barichello
Jenson Button
Sebastian Vettel
Nico Rosberg
Mark Webber
Felipe Massa
Timo Glock
Kimi Raikkonen
Fernando Alonso
Lewis Hamilton
Nick Heidfeld
Jarno Trulli
Robert Kubica
Adrian Sutil
Heikki Kovalainen
Sebastian Buemi
Giancarlo Fisichella
Kazuki Nakajima
Sebastian Bourdaise
Jaime Alguersuari
Romain Grosjean
and driving less than 1/3 the season
Kamui Kobayashi
Tonio Liuzzi
Luca Badoer
What I find interesting are their explanations:
Barrichello -Has once again given notice of his capability. Only in 2 races did he not score. His consistency was outstanding. He narrowly edged out Button.
Button -Only a hair behind Rubens. The reason is his performance in the second half of the year. During the first half, both scored top marks.
Vettel -The most successful season of his career. He had great form. But his dismal performance in Monaco could not be excused.
Rosberg -Like Barichello, only had 2 bad races. In China and Italy he was far off the points. Otherwise he got the maximum from the car and was in a different class to his teamate.
Webber -Like Vettel, he just missed the grade. Japan was dismal. Thank's to his first two GP victories and strong performances around mid season he ranks near the top.
Massa -Until his accident, he could not deliver the very top results but put in solid and constant performances. In Barcelona he had a great drive that ended with a failure. As a result he only got one podium.
Glock -With a noteworthy effort to catch up, he could somewhat rescue his reputation as a fighter. Until his accident he had a satisfactory performance except Monaco where he was wanting.
Raikkonen -Kimi had more bad races than Glock. Bad performances in Spain and Abu Dhabi were offset by 3 very good races so that he finished higher than his early form indicated.
Alonso -The potent combination of Renault and Alonso could not be demonstrated this year. Although he did not slide down he also dis not advance up. There was not one race where we could say he was outstanding. Overall he was good to satisfactory.
Hamilton -Has just made it into the top 10. His poor performances in Monaco and even worse in Turkey were not rescued by his 3 victories at the end.
Heidfeld -Was just adequet at start of the season so that his 5 good races at the end were not enough to rescue him.
Trulli -Good qualifying is not enough. He was just too unpredictable. Great races in Turkey and Japan and total disasters in China and Singapore, and even worse in Germany.
Kubuca -Stated the year with top marks in Australia where he crashed with Vettel before a good result. His other good race was Sao Paulo. He and his car were just not competitive in the other races.
Sutil -Varied too much by car and track. When the car was bad or the tack didn't suit, he was poor. When he smelled a chance he took advantage. He had outstanding races in Italy and Germany.
Kovalainen -Had only 3 satisfactory races. In the shadow of Hamilton he made way too many mistakes, which ultimately cost him his job.
I can't be bothered translating the others.
AMuS have always been on the Rosberg and Vettel bandwagon.
I also disagree with their high rating of Glock and their low rating of Hamilton.
For the top marks, it is interesting that they just edge Rubens over Jenson due to his consistency.
So there you have it.
Feel free to agree with the Autosport (British) or the AMuS (German) perspective.
Can someone post other published rankings?
Maybe we should have a poll as to which lists are better?
Good thing that the only word i understand in german is Achtung! Really ridiculousQUOTE (dank @ Nov 18 2009, 14:10)
This week's issue of Autosport is an end-of-season special and as such, includes their top 10 drivers for this year.
And the winners?
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Jenson Button
3. Sebastian Vettel
4. Mark Webber
5. Robert Kubica
6. Fernando Alonso
7. Felipe Massa
8. Kimi Raikkonen
9. Rubens Barrichello
10. Nico Rosberg
Do you agree with their rankings? I feel it's probably bang on the money, with Hamilton extracting the most from his machinery all season long.
And the winners?
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Jenson Button
3. Sebastian Vettel
4. Mark Webber
5. Robert Kubica
6. Fernando Alonso
7. Felipe Massa
8. Kimi Raikkonen
9. Rubens Barrichello
10. Nico Rosberg
Do you agree with their rankings? I feel it's probably bang on the money, with Hamilton extracting the most from his machinery all season long.
It could be just me, but I feel this is a biased towards the brits and the good cars. Also, Kubica didn't have a great year, to put him miles ahead of Heidfeld.
Here's my list, I'm not claiming it's totally unbiased, just my thoughts.
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Sebastian Vettel
3. Kimi Raikkonen
4. Fernando Alonso
5. Jenson Button
6. Felipe Massa
7. Mark Webber
8. Nico Rosberg
9. Robert Kubica
10. Jarno Trulli
*I'll reserve right to adjust later, please don't quote.
The only thing the list shows is that MH is a Kubica fanboy 
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