And the guy who got beaten to third in the WDC. The guy who had four consecutive non-scores in 2008. The guy who struggled against Massa who finishes 2010 over 100 points behind Alonso.

because alonso was gaining points on the leaders,that i know,but the season is now over so the point of the op can be added to

Well, after year 1, they´re wrong. 0 championships to 1. Let´s see if Alonso can reverse it.

Bingo.

Its completely idiotic to compare seasons like if they were all the same.

Do you really think Kimi would have scored more points than Alonso with the F10 this year considering he was struggling to beat Massa? I respect your opinion if you believe Kimi would be WC now with the F10, but IMO I doubt Kimi could have done better than Alonso did this season.

Peace,

No, I mean 2008 and 2009 till Massa's accident in Hungary. And well come to think of it also Brasil 2007 when Massa had to let Raikkonen win the race because Raikkonen wasn't fast enough to be ahead of Massa.

ill repeat myself you mean the 2007 f1 WDC?

It would be good watching France 2007 for you. In Brazil there wasn´t a proper race, so who the hell are you to say who was faster? Sour grapes if you ask me.

Anyway, if team orders won 2007 championship for you (LOL), I remind you that in 2010 there were some too

You mean one that actually shows up to race on title day?

Hindsight is 20/20 as Dave once put it.

At least the question is open for discussion.

But one thing can be said for sure. It was rather stupid to pay Kimi NOT to race this season. It's laughable to pay a Ferrari WDC NOT to drive for the team. Then, when all is said and done, ending up with a jackass like Alonso to choke it away by being the only contender to enjoy team orders and preferential treatment.

Something is clearly not right at Ferrari.

kimi winning thge championship in 07, alonso losing the championship in 2010.
both had massa as their teammate.


how is that evenly matched?
Drivers change, they arent robots, they can improve or can get worse...

kimi won in 2007, he beat massa.
But alonso totally destroyed massa in 2010, but didnt win the championship...

considering Kimi beat both hamilton and Alonso, wich both are regarded as the fastest F1 drivers at the moment, then the Ferrari of 2007 must havr been about 2 seconds faster than the mclarens...
I mean, Kimi beat massa in 07, but not as dominating as alonso did in 2010, but then again Kimi also beat alonso in 2007...
so the ferrari must have been about 1.5 seconds faster...

no... massas performence just decreased since his accident, not just because of it, but also because ferrari opted to support Alonso insteas, just like they supported massa more in 2008 and early 2009.

The scary thing is, so will Vettel......

Answer is right, because Kimi screwed up 2008 season massively.

But, 2007. Kimi > 2010. Alonso.

No 2010 championship, many million dollars down the drain in compensation. They could have seen Raikkonen's contract out. So yeah, they were wrong.

The 2007 Ferrari was good enough for Massa to win, this year's F10... not so much. For sure you could include Germany but then Massa only lead that race because he went off of the track and passed both Alonso and Vettel.


Difference is that KR was in a faster car judging by how Massa was able to get poles wins and fastest laps.


Massa was slow slow and slow all season long. Look at Bahrain, Alonso destroyed him.

To the original question: They were right to replace Kimi w Alonso. Alonso is a way better fit for Ferrari than Kimi. I like Raikkonen, I like him and I don't like Alonso too much, but Alonso can be a driving force, whereas Kimi cannot, at least not in that environment, he is not passionate enough.

Thank you!

[quote name='velgajski1' date='Nov 14 2010, 20:54' post='4719212']
Answer is right, because Kimi screwed up 2008 season massively.
? third is a massive screw up?,then so is 2nd

Back in 2007 faster cars could easily win races through fuel strategy, now in 2010 it's different, who do you think Red Bull took so long to win the titles? Imo, they are both uncomparable.

Kimi would probably struggle with low tyre temps like Massa did this year.


Because the F2008 was the fastest car? Isn't that a failure?

We should call this the Massa Paradox where Alonso actually seems to have been all along faster than himself! this could unravel the mistery of time/space, maybe Alonso can break the fabric of time/space!!! Amazing science!!!! Physics of the impossible, We should get Michio Kaku to explore the Massa Paradox, it might even solve the string theory equation, who knows!!!!

Believe me, not Alonso fan, far from it actually, but Kimi did have better car and Kimi should have win that title. Even Massa managed to almost win it in 2008.

But, in 2007. Kimi was stellar in my opinion.

2008 and 2009, which part of that you don't get?

So we can choose the years which suit our agendas? so, I could pick 07 Alonso being beaten by his rookie teammate, or 2010 choking Alonso? is that how it works guys?

1st in 2007
3rd in 2008
6th in 2009(2nd highest point score in 2nd half of the season,ham1st)
which part of my post dont YOU get?

Well, Kimi was just bad in 2008., it was his worst season in F1 (not by standings though), and top teams don't forget that.

So, it was a good decision to replace him, but this season also showed why in 2006. Kimi was the man of choice over Alonso for Ferrari. Kimi in his best years would win this title in my opinion.

Meh I guess not. Ferrari did not get Fernando to finish second. It is really that simple. Especially with dedicating so much time and money to alonso as well

Fact is that Kimi never dominated Massa as much as Alonso dominated Massa.

Fact is that Kimi had the best car in 2007 and the best car in 2008. And he won one title. Efficiency? 50%

Had Alonso the best car in this year? No.

So wait until he will have the best car in Ferrari. Not the second best, as this year, but car comparable with F2007 or F2008.

You can't compare different seasons with different cars.

The real indicator of Alonso speed is Massa. Kimi was more or less on Massa level. Alonso is a lot faster, so it seems Alonso is better and Ferrari was right.

What? It's not the same Massa as before? Well:

1. Doctor and medical experts said before the season that Massa is 100% healthy. You say that it's not the same Massa. I believe medical experts, sorry.
2. Ferrari camp said before this season that Massa is on the same level as before.
3. The tyres? Well i thought that is the real reason of Massa form...until i read interview with Bridgestone guy who said that he don't see that.

Conclusion? It seems that Alonso is a lot better than Kimi. It seems...

2007 2008 and 1968 are irrelevant.

What's relevant is Ferrari paid a crapload of money to get rid of Raikkonen and bring Alonso in. So since Alonso didn't deliver the championship the question becomes would Ferrari, with Raikkonen and Massa driving, have finished lower than 3rd in the constructors championship? In my opinion the answer to that question is a resounding no. Therefore Ferrari gained nothing and spent a crapload of money to achieve something they could have achieved by just holding station. Therefore they were wrong.

What's up with you? Alonso's beating the guy who beat KR twice by a country mile. What does that say to you? Or are you going to be ignorant?


Massa did not take part in every 2009 race, and when they did they were both on the same level. Massa did not retire from a single race this yeardue to any car failures yet he still finished over 100 points behind Alonso.

Fact is that Massa doesn't have his 'big brother' to pull strings for him in the background anymore.
Nor had he nearly lost his life and spent half the previous season recovering.
Nor did Kimi EVER ask the team to tell Massa to move over or demand #1 treatment the way Alonso has.
Not to mention the Jean Todt/Santander politicking in 2008 and beyond.

Haha, right, even now. Kimi wouldn't have been in the championship hunt based on 08-09 form.

All your presumptions lie based on fact that Massa drove as good in 2010 as in 2007 which I don't think was the case. In general drivers have better or worse seasons. Kimi wasn't nearly as good in 2008 as in 2007. Massa tends to be pretty bad if his car is not 100% to his liking, or if he starts from lower starting position - all those happening in 2010 quite often unlike in 2007.

On a bonus note Massa was clearly put to be #2 after couple of races this season (most notably seen in Germany). Policy dynamics of Ferrari have changed massively since 2007/2008 so I wouldn't compare it just like that.

Kimi 2008. wouldn't be even close to title. Kimi 2007 would in my opinion win this title in sam circumstances.

yeah Massa was crap this year though. Nothing like the Massa of 2008. Why he was crap is debatable, Alonso taking over Ferrari, Massa not being over his near death experience, what's undeniable though is that Massa has been crap.

i have already posted about this before.i have had a very serious brain injury.physically i think massa is 100% fit
mentally is a different thing.the doctors said i was 100% fit and healthy.i was not at all fit and healthy,physically or mentally for 2yrs

He is the same driver who's struggled with tyre temps. Sound familiar? And he seemed quite animated on the Ferrari roller coaster with the notoriously evil Alonso right next to him.

In your post you claim that:

1. the Ferrari is the second best car

2. Massa has performed as well this year as he did last year

Given Massa was in the same position in the WDC when he got injured last year as he has finished this, then based on the above 2 claims either:

1. last year's Ferrari was the second best car;

2. this year's Ferrari is not the second best car and is as good as last year's Ferrari; or

3. Massa is not driving as well this year as he did last year.

My preferred option is number 3.

EDIT: I think that Ferrari made the right decision. And I am sure 99% of people within Ferrari feel like they made the right decision.

I just don't think that the Massa yardstick works very well. All the evidence points towards Massa performing worse this season than before. I think the Alonso-Massa gap (as compared to the Kimi-Massa one) is a combination of Alonso being better than Kimi and the Massa that Alonso is facing being not as good as the Massa that Kimi faced.

Roller Coaster? Fascinating stuff ...

On track he was crap though. Guy that was taking the fight to Hamilton 2 years ago could hardly muster the resolve to race freakin Buemi. That's not Massa, sorry.

That's another way of putting it.

The Kimi of 2007 drove the F2007, the Kimi of 2008 drove the F2008. Go figure. Obviously it shows a lack of talent of being unable to drive cars with slight differences in handling. Drivers back then could rely on fuel strategies to save their asses, this year it's different or else the Red Bull drivers would've won the championship a while ago.

If Kimi drove in 2010... he'd probably be on the same level as Massa... plodding around while struggling to get tyres to work.

Whatever guys, I'm sure Kimi is laughing his ass off right now.

Ferrari / Santander spent enormous money to get Alonso - who in the end did not deliver, and now it is Luca who's seat is shaking.

So, karma is a bitch and they got what they deserved. Kimi on the other hand seems very happy in WRC with the Red Bull backing and huge Ferrari paycheck and doesn't seem to miss F1.

So to me it seems Kimi 1, Ferrari 0, Luca 0, Alonso 0, Domenicali 0.

Indeed. It showed a driver in emotional crisis. Not.


You're right, it's an imposter.

I don't think it would be the case. Kimi 2008 was just not as focused as usually and he did huge number of mistakes. Nothing to do with handling, imo. Kimi didn't like F2007 in first half of season too much iirc and yet he drove it well.

How can you say he wasn't focused? It's pretty obvious that the development of the car went in a direction that his talent couldn't reach. Kimi was lucky that the development of the F2007 went in a direction where his talent was able to go or he would've had a very miserable year. Massa was doing very well in 2007 too, but we all know who had the worse luck of the two.

The Massa we saw today is not the Massa of 2008. I don't think it's anything to do with his injury though, more to do with events at Hockenheim. I think that has affected him very badly psychologically...he looks as if he has completely lost his motivation. Sadly I think Massa now has to go as he is going to be of no help to Alonso in the future.

Alonso has done very well this season, but he did make it difficult for himself with the mistakes early in the season. He really should have won the WDC today but it really was not his fault...Ferrari stuffed up spectacularly with the strategy in a way that would never have happened under Ross Brawn.

how the hell do you know that?.you dont,its just your opinion

It's not just one thing, it's one on top of the other. First he nearly died, then he became a father which is the point in time in man's life when shit gets real then his team kinda kicked him to the curb cause they got a new prodigal son. End result Massa is a shadow of his former self. People that don't see that are people whose only agenda is to repeat Alonso: Best thing since sliced bread till they 're blue in the face

Massa has been poor all year long... the team were emotionally with him for his return at Bahrain and he was beaten so badly by Alonso there despite this.

As for EthanM's logic, maybe you haven't noticed but Alonso's beaten Massa by the same margin Schumacher beat Massa in 2006... and this is a new team for Alonso.

I know because he was slow!