QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 20 2009, 03:15) 
I'm not a Latino but....
where is the connection between this and the rest of your post?
Full Version: Massa: "Button is the weakest active champion"
where is the connection between this and the rest of your post?
Massa is right.
QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 20 2009, 03:19)
I really hope he can rediscover his form but it's going to be tough for him, he can do all the work on the simulator he wants but out on track it'll be a different matter altogether
people should understand that if Alonso is better than him he is going to get beaten regardless of whether he says these things or not.. I still cannot understand the connection some of you are making about what he says and his performance..
Massa just needed to complete the set, I guess. He's had a little dig at Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen - the 3 guys I thought would be his main competition for the title next year. Now there's been a bit of a change with Button going to McLaren instead of Kimi, I guess Felipe just wanted to have that base covered... 
I agree with Massa but it is kinda harsh
QUOTE (Steve W @ Nov 20 2009, 00:38)
I am stunned by Massa's comments as I have always thought of him as a fair and nice guy. However this is a rude and disrespectful comment from a man who knows how tough it is to fight for a world championship.
how rude
watching this forum..we are all rude because we all have opinions on driver's performance
however massa is not allowed to think alonso kimi and lewis are better than button
because if he thinks so, he is rude
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ Nov 19 2009, 22:46)
people should understand that if Alonso is better than him he is going to get beaten regardless of whether he says these things or not.. I still cannot understand the connection some of you are making about what he says and his performance..
I'm not making any connection between his comments and his performance
I really do hope he can come back the same driver
QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 19 2009, 15:04)
how rude
watching this forum..we are all rude because we all have opinions on driver's performance
however massa is not allowed to think alonso kimi and lewis are better than button
because if he thinks so, he is rude
There are some things better left unsaid . . . especially when you're an active participant. watching this forum..we are all rude because we all have opinions on driver's performance
however massa is not allowed to think alonso kimi and lewis are better than button
because if he thinks so, he is rude
QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 18 2009, 23:07)
What happened to the nice, respectful Felipe ?
He knows his days are numbered at Ferrari after they hired Alonso
QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 19 2009, 20:04)
how rude
watching this forum..we are all rude because we all have opinions on driver's performance
however massa is not allowed to think alonso kimi and lewis are better than button
because if he thinks so, he is rude
watching this forum..we are all rude because we all have opinions on driver's performance
however massa is not allowed to think alonso kimi and lewis are better than button
because if he thinks so, he is rude
As outsiders - hiding behind the veil of the internet - we can say the first thing that comes to our mind.
Actually being in F1 with all the corporate and PR responsibilities as well as actually having to be on the same track as the person you just bashed means that you have to use some tact and common sense.
If anyone here actually said what they think of all of their co-workers they would make quite a poisonous workplace.
Making comments like that Massa is setting himself up as the "bad guy"
QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Nov 20 2009, 04:22)
There are some things better left unsaid . . . especially when you're an active participant.
because?
no one has a good reasonable answer to this, can you give it a shot. ?
QUOTE (GerardF1 @ Nov 20 2009, 04:31)
As outsiders - hiding behind the veil of the internet - we can say the first thing that comes to our mind.
Actually being in F1 with all the corporate and PR responsibilities as well as actually having to be on the same track as the person you just bashed means that you have to use some tact and common sense.
If anyone here actually said what they think of all of their co-workers they would make quite a poisonous workplace.
Making comments like that Massa is setting himself up as the "bad guy"
Actually being in F1 with all the corporate and PR responsibilities as well as actually having to be on the same track as the person you just bashed means that you have to use some tact and common sense.
If anyone here actually said what they think of all of their co-workers they would make quite a poisonous workplace.
Making comments like that Massa is setting himself up as the "bad guy"
you are assuming every other driver out there thinks like you. What if they think like me ?
Massa's got a free pass because he's been so unlucky the past couple of years.
Could have won 2007 and 2008 WDC.
Had an accident in 2009.
Could have won 2007 and 2008 WDC.
Had an accident in 2009.
QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 19 2009, 23:15)
I'm not a Latino but this I assume is the logic he's trying to build.
I know. It's dificult to understand them, they are almost like a different species.
QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 20 2009, 00:15)
I'm not making any connection between his comments and his performance
I really do hope he can come back the same driver
I really do hope he can come back the same driver
He can come back even faster for all we know.
Massa's got balls and I'm loving it. Looking forward to a competitive Ferrari 2010. Take on Vettel Felipe baby, if you can handle Alonso first.
QUOTE (mkay @ Nov 19 2009, 23:55)
Massa's got a free pass because he's been so unlucky the past couple of years.
Could have won 2007 and 2008 WDC.
Had an accident in 2009.
Could have won 2007 and 2008 WDC.
Had an accident in 2009.
If Red Bull were as quick in 2007/2008, then Webber or DC could have been WDC.
Could have has no point.
Didn't is the point.
At the point of his accident, he had no chance of winning.
If you want to talk about "unlucky", how about Jenson driving the worst car in 2007/2008?
Massa was incredibly lucky to have driven the best car for 2 years, (still, he didn't win the WDC).
Am I the only getting Deja Vu from all the comments people are making on Massa?
People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.
As for Massa never wining a WDC comments, can I borrow your time machine to see next week lottery wining numbers please?
On topic, Massa is spot on, Button is by FAR the weakest current WDC.
People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.
As for Massa never wining a WDC comments, can I borrow your time machine to see next week lottery wining numbers please?
On topic, Massa is spot on, Button is by FAR the weakest current WDC.
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ Nov 19 2009, 14:40)
ok, so can you honestly tell me without blinking that Button is better or as good as Kimi, Alonso and Lewis based on what you have seen from their racing careers. If your answer is yes then we can move on and I have nothing else to say .. If your answer is no, then what is the problem with Massa saying the exact same thing that you are thinking..
Button beat all three drivers at least on 1 occasion in their careers, so why shouldn't he?
And Massa's comments are about as absurd as the posters on this forum bitching about Button's WDC being undeserved.
Such arrogance makes Massa look like a spoiled idiot.
QUOTE (Tifosi90 @ Nov 19 2009, 21:02)
Am I the only getting Deja Vu from all the comments people are making on Massa?
People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.
As for Massa never wining a WDC comments, can I borrow your time machine to see next week lottery wining numbers please?
On topic, Massa is spot on, Button is by FAR the weakest current WDC.
People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.
As for Massa never wining a WDC comments, can I borrow your time machine to see next week lottery wining numbers please?
On topic, Massa is spot on, Button is by FAR the weakest current WDC.
And why is Button a weak WDC? because he didn't dominate like Michael did in the past?
Seriously, this whole thing about "weaker or stronger WDC" is just nothing more than pathetic semantics. A driver is here to win the WDC, whether he wins it by one win or 18 wins, that doesn't matter. He still a deserving WDC, and by default was the best driver that year. Everything else is just opinions...
QUOTE (Slyder @ Nov 20 2009, 06:21)
And why is Button a weak WDC? because he didn't dominate like Michael did in the past?
Seriously, this whole thing about "weaker or stronger WDC" is just nothing more than pathetic semantics. A driver is here to win the WDC, whether he wins it by one win or 18 wins, that doesn't matter. He still a deserving WDC, and by default was the best driver that year. Everything else is just opinions...
Seriously, this whole thing about "weaker or stronger WDC" is just nothing more than pathetic semantics. A driver is here to win the WDC, whether he wins it by one win or 18 wins, that doesn't matter. He still a deserving WDC, and by default was the best driver that year. Everything else is just opinions...
You're pissing into the wind mate, JB could've won every race last year, lapped everyone got out of his car at the start of the last lap and pushed his Brawn around for the win and he'd still be undeserving to some
Yeah, they'd be whinning that it was all the car and Jenson was just the monkey driving it...
QUOTE (Tifosi90 @ Nov 20 2009, 04:02)
Am I the only getting Deja Vu from all the comments people are making on Massa?
People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.
People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.
The epic logic fail is placing Kimi and Alonso next to each other
Thankfully this wont be disputable after next year.
QUOTE (Slyder @ Nov 20 2009, 06:21)
And why is Button a weak WDC? because he didn't dominate like Michael did in the past?
Coz he got dominated for half a season by his old team mate.
QUOTE (vera @ Nov 20 2009, 06:51)
Coz he got dominated for half a season by his old team mate.
He dominated that old team mate a lot more in the first half than he was dominated in the second, he won more races than Lewis did in his title season and Kimi before him
Are they undeserving ?
QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 20 2009, 06:55)
He dominated that old team mate a lot more in the first half than he was dominated in the second, he won more races than Lewis did in his title season and Kimi before him
Are they undeserving ?
Are they undeserving ?
If you factor in bad luck they dominated each other equally, the only difference is Button had access to a dominant car in the first part of the season. The only valid comparision with drivers in different seasons is how they all compared to their team mates. Lewis dominated Heikki so his world championship was much more convincing. Kimi's less so. Buttons even less so.
QUOTE (vera @ Nov 20 2009, 07:01)
If you factor in bad luck they dominated each other equally, the only difference is Button had access to a dominant car in the first part of the season. The only valid comparision with drivers in different seasons is how they all compared to their team mates. Lewis dominated Heikki so his world championship was much more convincing. Kimi's less so. Buttons even less so.
Rubens > Heikki IMO
QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 20 2009, 07:04)
Rubens > Heikki IMO
Even if that was true do you really think it would be by much? Heikki is no chump hes proven to be a quality driver before he joined Mclaren. He had a good second half of his rookie season. People talk as if hes some sort of talentless pay driver. He will look good again in another team with a normal team mate.
No fair - Massa Wanted to be the Weakest Active Champion
QUOTE (Tifosi90 @ Nov 20 2009, 05:02)
On topic, Massa is spot on, Button is by FAR the weakest current WDC.
Well he is the ONLY current WDC...
QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 20 2009, 08:41)
Well he is the ONLY current WDC...
QUOTE (cleobis @ Nov 19 2009, 03:01)
I mean...for some reason Brawn/Mercedes didn't look that desperate about keeping Button...
Actually, they've put quite a lot of effort to keep Button in the team, just look at money they were ready to give him.
QUOTE (whatto999 @ Nov 20 2009, 09:16)
Actually, they've put quite a lot of effort to keep Button in the team, just look at money they were ready to give him.
Then they should have put that offer to him from the start instead of saying they couldn't afford to give him more. They were stringing him along because they didn't think he had any other options.
QUOTE (Duck of Death @ Nov 20 2009, 09:13)
No fair - Massa Wanted to be the Weakest Active Champion
he couldn't be the weakest since he would have at leaast beaten his teamate (kimi)
think about it before you post
it saves the embarassement
QUOTE (OnyxF1 @ Nov 19 2009, 05:31)
Hamilton: Had a WDC capable car in 2007, 2008. That's 2 out of 3 years he's been in F1.
Alonso: Had a WDC capable car in 2005, 2006 and 2007. That's 3 out of 8 years he's been in F1.
Raikkonen: Had a WDC capable car in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008. That's 4 out of 9 years he's been in F1.
Button: Had a WDC capable car in 2009. That's 1 out of 10 years he's been in F1.
Alonso: Had a WDC capable car in 2005, 2006 and 2007. That's 3 out of 8 years he's been in F1.
Raikkonen: Had a WDC capable car in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008. That's 4 out of 9 years he's been in F1.
Button: Had a WDC capable car in 2009. That's 1 out of 10 years he's been in F1.
And Massa: Had a WDC capable car in 2006,2007, 2008. That's 3 out of 7 years he's been in F1. But havent had it.
Completely agree with him. I view Button as one of the weakest WDC's in the last 20 years.
QUOTE (Pato @ Nov 20 2009, 16:52)
Completely agree with him. I view Button as one of the weakest WDC's in the last 20 years.
Based on what?
In his first season at BAR Jenson impressed and was the only one to keep the dominating McLarens worried. After that he has been in bad cars. This year he dominated in the early season and for the most part had the upper hand over Barrichello in the same car. He won the WDC one race early with 11 points advantage. Hamilton won it in the last corner and with one point. Hamilton have only been in good F1 cars.
Be that as it may, we will all have our different views on who is good and bad etc.
What I find a bit sad is Massa's need to say things like this. He impressed me and most of the F1 world after his gracious way of tackling the disappointment of Brazil 2008. Now, he just seems to have a big need to prove himself and tell everyone how good he is. He has every right to say what he thinks and is entitled to his opinions. It's just so sad that he needs to prove himself or belittle the others achievements like this. It's a bit like Trulli and his photo dossier (haven't heard much more about that..).
Massa is going nuts.
He challenged the ATP's #36 Bellucci [not Monica]
http://www2.uol.com.br/tenisbrasil/diaadia...as-de-tenis.htm
He challenged the ATP's #36 Bellucci [not Monica]
http://www2.uol.com.br/tenisbrasil/diaadia...as-de-tenis.htm
Are you serious? He is having some fun, and you are calling it "going nuts" ?
What the hell are you talking about
?
Another "strange" thread title (Lewis, Fred and Kimi are better than Jenson --> Jenson is weakest), but I'm happy that more and more drivers are speaking their minds. I'm totally bored with PR robots, so every exception is welcome.
?QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 20 2009, 18:59)
In his first season at BAR Jenson impressed and was the only one to keep the dominating McLarens worried.
What the hell are you talking about
?Another "strange" thread title (Lewis, Fred and Kimi are better than Jenson --> Jenson is weakest), but I'm happy that more and more drivers are speaking their minds. I'm totally bored with PR robots, so every exception is welcome
.
I rate Button on the same level as Massa Massa should concetrate on overtaking practices in the Ferrari simulator in stead of bashing a WDC while he is nothing better. 
Massa should concetrate on overtaking practices in the Ferrari simulator in stead of bashing a WDC while he is nothing better.
QUOTE (Mastah @ Nov 20 2009, 18:42)
Are you serious? He is having some fun, and you are calling it "going nuts" ?
What the hell are you talking about?
Another "strange" thread title (Lewis, Fred and Kimi are better than Jenson --> Jenson is weakest), but I'm happy that more and more drivers are speaking their minds. I'm totally bored with PR robots, so every exception is welcome.
?What the hell are you talking about
?Another "strange" thread title (Lewis, Fred and Kimi are better than Jenson --> Jenson is weakest), but I'm happy that more and more drivers are speaking their minds. I'm totally bored with PR robots, so every exception is welcome
.I don't know why but Felipe reminds me of the devil in your avatar
QUOTE (Mastah @ Nov 20 2009, 23:42)
Are you serious? He is having some fun, and you are calling it "going nuts" ?
?fun?,,try telling that to jenson..
felipe baby was pretty insecure since the very beginning to be honest..hes just speaking it all out now.
I was talking about tennis match, I think it's pretty obvious.
QUOTE (Mastah @ Nov 20 2009, 19:42)
What the hell are you talking about ?
?My bad, I meant his second season at BAR (and it was Ferrari not McLaren he was hot on the heels of).
QUOTE
In 2004, Button and BAR-Honda made significant progress, and BAR finished second in the Constructors' Championship. Button scored his first ever podium finish with a third place in the Malaysian Grand Prix, and added 9 more throughout that season. Button and BAR's first pole position came in April at the 2004 San Marino Grand Prix, in which he finished second. He ended the season third overall, a then career-best, and only behind the two dominant Ferrari drivers, with 85 points.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenson_Button
So when he has had a good car, Button has delivered before 2009 as well.
QUOTE (Lewis @ Nov 20 2009, 19:44)
I rate Button on the same level as Massa Massa should concetrate on overtaking practices in the Ferrari simulator in stead of bashing a WDC while he is nothing better.
Massa should concetrate on overtaking practices in the Ferrari simulator in stead of bashing a WDC while he is nothing better. This!
QUOTE (vera @ Nov 19 2009, 23:51)
Coz he got dominated for half a season by his old team mate.
Why is that a big issue? He had a huge points advantage, plus the others started to catch up. When Button had his struggles, he did the next best thing, bring the car home in the points. which he did, and his efforts meant he stayed ahead, and and he STILL beat Barrichello and Vettel, which in the end is all that matters.
QUOTE (Lewis @ Nov 20 2009, 18:44)
I rate Button on the same level as Massa Massa should concetrate on overtaking practices in the Ferrari simulator in stead of bashing a WDC while he is nothing better.
Massa should concetrate on overtaking practices in the Ferrari simulator in stead of bashing a WDC while he is nothing better. Ignoring the overtaking remark (Hungary '09 anyone?) I agree with the rest of this post. IMHO Jenson is slightly more talented than Massa and has the WDC to show for his time in a top car.
QUOTE (OnyxF1 @ Nov 19 2009, 12:31)
This thread has reminded me of why I hate driver worshippers. Let's do a little calculation shall we? Let's see how many potentially WDC winning cars Raikkonen, Hamilton and Alonso have had and compare it to Button. Maybe then we will realise why Button had a "mediocre career".
Hamilton: Had a WDC capable car in 2007, 2008. That's 2 out of 3 years he's been in F1.
Alonso: Had a WDC capable car in 2005, 2006 and 2007. That's 3 out of 8 years he's been in F1.
Raikkonen: Had a WDC capable car in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008. That's 4 out of 9 years he's been in F1.
Button: Had a WDC capable car in 2009. That's 1 out of 10 years he's been in F1.
And to all those who say that Button had a poor second half to the season, what about Hamilton's messy and inconsistent season last year? Not to mention that he managed very little this year before McLaren sorted out the MP4-24. Alonso? Was nowhere this year in a crap car or at the beginning of last year before Renault made the R29 come good and even then one of Alonso's wins was due to cheating. Also remember that Alonso won 6 races in the first half of 2006 but only 1 in the second. Raikkonen? Crapped out a potential WDC in 2008 and lost to... Massa, who MS destroyed in 2006.
It's very much about the car and not so much to do with the drivers (although they are a minor factor as we see due to teammate battles). Button did what he had to do this year. He won the WDC with a car that was capable of it and beat his teammate. You can't ask a driver to do any more than that. Any speculation that Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen would have won 14 races in this year's Brawn is just that: speculation. How do a bunch of frustrated internet fanboys know that the Brawn's handling would have suited any of those drivers?
Hamilton: Had a WDC capable car in 2007, 2008. That's 2 out of 3 years he's been in F1.
Alonso: Had a WDC capable car in 2005, 2006 and 2007. That's 3 out of 8 years he's been in F1.
Raikkonen: Had a WDC capable car in 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008. That's 4 out of 9 years he's been in F1.
Button: Had a WDC capable car in 2009. That's 1 out of 10 years he's been in F1.
And to all those who say that Button had a poor second half to the season, what about Hamilton's messy and inconsistent season last year? Not to mention that he managed very little this year before McLaren sorted out the MP4-24. Alonso? Was nowhere this year in a crap car or at the beginning of last year before Renault made the R29 come good and even then one of Alonso's wins was due to cheating. Also remember that Alonso won 6 races in the first half of 2006 but only 1 in the second. Raikkonen? Crapped out a potential WDC in 2008 and lost to... Massa, who MS destroyed in 2006.
It's very much about the car and not so much to do with the drivers (although they are a minor factor as we see due to teammate battles). Button did what he had to do this year. He won the WDC with a car that was capable of it and beat his teammate. You can't ask a driver to do any more than that. Any speculation that Hamilton, Alonso or Raikkonen would have won 14 races in this year's Brawn is just that: speculation. How do a bunch of frustrated internet fanboys know that the Brawn's handling would have suited any of those drivers?
in 2003 mclaren was alot slower than ferrari. Kimi only won 1 or 2 races and then made alot of podiums. He was consistent but not a real contender against schumi's ferrari.
in 2005 the car wasnt a contender because its not only speed! Reliability also counts and the car was broken all the time. he made 7 wins and other 5 podiums and still finished second because of DNF and penalties due to broken engines. He couldnt have done better himself in those 2 years.
So is not that linear as you put it, and imo kimi only had 2 real chances, the 2 years with ferrari.
yes i am a kimi fan but nevertheless i think i have a point.
"What I find a bit sad is Massa's need to say things like this. He impressed me and most of the F1 world after his gracious way of tackling the disappointment of Brazil 2008. Now, he just seems to have a big need to prove himself and tell everyone how good he is. He has every right to say what he thinks and is entitled to his opinions. It's just so sad that he needs to prove himself or belittle the others achievements like this. It's a bit like Trulli and his photo dossier (haven't heard much more about that..)."
Agree completely. Posterity will remember that Button won the WDC. Details and envious comments will be forgotten.
(I am a Ferrari fan -- like Massa a lot, and don't particularly care for Button.)
Agree completely. Posterity will remember that Button won the WDC. Details and envious comments will be forgotten.
(I am a Ferrari fan -- like Massa a lot, and don't particularly care for Button.)
lets cut to the chase because this is getting out of hand. Button was given the boot to make way for montoya and then for alonos at renaulr. If he had been that good he would have driven a winning car in all those years. That's the bottom line , the best drivers always end up with the best teams. Button delivered this is true but would he have delivered if his opponents were kimi, alonso, lewis or schumacher - I doubt it.
he is still in F1 and with mclaren so that is a good thing , if he can beat Lewis next year a lot of people would think different of him. If he didn't think he had anything to prove he would never had signed for mclaren.
he is still in F1 and with mclaren so that is a good thing , if he can beat Lewis next year a lot of people would think different of him. If he didn't think he had anything to prove he would never had signed for mclaren.
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