The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > Massa: "Button is the weakest active champion"

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BMW_F1

Nov 21 2009, 22:12

QUOTE (P123 @ Nov 22 2009, 02:57)

Rubens had the same car, yet wasn't able to match what Button did with it. Vettel and Webber also had race winning cars yet were unable to match what Button did. Whether he is lucky or not to have a car as competitive as the Brawn (somebody has to have the pace setting car, why not Button?) doesn't take away from the fact that he is a deserving WDC. He could have the luxury a half season wobble and still they couldn't catch him such was his dominance of the early races.

Massa may be correct in that he isn't quite in the same class as the other three champions, but he is still a deserving champion.

and he didn't say he was not a deserving champion. He actually said that the new mclaren pairing will be fantastic.

DFV

Nov 22 2009, 13:42

QUOTE (Atticus @ Nov 21 2009, 23:11)

This is the strangest thread. BB's have become just like mainstream media with sensationalist thread titles!

for the record,
Weaker is the comparative form of the adjective Weak
Better is the comparative form of the adjective good.

Now if the thread starter's translation skills are the better than his/her thread titling skills; then my understanding of what Massa said is Button is GOOD but Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi are "BETTER". Nothing earth-shattering.
But then again that would only have generated 1 page of responses.

Now if I behave like most here and choose to only read the title I would be really mad, because, my understanding would be that all the active champions are WEAK and Button is the WEAKEST!!! imagine the pages.......
Anyway as you were..

Sakae

Nov 22 2009, 13:47

QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 19 2009, 11:07)

Well Felipe, Jenson has something you don't and probably never will, a WDC

What happened to the nice, respectful Felipe ?

Next question on my mind is, whether Massa knows something more about racing than you?

Sakae

Nov 22 2009, 13:50

QUOTE (WebBerK @ Nov 22 2009, 05:55)

Massa was the only one to spend years in the Ferrari Academy, receiving lessons from the master Schumacher.
Massa had three years with clearly WDC capable cars, from 2005-2008, but still not capable of putting everything together to clinch the title.

Nice turnover, but thread title still implies that we are thinking about Jenson's racing qualities, not Massa's.

Borat

Nov 22 2009, 14:31

As someone who has seen this type of brain damage before it does have a similar feel to it, the loss of judgment.

From the little I know it can slowly repair itself, if this is the case then it will be interesting to see how it effects his driving, as someone said once the blood starts pumping will he make some crazy moves.. ?

WebBerK

Nov 22 2009, 16:27

QUOTE (MiPe @ Nov 22 2009, 11:50)

Nice turnover, but thread title still implies that we are thinking about Jenson's racing qualities, not Massa's.

Wut

Are you a New Secret Moderator in Disguise ?

With all due respect, I think you're wrong.
This thread is actually a Massa bashing thread and Fabs, the fire... ehhh... thread starter posted a girlly gossip about a Briton WDC in a Briton forum.
This thread is not news and totally irrelevant.

Fabs has just put honey over a Massa picture and is enjoying what they flies are doing over it.

Chezrome

Nov 22 2009, 16:40

I don't know how good Button is and will be in comparison with Hamilton. All I know is that when he drove in shitcars like the Honda, everytime I talked to people who were or had been active in high classes of motorsport (like Tim Coronel, Huub Rothengatter, Jan Lammers, and Jos Verstappen) and I mentioned Button, those fellow drivers started to sigh. 'He is so smooth, he is that good, how terrible is it that such a driver doesn't drive in a topcar, if only, if only...' Jos Verstappen once drove half a Grand Prix behind Button in a Grand Prix (2000 or something) and said: 'The guy was 21. 21! And his lines were so consistent and smooth.'

Perhaps Button is smooth, consistent and still a little slower than Alonso or Hamilton. But that Massa says stuff like that (if he said it all),is, well....

Anssi

Nov 22 2009, 16:43

He's smooth - but he also looked soft to me when he had the good car back in 2004. He looked soft when someone was overtaking him. He did finish 3rd in the season - but I was disappointed many times when he was battling for track position. I hoped he would have been more aggressive.

GIBF1

Nov 22 2009, 16:49

QUOTE (MiPe @ Nov 22 2009, 13:47)

Massa knows something more about racing than you?

No shit Sherlock

fastdriver

Nov 22 2009, 19:16

QUOTE (Tifosi90 @ Nov 20 2009, 04:02)

Am I the only getting Deja Vu from all the comments people are making on Massa?

People said the EXACT same thing about Kimi, that he is going to wipe the floor with Massa and look how that turned out and now people are saying the same about Alonso. Clearly people think that Alonso must be in a complete different league compared to Kimi but when you ask them about who the best drivers in F1 are at the moment they always place Kimi and Alonso next to each other. That's called EPIC logic FAIL.

As for Massa never wining a WDC comments, can I borrow your time machine to see next week lottery wining numbers please?

On topic, Massa is spot on, Button is by FAR the weakest current WDC.

I thought JB is the current WDC?, so when you say weakest, who is he being compared to? is there another 'current' WDC?

maybe my English is the problem....

SRi130Brett

Nov 22 2009, 20:25

Its one more world title than you Felipe, and you couldnt even win it when the FIA were doing all they could to help you last year!!!

Jog on son I say!

Muz Bee

Nov 22 2009, 20:56

I've said my bit about how unwise it is to criticise the ability of another top driver so Felipe can deal with the pressure of that when the racing starts.

As for Button - the WDC is a worthy winner in the sport. He ALWAYS is. Look back over the champions and single out a few who maybe at first look weren't top shelf. The impression you may get immediately is "lucky to win WDC" or some such sentiment. Look into the path to the title and other events and you will usually find other factors which add respect.

Take Jacques Villeneuve. Not one of my favourite drivers or throw-shit mouths in baggy overalls. He did win some races. He did stand up to Schumacher and clashed wheels with him. He is ballsy. He did win impressively in Indycars including the 500. No bad drivers do all that. He was lucky to be in the WIlliams when it was a very good car but all champions need some luck.

Go right back through history of WDC and you will find similar cases. My point is EVERY WDC is a worthy WDC. Some drivers were saying in 1982 that Rosberg wouldn't be a worthy champion (before he won so impressively at Dijon) because he was leading the title race by a lot of consistent placings. Excuse me but wasn't Rosberg one of the most aggressive (along with Gilles) drivers that year. It's stupid to say this driver isn't so good and that driver is better than him and all that. It's even dumber if you're a driver who has to prove that next time you get into your car - you better not get beaten by them!

MikeTekRacing

Nov 22 2009, 21:45

QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 22 2009, 22:56)

As for Button - the WDC is a worthy winner in the sport. He ALWAYS is.

of course he is
has massa sad he isn't ??

Muz Bee

Nov 22 2009, 22:18

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 23 2009, 10:45)

of course he is
has massa sad he isn't ??

Of course he has unless I've read the wrong translation. It's an unwritten rule of competition you don't degrade other competitors - disagree on incidents and issues sure, but degrade their ability you turn the spotlight on yourself.

Felipe has lost his perspective on reality lately, he will be unlikely to return to the form which almost won him the title last year. People who haven't experienced serious trauma tend to down play the time it takes to recover.....

MikeTekRacing

Nov 22 2009, 22:18

QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 23 2009, 00:18)

quote please

Muz Bee

Nov 22 2009, 22:25

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 23 2009, 11:18)

quote please

He has just degraded the winner of the 2009 WDC by saying he is the weakest WDC. Is that sufficient or was Felipe misquoted? THE EFFECT of what he has said is that Button is not a deserving WDC.

When you or I on some internet forum choose to make similar comments it doesn't carry the same effect. Fellow competitors should NEVER get into a grading battle, it backfires. It's like the old point the finger rule - look down at your pointed finger and see there are three fingers pointing back at you.

MikeTekRacing

Nov 22 2009, 22:33

please quote him on saying he doen't deserve this years WDC or STFU

stop putting words in his mouth!

Buttoneer

Nov 22 2009, 22:54

QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 22 2009, 22:25)

He has just degraded the winner of the 2009 WDC by saying he is the weakest WDC. Is that sufficient or was Felipe misquoted? THE EFFECT of what he has said is that Button is not a deserving WDC.

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 22 2009, 22:33)

please quote him on saying he doen't deserve this years WDC or STFU

stop putting words in his mouth!

It's worth quoting because it's clear you've not read it. Muz doesn't say he said 'Jenson is not deserving' he's said that's the effect of what he said. Disagree with that if you like but it's clear you're not going to get your quote and it's clear he doesn't have to STFU either.

Atticus

Nov 23 2009, 01:27

QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 22 2009, 17:25)

He has just degraded the winner of the 2009 WDC by saying he is the weakest WDC. Is that sufficient or was Felipe misquoted? THE EFFECT of what he has said is that Button is not a deserving WDC.

QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Nov 22 2009, 17:54)

But then again neither does Massa say Button is the WEAKEST! that is a made up title by a BB writer. The effect of what Massa says is Button is GOOD, but Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi are BETTER. It is obvious in this bash-intensive controversy seeking world that many would choose to read that as saying Button does not deserve it, it allows the bash fest to continue.

For the record, Button deserved his title, but I think Schumacher, Senna, and Fangio are better......

GIBF1

Nov 23 2009, 01:34

QUOTE (Atticus @ Nov 23 2009, 01:27)

Schumacher, Senna, and Fangio are better......

I disagree

Muz Bee

Nov 23 2009, 02:00

QUOTE (Atticus @ Nov 23 2009, 14:27)

For the record, Button deserved his title, but I think Schumacher, Senna, and Fangio are better......

And, with respect, who are you? You are OK to "think" here such a thing, expressed, as an opinion. You aren't one of Jenson Button's peers. Your opinion, like mine, accounts for nothing in F1 circles.

My point that MTR couldn't recognise is that Massa makes himself look foolish in degrading an opponent's ability. He is correct in that there is no quotation available that Felipe said something like "Button didn't deserve 2009 championship" but he argues semantics.

Muz Bee

Nov 23 2009, 02:17

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 23 2009, 11:33)

please quote him on saying he doen't deserve this years WDC or STFU

stop putting words in his mouth!

Can we lower the temperature of our disgreement Mike.....

boomer1

Nov 23 2009, 05:02

Massa needs to get back to working 80-hour weeks and not having time to make stupid pronouncements to the press.

Arion

Nov 23 2009, 05:07

QUOTE (boomer1 @ Nov 23 2009, 06:02)

Massa needs to get back to working 80-hour weeks and not having time to make stupid pronouncements to the press.

I'm sure he'd love that, but testing doesn't start until Feb, and the press still need to sell papers.

velgajski1

Nov 23 2009, 07:06

QUOTE (meat @ Nov 21 2009, 19:54)

I disagree. He just got lucky with the Brawn cars.

Its like saying he was unlucky not having a good car before.

MikeTekRacing

Nov 23 2009, 08:37

QUOTE (Muz Bee @ Nov 23 2009, 04:17)

Can we lower the temperature of our disgreement Mike.....

no we can't as you still imply he said button doesn't deserve the title but you don't provide the quote to sustain it..since he didn't say that, obviously.

MikeTekRacing

Nov 23 2009, 08:39

QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Nov 23 2009, 00:54)

if you say it's raining outside and I say that the effect of that is that button is a poor driver wouldn't it be the same?

Buttoneer

Nov 23 2009, 10:06

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 23 2009, 08:39)

if you say it's raining outside and I say that the effect of that is that button is a poor driver wouldn't it be the same?

Would that discussion be worth a 'STFU' from you too?

DFV

Nov 23 2009, 11:43

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 23 2009, 09:39)

if you say it's raining outside and I say that the effect of that is that button is a poor driver wouldn't it be the same?

That's not really comparable, is it? What has rain outside got anything to do with Button as a driver?

If you put it another way; It's raining outside! One of the effects of that would be that it was wet outside!

Massa says that Button is worse than Kimi, Alonso and Lewis (or that they are better than Button). How can that mean anything else than "Button is the weaker WDC of the active WDC drivers" ?

No, Massa didn't say those exact words. But that's the meaning of the words he said.

If you compare 4 race horses and someone said that horse A, B and C is quicker than horse D. That would be the same as saying that horse D is the slowest of the four horses. Right?

So, when Massa says that Kimi, Lewis and Fernando are better or stronger than Button, that has the same meaning as saying that Button is weaker than Kimi, Lewis and Fernando.

Atticus

Nov 23 2009, 12:52

QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 23 2009, 06:43)

Nope not really, words carry meaning beyond mere ranking.

"Of the three 100m runners, Asafa Powell is FAST, Tsyon Gay is FASTER and Usain Bolt is the FASTEST."
"Of the three 100m runners Usain Bolt is SLOW, Tsyon Gay is SLOWER and Asafa Powell is the SLOWEST."

DFV

Nov 23 2009, 13:55

Well, to go bak on topic again.

Nico Rosberg was asked who was the strongest competitor of Lewis and Jenson:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80317

QUOTE

Which of the two of them is tougher competition?

NR: That's difficult to say. We'll see next year when they are up against each other. I'm not sure. I raced against Lewis, so I can say for sure that Lewis is a great driver and Jenson is a bit more difficult for me to judge but he is certainly a fantastic driver.

Chezrome

Nov 23 2009, 17:52

QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 23 2009, 14:55)

Well, to go bak on topic again.

Nico Rosberg was asked who was the strongest competitor of Lewis and Jenson:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80317

Exactly.

David M. Kane

Nov 23 2009, 19:02

Felipe baby, just drive the car.

Anomnader

Nov 23 2009, 19:05

Do we yet know if Massa is fit to drive next year?

Jones Foyer

Nov 23 2009, 19:06

With Jenson and Lewis in relatively equal cars next year, we'll be able to tell if Massa was right or wrong in his assessment. But he runs the risk of being very wrong next season- kind of idiocy to say something like that.

highdownforce

Nov 23 2009, 19:09

QUOTE (Anomnader @ Nov 23 2009, 17:05)

Do we yet know if Massa is fit to drive next year?

The FIA's examination says he's fit.

Clatter

Nov 23 2009, 19:12

QUOTE (Anomnader @ Nov 23 2009, 19:05)

Do we yet know if Massa is fit to drive next year?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE5991YP20091010
Physically yes. The rest we will only know next year.

Sunflower

Nov 23 2009, 19:53

Has Button responded to Massa's comments at all. I wonder if any of the media asked his thoughts about what Massa said.

Brawn BGP 001

Nov 23 2009, 19:54

QUOTE (Sunflower @ Nov 23 2009, 19:53)

Has Button responded to Massa's comments at all. I wonder if any of the media asked his thoughts about what Massa said.

I don't think he will care TBH.

Anomnader

Nov 23 2009, 19:55

QUOTE (Sunflower @ Nov 23 2009, 19:53)

Has Button responded to Massa's comments at all. I wonder if any of the media asked his thoughts about what Massa said.

Having just won the WDC and just moved teams Button has probably got better things to do with his time then bother responding to it.

Clatter

Nov 23 2009, 20:00

QUOTE (Sunflower @ Nov 23 2009, 19:53)

Has Button responded to Massa's comments at all. I wonder if any of the media asked his thoughts about what Massa said.

Think you will find this hasn't even registered with most people. It's only a few who are trying to make a big issue of it.

RodrigoL

Nov 23 2009, 20:03

QUOTE (Anomnader @ Nov 23 2009, 19:55)

Having just won the WDC and just moved teams Button has probably got better things to do with his time then bother responding to it.

Indeed. Plus, that bird of his...

Buttoneer

Nov 23 2009, 20:07

I think Jenson is pretty relaxed about this sort of stuff. He was quite cool about Flavs porcarra comments earlier this year. of course maybe those words are what has driven him into the arms of McLaren...

highdownforce

Nov 23 2009, 20:15

QUOTE (Brawn BGP 001 @ Nov 23 2009, 17:54)

I don't think he will care TBH.

If Button cares or not, it doesn't matters, he can not answer this one.
Or he would have to imply the other of the active champions is weaker.

DFV

Nov 23 2009, 22:13

QUOTE (cardin @ Nov 21 2009, 14:57)

As a Massa supporter I have to agree with you. His personality changed. He seems to have injured that part of the brain that filters what one say. He's not thinking of the consequences anymore. The brazilian press have noticed that and is using him to cause sensation. It's quite sickening.

According to Giedd/Blumenthal (UCLA 2002):

QUOTE

The last area to mature in the brain is the part where social evaluations, considering of alternatives, planning the future and keep the brain in check is being done. This area is the frontal lobes and it matures first at the age of around 25.

QUOTE

The "limbic center" in the brain, which controls emotions and memory, is developed earlier than the frontal lobes. This means that (for a person under 25) emotions are more likely to be what controls a persons behaviour, since the ability to control the emotions have not been fully developed. In reality this means that a young person has a limited ability to plan, perceive, comprehend, evaluate and reflect on risk situations in road traffic scenarios.

If damage to the frontal lobe can have the same effect I have no idea, and I also have no medical evidence to say that Massa is having any side effects of his injury. But if it is damage to the frontal lobes that has been the reason for Massa's comments lately, maybe we will also see a new driver in Massa next season (not just as a loose cannon at interviews)...???

Slyder

Nov 23 2009, 23:35

QUOTE (Tifosi90 @ Nov 20 2009, 18:49)

You just don't seem to get it. Here I will write it as simply as possible.

2005 - Alonso beats Kimi to the WDC. Kimi was already considered one of the best in F1 at that time and many were only waiting when he will win his first WDC. Alonso also smashed Fisi his team mate by 75 points.

2006 - Alonso beats Michael to the WDC. Michael is easily one of the best drivers ever in F1. Alonso again smashes Fisi by 62 points.

2007 - Kimi beats Alonso & Hamilton & Massa. Kimi beats a two times champion and also beats Hamilton who many considered a world champion in waiting. Kimi also beat Massa by 16 points.

2008 - Hamilton beats Massa & Kimi to the WDC. Hamilton beats a world champion and Massa to the tittle.

2009 - Button beats Rubens & Vettel to the WDC. Rubens is considered by many to be an average number 2 driver which he was his whole career. Vettel is considered by many to be very good but he had a bad season with driver mistakes and car unreability. Button beat Rubens by 18 points.

See where this is going? All the current WDC's had a much harder time racing against much better drivers than Rubens or Vettel. Alonso beat Kimi and Michael, Kimi beat Alonso, Hamilton, Massa and Hamilton beat Massa & Kimi to the tittle.

There's a big difference between Rubens, Vettel and the rest of drivers I have mentioned. What I am trying to say Button had an easy competition compared to what Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton had when they won their WDC's.

There's a big difference beating an average number 2 driver like Rubens or beating a 7 time world champion don't you think?

Oh please, So you're going to say that Hill's championship in 1996 was undeserved because his only competition was JAcques Villeneuve and Jean Alesi and Michael Schumacher was in a bad car? YOu gonna say that Piquet was also an unworthy champ in 1981 because he had to face none other than Carlos Reutemann while Alan Jones was busy crashing or breaking his car? OR Rosberg because he had none other than JOhn Watson as a rival and Pironi was in the hospital while Alain Prost was stuck with a grenade exploding Renault? Or Jody Sheckter was less worthy because Alan Jones had an unreliable car and had Gilles Villeneuve as his bitch, and the points standings played in his favor? Is Fittipaldi also unworthy because he had none other than Clay Regazzoni as his rival and a then young crashprone Niki Lauda?

That's all utter bullshit. You fight against the competition you have that year, you beat them, you're a worthy WDC, no matter if it's Michael Schumacher or Jacques Villeneuve. It's not Button's fault that the competition stumbled over each other or had reliability issues. He who's more consistent and wins enough races to be ahead of the rest at the end of the season is a worthy WDC.

Oh, Since when was Barrichello ever been a slouch? He's a very good driver when he has the car behind him. True, he's a moaner to the nth degree, but a BAD driver? That's news to me.

GIBF1

Nov 23 2009, 23:41

QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 23 2009, 13:55)

Well, to go bak on topic again.

Nico Rosberg was asked who was the strongest competitor of Lewis and Jenson:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80317

Very diplomatic from Nico there, it would of been easy to say his mate Lewis

Alonzo

Nov 24 2009, 11:56

QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 19 2009, 00:15)

Somehow though i doubt JB gives a shit what some short arsed Brazilian thinks

man, this forum is guaranteed entertainment.

Massa>>>>Button

Can you answer me something, why britishs and Brazilians/Argentinians have so much problem with each other? I mean, if Massa was australian, iraqi, chilean or argelian, I don't think you would mention his nationality.

highdownforce

Nov 24 2009, 13:47

QUOTE (Alonzo @ Nov 24 2009, 09:56)

Can you answer me something, why britishs and Brazilians/Argentinians have so much problem with each other?

1st Mansell/Piquet
2nd Mansell/Senna
3rd Hamilton/Massa

Buttoneer

Nov 24 2009, 13:53

Alonzo, it's friendly rivalry, hardly the same as 'having a problem.'

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