I agree with what Slyder said and would also like to point out one other thing that follows from your post:

By your argument, Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton are good drivers based on them beating their opponents. I don't know if you realize it, but all three of them actually raced against Button in 2009... So Button beat those WDC drivers in 2009. And you have classified them as good. So by your own argumentation, Button would be a worthy champion.

What you kind of forgot is also the fact the car plays. That is the same every year, the car the driver has at his disposal plays a huge part. Maybe that's why you "forgot" to mention that in 2009 Button was also racing against Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton.

Look at the scoreboard Felipe.

Me wonders if Massa had won the Hamilton championship would he still have this opinion of Button...

You stay classy Felipe. That Barrichello must be awesome at Super Mario Kart.

I dont know why this is dragging on.

Massa hasnt had the chance to race against Button in a championship fight.
Massa was nothing before he came to Ferrari
Massa isnt a great racer. He seems better just because of last year.
Massa's opinion is just opinion, unproven until 2010 or 2011.

We all know Rubens is his best friend, so what do you expect?

They chose Massa to replace Barrichello for a reason.

Actually I think he is the weakest active champion - but he is a champion. Which is one better than Massa ever will be. I also voted Button as top driver of 2009, because he delivered when the car was there. That was impressive. But this was a year where topteams like McLaren and Ferrari were absolutely nowhere. Yeah - Renault too. And BMW. So go on saying hey he beat those champions is just...not really the whole story. But he is a champion - but he is the weakest. And Massa is a baby. But I knew that already

Massa has a right to an opinion - just bring them on. Would be great to hear drivers badmouthing one another instead of being so boring...

Yes Barrichello was starting to get to close to Schumi and had also been vocal about not wanting to stay as his support driver....

me neither

lucky for jenson..he had to beat rubens


wonder why they hired a nothing?


and how is that? care to explain a little?
what was last year so special that made massa look better?



while you are full of b#$$, sorry facts
proven, all of them

if that's true, then man, button has been getting some spanking from half of the grid in recent years....

Massa is entitled to his opinion and I agree with him on this particular topic. Button is not in the same class as Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi. This year he was fortunate to be in the right car at the right time. He made a much more difficult job of winning the championship than it should have been.

Aren't all champions ?

Lewis lost 17 points with 2 races to go in 2007.

In 2008, he managed it by a point by virtue of Glock.

Massa has never won, despite being in a WDC winning car once, and a WCC winning car twice.

Button won with a race to spare in a season with more race winners than any of recent years.

Who made a more difficult job?

Its easy to make this sort of black/white argument but there's just so many variables in F1.

Button may have won with a race to go, but he also had a supremely dominant car for the first half of the season while the other teams were still working on catching up(Red Bull didn't debut their DD diffuser til Monaco, and it was still underdeveloped at the time). Not to mention that Barrichello's luck, pace and strategy didn't work out for him during that time.

Everything just kind of came together for Button. Granted, he made almost no mistakes to speak of, and he was doing what it took, but I think there's quite a few drivers that would have done similar or better in his position.

Take the 2nd half of the season into account and his title seems a little less impressive. It sucks to say it, I know, but he was pretty much beaten by his teammate over that period, and had he been getting beat like that earlier in the season, he probably wouldn't have the title.

All in hindsight, though. I'll agree with Massa that Button is the weakest current WDC, but thats not saying he's bad. Alonso, Kimi and Lewis are just very good drivers. If Button can show he's a match for Lewis next year, I'll definitely change my opinion, but until then....

In 2007, the McLaren was the fastest car, closely followed by Ferrari.

In 2008, McLaren and Ferrari were far quicker than the rest.

In 2009, the whole field was seperated by a couple of seconds.

Brawn and Red Bull were the best, but McLaren, Ferrari and even Force India were up there.

Kimi and Lewis both won with dominant cars.

Button won with a race to spare in a season with more race winners, and closer competition than either of them.

6 wins in a season with 4 teams winning, compared to 4 wins with 3 teams winning, or 6 wins in a season with 2 teams winning.

yes, especially the first races were so close in front
I mean you never knew whom to expect to be the fastest package..


come on, did you even watch the races? the brawns were destroying the field for half of the year.

in a smilarly dominant car with rubens as a teamate ms was wrapping up the title by monza or something. but he was never qualyfing 13th or 15th

more race winners after half season just meant button was never going to be caught becuase the others were stealing points from each other.
vettel/webber/rubens/hamilton/kimi in the mix for points was just great news for button. less chance of somebody making a winning series of results.

it doesn't mean it was his fault or anything but he was extremely lucky this year

In 2007, Lewis sticking 2 fingers up at his team in Hungary prevented Alonso from winning.

In 2008, Glock ****ing up at the last corner cost Massa the title.

It doesn't mean that it was their fault, but they were extremely lucky those years.

Clearly, you didn't watch the races, or indeed quali.

Jenson put in either a stunning last lap quali, or simply overtook in the race.

In Oz, Jenson had 0.5 on Vettel, but SV went 2 laps later.

Button won.

In Malaysia, Button was only a tenth down on Trulli with 2 laps less fuel.

Button won.

In China, Button was over half a second down on Vettel, and a tenth behind Webber.

Vettel won, Jenson 3rd.

In Bahrain, Button was 6 tenths down on Jarno, and a tenth down on Vettel

Button Won.

In Spain, Button was less than 1 hundredth ahead of Vettel.

Button won

Altogether, not a crushing car advantage, like Schumacher had in 1994, 1995, 1999, (where he broke his leg), 2000, 2002, and 2004.

The duel between Brawn and red bull was closer than Ferrari vs McLaren for the last few years.

Still, Button could sign for USF1 and win every race in 2010 and still you would make an excuse as to why Lewis, Fernando, Kimi etc are better, just because, well, they are!!

Bennetons from 94. and 95. and Ferraris from 1999. and 2000. were dominant ?
You fail

Thread given a quick clean. Keep on topic please, and avoid discussing each other.

In 2007, the Mclaren was not dominant. It was very closely matched with the Ferrari all season long.

In 2008, the Mclaren and Ferrari were far quicker than the rest, you're right, but they still had each other to compete with.

In 2009, the field was closer overall, but at the front, the Brawns were in a class of their own in the first half of the season. There was nothing any other team could have done except hope for misfortune for Button.

I dont think you're seeing the glaring point here. Button's title came mainly from those wins at the beginning of the season where he had nobody really to compete with except his teammate, who was not having the greatest of times. By the time Red Bull, Ferrari and Mclaren developed their cars to match the Brawns(and Barrichello regained his form...), Jenson already had an almost unbeatable lead.

He still won the title, he still deserves it, but it was not as impressive to me as most WDC's. I cant help but see it that way. Its not anything against Button or anything.

You have it 100% backwards, Tifosi's post specifically adresses the cars. In 2005 Alonso didn't fight Schumi because Schumi didn't have a WDC-contender car. He fought Kimi in 2005 and Schumi in 2006 not because Schumi wasn't driving in 2005. Hamilton didn't had a rival in Alonso in 2008, but he battled 2 very closely matched Ferrari cars, just like Kimi had not only his own teammate but an arguably superior McLaren car driven by 2 ruthless competitors to contend with in 2007.

No matter how much you want to think it, neither Kimi, Alonso, Massa nor Hamilton had contending cars in 2009, hence, they weren't in the title fight, hence, they weren't Button rivals.

And I don't want to demean Button's title at all. For me, any WDC is a worthy WDC, Button no less than any others. And Massa would do well in keeping his mouth shut and be classy until he gets HIS WDC. But still, I don't rate Button's WDC as highly as other titles, because titles don't exist in a vacuum, the level of your opposition is very important in making some titles legendary and others not so much. Ali wasn't big because he hit hard... he became big because he battled some of the very best in history. Bird/Magic/Jordan era was so huge and memorable because no less than three of the 5 best players ever played against each other. Button, for whatever reason, had an absurdly dominant car in the first half of the season and just had to battle himself and avoid mistakes. Only RB was close to being a consistent rival all season, and by the time they were in a position to fight for the WDC, other cars had grown too and points were going to be spread around the field, making Button's job paradoxically easier.

Massa was a champion in the making before Ferrari ?? Wow, thats news. If he was, so were some of the other drivers on the grid then and now.

What was special abt 2008? He actually fought for the championship to the end. He was a better driver in the rain, drove better under pressure.

JB had built up so much lead in the first half, that his championship lead was never under threat.

if Brawn 09 at the begining of the year is not to be considered a crushing car advatage then I rest my case on this topic
there is no point in saying anything else

Yes, and he made the best use of the package.

Its acknowledged that Brawn made significant changes to the car mid season, which affected both the drivers. Only 2 wins/10.

Barrichello is a better racer than you imagine. %^&*ed his reputation and career, bending over and over for MS in his prime.

funny how this bending goes because he was complaining he had to bend for jenson too (bad strategy calls etc)

and he seemed to be able to beat jenson quite often in the second half, can't remember him being remotely close to do that to ms

2009 Jenson Button WDC,End of Story.Scoeboard does not lie or tell anyone how it happened.

He is probably the only one from the West Country,been out with most good looking women etc,etc.

It does not matter but he is the only person who can call himself 2009 WDC

It is probable that Massa will never be able to call himself that in any year as you don't pay Alanso the sort of money he is getting without him being No1.He is in a far stronger position than the Finn as he comes with a major long term sponsor who he controls.That's the name of the game.It's played by big boys not the I-Pod generation and no it isn't fair.

Massa isn't saying that Button doesn't deserve the title. He's just pointing out the obvious in that out of Button, Kimi, Lewis and Alonso, Button is probably the weakest of the quartet and had one of the less impressive WDC's of them, too.

I think the majority of people would probably agree.

Your comparing the drivers but not the cars. Its all so wonderfully off base.

What's the difference between Alonso beating an up and coming Kimi in a fast but unreliable McLaren in 2005 (and all the cruise and collect accusations) and Button beating Vettel in 2009. I see not a lot. Furthermore Button had the best car at the start of the season, but evidently not the best by the midway point. So he had to defend his championship lead without a race winning car. That, for me, makes Buttons achievement in 2009 greater than Alonsos in 2005.

IMO
1st half of year Brawn-JB combination = brilliant
2nd half of the year Brawn-JB combination = pathetic

Fortunately for JB, he had built up such a margin that even with his dismal performance, he still managed to win. And at the end of the day, it's not how you win, but that you do win.

I do find it hard to believe that some people don't think the Brawn was all that superior to the other cars 1st half of the season. Are you serious? Yes the SF and Mac were better than the other cars on the track in previous years but how many reliability issues between the 4 cars did they experience meaning that had that many points to catch up... Brawn on the other hand, had like 1 or 2 retirements, so catching up was NEVER an issue. Maybe Button has shown potential over the years but not even he could pull off 6 wins in 7 races because he was suddenly THAT GOOD!...and half that time, SF and Mac were scoring 0 points- so maybe in your opinion Button became brilliant arount the same time KR, LH, FM became pathetic.

So going back to what FM said. I don't think it's appropriate for one driver to say such things - to the media - about another driver. It's just not polite. I prefer drivers to do their talking on the track, and 'weak' or 'good but not as good as the rest', JB has 1 up on FM as things stand today.

he still has got to prove he's faster than massa. and that won't be too easy

Well my money is on Alonso...we will see .

Yeah!! You're all right!

Button, Enjoy your stupid WDC title, and model girlfriend, and living in Monaco and hanging out on Yachts and drinking champagne and being rich and driving for Mclaren and... oh wait... seriously doesn't even matter what we think, the dude is hanging out on a beach with the effing WDC in his pocket.

We'll just be here on Atlas wishing to have had 30 seconds of your "weak" championship. (although I still think its weak, haha)

Carry On!

Look to 1998. "Maybe Mika has shown potential over the years but not even he could pull off 8 wins after a previous gifted win because he was suddenly THAT GOOD!..."

1999. Mika managed to beat Irvine in the last race, after MS broke his leg, (Eddie would have won if he didn't have to play #2 for half the season).

So, we are agreed. Mika Hakkinnen is just as undeserving as Button.

Few can doubt that Jenson Button can finesse the very best out of a car providing that it's well set up and suits his driving style.
In a car that responds to his smooth driving style Jenson is at least as fast as any other drivers on the grid.

So, accepting this caveat, he is certainly fast enough to warrant a WDC. But we all know he has a weakness but so do his rivals :

Up to the very end of the 2008 season, Hamilton's has been that he always drives flat out and has occasionally crashed as a result, losing him a first WDC in 2007.

Alonso has real psychological problems when he doesn't have No 1 status in the team but does have a competitive team mate.
As for Kimi - well - he's just Kimi. Motivation seems to come and go, damaging his prospects of another drive with a top team.

Jenson's weakness appears to be in developing a fast set-up and adapting his style to perform on tracks that don't suit the car.
In these specific circumstances the other three World Champions are undoubtably quicker ( always assuming Kimi is in the mood )

But I would bet that Button would drive a much more strategic race than Lewis, will surely handle the situation at McLaren much better than Alonso and his motivation has never been in doubt.

At this stage of the game, don't these individual traits rather even things out ?


The exception is Lewis Hamilton : he's so much younger and less experienced than all the other World Champions on the grid that he has plenty of time to develop his talents further : he's already matured a great deal since so nearly winning the WDC in his very first season.

I have little doubt that Lewis is truly exceptional. He has the potential to be significantly better than all of the other WDCs on the grid and at least the equal of Michael Schumacher.

To say this takes nothing away from Jenson's achievement in 2009.



.

because apparently people don't like to be reminded of the truth.. Button is not as good as Lewis/Alonso/Kimi

I just don't see how this can be definitively stated.

If you were to say "I don't think Button is as complete as Alonso" I would likely agree (though Button is better than Fernando in some areas).

But Hamilton is still early days, and likely overestimated (especially by his fans). The truth is that outliers don't really exist in this sport. That's all perception. Even Schumacher was a carefully crafted illusion to an extent. He had the high level of talent and an amazing work ethic, but the truth is that he used his political skills to ensure that he never faced a teammate on equal terms. I believe that had he raced alongside the others top drivers of his day, he would have likely fared well. But there would have been season where he was beaten, and that would have tarnished his reputation (at least to the casual fan).

All young drivers are perceived as better than they really are. But is Lewis really better than Vettel, for instance. My guess is no. They are both highly talented drivers that at the moment make a few too many mistakes. Lewis has a WDC but has had the benefit of great machinery (except for this year, where he had to settle for decent to very good).

And older drivers have the reverse perception. Once they've been beaten by a teammate once or twice (inevitable with enough seasons and all the variables involved) we assume that they're just not that great.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. All drivers are flawed. Alonso is afraid of being beaten by a teammate and reacts badly to it (not good in a team sport). Kimi lacks the drive and work ethic needed to be great. Vettel and Hamilton still make too many mistakes (but maybe next year they won't). Button's driving style isn't all that versatile. And these are the best drivers.

As for who Button beat to the championship... Vettel, Barrichello and Webber is a pretty formidable list. I'd pick any of them ahead of Massa, for instance (well, except maybe Rubens, who I suspect is just as quick but like his countryman has a tendency to whine). While Felipe impressed me against Kimi last year, I still wonder if it was more of Raikkonen being off his game or whether Massa raised his. The truth is that we don't know.

This year we'll find out a lot about our top drivers though. Here's what I predict...

Alonso handles Massa fairly easily. Felipe's fans will claim team bias towards their new #1 driver, and they may be right. Or maybe not. We won't be able to tell.

A healthy Webber is much closer to Vettel than expected. Most pundits will predict the gap will widen with another year of experience for Seb, but I don't think so.

Button and Hamilton are closely matched at McLaren. My question here is whether Hamilton can keep his cool in this situation.

And a bit farther down the grid...

Heidfeld beats Rosberg in points but loses out slightly in qualifying, yet still won't get much credit for it.

Kubica struggles with Renault and isn't happy about it. He'll beat whoever is in the 2nd seat though.

Rubens outpoints Hulkenberg but the young German learns a lot and comes on strong late in the year.

Pls show me where I say Button is undeserving...you know what, don't bother, this argument is so blangude.

But just because I'm bored, sitting in traffic on my way to work, I'll clarify what I said.
The whole "Massa said Button is not as good as FA, LH and KR"...I agree with that statement and I stated my reasons (even though I think Massa was impolite to say it to the media). That doesn't mean I don't think he deserves it. On the contrary, I think he FULLY deserves it.

Keep your eyes on the road

Ok guess where this leads to? Kimi and Alonso have been trashed, we have many threads saying Massa >> Kimi and Lewis >> Alonzo. So only two great drivers exist on the grid today, thats Lewis and Massa. Oh well

alonso has neven been trahsed . That is fanboyism crap coming from lewis's camp. In my book alonso beat lewis more times in 07 than the opposite. They finished with the same aount of points in a team that was racing against alonoso .
now, with regards to massa beating Kimi it simply means that he is also one step above button. Button is one of the best of the secod tier of drivers, I,e rosberg, webber, nick, rubens, trulli.

this does not mean that he did not deserve the WDC. To me F1 has always been more about the car than the driver. The driver who has the best car overall only needs to beat his teammate in order to be champion and Button did that.

In my book Hamilton finished above Alonso in the 2007 championship, and whilst you may blame McLaren for that Alonso also has to take his share of the blame.

Also, the 2009 season is barley a month past. Are we going to ignore Red Bull and start claiming that Button only had to beat his teammate?

Where would you rate Kubica?

The point is that Alonso was not 'trashed'. Thats pure exaggeration.

I still don't understand why this topic is still going?

Not much else to talk about during the off-season.

It's so obvious that he's never been trashed that the 'point' doesn't need to be contested.