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Orin
Nearly all drivers struggle to achieve their first WDC, they don't such sail through it - this is a lifetime's ambition. Compare Alonso's 1st WDC with his 2nd.
HMV
QUOTE (MiPe @ Nov 25 2009, 13:48) *
I wish it would be so simple, but I am not sure whether those are the reasons. Having DNF because of engine failure has nothing to do with driving skills. Having racing accident happened even to the best.


Vettel retired, what, like 5 times this season. How many of those were actual engine failures?

QUOTE (MiPe @ Nov 25 2009, 13:48) *
Vettel's driving skills were questioned repeatedly, and there is no point to rehash the same topic again, as most of the BB made their mind one way or another. To question however JB's driving skills is not too wise. JB as a driver probably peaked, as I do not expect him to improve much from where he is now, but the issue of low scoring in second half remains to be explained, because he had not lost his driving skills overnight in the middle of the season.


Driving skills are not constant. No one is a God on track and, while it may be truism, specific tracks, setup and other changes to the car all play a part. If the car changed, so did Button's performance, I don't see how anything else need to be explained.
HP
QUOTE (Melbourne Park @ Nov 24 2009, 13:04) *
The only way to judge F1 drivers is by what they get paid. The higher they get paid, the more valuable they must be.

Sorry fanboys, its that simple.

Ralf Schumacher will be happy to hear that! wink.gif
Mandzipop
My opinion as to why they could have put Vettel up there.

At the beginning of the years when Vettel made most of the mistakes, the Red Bull had a tyre issue in hot weather. Vettel is quite hard on his tyres and and therefore caused problems. It is easy to explain. Malaysia was a lottery basically. Even Lewis spun 6 times. Quali for Brazil was a lottery and the Singapore incident still baffles me. I also think if it had come down to 1 point in the championship, Red Bull might have pursued that case. How many mistakes did Vettel really make once the car issues had been resolved?

In the latter half of the season, Button was still driving a race winning car as proven by Rubens, so why did his performances drop off? There is no technical explanation behind it.

So combine the fact that there was a known problem with the Red Bull but not as much so with the Brawn, so maybe that is one thing they have taken into consideration.

I dunno, I'm just an armchair expert (ie I know nothing) biggrin.gif
H2H
Well there is no surprise that certain people have a certain vision due to smaller or bigger bias. Vettel had two mechanical DNFs


Hungary (from Wikipedia)

QUOTE
The conditions on the grid were dry before the race, the air temperature at 26 °C (79 °F), and the track temperature at 43 °C (109 °F).[34] The formation lap for the race began at 14:00 local time (UTC+2), with the race beginning a couple of minutes later.[34] Alonso retained his pole position lead into the first corner, followed by a fast-starting Hamilton, Webber, Räikkönen and Vettel, who had made a slow start from the "dirty" side of the grid. Hamilton and Räikkönen nearly touched on the run to turn one, which in effect slowed the Finn slightly and allowed to Webber to maintain third.[35] Hamilton ran slightly wide on the exit of the first corner, which allowed Webber to challenge him. The counter-effect caused Räikkönen and Vettel to stack up, with the German's Red Bull making slight contact with the rear of the Ferrari. Vettel lost further places to Rosberg and Kovalainen as a result of the incident.[36] Räikkönen would latterly be investigated after the race for both of his first lap incidents.[35] At the end of the first lap, Sutil came into the pits from 19th place with water pressure problems.[37][38] The problem was terminal and he became the first retirement of the afternoon. Alonso started to pull away from the field, setting his fastest lap of the race – 1:23.529 – on lap four.[39]

This promoted Kovalainen into the lead, followed by Vettel but both drivers pitted at the end of lap 21, to hand the lead back to Hamilton.[42] Vettel's sluggish pit-stop cost him track position, as he filtered out behind Rosberg.[34] Vettel was struggling with his car, and was passed for eighth position by Barrichello on lap 27. He then reported to his race engineer Guillaume Rocquelin that something was broken on his car.[34][44] He pitted at the end of the lap from eleventh position, having lost more places, and his pit crew routinely replaced the nosecone and took a detailed look at the rear suspension.[34][37][42] He rejoined a lap down before retiring on lap 30



Valenica

QUOTE
Red Bull seemed to be struggling in the hotter conditions as they were outpaced in both sessions by title challengers Brawn. Vettel (5th and 9th) and Webber (8th and 14th) were hopeful things would improve on Saturday.

It was a surprise result on Saturday as Adrian Sutil topped the time sheets, as Vettel's engine blew half way through the session causing it to be red flagged as oil was on the track. The other Force India, Fisichella was 0.621 seconds behind his team-mate in P6. Kazuki Nakajima came in 2nd with Robert Kubica coming in 3rd. Heikki Kovalainen was the only one of the major contenders for pole in the top 5 as he came in 4th ahead of Nico Rosberg.

On lap 15, Hamilton and Vettel came into the pits. Hamilton rejoined in sixth place but Vettel's fuel pump failed to work so had to come in again. Kovalainen came in a lap later while Barrichello was flying out on the track. Button and Räikkönen pitted on lap 18, the Finn coming out in eighth while Button rejoined in 11th. Barrichello came in on lap 19, the Brazilian had made a lot of ground as he rejoined just behind Lewis after being around 10 seconds adrift. But most importantly for Brawn he had jumped the other McLaren of Kovalainen. On lap 24, a lot of smoke was pouring from the rear end of Vettel's car and he retired with a suspected engine failure.


Of course he had also quite some restrictions in the last GPs due to known engine problematic.

All in all he an (avoidable) racing incident in the first race where he was more to blame than Kubica, spun off trying to make up time in the second race three laps before the race was stopped due to the unsafe conditions and crashed in the sixth race IIRC on cold tyres in the outlap. Doesn't sound as bad as many make it. From Silverstone onwards he was close to being flawless.


H2H

P.S: For Malaysia see this he was overtaking quite neatly before the threw the car away.
Dom77
Remember all of Vettel's wins have come without passing anyone on track. So with 2010 no refueling he has to pass to win he wont be able to qualify on less fuel runaway like a hare. wave.gif Will see what he does in 2010.
HMV
QUOTE (H2H @ Nov 25 2009, 14:45) *
Of course he had also quite some restrictions in the last GPs due to known engine problematic.

All in all he an (avoidable) racing incident in the first race where he was more to blame than Kubica, spun off trying to make up time in the second race three laps before the race was stopped due to the unsafe conditions and crashed in the sixth race IIRC on cold tyres in the outlap. Doesn't sound as bad as many make it. From Silverstone onwards he was close to being flawless.


H2H

P.S: For Malaysia see this he was overtaking quite neatly before the threw the car away.



I guess it's a matter of style. While he had 3 legitimate unforced errors that resulted in a retirement, those three were on the "grand" end of the scale. Binning it in Monaco might have been a simple error but it still looked flashy. As such it will always stand out post season, regardless of anything else.
Mandzipop
QUOTE (HMV @ Nov 25 2009, 14:26) *
I guess it's a matter of style. While he had 3 legitimate unforced errors that resulted in a retirement, those three were on the "grand" end of the scale. Binning it in Monaco might have been a simple error but it still looked flashy. As such it will always stand out post season, regardless of anything else.


Officially he only retired from 3 races. 2 with mechanical failure. However we know he dnf'd in 3 races. Malaysia was a lottery. If he'd have held his starting positions in those 3 races, he still wouldn't have won the championship. In total they cost him 10 points (based on grid positions). In the grand scheme of things they had very little impact.
Buttoneer
There was also the tiny and yet win-preventing mistake in Turkey. Again, not to pass any judgement on the guy who is by any standards an exemplary talent, but even the small mistake cost.
Sakae
QUOTE (HMV @ Nov 25 2009, 08:20) *
Vettel retired, what, like 5 times this season. How many of those were actual engine failures?


Two with some nursing last ones towards the end, yet he ended up being only 11 point behind JB. Isn't that a miracle then?

QUOTE (HMV @ Nov 25 2009, 08:20) *
Driving skills are not constant. No one is a God on track and, while it may be truism, specific tracks, setup and other changes to the car all play a part. If the car changed, so did Button's performance, I don't see how anything else need to be explained.


Sorry, but I wouldn't know about it. I have rooted for Schumacher for past decade, and acquired a different standard and outlook on those things.
Sakae
QUOTE (Rinehart @ Nov 25 2009, 08:13) *
Button beat Vettel fair and square. Over the course of the season that Red Bull was as good as the Brawn. Take out Vettels mistakes and he would have been champion, even with his DNF's. Shows how good the Red Bull was.

I though all along that discussion was about the paddock poll, and why it came up as it did, rather than argument who is better between those two drivers. But then, English is not my first or second language, so what do I know?
Sakae
QUOTE (H2H @ Nov 25 2009, 08:45) *
All in all he an (avoidable) racing incident in the first race where he was more to blame than Kubica, spun off trying to make up time in the second race three laps before the race was stopped due to the unsafe conditions and crashed in the sixth race IIRC on cold tyres in the outlap. Doesn't sound as bad as many make it. From Silverstone onwards he was close to being flawless.


H2H

P.S: For Malaysia see this he was overtaking quite neatly before the threw the car away.


Agree with most of it, except Melb.

(Yes, Seb in his naivitee he has appologized to the team that he let himself involved, but that's not the same as accepting responsibility).
Gareth
QUOTE (MiPe @ Nov 25 2009, 18:21) *
Yes, Seb in his naivitee he has appologized to the team that he let himself involved, but that's not the same as accepting responsibility.

I felt a bit sorry for him with the way that was taken and run with. Am I right in remembering, though, that he also apologised to Thiessen/BMW?
Sakae
QUOTE (Gareth @ Nov 25 2009, 12:33) *
I felt a bit sorry for him with the way that was taken and run with. Am I right in remembering, though, that he also apologised to Thiessen/BMW?
That's how well brought up childern in Germany behave. (I am not trying to be festidious, but it is embeded in the culture. MS was trying to do the same many years ago, and with his weak command of English he really got himslef into pickle, as media had heyday with him).
beute
Alonso p4 is lulworthy...

it's almost like that:



yeah, he destroyed grosjean and piquet, Kimi did the same with Fisichella, who is considered as a god compared to the two.
Rinehart
QUOTE (MiPe @ Nov 25 2009, 17:09) *
I though all along that discussion was about the paddock poll, and why it came up as it did, rather than argument who is better between those two drivers. But then, English is not my first or second language, so what do I know?


Well I read lots of complaints that threads are going off topic, but for me, more often than not, the scope for discussion is so defined that its impossible to have a natural discussion where the debate runs in various interesting directions. ohwell.gif
Taxi
I've been telling you that Vettel is the best. And now team bosses agree on that... In what concerns talent analisys i'm has good as Ken Tyrrel or Peter Sauber. tongue.gif
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