But still feel confused

Alonso got more out of his car consistently than Kimi, and I think anyone. Of course if your car is crap then this wont be reflected in the results but thats when intelligence and real analysis comes into it. Just ask yourself, how many drivers on the grid in 2009 could have gotten more out of the renault than Alonso. The answer would be close to zero so Alonso must be rated near the top. Simple hey?

That is a good thing, it is proof that you are actually pondering information entering your brain rather than just sort into pre-made folders that has a default opinion attached to them ;)

I guess DJ Mallaya gave him that 8 points .


While I probably don't agree with some places, I completely agree with 1st place, good job Seb .

"Remember that past performance is no indication of the future and that your driver rating can go down as well as up"

I think that's got to be a disclaimer for the Massa entry, right? He's says he's OK, and the doctors think he's OK, but is he really? nevertheless he is much further down the list than his performances suggest, it's just they were so long ago.

How do you know that? I mean even if one could really see it, which I do not believe, Alonso was pretty invisible through out the season to normal spectators.

Is he? This kind of reasoning almost certainly hinges on extrapolation from Räikkönen's performances during the bottom half of the season.

It either assumes he would have out performed Räikkönen over the season even with Räikkönen's performances given and/or assuming Räikkönen's turn in form had nothing to do with Räikkönen, but solely with some generally applicable improvements in the car. Well I think its a folly.

You guys seem to think team bosses take this exercise as serious as we do, they don't

What was Autosport's list? I no longer subscribe, so I'm not sure whether they'd have published it yet. (Edit: Forget I said that, just noticed the humungous thread elsewhere.)

The points difference (in this list, I mean) between Hamilton and Alonso was the big thing for me, actually, given that so many rate the two as pretty much level as the best drivers in F1. I don't disagree with that, but it seemingly just goes to show Alonso's relative anonymity in the results this season.

Personally, I'd actually be tempted to rank Hamilton top, provided that we're talking about purely on-track matters here.

The same Jenson who struggled against Barrichello once he switchd to the same brake compound that Jenson was using?

No it hinges on a direct comparison in the first half.

I'm not trying to devalue Raikkonen's performances at all.

When it comes to comparing their feelings about driver's performance with feelings of posters on this BB, then I would say they are still closer to the target than we all are.

How on earth do you know that, are you a confidant of them all?? I think not.

That's why he hardly scored more than half as many points as Kimi? That's why he was 9TH in a season where the field was full of the most inexperienced and bad drivers in ages? Yes your logic is simple. But it makes no sense whatsoever. Alonso spends the season not scoring a single point in the majority of race and in a lousy race seat. Thus, he's a top driver

Seriously though, what's your explanation then for Kimi scoring more points than anyone across 5 races in row at the same time as his teammates were getting last place in every race? Looking forward to hearing some more of that simple "Kimi suck, Alonso amazing" logic.

How about a top-four pred?

Christian Horner: Vettel-Webber-Button-Hamilton
Mario Theissen: Vettel-Button-Kubica-Heidfeld
Ross Brawn: Button-Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso
Stefano Domenicali: Alonso-Massa-Raikkonen-Button
Martin Whitmarsh: Hamilton-Button-Vettel-Raikkonen
Franz Tost: Vettel-Hamilton-Button-Webber
John Howett: Button-Vettel-Hamilton-Raikkonen
Vijay Mallya: Vettel-Sutil-Button-Hamilton
Bob Bell: Alonso-Hamilton-Vettel-Button
Frank Williams: Hamilton-Vettel-Barrichello-Webber

what I mean is they're probably more objective but I just can't see them taking the time to recall the performance of each driver in each race, every mistake, every DNF, the relative performance of the car in each track etc. On the other hand, some of us here would probably go into those details on this thread as the discussion continues.

So we all agree the best driver didn't win the championship

No wonder Vettel is at the top. Red Bull have got two votes, and Norbert and Mario whack-off at the sight of him.

Its interesting that Rosberg claims his year has raised his value in the pitlane, but is not shown by these results.

Theoretically it sounds like his move to Merc is almost entirely influenced by his nationality.

Even though he had the best car

I dont really agree that the team bosses poll is in some way more valid than others because they are "in the know" - more than any group of people they are also involved in the rivalry and politics of F1.

The image of a cozy little group of mates sitting round discussing the drivers over a beer is just not the case.

Factors in this will include envy/anger about Brawn getting good results on the back of the DD row, Raikkonens famous "I dont give S&^t atitude - which I am sure extends to his dealings with team managers and many other things we can only guess about.

Vettel was fast but made too many errors - for me that doesnt make him the best last year - in fact things were so even it is hard to think of someone who stood head and shoulders above the rest.

Yeah, what do the team bosses know compared to you anyway???

That's a pretty good reflection of reality. Personally, I think Alonso should be lower (he should be in the top-10, though, upon further reflection), and both Kubica and Sutil shouldn't be in the top-10.

Take Alonso out, bump Barrichello and Raikkonen up, and switch Button and Vettel, and you'll have my top-5..

It's hardly surprising that Red Bull's teams would vote for Vettel though is it, since he won both team's first race. But I guess that has nothing to do with his qualities as a driver?
If you're trying to suggest that Mario and Norbert like Vettel because he is German (other than just being a good driver in which case their votes would be perfectly valid) then why wouldn't they vote for their own German drivers (Heidfeld and Rosberg)?

Interesting.

Theissen sticks up for his boys.

Domenicali plays head games with Hamilton.

Mallya is gloriously delusional (Sutil in the top-4? WTF?).

So you praise Theissen for sticking up for his boys and critic Mallya for doing the same thing

Ham was more experienced? Plus ham didnt have the pressure of going for the title, which I think explains a lot of button's poorer performances. There are very few drivers unaffected by that

You could just call me delusional if you wanted to,given the fact that it was me who came up with that list. (hence the 'pred'iction bit) Sorry if there's been a misunderstanding!


However,IMO,I reckon that's the way the voting went,to account for the published scores....Given half a chance,SD would fill all eight slots with Alonso,Massa and Raikkonen,andMallya likes to think Sutil was the best thing that ever happened to him...

True, but only by nine races. Maybe that does explain it but I do have nagging doubts about Vettel generally, which I'm sure he'll have many years to dispell.

Yep that same jenson that still finished ahead of rubens in more races even though he was "struggling"

what a farce, cosidering how many mistakes he made (unforced) which cost him wins/positions. Really this award is a bit OTT i feel.

Sure, he definitely threw it away a couple of times this year. I suspect he wont continue to get such a good press if he continues to do this without bringing home a title. He also seems to have a potential weakness when it comes to overtaking, although that may have been the car.

Had Hamilton not crashed at Monza, and done better in Germany, he may well have outscored Button.

Button's score, imo, was influenced by his domination when he had by far the best and most consistent car in the first half of the season.

+1

Rosberg is not rated by his new or old teams!

Pretty striking, isn't it? It suggests that Williams' "he's the best thing since sliced bread and we wouldn't part with him for any money" line of a few years back was largely a bluff to get McLaren to cough up. It's strange that not even Brawn rates him, perhaps that's because he's the result of pressure from Mercedes?

I wouldn't argue with that list.

But I still get the feeling that while these guys may nknow more than we do about the drivers, they're still no more capable of producing a more objective analysis.

Not Jensons fault, sometimes you got a lucky strike.

Dr. T placed Vettel ahead of Kubica. That should give boys and girls on BMW 2009 thread a pause; but then, maybe not, because next minute they will tell me what does Mario knows about anything?

Where do you get this list?

About the top I will say that is subjective, if this voting list is true.
And we have to look also at points.

I like Nico but he often talked the car down which tended to talk up his drives. He stated that he was leaving Williams to go to a race winning car. He will not get away with talking the Merc down. It will be interesting to what he has to say if he does not get the win in the first two or threee races.

What does Mario knows about anything?




and who said he did

That list is what BRK thinks the team principals voted for. It's not a record of truth, it's a guess.

Let me translate then; I do not think that Dr. Theissen's judgement would be accepted well.

C'mon MiPe. Where's your sense of humour?

Let's imagine that each team gave 10 points to its driver, and 0 points to closest rival driver. But in comparison with other drivers, Vettel has at least two teams (Red Bull and Toro Roso) that voted in this way and gave him 20 points in sum. So, Vettel has received 10 additional unfair points in comparison with Button and Hamilton which has received 10 points from Brawn and McLaren respectively. If we subtract this 10 points, we obtain a more realistic picture :

1. Jenson Button 67
2. Sebastian Vettel 66
3. Lewis Hamilton 65
4. Fernando Alonso 39
...

But it's not realistic, because each team didn't give 10 points to its drivers - proved by the fact that 10th place had only 8 points.

Rosberg not in there? That's really harsh. He scored all of his team's points, for god's sake.

The teams probably have a very good idea of just how good the Williams was and how much its true potential was not used by its drivers. Rosberg didnt even get a single podium remember, and 34 points is not a very big haul from an original DD car.

Just goes to show the level of the WDC contenders this year. Button underperformed for half a season so he was hardly a better choice, although i would have picked him.

Big learning curve 2009, as was 2008, but boy does he learn. 2010 a mature racer with the rough edges polished up. Come on boy, you can do it! (Fanboy attitude taking over...)