How long do you expect this recession to go on? If Silverstone upgraded their facilities to the 21st century then perhaps Bernie might make some concessions but the BRDC have done bugger all to improve the circuit.
For the record I don't want the end of the British GP, what I want is the best GP in the damn world to be held in Britian at the crown jewels of a facility. But that isn't what we have is it!

[quote name='ClubmanGT' date='Nov 21 2009, 03:25' post='4006864']
Can you explain to me why Monza and Monaco never have any problems?

Easy to explain.... If Monza is under threat then Ferrari will have a few words to say, should Monaco go then the teams lose a place where great leverage can be used on prospective sponsors.
With so many British based teams involved in F1 surely they can also use some leverage on the controlling bodies to ensure the longevity of the British GP no matter it being held at Silverstone, Donington or Brands Hatch...

Then rename the thread to "We deserve a race because we're England" because you're effecitvely silencing debate from people who disagree with you.

I don't blame Bernie for moving the race, you problem is more with the people who refused to buy into Donnington's plans. If they'd raised the money, you would have a British Grand Prix and there would be no problem.

Monza already get special historical rates. They already get special favours. So much for Bernies business sense or his supposed has to do it for economical reasons.

Silverstone is better then most of the other historical circuits, much better then Monza. Without a long term contract, only a idiot would invest to upgrade their facilities, it can't be done.

The point remains though.. it's useless to have a thread about how great/necessary the British GP is when there are several precedents of arguably great/necessary races having been unceremoniously dropped before...

It's a mistake to treat it like an enthusiast that is seeing his favorite museum closing its doors. or.. if you think it's like that, then treat it as such!

Otherwise it's business, and that has some form of simplicity..

You're missing the point - he's not obliged to have a race in the UK. Face it. If he can get more money for the sport, then they should go somewhere else. If F1 is so important in the UK, then there should be no problem in financing track upgrades or FOM deals and it wouldn't be an issue. Bernie's business sense is spot on, for him to roll over and do a special favour for the UK because it's the UK would not be sound business logic if there's money to be made.

From a facilities point of view Silverstone is not better than the other historical circuits. There's a long term contract on the table right now! The BRDC has no intention of upgrading the circuit, they want the status quo, as do you. It can't be done!

Whats happened to Bernies Business sense with Monza and Monaco?

Bernies Business sense gives two GP to spain due to Alonso

UK has some of the biggest crowds, 2 WDC, most teams, no GP, Business fail.


As far as business sense go, it seems you keep missing out Silverstones and that Bernies demands are not economically viable. You say Bernie shouldn't roll over, yet you seem to expect Silverstone and this country do so for him.

BRDC have the plans and finance in place to upgrade. What you've wrote is just your opinion with no factual evidence offered.

And Yes, Silverstone is as good as and better then some off the other historical circuits.

The contract on other from a business point of view is not economically viable, for people who keep going on about business, you both seem happy to keep skipping that point.

What are Spain paying for their two races?

Great! I love a late night debate...
Donington was never going to be suitable, the track was used as a threat to Silverstone to up the money for Bernie and his bedfellows.... It gave MotoGP a reason to go to Silverstone which may or may may not go ahead...
Personally, i think the threat from Bernie was to create a war between British tracks in order to up the finances and nothing more. Donington could never get the finances and complete the track upgrades in time so Bernie knows he is in a position where the BRDC might outbid beyond their finances in order to preserve the British GP out of pride.

The BRDC has been saying that for years while all they've done is build themselves a nice VIP area!
From a spectators point of view Silverstone is not as good as the other historical circuits!

It's called the basics of negotiating - namely, Bernie has something they want, not the other way around. Either they come to an agreed price, or they don't. That's all there really is to it in terms of business sense, and it's up to Bernie to maximise his income and for Silverstone to try and get the best deal possible. Look at Microsoft/Yahoo - people can't always meet in the middle.

Senna, as far as I know, Silverstone is a world-class facility. The pits were upgraded (not without some feet-dragging) and the only real problem before that was the muddy carparking and traffic jams debacle, with the former being fixed immediately and the latter being a problem at any track where you've got thousands of fans trying to leave at once - even in New Zealand!

@ senna da silva.... you did not reply, especially to this bit....

What exactly are the deals with Monaco and Monza?

The comparisons with Monza would be interesting... compared to Monaco however, Silverstone is an entirely different animal, but I can see Bernie doing his thing with Monza when the time comes..

..again though, you have to put yourself in Bernie's shoes... he can point his finger in many directions and ask Silverstone, or whoever wants a GP in Britain, to do something similar, you know, like they are doing..

Monaco and Monza get special "historic" rates, the only 2 GP that do. Monaco I believe don't pay anything, its not being said what exactly rates Monza get them at.

I don't deny that F1 is about passion and one should never forget where they came from or on who's shoulders they are standing on, but tradition just means outdated to me. Traditionally women didn't vote and African's were slaves, both extremely outdated concepts thank goodness, and extreme examples but poignant in this case. Just because Silverstone is on the calendar now doen't mean it alwyas should be, Brands Hatch was frankly a much more interesting circuit for both the fans and drivers, but where is that now in the world of F1? Should Britain have an F1 race? Yes! Should Silverstone have the exclusive rights to that race? No!

I have more than just a sneaking feeling that should Monaco offer just 2 cents to host a GP they would still be allowed to host a GP.... There is so much more to Monaco such as the glitz and glamour which teams can use to extract more funds from sponsors and prospective sponsors...

edited for a misspelling....

There's never enough toilets, the food is crap, accomodations suck. Bernie is right when he compares it to a faire! Would you pay hundres of pounds to attend a faire?

It's funny you should say that, because your attitude of wanting Silverstone to stand their ground is going to get races in those aforementioend places with no crowds. We want a British Grand Prix, and the fastest way for that to happen is for Silverstone to bow to Ecclestone's demands and sign the contract. It may not be the best solution, but it is better than them getting all defiant and Britain losing its race.

I mean, what do you think is going to happen? Do you think Ecclestone is going to listen to fans and put the race back on? He didn't do that for Canada or America or France. Or do you think he's going to see the "history" of the event and have a change of heart with a lower rate for Silverstone? He's already made it prety plain that he doesn't care for history, and I honestly think that if "tradition" is important as you people make it out, then putting a price on it only cheapens it.

If Britain is without a Grand Prix next season, there is one person and one person alone to blame, and it won't be Bernie Ecclestone - it will be Damon Hill. And, of course the BRDC. The onus is on them to sign the contract and save the race. Ecclestone has already made it clear he's not going to give any quarter, which I think is a perfectly sensible and reasonable approach to take: after all, he went them. He made it plain what they had to do to save the race, and he made it quite clear that saving it depends entirely on their actions.

So if you think that Silverstone holding out is somehow going to save the British Grand Prix, you're dead wrong. And if the race is removed from the calendar and you start trash-talking Ecclestone for it, don't be surprised if everyone on the forums is out for your blood. Silverstone can either stand up to Ecclestone or they can host the British Grand Prix. They cannot have both, because standing up to him and refusing to sign the contract will only result in the race being lost. You could do worse than deciding right now which one of those two you wanted.

What's it going to be?

Always found a toilet when I need one and they was very clean.

No issue with the food except for the price.

Accommodation? Silveestone like Monza and Spa is a campsite.

I'm surprised after all talk about business you expect Silverstone to sign a contract that would see them running at a lose and going bankrupt after a few years, and Hill is to blame, hmm, Hill is not even involved in the contract talks.

Nope, they shouldn't bow to Bernies stupid demands.

Now, we are starting to agree...
Silverstone is neither the be all nor end all of the British GP, but it is probably the best place to host a GP in Britain with the least amount of changes necessary to do so.
I just don`t think that tradition should be thrown away for the sake of finance or glamour...
If only Britain, Italy, France etc. could produce the funds to equal those of the "new territories".... Then again, i would prefer if they could use most of those hypothetical funds to provide great tracks opposed to facilities such as garages, hospitality areas etc...

You seem to forget that Bernie runs a business as well. It's not his job to look after the financial security of the BRDC.

While I agree with most of your post, I disagree with that bit... I find it hard to blame the promoters when Bernie is basically asking for a fundamental cultural change... Silverstone and the BRDC alone will never make any money with Bernie's current rate... their mistake was in failing to raise the awareness enough about that fact..

For the Canadian GP it took a year without F1 to achieve this.. and even then, after getting rid of the previous players it's still a hell of a tough sell.. (still up in the air AFAIK)

Let's not beat around the bush.. Bernie wants government money, not specifically, but you get the drift.. someone elsewhere already opened the door on that, so it'll come sooner or later.. it sure is worth gambling for it if you're Ecclestone, because once the tap is opened, it is very hard to close.

And why not, if they can stump up Billions for those poor banks then surely they can afford a few Million for a race!

Well, there's that.. but I still have in mind some of Legault's suggestions.. (the previous Montreal promoter)

When it was clear he was done with Bernie's crap, ha had alot of interesting things to say, and that was even before the collapse of the economy..

For instance, his suggestion that F1 circuit owners/promoters should get together as a counterweight to Bernie's highest bidder unsustainable nonsense... of course that was never to be, but it's a bit rich to complain right now so much later while there was a solution available before..

Drastic actions called for drastic measures, but currently it really is too late for everyone to pull their hands out of their arses, some new players were introduced, and these would never play that game, they simply don't need to and were promised other things... I guess we'll have to see where Bernie is leading everyone.

To be realistic, for a moment, Gubments all over the world are bailing out bankers, while, they should IMHO, be erecting gallows in every town instead, but our learned overseers have decided to bail out their banking buddies to the ultimate detriment and cost of their citizens... They will always stump up all the cash possible to bail out their banking buddies but will never stump up cash to prop up a sport where numbers are calculated in ones and twos (ie. one million, two million etc....) and with a following of a low percentage of their respective populations...

A fundamental cultural change wouldn't be the worst thing the BRDC could do. To me, they've always been a bunch of old-timers sitting around caring more about the history of the event than the futre of it. They always assumed they'd have the British Grand Prix because they'd always had it. But we're coming out of a recession, and Formula One has been hit hard by scandals like the outbreak of industrial espionage in 2007 and the Singapore investigations, while the future of the sport has been threatened by the politics. History and tradition are nice - but right now, Formula One needs to concentrate on securing its future. The BRDC's attitde has always struck me as being counter-productive to that because they don't care for the future. At least not as much as they care for the past. And even then, they haven't got much to work with - other crcuits offer much more in the way of history. If they had cared for the future of the event instead of assuming that it would simply come to them because if was the British Grand Prix, then I'm dead certain we never would have found ourselves in this situation.

A lot of people put a particular emphasis on the importance of Silverstone and the British Grand Prix because of its history and the tradition of the event. But I don't see why that should grant Silverstone better terms with Ecclestone (and ignoring for the moment that both Monaco and Monza have more of that history); to me, trying to use it as a bargaining chip only cheapens the event. To me, it would be the same as if the Lourve were up for sale and someone said "Can we get a better deal because it contains the Mona Lisa?". Silverstone has history, it has tradition. I find it deeply ironic that people want to use that to cut a better deal with Bernie Ecclestone - Satan himself, according to most people - when its that history and tradition that gives the circuit a soul.

Senna da Silva, i have a bed calling me at this late hour, i enjoyed bandying a few words...
sleep well and, peace brother....

I wouldn't put it like that, but yeah it is a cop out of sorts.. at least the version we got looks like it. They may well have looked for outside help and support (government or whatever), and having failed at that, the only thing they had left was publicly appealing with the heritage and history aspect...

I think overall you are underestimating these people... I see them more as passengers than you do.. ultimately it's Bernie that is calling the shots.. if whatever numbers Silverstone's got aren't good enough to convince anyone, then all they can do may well be exactly what they're doing, and ask for Bernie's clemency..

You always have to consider that Bernie is playing the game like some third party will join, because there's no way Silverstone can get even as is... over the years Bernie has made it clear he would want that third player to consider his olympic stuff worthy of consideration $$.. maybe Silverstone aren't doing a good enough job in that regard? I don't blame them..

Don't you think racing drivers, British racing drivers, would want the absolute best for the sport?

I don't doubt their ability to organise and hold a race. What I do doubt is the desire, their thirst to hold a race as much as some of these other places that are making bids. It's my understanding that Ecclestone usually gives better terms to circuits that are already on the calendar when their contracts are up for renewal than he does to circuits looking to join for the first time, so if you think about it, Silverstone are already getting a better cut. Looking back over some of the circuit's history, Silverstone tends to whinge and complain more than the others - Ecclestone always seems to be riding them to upgrade their facilities, and when they secure funds, there's always delays and stoppages that means nothing ever gets done. It seems like every other year there is a report on the new pit facilities being built. So do the BRDC want to host the British Grand Prix because it is the sport's best interests for the future, or do they want to host it because they've always hosted it?

...and yet doesnt seem to mind Brazil etc being a yellow hole in the snow.

Ecclestone's issue isn't with spectator facilities - it's the pits. Year in, year out there are always reports of Silverstone getting a pit upgrade and then running into trouble.

I was at Monza this year and the spectator facilities there were far worse imo than they are at Silverstone.



One problem though, they cannot sign a contract if it going to cause issues financially. It is illegal for the director of a company to sign a contract that they know they can't meet financially.



I can't say anything about what happened previous times, but the impression I have this time that the only thing that is stopping Silverstone going ahead with their new pit facilities is the lack of a long term F1 contract to justify the outlay required.

It would be a huge shame if Britain were to lose its Grand Prix, but if it does not go ahead then I cannot see myself blaming the BRDC, I would prefer them to be making sure that the circuit's future is financially secure rather than just signing with Bernie and to hell with the consequences.

Bernie Ecclestone issues warning to Silverstone over British grand prix
22 November 2009

Ecclestone, Formula One's commercial rights holder, said: "They had a contract in place that they could have signed if they'd wanted to, but they haven't. At the moment there is no British grand prix. I think 9 December is when the Formula One commission meet so that's when it will be taken off the calendar. If there's no contract in place there won't be a British grand prix."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/2...tish-grand-prix

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8374911.stm

Things sounding a bit more positive now.

Right thread Mandzi It is excellent news... and on TV now they're talking of it as a done deal. Phew!!!

Does sound very promising!

If it happens, will they use the new Moto GP layout or the traditional one???

I think the plan is to switch over to a slightly modified version of the MotoGP layout, though whether that will be straight away or after the new pits/paddock after Club are complete I'm not sure.

The AutoSport mag article on the new layout is unclear about what this version will be used for. I like it though. That new abbey infeild. lots of viewing from stands there...

Bernie is there to screw the venues over so he can line CVC pockets, get rid of the older tracks to go to the places that will pay more, but have no F1 followers.

---------------------

In case you haven't noticed, without CVC there would not currently be an F1, with or without followers.

It's up to the series to decide. Both layouts will be available to them.

One step closer to playing the "how many battle of britain referances will be made in the silverstone (It used to be an old RAF base in WW2) gp weekend 2010 by the various british commentators, assuming we have 2 germans in mercedes works team" game

ok the title needs some work but still! lol

Hopefully the Button/Hamilton British team will drag the punters in because if not, Silverstone has lost out bigtime on advance sales immediately after the last GP.

Imagine if they're level or near to level on points at the top of the championship

Put it this way McLaren will be rolling in it with all the merchandise they sell