To answer..

Where did I say they were NOT world titles... in literal terms yes they are... but the profile of these titles is considerably less than IRC for example.

The marketing being done by Peugeot is not purely being done in the UK. There is much being done elsewhere, now I have no idea what they might be doing in Finland with that, but to say they are struggling to market their achievement was nonsense.

The reason why so few S2000 manufacturer cars on Monte Carlo is very simple. It's a extremely tough, expensive and specialist event to compete on, in short...a complete lottery. But either way...four manufacturers is better than 2 dont you think? and In fact...if you read Neil Duncanson's comments about his vision for the WRC (he being the boss of North One sport) He only wants 4 manufacturers total on the WRC... so again... your point about 4 manufacturers is what exactly?

Yes Fiat have changes and decisions to make, but to be fair, they have much greater pressing problems right now and to be fair to them...it was Fiat that really pushed the S2000 class and provided great support in the early days..

Yes the Group N cars have been at a disadvantage, but the ability to now run a 33mm restrictor instead of 32mm, bearing in mind that a full WRC car only uses a 34mm restrictor... in the right hands...a Group N car 'SHOULD' now challenge the S2000 machines...

Quick question from someone with not much rally experience...

Will Kris Meeke ever get a WRC shot?

He's on telly all the time but I've never heard his name connected with the top category.

Pot hi, Yes Kris will get a shot and probably not too far into the distance! ;)

Unfortunately he was being lined up with the WRC by his mentor Colin McRae at about the time of Colin's accident. He is currently a test driver for Citroen and his future is likely to progress to the WRC.

For those of you Kimi fans new to Rallying... You are probably going to get to hear from the guy more than you heard in his entire F1 career, due to the almost 'requirement' to chat to the journalists TV/Radio at the end of each stage.

So you will get a lot of talk time from Kimi....or he will be like Marko Martin who was extremely difficult to get to say much and I think I managed to get him to smile and laugh twice! I suspect we may see a slightly more talkative Kimi, which will be a good thing, as this is one of the few areas I think he has been really poor in, in the past.

So far though... he looks like he is getting adjusted to the C4 very well indeed, which is good to see.

Who knows? He may leave all the talking to his co-driver.

What would you prefer?

Meeke is certainly ready to prove himself in WRC now. If only someone gives him a chance. Don't forget there are many aspiring drivers like him who will like to do WRC as well.
But concerning his links with Colin... Somehow I remember news about how McRae gave up his support to Meeke because he was not making any progress. And somehow McRae stickers disappeared from Kris' cars. Did I really dream it all?

Almost every word Kimi said in those onboard clips were: F**K, this piece of shit aint going nowhere!

This pic is just so cool:

http://www.redbull.com/cs/RedBull/RBImages.../220110RY01.jpg

Sir Jackie you are correct.

FOC just loves pushing his anti-wrc views and writing long-winded, narrow minded essays, all because he fancies himself as the next David Evans

He even classes the 2 litre FWD Honda Civic R3 as one of the S2000 cars. By his train of thought there are 7 different manufacturers supporting the first round of the wrc in sweden next month:
Ford
Citroen
Subaru
Mitsubishi
Skoda
Suzuki
Peugeot

Looking good!

The Red Bull colours suit Kimi and the C4 very well.

A longer video from Kimi's tests. (WMV-file)

The link is not working for me, this does:

http://yle.fi/urheilu/lajit/moottoriurheil...eo_1394131.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2S52zABPnw...player_embedded

Not C3, but you can buy Citroen DS3 1.6THP (which features the same engine as Mini): http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/fi...itroen_ds3.html

I've been mislead?????
You are chatting utter bollocks

Fords new 1.6 turbo engine: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/05/ford-...rbocharged.html

Peugeots put one in the 207 a few years ago: http://motortorque.askaprice.com/news/auto...gt-16-turbo.asp

Opel/Vauxhalls new 1.6 turbo: http://www.topgear.com/uk/vauxhall/insigni...st/1.6-turbo-se

VAG has, over the last few years introduced a 1.4 turbo accross all their brands (Audi, Vw, Seat & Skoda) and a 1.6 is in development

And as alfista just pointed out - you can buy a ds3 1.6 turbo and guess what Citroen are using this model as the basis for their new world rally car!!!!

Oh, out of curiosity, how many of the s2000 ''manufacturers'' that you listed currently produce a 2000cc naturally aspired high performance engine?
Ford? No
Peugeot/Citroen? No
Skoda/VW? No
Mg? Dont produce anything....
Opel? No
Toyota? No
Fiat? No
Proton? No

Keep Flying Kimi!!!!

BTW, how many of them have 4WD production versions of their rally cars? And how many WRC manufacturers? Both answers are the same - nil. So there's no manufacturers at all?

But there are trees right next to the track! David Coulthard and Mark Webber should hold an emergency meeting forcing the FIA to cut down all the trees, place a marshall every 100 meters and also melt that road. There's ice on it! They can't even race when there's rain on the track. Heaven forbid pushing that gas pedal and going fast should take some balls.

Soooo painfuly true

This is so fabulous...

I have answered in bold below...

quote name='kosmic33' date='Jan 25 2010
You are chatting utter bollocks
Really? Lets see shall we?

Fords new 1.6 turbo engine: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/05/ford-...rbocharged.html
Well done..they have made a 1.6 Turbo engine in 2007. Super.... now can you show me the Ford Dealer where I can buy a Fiesta 1.6 Turbo today?

Peugeots put one in the 207 a few years ago: http://motortorque.askaprice.com/news/auto...gt-16-turbo.asp Excellent in 2006 Peugeot put a 1.6 Turbo in the 207.... and yet I dont seem to have the option to buy that today?
http://www.peugeot.co.uk/vehicles/peugeot-...-co2-emissions/

Opel/Vauxhalls new 1.6 turbo: http://www.topgear.com/uk/vauxhall/insigni...st/1.6-turbo-se
Yes Opel are developing a 1.6 Turbo to go into their Insignia. Great... do they have plan to put that in the Corsa? Or is Opel now heading to the WRC with the Insignia?

VAG has, over the last few years introduced a 1.4 turbo accross all their brands (Audi, Vw, Seat & Skoda) and a 1.6 is in development.
Yep... IN DEVELOPMENT...the key words there! Which is why I have been calling for the stupid decision to run these engines NEXT YEAR! I have never had an issue with a new smaller engine with a Turbo...but the timescale has not been thoughout and remains stupid. They can push it back to 2013 and run what is available now then get everyone on the same page for 3 years time. Which again is why there has been so much debate as to what the 'World' engine should be.... PSA/Mini want it to be the 1600cc, VAG want the 1400cc and others throw their thoughts around as well.... it makes SENSE to delay and find agreement amongst ALL... rather than pander to the wishes of just a couple now...


And as alfista just pointed out - you can buy a ds3 1.6 turbo and guess what Citroen are using this model as the basis for their new world rally car!!!!
I am well aware of what Citroen are going to be using for next years WRC car, as I have actually spoken with some of the guys involved in the cars development and yes you can buy a DS3 with a 1.6T, did you see me state otherise? BUT BINGO..... you are just starting to see the light as to where the desire to have a championship for 1.6 Litre Turbo engine cars comes from.... Citroen....and Shock Horror....Mini....because they use the same engine...
Yet as you say...this was the FIA that made the decision.....wasnt it???

Oh, out of curiosity, how many of the s2000 ''manufacturers'' that you listed currently produce a 2000cc naturally aspired high performance engine?
Again trying to understand what YOU call a performance engine is tough. Do you mean a 2 Litre engine or a tuned version?

Ford? No - Er WRONG...the 2 litre Duratec has been in the Fiesta ST for several years now!
Peugeot/Citroen? No - Er....again Peugeot have had a 2 Litre in the 206 GTi for many years but have made it clear THEY wish to migrate to smaller engines.
Skoda/VW? No - Er.....so the 2 Ltre TFSI engine in the Scirocco GT....whats that? not enogh performance for you? You know...the one that won best engine of year award for 2 Litre engines??
Mg? Dont produce anything.... So the chinese dont have the K200 engine to build eh?
Opel? No - apart from their Turbo Diesel...
Toyota? No - Because they now favour the 1500cc engine as the way forward.....or the 2.5L1AR engine for bigger options.
Fiat? No - Quite correct....why???? Because they now favour the 1400cc engine as the way forward......
Proton? No - bored out version of their 1.8 Litre engine

So....what exactly does all of the above prove....

Well, it proves what everyone outside the WRC already knows, in that that there is complete disagreement as to what the 'World' engine SHOULD be as a base unit and not the great harmony you seem to be trying to convince people of with regards to the 1600cc engine. The majority of manufacturers actually want to know this sooner rather than later,as it will be the engine base for Touring Cars, Rally, Sports Cars...possibly even F1 in the future... and with such economic times...NONE of them, have a huge desire to commit to the development of a new competition engine, until they know what the base unit will be. The fact is....certain 'interested' parties specified what theWRC was going to do....completely in the opposite direction of what everyone else seems to be doing for NOW, UNTIL....such a decision can be made...

Yes...there are manufacturers with a 1600cc Turbo engine.. But other than PSA/Mini you cannot buy a small car with that engine today. S2000 was a cheap means for manufaturers to use older engine technology and models to the Touring car standard as a means to reduce costs... NOBODY has stated...me especially that 2 Litre is the future, but it is readily available here and now with very little development cost. Designing a whole new engine for ONE facet of motorsport...is probably not the most sensible thing to do. But then the current WRC management dont care that they may have to change the engine regs AGAIN in 2 years...

Yes.. the future WRC engine is likely to be a smaller than 2 Litre unit with a Turbo...

IS next year the right time to be introducing the 1600cc Turbo engine rules...NO, in my personal opinion and the opinion of several others that I have spoken to in and around the upper echelons of rallying.

Now if you want to continue... try doing so without the profanity!

Try and keep it mature...

I have spent 4 years in and around the WRC and have carried the exact same media pass as David at many events, so no I dont fancy myself as the next David Evans.

My 'narrow-minded' essays as you put it.. have been born of hands on experience and interaction with people at the very top of world rallying and much as you seem to illogically think that I actually dislike the WRC, you are so far from the truth its riddiculous. I love the sport, but in recent years it has been destroyed by a small group of people. Now if saying something against that small group is now somehow 'ANTI' the WRC, then you truly have no idea what my true thoughts about the WRC are.

Oh and the statement about Honda... are they a registered manufacturer for the IRC?

Why dont you tell me how many on that list that you made are registered for the WRC? I know its hard to encounter a view that might be completely against your own, but try and keep it sensible, as at the end of the day, most of us are actually die hard rally fans that actually want to see the best for the sport.

More pictures here: Kimi testing Citroen C4 WRC.

Alas some people in other "upper echalons of rallying" obviously think otherwise, now what "upper echalon" will prevail?

Who knows...but thanks for the input!

great stuff thanks

And it's also the crown jewel of IRC, attracting some big names. But then again, Challenge points are much 'cheaper' in some other rallies, like the Safari...


The point being: four is less than twelve. Not even the IRC website claims there are twelve manufacturers, but eight (including Honda, Ralliart & Subaru, which are not S2000). Nothing wrong with 4, though. Monte was nice to watch with a 207, a Fabia, and a Fiesta fighting for the victory.


We'll see how it works out. Personally I don't believe N4 are going to be quite equal to S2000 even after this change. Production car World Rally Championship is not thus called for nothing. It's also strange that FIA decided to separate SWRC from PWRC, if the two are being equalized.

BTW, I actually can buy a Peugeot 207 with 1.6 THP (150 or 175 hp). http://www.peugeot.fi/autot/esittely?malli=207

You're welcome, keep us informed will you and drop some names as to your echalon.

So Kimi is runnig day and night.

Ah JPW...its always a pleasure with you...

I'd be delighted to send you some names via PM if you like? Now it seems the use of the word echalon is the latest cause of enjoyment for you...again always happy to keep you entertianed...

What interests me most is the fascination you have to try and belittle others views or experiences? Or are we not allowed to discuss what we have done for fear of it being too 'amateur' for you?

I still look forward to the day when you share with us some of your background, I am sure it is quite interesting.

SJW..when I state 12, I mean there are currently 12 cars I could go purchase today to compete in the IRC championship, 10 S2000 and 2 Group N. There are not 12 or even 10 shown on the IRC website but merely the 8 that are registered for manufacturer points.

With regards the Group N, you might well be right. I just mentioned in the IRC thread that I would have expected and hoped to see a higher finish for a Group N car on the Monte, and maybe if Marko Martin or Gigi Galli or someone of that ilk had been driving we might have seen it. But as has been pointed out, the cars do remain slightly too heavy still and/or need to be allowed to run sequential boxes! Then....I think we might see a more level playing field.

Your right though with the S-WRC and P-WRC being kept seperate, that was a strange decision.

As to the 207....it's strange how they sell the different models in different countries. seems we cannot get that in the UK for some reason? However I would be much happier when we can go to the dealer and buy either 1.6 Turbo or 2 Litre hatchback with Four Wheel Drive!! ;) THEN..... we might get back to the days of people buying cars that they have seen at the weekends. For years I have wished Skoda would do what Subaru did in the early nineties and bring out basically a road going version of the rally car. Say...£18,000 for a 4x4 2 Litre Fabia Sport? Should probably sell quite well?

Oh come on you've never been shy to drop names in public, why stop now?

It's just because I know you love it so much...

Afterall...when somone accuses you of being a 12 year old with no motorsport experience...it's nice to share what experience you might actually have! But then as you so dearly love to say...this isnt about the poster...its about the subject matter... so shall we get back to the WRC?

Man oh man. I am looking forward to this as much as F1 2010. I won't be able to watch it, but will have to follow it on the net.

If he wins a rally this year, I seriously doubt we will see him back in F1.

I have to say..... I am impressed with how he is going about this. He is showing great committment over the yumps and it's interesting listening to his trottle play on the those clips. He's certainly not going to be affraid to push it too hard to soon it seems.

Fair play to him.

The thing that truly blows me away is the amount of downforce that rear wing on the C4 generates... it's like watching the old Audi Quattro Sport again, only the Audi's rear wing was twice the size back in the day... No wonder he is pushing hard over the jumps...the thing just fly's so nicely.... no nasty nose pitch at all... I bet he is having an absolute blast right now!

There is nothing finer than watching a rally car at full throttle in the snow! truly stunning.

True.


From the photo 17, it is obvious that Kimi is doing this on Frozen-Road...

I ain't no expert but his throttle input does sound aggressive as he flies over the jumps. If he is showing that much committment on snow, on tarmac he could really be something to watch.

i guess kimi is pulling his foot slightly off while flying?

Well you push the throttle hard at the crest of the jump to set the car to 'launch' off the crest and then lift off once your airbourne, otherwise its 'rev-limiter hell' on the engine as the wheels spin through the air, but as it lands he has to be hard on it again to get the weight to push down and to get the traction on the studs.

Driving flat out on the snow is actually a very 'aggresive' style of driving, much more so than tarmac or gravel, you need a lot more movement in the car and so you run it pretty soft to get that weight transfer and bite from the studs into the snow and ice...braking is 'hard, sharp, off, onto gas' to keep the traction...otherwise....it's time to go visit the Moose in the tree's through the snow banks..

According to www.peugeot.co.uk Peugeot 207 1.6 THP 175 is on sale in UK starting at £ 17,295. So I doubt if 4x4 Fabia could be 18 grands.
I remember both Ford and Citroen considered 4WD production models of Focus and C4 respectively but both found it too expensive to develop. Even Focus RS has FWD.
Then, PSA is reportedly trying to overtake or at least buy a stake in Mitsubishi which brings all 4WD technology available for Peugeot and Citroen. It could be promising but I am not sure if they will use it for rally replicas which have very limited market.
VW group is the one of very few who is mass-producing 4WD compact cars. They can build and sell it under four brands (VW, Škoda, Seat and Audi) and use the same platform and powertrain also for crossover cars. That is what makes it viable. But I very much doubt if VW is interested in developing 4WD platform for superminis. Beancounters will not allow it to happen.
Basically only Japanese companies have small 4WD cars in their line-ups and they are anything but sporty. IMO Suzuki Swift is one of very few of those on sale in Europe but you can only have 93 hp 1300 cc engine with all-wheel-drive.
I am sure that we will have several 4WD small cars in near future. But they will be very different with internal combustion engine powering front wheels and electric motor(s) powering rears. Japanese have had such cars for several years already. Peugeot will join them in 2011 and surely there will be others as well. But it's not the kind of 4WD we are used to.

I know you are joking, but I do feel a bit uneasy watching those clips. I know that inside the car (if you are driving) it does not feel the same, but those trees will not give an inch. Ok, maybe one inch. But worse than the trees are the spectators. It is not nearly as bad as during the crazy Group B days, but they are often very close and on dangerous places and they have no safety cell. I think I would rather kill myself than a spectator. A scary sport. Part of what makes it beautiful I guess.

Thanks for that..

i guess a part that makes it beautiful is , driving fast through country roads 'legally' . ( thats what everyone who enjoys driving do , go faaaast )

Personally, I dunno which are more insane, the drivers or the spectators on the roadside... the drivers are incredible, how they can handle the car on such narrow roads, foot paths really, and the spectators are standing (sometimes literally) a few inches from the road. I know in reality there are controls where the spectators can hang out, but I would think there's a bit risk involved no matter where you stand, if you're that close to the track? I remember seeing on telly some Monte Carlo or Corsica (in southern Europe anyways) rallies where the crowds were acting really crazy, hanging out over the track and waving their fists at the drivers. It looked almost like they would hit the windscreen of the car... it didn't seem very... healthy, you know?

The co-drivers have to be the most insane. The older ones especially, they're old enough to know better

Kaj obviously has a lot of trust in Kimi.

I don't doubt that Raikkonen's probably the most gifted driver around in terms of "being a natural" with all his fastest laps, the way he picked up F1 cars so astonishingly quickly, etc.

However, there's no way he's really only been rallying for a couple years or whatever. Does anyone know the real story on how much experience he has in rally cars? I mean, is he friend with Makkinen and borrows his cars to go for spins up there in Lapland during the off-seasons or something? Did he really only race karts when he was kid or did he do some rally racing during his formative years as well? Anyone know anything about what his experience with rally cars is beyond the few races in the Puntos and now this Citroen testing?

Kimi"s mother said that Kimi does thing very well before starting to think about his situations.

Thanks for amazing pics and videos! I feel so anxious to see him in real fight!

I don't think Kimi will have problems with car control or speed. If you've been good karter, and Kimi has, it's not a problem. IMHO the most difficult thing is to sense the limits and that's where experienced co-driver like Lindström will help. BTW, Jevgeni Novikov was also quite good karter (competed in European Championship finals several times) and performed wonders with rally cars but his co-drivers were seemingly no match to him.

probabily he has a lot of experience driftint ladas, snow mobiles and botles of vodka. But one has to wonder how the hell can he manage to drive the best wrc in the world like that in his second run on it... He's quite special I tell you.