I wish Kimi would come back to F1 in a Merc if Shumi decides to quit after next year or after 2012.

Killer team? Räikkonen was beaten by Massa in 2008 and also in 2009 til his crash... By that Massa, who was beaten by Alonso... A logic is missing there, or the "magic" Räikkonen would suddenly perform better with the Spaniard being in team?

2008 Kimi had some problems yes, 2009 he was mostly faster than Massa but some problems dropped him behind in points.Massa had an awful year last season, his worst as a Ferrari driver by far. Kimi vs Alonso we can't say anything about because they have never driven against each other as a team mates...remember that Alonso was beaten by Trulli and Hamilton, do you really think Trulli is better driver than Alonso? no I don't think so! same goes for Massa and Kimi, most people in f1 paddock would by far say Kimi is better than Massa despitate the fact Massa beated Kimi 2008.one bad seson doesn't wipe out all other years ;)

about Kimi to ford next season, yes that seems most likely and there was a story about it yesterday in finnish media. Kimi doing nascar, I don't believe that as he has said he won't race nascar but will see

Alonso vs Trulli in 2004 was 46:45, so the difference was 1 point advantage for Jarno with Alonso being in F1 only for 3rd year... Massa and Räikkonen was 22:10 in terms of points before Felipe s crash in Hungary, so it was a much bigger difference... Räikkonen s best days were clearly at McLaren /2005, 2003/, at Ferrari he was just a shadow of himself...

Still Trulli beated him, 3 years and 1 testing season is enough to collect experience and remember Hamilton was in his first year and beated double world champion...yes but 2009 Kimi had some bad luck in the races and some costly strategy errors made by the team that did had effect on Kimi's points. He was either in front or right behind Felipe on races so scored points don't actually tell the whole truth always and he did beat Felipe 6-4 in qualifyings.but I do agree that Kimi did have his best years with McLaren (mainly because bridgestone tyres didn't suit Kimi at all and understeery Ferrari cars didn't help either) but he was very good at the second half of the 2007 and 2009 and the first half of the 2008...sadly he didn't perform like that all the season so we didn't see the best from him but saying he is worse than Massa is wrong, when Kimi had everything ok (tyres working etc.) Massa didn't had a chance against Kimi. Like Domenicalli said, when the car was to Kimi's liking Kimi was and will be perfect

You tell 'em big guy!

Really only the team was responsible for Räikkonen not delivering in first half of 2009? So let s see:

AUS - Massa retired, last seen on track as 11th, Räikkonen was at that time 16th, also retired later
MAL - Massa finished 9th, Räikkonen finished 14th
CHI - Massa retired, last seen on track as 3rd, Räikkonen was at that time 5th. Later finished 10th
BAH - Massa finished 14th, Räikkonen finished 6th
ESP - Massa finished 6th, Räikkonen retired, last seen on track as 10th
MON - Massa finished 4th, Räikkonen finished 3rd
TUR - Massa finished 6th, Räikkonen 9th
GBR - Massa finished 4th, Räikkonen 8th
EUR - Massa finished 3rd, Räikkonen retired, last seen ot track as 7th

In AUS both were out of points in time they retired
In MAL there was a strategy problem by Massa in qualifying, that s why he started so low, Räikkonen was driving 5th before the strategy mistake, so he maybe lost some points, but looking at how poor he was in rainy China, don t think he would have finshed 5th... But ok, lost of 4 points...
In CHIN - Massa was driving excelently passing Räikkonen on track and retired from 3rd place because of a technical issue... Possible lost of 6 points, Räikkonen fell down to 10th after a mediocre race...
In BAH was Räikkonen good, Massa collided and ended only 14th... No points lost for both
In ESP Massa was most of the race 3rd or 4th, but there was the bizarre fuel story, so he lost some places at the end... Räikkonen had a strategy problem in qualifying, but in race he couldn t pass a slower BMW of Heidfeld and also retired from 10th... Because of the fuel issue, Massa probably lost 2 points... Räikkonen wasn t on scoring position at the time of retirement
In MON both Ferraris finished 3th and 4th, while Massa was much better compared to qualifying being nearly 2 seconds behind Räikkonen on Sunday setting also the fastest time...
In TUR, GBR and EUR finished Massa ahead of Räikkonen despite being slower in qualifying... 2009 was maybe Felipe s only Ferrari season, when he was stronger in race then in qualifying... So the final result is Räikkonen was better only in Bahrain and Monaco, with Malaysia as a possibility... But being better 3 times out of 9 was not a big deal, I think... Also when we look at "lost" points - Räikkonen possibly lost 4, while Massa 8... So the difference would have been even bigger...
And a word about Massa earning places just because of strategy - without being quick is every great strategy USELESS...

Cool! You're really good with data aren't you? What you should do is dig through a website with F1 statistics for all the WDCs since 1950 while doing exactly what you've done above for each season and start a new thread about it. That would be awesome.

Raikkonen and Massa clearly had completely different driving styles and the 2007/2008/2009 Ferrari was probably on a compromised development path for both of them. That is, if they had gone towards development completely towards Filipe's style, we would have seen Massa drive even quicker than he did. If they had gone completely towards Raikkonen's style, Kimi would have done significantly better. We have some evidence of this based on Raikkonen's performance and comments after Filipe's accident. So comparison between the two is silly because they would have both been heavily impacted by the development path, which is not in their hands. I think they both respected each other and so neither threw a fit or dropped ultimatums as a way of getting the development pulled towards them - which is pretty cool actually, if you think about it.

But, ultimately, Raikkonen did get better absolute results over the three years in terms of results that count. So all this chatter about comparisons between half-seasons is moot since that's not what matters in the end. WDC's matter. And neither Filipe not Fernando have yet delivered one for Ferrari. Whereas Raikkonen has. Even Massa will not count 2008 and 2009 as worth anything, because he, like everyone in F1, is a big boy who's after the big price.

"Beating your teammate" means nothing in F1 if you don't win the WDC- ask Heidfeld. And this is as it should be.

drivers are part of the team and when I say team I also mean drivers:)


melb- Kimi had done his pitstop massa not, Kimi was in front of Massa most of the race and Kimi was about to score lots of points 2-4th place. and there was a failure at the car that made Kimi spin, even if Kimi took it as his own fault.
mal- team made a horrible error with wrong tyres.
esp- Kimi made a great recovery from the back of the grid and it was teams error that even was there becaseu they didn't let kimi go out again even if Kimi wanted.
gbr- Massa had a better strategy than Kimi who had to stop twice- Kimi was clearly faster all weekend up to that point.
eur- Kimi was right behind Massa all race, retired for car failure.


but anyways I agree that Kimi and Massa were about the same level at their time together in ferrari but I think Kimi is a better and faster driver than Massa and on same level with Alonso and Hamilton, it was more about that Kimi didn't got everything out of his Ferrari time while I think Massa did. Kimi's time at Ferrari wasnt' too bad, he got the title that he had always wanted and won 2 WCC titles with Felipe.

Would it be a WRC Fiesta or a S2000?

Massa/Räikkonen (44 races together)

Races they finished together - undecided 16:16
All races - 23:21 for Massa
Wins - 9:8 for Massa
Points - 213:195 for Massa
Titles - 1:0 - for Räikkonen with "huge" 1 point advantage over HAM and ALO while Massa had a "huge" 1 point gap on Hamilton a year later...

I know how hard it is to discuss this matter with Räikkonen fans, as most of them have always prepared as Webber says a "shopping list of excuses"
They two were pretty equal in Ferrari, which shows also those official numbers...

Why still live in 2009? They were quite even, globaly, but kimi got the best price: The world championship. Massa also got his reward: two more years in Ferrari. In Maranello they had more or less your ideia: Massa was a best bet. Kimi got money and drives in WRC. Everyone's happy. 

Strange, that according to my bullshit statistics this was a result of counting all
Räikkonen s/ Massa s performances in seasons 2007, 2008, 2009 together:

Showing as average positions:

2007 - Massa - 4,529 (3,666 official number)
Räikkonen - 3,647 (2,6 official number)

2008 - Massa - 5,222 (4,812 official number)
Räikkonen - 4,000 (5,625 official number)

2009 - Massa - 7,111 (6,571 official number)
Räikkonen - 7,294 (9,285 official number)

According to my stupid statistics Massa was doing in all 3 seasons worser then officially, while Räikkonen only in one...

And this is a result of all 44 races in 3 seasons they attended together

Massa - 5,620 (official number - 5,016)
Räikkonen - 4,980 (official number - 5,836)

So, it is ironic that my stupid statistics was favouring Räikkonen as a BETTER DRIVER compared to Massa... But as you wrote we should stick in the reality (the official results), which showed the direct opposite...

I think you have just dig yourself into a schyzophrenic trap. Good luck getting out of it

Could we now focuss on the future of Raikkonen? His past has been discussed zillion times and it is always the same arguments over and over again, this is getting really annoying.

Sorry to interrupt the eternal circular Massa=Kimi=Alonso argument, but this story suggests that once again Kimi is pricing himself out of a top drive. A Citroen drive would be a works seat (albeit in the 'junior' team) but Monster Ford is a privateer team that buys its cars etc from Ford. It will never have equal equipment to the works Fords, or even the Stobart Fords.

I do not understand how Kimi, who has earned shedloads of money from the sport, cannot see that it would be better to invest some of that (if he can't find a sponsor to underwrite him) in a Citroen drive rather than taking an inferior seat just because it is paid. Surely it is not his personal pride? He never struck me as being a major ego, unlike some others. Or is it his useless managers who obviously won't get a cut if he isn't paid. He should ditch the Robertsons who have lead him off into a back alley by demanding too much money for his services.

One theory would be that once you become a "pay driver" it becomes enormously difficult to go back. It devalues your position in future negotiations.

Another might be that he has a principle that he only participates in a sport where his presence is valued enough that he gets paid.

I don't think either view is unreasonable. I'm just guessing here, I don't have any facts to back it up. But the two reasonable theories above explain the facts so far and there are probably others that do too.

No need to worry, my opinion about Räikkonen is fix as I never rated him highly... I always prefered drivers, who weren t living just from their talent, but those, who wanted to learn, who wanted to get some new knowledge, who cared about things around them and who were ready to improve... This definitely wasn t the case of one overated Fin, who spent 8 years in two strongests teams on the grid and earned one lucky title with a "little help" of his teammate Massa...
And btw., if Räikkonen will continue with his consistent rallye crashing it won t take long and the big car companies will stop throwing away the money out of the window as they are doing it right now... Kubica looks much more promising as a future rallye driver then Räikkonen...

I can see the sense of your option 1, although you could equally argue that by investing now, Kimi could win rallies and challenge for the WRC which would re-value him for the future. And paying for drives isn't anathema in rallying - look at Latvala whose sponsors poured millions to get him up the ladder to become a paid driver.

Option 2 says that it is just his pride. Maybe, but I really hope not.

The lack of news is frustrating on kimis 2011 wrc season
p.s a ferrari fan talking about "a little help"....pmsl...

I like Ferrari brand for its long and interesting history and most Ferrari road cars because of their design... But that doesn t mean I have to agree with everything what a FERRARI F1 TEAM decided to do... My opinion is that cooperation with Räikkonen was for Ferrari a mistake and at the end it proved as true... K.R. was released after 2009 and replaced by Alonso... Being a fan of somebody (person) or something (a brand) doesn t mean you are blind with no own opinion and that you will agree with everything what is related to them...

One thing that puzzles me about Kimi Raikkonen is his approach to rallies. I mean he doesnt seem to participate in too many events in his spare time, and for the sake of his lack of experience he should. Just look at Kubica who is constantly doing some rallies, both in and off-season, despite being an active F1 driver. This weekend for example Robert is participating in Rally Internazionale Il Ciocchetto, which of course is not any big deal, but still will be a new, valuable experience for him. What is mr Raikkonen doing this weekend ??

I wish Kimi all the best (and may be wrong), but I just don't see him achieving too much in Rallying with this kind of approach. How can crashing out of most WRC events and not participating in almost any others (even if they involve driving lesser cars), make him better rally driver?

Of course it was a mistake, after all he only brought them one WDC and WCC. Whereas Massa and Alonso have brought so much more.

If you really were simply a Ferrari fan instead of Kimi-hater/Alonso fan/Massa fan/scooby-doo fan or whatever, you'd be thrilled by his results at Ferrari. But instead you feel the need to spout utter drivel about Kimi here on this forum. No, you're not blind, much.

What's your old alter again?

Turu,

I’m talking by memory, but I remember at least 3 rallies he’s done out of the WRC this season (1 on snow and 2 on tarmac), plus several tests. His team even got a penalty from the FIA because they exceeded with Kimi the number of tests priority 1 drivers are allowed to do.

Besides he’s done things like the Erzberg, plus enduro, plus don’t know how many other things this season.

If Kubica is doing another rally good for him (really good for him), but it doesn’t mean Kimi has to or is allowed to do it too . It’s possible he can not do tests because of the b****y contract-issue. If he’s not going to continue with Citroën, they’re not going to let him do lower rallies or tests with their or other cars.

And wasn’t he supposed to have some surgery and rest 6 weeks during the off-season to try to solve his back problem?

Sorry, I didn t know, people should only praise here in this forum... Seems that some drivers are untouchable... I just wonder, if was Räikkonen so extremely valuable being the only one who was able to win a title, why then Ferrari chose Alonso and Massa instead? A complete mystery...

Thanks for the info, I didn't know he really did some 'other' rallies this season.

Money perhaps, it's not that unimportant if you didn't know. You're right about one thing though people shouldn't only praise on this forum. However some balanced opinions would be appreciated, but I recognize its not that easy if you have an agenda. Nothing wrong with that except that the only one you even have the slightest possibility to persuade is yourself.

He even won one of them! I suppose that being the only WRC car there helped

In the one on snow he paid a visit to a tree

But in the other one he was second just a handfull of seconds behind of Ogier. It was his first time ever with the car on tarmac.

While I see your point given Raikkonens situation at present and the current financial climate, it must be said that those useless managers made Raikkonen over $150 million in just 3 years at Ferrari. Huge money which, even though he was a great driver, he wasn't worth that kind of stratospheric cash. However they struck while the iron was hot and cashed in big time, even though Raikkonen never performed to his 05/06 standards again.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Don't play stupid... give credit to people when credit is due, and critizise them when they do bad. Fair is fair. But you just bash him even when you claim you're a Ferrari fan first and foremost, and then blatantly disregard his achievements. That is so uncool. But I guess you can't help yourself?

Not that this is in any way related to Kimi news, rather the opposite.

Listen to Deep Throat's advice. Follow the money.

I wouldn't go bringing that up again. It has so be said - Kimi fans can be touchy. They're very passionate, so if you cross them, they'll attack you from every direction. Sure, the freedom to express whatever opinion you like is a nice one, but for your own sake, I'd advise biting your tongue. Blood in your mouth beats blood on the ground.

Lol....

Based on some minor league rallies driven with a higher budget than the most of others? Not taking anything from RK but WRC is far from those...it would be nice to see how he would do in a WRC car though...

Apparently Alonso was chosen to promote Petrov's Formula One career. No mystery there.

Meanwhile, Raikkonen in WRC in any car will be kick to watch next year. I am planning to attend my first rally in Mexico to watch him go at it which should be great fun. I'm just waiting to make sure he's doing it before I book the trip, but I am pretty optimistic about it.

Those may be lower status rallies, but they are probably a lot more competitive than WRC events in terms of the number of real contenders that Kubica has to beat. And as for the higher budget point, you do know that he is using a 15+ year old Clio Williams? Hardly state of the art machinery.

Kimi would have done well to have followed a similar path, building up skills and experience in national and European championship rallies instead of jumping in the deep end and nearly drowning. Kubica is gaining plaudits for his efforts, Kimi has been criticised for his. I know that he famously doesn't give a sh!t but most people prefer praise!

The reason can be pronounced in different ways, but it is always spelled the same: $$$

Ferrari had probably the best budget off all, but they really screamed for money... Oh, yes...
Or Mr. Räikkonen just didn t deliver what was expected from him...

2007 wdc

And then? His performances were worsening... In 2009 before Hungary Massa was 5th in the championship with 22 points, while Räikkonen was only 10th with 10 points... He just wasn t improving, while Felipe was... And that was probably the main reason for releasing him after 2009, not because of the money from Santander...

Im not gonna change my opinion of kimi,and neither are you,so i wouldnt bother trying to drag the past up,it makes no difference to now 2010

According to some reports, Kimi's dad passed away yesterday. Only 56 years old and just before Christmas

very very sad news Kimi's dad was Kimi's biggest supporter for all of his career without him Kimi wouldn't have been able to build a motor racing career at all. may he rest in peace, and I hope all the best for Kimi and his family.

Make sure you arrive for the first five minutes, otherwise he'll probably already have planted the car into a tree.

very bad news indeed and a huge blow to someone as family oriented as Kimi.

I know, today is not the right day to care about Mr Räikkönen's future, but according to Autosport it's going to be Citroën.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88758

Very sad news indeed, his father was only 56 years old.

R.I.P. Very Sad news.

Great news about Citroen ()

I wish all the best to Kimi and his family. It is wondrous beyond description to have the care and support of a loving father. The beauty is that nothing can ever change that fact and the love and warmth remains with you always.

Very sad news r.i.p,my father passed away at 56 also. a few years ago