Piquet is not out of F1 because of crashgate but because he was fired. About him crashing might be the reason for beeing fired. And why did he crash? Could it be because he had to push so hard to be on pace?

Perhaps he showed some pace but he was never faster than Massa.

ehmm... how many times did he beat Alonso in qualifying, in nearly 2 seasons? Once, I guess, and that was because Alonso messed up his quali in the rain. He did look a bit faster in the races, but he didn't really show good speed... occasionally he did, but on a very few occasions...

But it's off-topic here anyway.

to me, every F1 driver speed is within half a second .. Piquet and Massa never drove the same car..

Agree on that. I'm just saying that these cross comparisons aren't worth anything. And, I do believe Piquet didn't get to show his true potential.

I think Alonso is a better driver than Massa, and that's part of the gap.

For some reason, Massa is having issues with the car, and that's the other part of the gap.

Alonso-Massa should be more or less like Vettel-Webber: Vettel uses to be faster by a few tenths, with Webber occasionally being the quicker of the two.

It´s taken 5 races to come with the accident excuses... excelent

Qualys so far:

Alonso 4
Massa 1

You can't judge performance like that. Like someone said earlier, it seems the accident slowed him only 0.6 sec. Yeah, right.

Massa is average, and I if you followed this thread from the beginning I said even before the tests in winter he would be beaten by Alonso. People can quote me.
And he will, this trend will continue.

This is only now good for Kimi, everybody are realising what team Ferrari is like and what they did in 2008 to Kimi. And also in the first part of 09. Never liked them.

I don't have anything against him, but for me, he was always good driver, but not top-tier. Simple.

Or if you want to feel satisfied, think maybe that Kimi was also average like Massa.

It'll be interesting to see where - if anywhere, in F1 terms - Massa ends up once Ferrari get rid of him. Sauber perhaps? de la Rosa is getting on a bit, isn't he?

Off course it's not the accident. All levelheaded people know that Alonso is better than Massa and that Kimi was perhaps one of the most overrated drivers in F1 history.

The one thing that is a little bit worrying though is that for this year Ferrari has developed their car for a year and a half, longer than any of the top teams. On top of that they still have approximately 300 employees working in the factory, double the amount of McLaren, Mercedes and Red Bull. They have also invested almost twice the amount of money compared to the other teams and they have the best driver in F1.

They have really gone all in this season with all these advantages compared to the other teams to win the WDC. There is one thing though that isn't so positive compared to the effort and that is the results that we are seeing, especially this weekend, so far I might add.

What will happen if they don't win the WDC this year? Will it be their nr 1 driver Alonsos fault or are Ferrari going to accept that they are not the powerhouse they used to be any more?

Because next year won't probably be that easy when they will have to make the reorganisations of the staff which the other teams are already accustomed to and they won't have the luxury of a car that is developed for a year and a half. And did I mention the superior amount of money invested for this year?

But they will have one thing going for them. They will have the best driver in F1.

the accident is just a poor excuse...the reality

One car on the second row and the other on the fifth: that was the outcome of qualifying for the Spanish Grand Prix for Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro. Fernando Alonso was fourth fastest, while Felipe Massa ended up ninth at the end of the third and final part of qualifying. “First and foremost I want to congratulate Fernando,” said Stefano Domenicali. “He drove a really fantastic lap, getting every last thousandth of a second of performance out of the package he had today. Felipe never managed to find the right feeling for the car this weekend and today he did the best he could: we have to analyse the reasons that led to this situation. On this track, so far one team has been untouchable, while the other top three teams are all very close. We will see if this will still be the case in tomorrow’s race, especially in terms of tyre performance. Points are handed out on Sunday and before jumping to conclusions, it’s best to wait for the chequered flag.”

Fernando Alonso: “I am pleased with this result. We knew the Red Bulls would be untouchable, so to be fourth is more or less what we expected. As usual, tomorrow’s race will be long and we must try and get the most out of what we have to work with. Something unexpected can always happen, as was the case for me this morning when I got a puncture coming out of the garage for my first run. I don’t think we lost any valuable time, concentrating on the development of the blown rear wing: here and in China, we had so many other new components that we have been able to gain a few tenths in performance terms, without which we would be much further back on the grid, because the others are also working very hard. We are moving in the right direction and we have to continue like this. Tomorrow, it will be very important to get a good start: recently they have not gone so well for me and so this would be just the right moment to get one!”

Felipe Massa: “In qualifying I had a lot of trouble finding the right grip level, especially in the second and third sectors, which contain the slowest corners on the track: I felt as though I was rally driving, always understeering. Already yesterday, I realised this would not be an easy weekend and so I was not surprised at what happened today. We worked on different set-ups for the car and chose the best one, but it was not enough: we have to work out why, but without panicking, but by calmly analysing the situation. Maybe I didn’t put together the best possible lap, but even so I don’t think I would have been in the fight for the top places. The Red Bulls are much quicker than everyone else here and we will have to do our best to try and get a good finishing position.”

Chris Dyer: “We cannot be happy to find ourselves almost a second off pole position, that’s for sure. Both Felipe and Fernando have struggled all weekend, especially in terms of grip levels. On his last qualifying lap, Fernando produced an exceptional lap and getting the car at least onto the second row was down to his talent. Tomorrow, it will be vital to manage to get a good start, given that, on this track, overtaking is very difficult. One unknown factor is tyre behaviour: from what we have seen so far, there might be some surprises over the long runs.”

Thats how I see it except in Piquet's case he was below average and Trulli at times could look pretty good.

Just goes to show Piquest jnr was unfairly underrated. He was nowhere near as bad as everyone thought and people forgot just how fast Alonso is. Now they remember. There is nothing wrong with Massa he is a good driver but not on Alonso's level, just like he was not on Schumachers. He is as fast as most other drivers on the grid.

This contest is basically over anyway. Question is just how bad it will finish.

No, people didn't forget that Alonso is the only double WDC in the history of F1 to loose against a rookie. Sorry, my mistake, the only WDC to loose to a rookie. A World Champion loosing to a rookie, that is probably unheard of in any sports. Please tell me if that has happened in any sports before. Probably has, but since I don't know i'm truly curious.

What I am finding is that Fernando is much better at driving the car when its not perfect. I am sure the gap will be much smaller when they are both happy.
However, driving around problems is half of F1. That is why drivers like Jarno Trulli has done quite little, despite their apparent speed.
Conclusion: Massa not top level.

fully agree

I get that all Alonso fans want to tell the world how great of a driver he is. Isn't that what all about beeing a fan is. Believing that your favourite driver is the best in the world and trying to convince everybody else that your conviction is right. Well, let me tell you, you are not going to convince any one because the other guys has the same conviction about their favourite driver.

But on a more serious note, Alonso wasn't hired at Ferrari to beat Massa! If you didn't know, he was hired to win WDCs. So when you are talking about how great he is and who he's beating and who is overrated ask yourself instead how he is doing the job he was hired to do.

Don't bother saying that he's extracting the most out of the car because in the end no WDCs equals a look on the driver market for a driver who can achieve those goals.

Well I know that you are gonna say that Santander got Alonsos back, and you are probably right, but for how long? Santanders stock is not going up if Alonso doesn't win WDCs, no matter how many fingers he insures.

You don´t make any sense.

+1000

Schumi proved that Massa isn't a top driver, and he didn't get 3-4 tenths faster in the off season 2006-2007 either as some seems to believe. Felipe didn't improve that much, and and Kimi was a disappointment, even though he did win the WDC. Alonso or Schumi (our Hamilton for that matter, of course) would have won the championship in the 07/08 Ferrari quite convincingly I think. The difference in raw speed between Alonso and Massa seems to be in the same ballpark as between Massa and Schumi in 2006 really?

My point exactly. You can't change peoples minds. We are blind to our fanboyism. Yes, even me.

Yeah, and McLaren expected Hamilton to win the title last year

Well, Your hypothesis will be true if Alons wins the 2010 championship.

Regarding Schumacher winning in 07/08 i just want to inform you that when he tested with Kimi they had to take out 40 kg of fuel to make him equal kimis times . PR, you do understand what that means and how important that was to Ferrari and their legend?

Massa obviously is not the driver he once was. It's actually scandalous that FA isn't further ahead.

is not that simple since this year there is more competition whereas in 07 it was only two top teams..

no man, it has nothing to do with fanboysm, it's you, he's right, you don't make any sense at all

Did they, haven't heard. Did McLaren also invest double the money, compared to the other top teams, with double the amount of employees and with a car development that was started during midseason the prior season?

actually he reminds us all of the massa everyone knew

That´s the reason i say you make no sense at all.

Agreed. But I don't know if it's all just setup issues, or if Massa is not the same driver anymore after his accident.

No way to tell I guess, unless he comes out with a book or something later on in his life.

It's not an excuse. Did Massa take a spring to his head or not? If you can somehow verify to me it has not affected him at all, kudos to you. If not, stop trolling around and pretending that you know better then the rest of us.

Clearly Alonso is performing much better in the car currently, and Massa, is having "setup problems" that he can't quite figure out why he is so slow.

I can accept Fernando being faster then Massa, but there is no way in hell he is faster by .5-.6sec in qualifying if Massa IS ok and has no problems. Massa is/was much better driver then he is currently performing. Either something is wrong with his car/setup, or there IS something wrong with him after that horrible accident.

I appreciate your balanced posts and yes your'e right but at the same time I was responding to people saying that Schumacher and Alonso would have won easily in 2007.

Anybody with some intelligence knows that F1 is not that simple. For an example people has been saying that Schumacher can adapt to any car. Well he lost to Nico in the first 4 races and in Spain he beat him with a new car. You could say that he's not the driver he once was but when the car changed he improved vastly.

doctors did
FIA did
ferrari did
and massa did

end of story

Massa: "Fernando is a very good driver, but something has happened to me. Something is not going like I want, so I can't do the lap time or drive the car like I want. This is something that we need to understand, and improve. We need to understand what has happened, understand which direction to follow. I went in a completely different direction [to Alonso], and then back again. We tried everything. It looks like something is not working out to give the grip. This is something that we need to understand, but I'm sure we will."

Maybe a slight flaw in the chassis Massa is using as of this GP?

Ferrari and Massa himself have said that he is fully recovered from the accident, so you are the one trolling here. If you have proof that they are lying you should show us.



There you have the answer, he´s having problems with the car, the same as Alonso, only the latter seems to be coping a lot better with them.

Ferraris fault, not Fernandos. End of.

While his body might have recovered, there is no way of telling if it has affected his speed. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Because you like to believe it's all just Alonso? Typical fan-boy bullshit....


...and clearly Alonso is not struggling with the car/setup as much as Massa, or he would not be .6sec ahead of him in the qualifying! The difference between good and great drivers is a few tenths at the best! So if you like to live in your la la land where Alonso the magician can drive around car problems and beat his teammate by over half a second under normal circumstances, feel free to bury your head deeper in the sand. The rest of us can have a meaningful and reasonable discussion on what the hell is going on with Massa! It takes nothing away from Alonso to accept the reality he is NOT .6sec faster then Massa under normal circumstances.

Of course, your welcome to believe Alonso is head and shoulders above the rest, but don't expect to be taken seriously by those of us who have long-term knowledge of the sport itself.

but Alonso is simply faster and the reason that the gap is slightly more than the usual 2/3 tenths is because of what Massa said. . He is having setup issues.. This has nothing to do with the injury.. because in Bahrein Massa was right on the money the whole weekend.

you taken seriously?

just to dismantle your last post, check the difference of alonso with piquet, fisico grosjean or villenueve and then use your so-called common sense

You could be right, or you could be wrong. It's not like Massa is going to come out and same he is not the same driver anymore, cause it would ruin his future employment opportunities. Thats pretty obvious, isn't it?


Either way, he has to lift his game or it's all but done for him in F1.

Ok, I understand that you have a problem understanding what i'm saying.

I'm not the kind of person to be direct but here it is; I believe Alonso is the most overrated driver on the grid, i'm not saying he's a bad driver because he's not, it's just that he's not a fast driver. He's a political driver who doesn't want competition from his teammate, he prefers a slow teammate and if he has a quick teammate he tries to beat him off track rather than on track.

In this competitive and even era i'm sure that Alonso will not win any WDCs for Ferrari unless they make a car like the Brawn -09 or the Red Bull -10.

Now, I can't wait for the responses for this post. I have already taken cover. If I don't post any more today, see you tomorrow.

yes, but to me the fact that he was very competitive in Bahrein, his first race after the injury, blows your whole argument out of the water..

I dont think the gap between Massa and Alonso is truly .5, but what I do think is going to make the difference all year long is that Fernando is not gonna have these sorts of bad days very often. I saw both drivers struggling with traction, but its Alonso who made the most of the situation. When things aren't going your way, top drivers tend to be the guys pulling something out of the bag. I've seen Massa do it, but he doesn't do it nearly often enough.

No offence, but:

"Fernando Alonso produced a perfect example of his skill behind the wheel to put his F10 on the second row of the grid, by setting the fourth fastest time in the final qualifying top ten shoot-out. The Spaniard had struggled with grip levels all weekend, but somehow pulled out a brilliant final lap, while his team-mate Felipe Massa, suffering the same problems , did his very best which in the end was good enough for ninth place on the fifth row."

From official Ferrari site: http://www.ferrari.com/English/News/Formul...n_the_rest.aspx

They both had the same problems and Alonso did 20.9 while Massa 21.5

The thing is, you can't verify either that he is affected. Realistically this will be up in the air forever, there is no way to prove either side.

And the issue is further complicated by people who simply can't accept that Alonso may be consistently faster, for obvious reasons.

It was obvious since Massa's accident that there was a very real possibility that he might not be able to return to the top level again - the top level here being a F1 driver. By now it's safe to say that he still has the capabilities to compete in F1, it's not as if he's 3 secs slower and a safety hazard, far from it. All that happened so far is that he's overshadowed by a double WDC in 4 out of 5 cases, mostly between 2 and 5 tenths per lap.

Now the question is, how are the odds that he would return, drive a F1 car perfectly fine, but just losing a tiny amount of speed?

In a sport(?) where everything is measured to a .001 second there necessarily doesn't have to be anything wrong as such but how can anyone know for sure? There's no way to tell because even half a second is not a lot when the lap is ~1.20..Only in F1 it makes a world of difference.

Its clearly more than that and there are countless examples of it. A few tenths is the normal team mate gap variation, so for a great driver is obviously much more. Great drivers are capable of destroying good drivers and Alonso has done it many times in his career so I dont understand what is so hard to beleive here. . . The thing about Alonso as told by his previous engineers is that he is a master of adapting to a cars handling issues, so if the car is great Massa will be close but if its not then Alonso will murder him.

One race? Nice try, but not likely.

My argument can't be blown out of water. That is a fact. Which was my point, you might think it is silly but it is far from a fact that the accident didn't have an impact on poor Massa.

It could be just the car/setup, or it might not. That is something YOU need to accept. There is no verified "truth" or "fact" in this argument. It's all opinions and semantics.

The only real fact we have currently is that Massa is struggeling greatly, while his perhaps more talented/better teammate is not, atleast as severly.

What's up with Massa? Almost 6 tenths off Alonso.
Is Alonso that good?
Was Kimi that bad?

It cannot be the chassis as Alonso has been so much quicker than Massa in all the grand prix so far barring bahrein

I'm really starting to use Alonso times as the Ferrari benchmark... It's kinda sad though as I always held Massa in high regard. Also this spells trouble for the WCC... Damn.

I am not. I am just ridiculing the people who pretend to be armchair experts, doctors and psychologist.

You know, those who claim they know for a FACT Massa has not been affected by his accident.

Alonso is not a fast driver..


That' s a first..

we just listen to the implied, and massa confirmed it, ferrari confirmed it and doctors confirmed it, what a better fact than these?