Are you guys seriously drawing conclusions from these tests? Rain, completely unknown testing schedules...
There is absolutely nothing to conclude yet. I think it is a pity that the testing restrictions is so hard that they can not have two, or even three cars on track, but that's life. We will know a bit after after the first qualifying and a bit more after the first race.

To be fair if any driver went to Ferrari and Massa beat them then I would think retirement would seem a good option to them.....

Na, I can't imagine then not giving atleast a equal chance even if Alonso is no:1. If they don't I'm sure Massa's temperment will let us know. Unlike Irvine and Rubens vs MS, Massa has a lot of fan backing.

There are some funny posts in this thread.
Like I said earlier comparing Ferrari in 96 to Ferrari in 2010 is an utter joke.

Ferrari in 96 was in a totally different position.
They hadn't won a WDC since Schekter in 79 and no WCC since 82(?). The team had not been near a WDC or WCC for a decade at least (with exeption of 90). The arrival of Jean Todt some years before 96 had lay the foundation of the Dream Team but there was aq long way to go.
The previous years had been pretty disappointing with 2 victories in 5 years, Berger in Hockenheim 94 and Alesis inherited win in Canada 95. That was it.
In the 96 the team had also a new V10 engine that took a while to perfect.


Compare that to Ferrari 2010. The same Ferrari that had 2 "bad" seasons in a decade. (05 and 09). The team that won WCC in 07, 08 and a WDC in 07. Lots of victories even in the years that they didn't win the WDC. And the initial tests are indicating that Ferrari has produced a great car for 2010, capable of fighting for the WDC.
To compare that to Ferrari 96 is a no-brainer really.


The only ones who like to compare Ferrari 96 with Ferrari 10 (or even claim that Ferrari now is in a worse shape than in 96 ) are either fans who started watching F1 in 07 (and have acces to Forix) or fans who are out to "invent" imaginary conditions that makes their favourite driver look better...




It also seems that the "war" between Massa and Alonso has already started, at least in the media.
This is gonna be a fun year in the Ferrari garage.

I have an even more interesting question:

Will Button humiliate Hamilton? Macca war will be outstanding.

I should open a new thread.

I doubt it, Lewis has never been beat by a teammate

Massa was never as fast as MS, he went from being 0.5s slower than MS to 0.3s quicker than Kimi before Kimi got his act together

Isn't Kubica trying to line himself up for the 2011 Ferrari drive?

well, many voices state that most of ferraris key personal left recently, weakening the team considerably.

ferrari finished the 95 season with a single win, similar to the 09 season. ferrari finished the 95 season in 3rd position concerning the wcc, while ending up fourth in 2009.

about 2010 compared to 1996: schumacher acchieved three wins back then at the prime of his youth, so this should be some benchmark.

I've propably said it before, but Massa's biggest opponent is not Alonso but spanish press.

I agree. When Alonso was with McLAren, the Spanish press was all for tehsilver arrows. Now that he is with Ferrari, they are all for Ferrari. They have a bit of soccer mentality although it makes sense. One think however in not going to change: he cannot do wrong (like LH for the British press though)

I don't thinmk Alonso takes any prisoners. He only races to win and he is the closest think I can think of to MS. Massa is not like him. specially from the engeineering aspect. I see Massa more like Kimi. Just get the car ready and I ll drive it to voctory. Alonso, as the Ferrari managment said as well, is way more advances=d in filling in his engineers with inputs - like MS as I said - plus a natural instict to be fast. Massa has to work hard to be fast - like Button. Really hard. Alonso, MS,Kimi, Lewis, they have it in their DNA and that's why the won championships and Massa has not and will not.

And what did Ferrari do in 08 and 07 compared to 94 and 93. It is laughable to compare this years Ferrari and the 96 one. The 96 one could hardly last a race distance without some problem or the other. Ferrari are in a much better spot today than in the 90's when they had completely forgotten how to win WDC's and WCC's.

So true! In 1996 with a completely new car designed for new V10 engine (which replaced V12 engine in Ferrari 1995) Schumacher and Irvine sharing more than 10 car failures, the fact that I have not seen recently for quite few years for any teams.

Oh, surprise, like Alonso.

But hey, Lewis is God. I know.

All we know from testing so far is that Alonso and Massa are both doing great work for Ferrari. They are working brilliantly together and it seems to be making Ferrari focused towards maximising the F10 for this season.

alonso has been beaten by lewis in 2007 and by trulli in 2004 (until trulli got sacked)

no driver is god though.
staying invincible to team mates is not the only thing on their mind. look where trulli drives now and where does alonso
losing to another driver is not the end of the world.

When Lewis hit in the back of Kimi and practically ruined Kimi's chances against Massa in the championship, the britt press said this accident had to happen and it's part of the learning process. I don't think Massa will get such luck again.

Please don't let this thread deteriorate into Alonso v Lewis.

I thought that Alonso won the same championship points that Hamilton, and more than Trulli.

Maybe i am wrong.

It is about talent. The technical side is very important. MS, once said that to be naturally fast you need to understand where is the limit of the car, to be one with the car, to have as much speed as you can in the middle of the corners. To do this you need technical skills also. Between the actual grid Alonso is the closest to Michael in this aspect.

But that is not all... others can brake later and control the car very well (see Lewis). All in all, it is all about talent, determination and work.

yeah...massa hard worker almost won a championship (for about 300m he was wdc) in front of dna talent lewis.
you're classification of drivers is laughable...they all have it in their dna, this is not weekend club racing, it's the top of the top. differences are small and championships are hard to win for all of them...and also some things have to add up to get a sniff at it. button is a very good driver but could he win it without the super-brawn? we'll see this year.
kimi has got it in his dna but over 2.5 years he was not by any means performing better than massa.
lewis barely made it on by passing a struggling toyota on the wrong tyres for the rain...etc
championships are about opportunites, work, a touch of luck and a great car.
all of them have got talent. and speed

I agree there. The British press absolutely love Lewis, but the moment he puts a foot wrong like the lying scandal for example, you'd think they'd want him hanged in the streets. They're so fickle when it comes to out sportmans its almost laughable. Last season when Button won 6 out of the 7 races he was a national hero, and when he went through his dodgy spell and there was a chance he would lose his advantage, the tabloid press turned and went in for the kill before changing direction completely to national hero again LOL.. Got to love 'em..

As I see it this is Massas' last chance season - he will still have the team behind him now to a certain extent - if Alonso beats him then that will evaporate pretty quickly.

It will be very imteresting though to see what games Alonso plays if he cant get the better of Massa immediately.

It depends by how much he is beaten, if indeed he is. Personally I think he will be, but it won't be a whipping.... Maybe last chance for Massa to keep WDC machinery short term, but I can't see him "evaporating".

I don't think Alonso will play games this time. He will get on with the job and drive as fast as he can. He knows that if he behaves problematicly he will not get many chances in winning teams again. And I don't think the situation is bad for Alonso. He has a big sponsor so he doesn't need to perform immediately. Massa on the other hand, he still has a lot to prove and cannot afford being beaten by Alonso. If Alonso starts beating him more often than not, he may be forgotten in the end. So I except Massa to fight in a tough way to keep Alonso behind him. They might even crash together, and if it happens I except the blame to be on Massa.

Something just struck me about Luca's comments last week. He said;

Has Massa been damned by faint praise? Compared to Alonso, the description is underwhelming. I think Massa has a serious chance of equalling Alonso this year, but does this suggest it is not Luca's expectation?

Well didnt he expect Kimi to beat Massa as well?

I think only a few Brazilians and many Mclaren fans believe that Massa has a chance against Alonso.

The great majority of Journalists when thinking on Ferrari's chances this year think of Fernando.

Whatever he expects, he shouldn't say it. In these press talks he's just supposed to worship both drivers, and he kinda failed at Felipe's part.

I think they're right. Alonso ought to be the ultimate winner. But a) I think it will be closer than you think and b) Luca didn't do a great job of selling Massa to the team.

For sure Montezemolo bet is Alonso.

Well, if Fernando Alonso does the same as Kimi Räikkönen, wins the WDC whilst Felipe Massa doesn't win it, then I think it should be safe to say he has beaten Felipe.

Now, I know there are some people here who don't agree, they seem to think winning a WDC over your team-mate does not mean you beat your team-mate. They probably have a different criteria as to who has won and I guess us who focus on the official results of the FIA F1 Championship can safely ignore them.

Sarcasm: Oh, and I'm sure Felipe will be proud he can tell his children and possible grand-children "You know what kids... I was a F1 WDC for 300 meters." Which is non-sense of course, but whatever, go ahead...

maybe he's just trying to reassure people Massa's fully back on form after his injury? Anyway, nothing surprising if he prefers Alonso, he's a bigger star than Massa. If he thinks Alonso is no better than Massa, he wouldn;t have gone through the trouble of firing Kimi to bring Alonso in.

montezemolo's bet was kimi instead of michael and we both see he's not that good at gambling.

2006, 2ond MS behind WDC Alonso
2007, Kimi WDC

anything else than Alonso beating Massa will be "strange" to me....

2008, 2009? champion like behavior, performance?
not quite. he ends up without a top dirve in f1, and goes to rally
how convinient to have selective memory, isn't it? I just played you're game, in my opinion kimi was not the problem at ferrari and fernando was not needed.
we shall see this year

I guess once youve won the WDC you can just turn up for the pay cheques

Was Kimi 0.5s quicker than Massa?

Irrelevant. A WDC ends all conversations.

Not in this thread it doesn't.

Given that the Ferrari F1 team officially gave up in 2009 except for one certain Kimi Räikkönen who kept pushing like hell even with gasoline in his eyes I don't think what you seem to be implying would be true.

Also in 2008 that guy kept insisting he is not giving up on the WDC and insisted he wants to win but of course you wouldn't believe what the guy himself is saying. If you review what was being said back then you can find that many in the media seemed to be upset that Kimi refused to give up. They were trying for several race weekends to get him to say he will give up but he refused to do so. Did not sound like someone who has lost his motivation. Someone who has lost his motivation would not have cared about such things. Kimi cared because he got visibly and audibly upset (I saw an interview in his native language recorded right after he had walked out of a press conference and he was clearly agitated that some journos expected him to say he will give up) at the suggestion that he should give up. And perhaps you would like to conveniently ignore that the guy finished 3rd in the Championship - which by the way is better than finishing 4th.

If Alonso wins then he wins. Just like how Kimi won - he won, so he won. It's as simple as that. There is no sensible way around that. The bullshit has to stop somewhere.

Of course it's the same with Massa - if he wins, then he wins. We give him the credit for that. And unless he has won a WDC we can't give him any credit for having won it. It would just not be sensible - in my earlier post I did laugh at some suggestions that Massa has been a WDC for 300 meters, or for a few seconds, as I have seen mentioned many times even by Felipe Massa and Luca Cordero di Montezemolo. By forum standards they could be classified as "trolls" for saying such false (and perhaps even offensive to many people) things.

I would have liked to call Kimi a Champion after the 2003 season - but I didn't, not even once. Wonder why? Because he didn't win it. The fact that he came close to winning it does not give me or anyone else the right to say he was a Champion in 2003. I will indeed apply the same standard to Felipe Massa and to every other racing driver ever.

I suggest some people drop that "Felipe was a WDC" bullshit. You are not only embarrassing yourself, but also Felipe Massa, when you make such claims. Too bad it started from the top... I kind of understand you for following the lead of the Ferrari Chairman and Felipe... but drop it, seriously, it's embarrassing.

I think Alonso is better, but I do leave some room for Massa beat him. I would not underestimate him. I'd give around 60-40% in Alonso favor.

Alonso's first year - I imagine it will be like Kimi's first year. Lots of attention will be paid to his car, parts replaced, improvements made and Massa asked to support his bid for 3 time WDC. But there will be an internal battle I bet. When Alonso is not WDC - and he won't be in my opinion - then I don't know what Ferrari will do; we will have to see.

Definitely. Massa has proved the doubters(myself included) wrong too many times over the past few years for me to *ever* write him off again.

But then again, I never rated Raikkonen as much as some did(and I'm a Kimi fan). I always thought he was really good, but never 'the fastest man in F1'. I definitely think Alonso is in a class above him, which makes me think that Alonso will be bringing home the more impressive results on average over Massa(who proved quite equal to Kimi).

As for this weekend, this is Massa's prime opportunity to put a stamp down if ever he has one. He's always been good at Bahrain, and he's got experience with the team already, which will be an important advantage in terms of getting up to speed quickly and having a good race car for Saturday and Sunday. If he can put one over on Fernando this first race, its gonna make an impact on his own confidence, the team's perception of Massa, and Alonso's mental strength.

Its kinda like making sure you get the first punch in a fight. You want to rattle your enemy and make them doubt their ability to beat you.

Can Alonso beat Massa? Is Pop catholic?

Never met your pop, wouldn't know.

Isn't it funny that right after I post I found this from Barrichello, saying the very same thing:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2010-...511_x.htm#Close



Why were you a Kimi fan if you rated other drivers higher and didn't find him to be particularly fast? You liked his helmet design best?

Exactly ... take 2007 for example ... someone asked Kimi what was the feeling after he crossed the line ... and he says ..." we werent sure as soon as i crossed the line , there were some cars to cross the line, so we were waiting for that ".... ( hence the radio message was like 'its all over! hamilton 7th ,by my calculation we win the championship by 1 point' )

and that is something i feel Massa needs to grow up with , be more of a thinking driver ... another example .....upon hearing Kimi got second place at hungary , his response was 'i could have won it' ... confidence is good , but this is a bit childish in my opinion ... he talks with his heart i think .