As a Lewis fan you cant really say that Alonso didnt cut it, only as far as not being able to establish himself as the #1 driver

and if it's the other way around should alonso be shown the door?

Istambul
Felipe 3 poles and 3 wins. very good.
Fernando 3 podiums here, good too.
they can go fast here, no doubt
but the most pressure in on Felipe though
he MUST deliver here to keep respect
tyre problems is not good enough excuse if Fernando gets grip from the same car
there has been plenty of time for adaptation and its time for the brazilian to shine again
he will (i fear, as fan of Fernando hehe)
but main rivals are outside Ferrari my friends.
and its not only Red Bull.

Massa will not be quicker than Alonso

that doesn't answer my question

so?

evenly matched? in all the races they had traffic ahead...what kind of question is this to suggest any solution to massa's problems?

bahrein...evenly matched with vettel ahead, massa nowhere near fernando as soon as fernando led the race

australia...evenly matched as soon as kubica was slowing them down, massa was nowhere near when fernando jumped from last to massa's tail

malaysia, massa pace was a joke

china, massa lost all over the race

barcelona, other day to forget for massa compared to fernando

monaco, fernando with a tank full nearly matched massa's best lap time after 50 laps of race...

Dude , I am a big Alonso fan , and I guess you are too , but sometimes you go overboard .. they both had full tanks ....

I don't want to be rude but I don't think F1 is the best sport for you to follow.

Every driver is beatable. And that largely depends on how the car suits them in a given period. Massa is having trouble with the tyres and setup. Likewise Schumacher hated the qualities of the Mercedes and was duly beaten by Rosberg. It happened to Kimi when he was at Ferrari (yet he still managed a WDC, WCC and a stellar win in a dog of a car in 2009.)

Alonso has made more mistakes this year but he has also been driving out of his skin which has been impressive. Massa has struggled by comparison but still managed to bring the car home for a nice points haul. Turkey will be a great test but unless Massa has solved his car issues, I'd give the edge to Alonso.

if alonso beats massa fair and square in turkey.... this thread needs to be closed. what say?

Dude just stop with the hate man.

In case you don't know everyone start with the full fuel tank and Alonso and Massa have the exact same fuel weight since they driver the same car with the same engine.

As for Nando being miles better, then why is he only has a lousy 14 points more than Massa? That a lousy 6 more points going by the old points system... An AVERAGE of 1 point more per race

Keep on hating

I dont remember Alonso 'not cutting' it.

Alonso vs Lewis was a great, close battle.

Which in the end meant that Lewis beat the bull because of the rules, point system, force majeure etc. The stain on Alonsos CV will always be there. Beaten by a rookie in the same car. Hilarious if you think about it. Because, can God really be beaten? Or is God above being beaten by a rookie?

I think you're being a bit overdefensive.

Who's calling Alonso 'God'? I'm not. I think Alonso is very good, though. Going up against Alonso was always going to be a tough swallow for Massa, and its no shame to get beat by a top driver. The best thing he can do is beat Alonso here and there, and try and maintain the sort of form he saw late in 2008. Whether that'll be enough, I dont know, but Massa can still come out of this with a great reputation. But he needs to get back on his game, and he cant afford to be inconsistent, which he can be.

I'm just being realistic. And I'm not a huge Alonso fan. I like Jenson more than I like Lewis, but I will still defend the notion that Lewis is a better driver.

Lewis's girlfriend has a title that JB's will never have!

The way i see it, only three drivers in F1 with raw talent, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton.

Kubica, Webber and Rosberg are also super quick but Massa and the rest are pretty average. Some people say watch out for Massa, hes quite quick but ive never seen it. Hes useless

He just made a little mistake, because he said full tanks. That was the only thing in his post that was not right, although his thought was right, because Alonso drove on much older an therefore much more used tyres, and still was faster than Massa.

But there are some users who just wait for one little mistake to get unnecessarily offensive (and forget all the rest of his post that was true!)


Back to topic:
If there is one track that Massa should be in front of Alonso, because on that track he has beaten Michael Schumacher and Kimi Raikkonen easily, that is in Turkey!

I see that race as a graduator for Massas possibilities to challenge Alonso.

If Massa is not able in Turkey to match or beat Alonso, than Massa will have to realise that against an Alonso who seems to be now at his peak he has no chance to come off as winner!

Hamilton maintained to stay in front of Alonso at the end of the championship (although both had 109 Pts) just because Alonso suffered the only technical failure in the Mclaren team in the GP of France an lost so some points.

Without that technical failure Alonso would have been in front of Lewis and also in front of Kimi, and therefore 2007 champion!

Technical failures happen and if there are two drivers who seem to be very equal that can decide the battle, as it happened in 2007!

Please let that be the end of 2007 discussion. Alonso v Massa - 2010.

Not true, his post was totally biased...

In Bahrain Massa out-qualified Alonso and then kept up with him quite easily until he had to save fuel for 30 laps until the end. IMO the bahrain weekend they were both equal, only difference was the start, that decided who was going to finish where.

In Aus Alonso made a mistake at start and dropped down, while Massa had an excellent start and passed Alonso. Sure Massa was slower than Alonso but in the end he performed better since he made less mistakes and managed to get him self up to 3rd.

In Malaysia, both Alonso & Massa screwed up in quali and in the race they were pretty even thought Alonso had a problem. I guess you can give that to Alonso since he had a gearbox problem. But he in no way destroyed Massa as the other user said he did.

In China, Alonso screwed up another start by himself and then got lucky that the safety car saved his ass, otherwise no Ferrari driver would have got points that race. Massa race was pretty average along with Alonso.

In Spain Alonso beat Massa fair and square but in the end also got extremely lucky to get the 2nd place in the race. He was faster than Massa but other than that it was a bad weekend for Ferrari.

In Monaco Alonso again screwed himself up but at the end of the say got lucky with the safety car which allowed him to make a free pitstop. Massa beat him fair and square.

In reality there isn't that much between them, Alonso seems faster due to Massa problems, but Massa has scored points in every race this season which shows he beats Alonso in consistency.

If Ferrari is even contemplating on replacing their beloved driver Massa for 2011 they surely must know he is not performing 100% since the accident. And still Alonso is no better, Amazing!

If that was so, then the FIA made a big mistake in Bahrain. They should have awarded 25 points to both Alonso and Massa.

I guess Alonso owning Massa on the first corner counts as both drivers being equal right...

I thinkt his performance this year has nothing to do with the fact he was in an accident last year.

He just can´t get the optimum performance out of the tires yet.

no doubt man, but cars consume fuel right? now have a look and check out when alonso did his best lap and when massa, then check out roughly how much fuel left had either and then come back again with a proper answer

I don't want to be rude either, but you don't support f1 at all, you just bash fernando

ok, so according to you, getting the best lap in lap 14 is done with the same amount of fuel than massa's best lap thereabout lap 50...

btw I appreciate massa, he looks a nice chap, very humble and hard-working, why should I hate him? just because I think his driving skills are just average? that's not hatred, is an opinion.

fernando is ONLY 14 points of massa, but if I were massa I'd be rather angry and frustrated with myself to be behind a driver who's done a few mistakes...quite embarrassing, massa 0 mistakes and yet 14 points behind...

my post totally biased? have you read yours? if even nicholas todt has declared massa is 0.5 behind fernando and they are looking for a solution

when I talked about the races I meant pace, not consistency nor positions. Just pace

and massa in bahrein looked .4 behind in q1, q2 and only a fernando's poor s2 in q3 gave massa the chance to jump in front. On sunday, as soon as fernando got fresh air, massa faded away, call it fuel saving or whatever excuse you want to name.

then in australia and malaysia fernando jumped from last to massa's tail in a matter of few laps, it speaks volumes about each pace.

I don't get it. Just to make it clear, you are saying that even though Alonso was heavier he was almost as fast as Massa ? Is that what you're trying to say ?

why does he keep getting into the last spot?

what I'm trying to say is that alonso's best lap was nearly as fast as massa's. When alonso got it was right at the begining of the race, with the tank full whereas massa got it nearly at the end, with much less fuel.

both drivers got their best laps without traffic

do you want to discuss about fernando poor performance and mistakes now? fair enough, let's do it, but don't compare their race pace because there is no comparison

Ah!!! That makes sence.

Nearly

Both car weight the same at all time during the race ( fuel wise ) , so there is no point of bringing the fuel weight into discussion here , now days all it matters is the tyres , they will give the drivers the ability to do a fast lap at any point during the race ( obvioulsy depending on how worn they are ) ...
I'm not trying to defend Massa here or glorify Alonso ( I am a big fan of his ) but please try to be more objective man , don't get blinded by your fanatism , comments like that make all of us ( Alonso's fans ) look like real idiots , you need to be prepared to admit when he does mistakes and accept them ( he is only human after all ) , and in Monaco he simply f*ked up in practice and that was his mistake ...

fuel is not an issue? so then can you explain why the cars are about 5 secs slower at the begining of the race?

I'm not the one who make you look like an idiot, you make it by yourself claiming lap times are not dependant on fuel.

And besides, you look even more idiot if you think I haven't accept fernando's mistakes, check out my posts please and try to write something convincing, btw nobody is talking about his mistake in free practice

Of course that cars are 5 secs slower at the beggining of the race because of the fuel weigth ( even a 3 years old can figure that out )
But when it comes to fast lap of the race your need to remember that those 2 cars ( in this case the 2 Ferraris) weigth exactly the same all troughout the whole race , the only variable here are the TYRES , and from that it will depend how fast a driver can be , but there is nosense telling you that fact , you won't understand , you really give all of us Alonso's fans a very bad name ...

I checked:

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/201...stest_laps.html

4 7 Felipe Massa Ferrari 68 15:38:16 159.251 1:15.503
6 8 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 73 15:44:50 158.408 1:15.905

So Felipe made his fastest lap with fuel for 5 more laps and even then his FL was 4 tenths faster - oops, facts destroyed what you have wrote .




Again, facts, not dreams:

Felipe's laps in Q1:

1 14:06:33
2 1:55.707
3 1:55.313
4 P 2:11.443

Fred's:

1 14:03:39
2 1:55.972
3 1:55.482
4 1:55.521
5 P 2:04.479
6 6:22.629
7 1:54.612

Ulalala, someone needed second try to do a better lap and it wasn't Felipe .


Q2:

6 1:54.331
7 P 2:04.438
8 7:49.178
9 1:54.387

10 1:54.265
11 P 2:07.534
12 7:40.418
13 1:54.172

4 tenths? Maybe in your mathematic system, for me it looks like 2 tenths .

Last try in Q3:

Felipe

S1 - 30.4
S2 - 60.8
S3 - 22.9

Fernando

S1 - 30.4
S2 - 61.1
S3 - 22.9

As you can see, they have identical times in S1 and S3, so what about "only poor S2"? Best S2 in all 3 sessions:

7 F. MASSA 60.731
8 F. ALONSO 60.845

So even Fernando's "good" S2 was slower than Felipe's .

BTW. It's Bahrain, not Bahrein.

ok, I'm indeed and idiot.

but answer these questions please
how much (roughly, don't need of accurate numbers) does a 2010 f1 car weight after 14 laps?

and now, how much does the same car weight after 50 laps?

and finally this question, is it the same getting a fast lap with 80 kgs on board as getting it with 20 kgs?

don't need to answer the obvious, you give yourself a very bad name, don't need of other fans to talk on your behalf

LOL, you don't get it. One thing is for sure, Massa doesn't find the six tenths joke funny anymore. For sure Massa is slower -note the abuse of the for sure expression.

ok, my mistake, I thought fernando's best lap was earlier in the race, but anyway it speaks volumes again, only 4 tenths quicker and 14 less laps on the tyres...


second try...and??? lap was 0.7 tenths quicker...don't embarrass your driver

ok, and you are proud of being 2 tenths slower
this time didn't post first try, did you? not interested on how fernando can do at s2 I see... good try


put fernando quickest s2 and tell me who'd be in front

anyway, I've checked fastest lap in monaco and on that point you are right, so my apologies on that

If Ferrari want to win the championship this year, they better put all their focus on Massa. Alonso said today it will be enough to match Massa's best performance in Ferrari, instead of doing one point better:
"as far as we are leading the championship on the last lap of the last race that's enough."

You don't need to be a point better to win the Championship. You can tie in the points but win by a higher finishing place.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Look here

If you compare the q1 and q3 times of Alonso, Hamilton, Webber, Rosberg, Schumacher, Button etc. you will see that each of those drivers have set an similar time in q1 and q3.That was in some cases about 1 sec. slower than the q2 times!
And all of the top 10 drivers drove their fastest time in q2 (except Massa, he setted his fastest time in q3 ).

(If you just compare the fastest times of qualifying Alonso set a faster time than Massa! Not to forget Alonsos fastest time was even set in fp3!!!)

That was the first race, and most of the drivers made a mistake to change the setup between q2 and q3 (in direction of a race setup, and not a qualifying setup)! (after this first qualifying, all teams never made the same mistake again, because it was impossible in race to overtake a car that is similar fast.)

Having said that, it is ridiculos to suggest that Massa out-qualified (was faster than Alonso) in Bahrain, without taking in consideration that most of the drivers except Massa (and in some way Vettel) have changed their setups from q2 to q3!
The true pace of the drivers in Bahrain we saw in q2 and not in q3

^^^^ I can't believe I'm hearing that...Massa was indeed faster, but that is offset because he didn't made a mistake on qualy setup...WTF?

If you compare the fastest times they drove in Bahrain, Alonso was about 3 tenth faster than Massa in Bahrain!

But as I said earlier, Massa chose to stay on a q2 setup in q3 (the only one who did so of all top 10 drivers and therefore had some toubles in race!)

But by far he was not faster than Alonso nor on saturday or sunday!

Please explain how teams change the set up of cars between q2 and q3 when the cars are in parc ferme conditions from the start of q1

in first race they werent! why I dont know! But that was so! We saw tat almost all drivers did a lot changes between q2 and q3!
First I also thought that parc ferme conditions forbid any changes between the qualifying segments, but in bahrain we saw a lot of working on the cars between q2 and q3. I dont know why it was allowed! In the other races, it wasnt so!
But the comparison of the q1 and q3 times show us that most of the drivers drove in q2 with a different set-up!

Isn't that what Massa would have done with one point more?

even under parc ferme conditions, some small changes are permitted, don't know whether it was the case in bahrein though