If that is what he genuinely believes then I couldn't genuinely disagree more or be genuinely less impressed. Quite what Felipe's hand was in recent races going against Alonso, I don't know, so why Alonso's issues with the safety car should mean Massa must give up his race to him and Alonso will deserve that win I don't understand.

If I got mugged on my way to work and lost £100 in my wallet, and my boss decided to give me a £100 pay rise and my junior colleage a £100 pay cut to make up for it, I wouldn't think I deserved my pay rise.

Seriosly, you can use your own brains when you read. Just read a few lines from italian newspapers, quess who they blamed for this opera? Right, Massa.

He could have said nothing, like Massa did? Instead of bragging that he was the best and fastest and the only one that deserved to win the race

Massa did a better job in the race, and that's what counts in F1. If you want points and wins awarded on "pace", go watch rally. In F1, track position trumps lap times.

In 2008 Kimi often probably had the pace to beat Massa, but his tyre problems meant that he qualified behind and often found himself a place or two further behind in the race. With heat in the tyres he was faster, but Massa did an overall better job and got the points for it.

Sorry, think you edited your post so I missed this bit of it and didn't reply to it in my previous reply.

I can see the argument for a draw: they were very evenly matched and ultimately the first corner decided the order, which (as you say) was less down to the skill of either driver and more down to circumstances. I suspect the Gareth Scorecard system may have an inbuilt tendency to try and correct for errors in the F1 WDC points position, where Alonso has 14 points more than Felipe that don't reflect performance IMO, hence the decision to give the score to Massa. Or, as you put it, the Gareth Scorcard system may occassionaly be fueld more by emotion than fact.

Thankfully the Gareth Scorecard system can be corrected quicker than the time to call a WMSC meeting and therefore I agree and will revise that to a draw. So 6-2 to Fernando this season so far.

racing is mostly about circumstances, what the heck are we talking about here?

alonso won 2 races in 2008 because of circumstances and not pace...does that count as luck or for him was pure brilliance?

the races in 2005 he won because kimi's engine was in trouble in practice do count of circumstances?
his suzuka 2006 win counts as circumstance?

come on, at the end of the day, you say points matter and bring up the argument that alonso has more than massa, therefore alonso has more chances for the WDC
ok, have it that way but then on track, in a race, postion matters so you can't have it both ways

BS. Stop listening to Ferrari propaganda.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/07/25/vett...-prix-analysis/

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/07/26/cruc...ri-team-review/

This is not very good analogy, because Alonso also did his share of teamwork that benefited Massa. There were two occasions earlier in the year when he quietly followed Massa without any overtaking attempts despite being obviously quicker, even more than in this race. And S.D. indirectly admitted that there were order to hold stations. Many argued that Massa took third place in Australia only because of Alonso defending his back against Hamilton and Webber - both of them overtook Massa quite easily earlier in the race. So I think Alonso has the right to feel that Massa has to do some teamwork too.

It says nothing other than your playing make believe races.

Alonso gets the point in my book. Clearly the better driver all weekend.

Massa was not 100% out of the champinsip IMO.


What if he had been allowed to win in Germany and Alonso goes bang in hungry? and Massa wins again he would be right in the fight.

I am not happy with Massa beeing that horrible Alonso's bag boy i thought he would of more pride.

Quietly? I remember him screaming that he was quicker

someone that can think for himself, and doesnt need a failure like Eddie Jordan telling him that he is part of a "very clever audience"

He really didn't, though. Took advantage of Vettel coming over on Alonso at the start, sure, but that doesn't mean he 'did a better job'. After that Alonso was always in touch, and when in clear air, finally showed that he clearly was the faster guy, as Massa was having his 2nd position threatened by Vettel.

When the car is clearly fastest, its NOT good to be hassled by an inferior car, and just makes letting Alonso win even more justifiable.

I agree with your comments but must ask, do you not think that Massa was completely demoralised by that point?

What? this thread still exists? There's no more Alonso Vs. Massa, It's Massa for Alonso now. Why don't we change the name of the thread to Massa 4 Alonso?

Isn't it possible Massa was doing the same? After all, he was further ahead of Vettel than FA.

Yeah, Massa was leading until he let Alonso past.

He really wasnt doing a better job.

You know, leading most of the race until you ahd to let your team-mate past because he couldnt do it himself.

Great one, wtf is your logic?

Button was arguably quicker than Lewis - always in touch as you say. But Lewis finished ahead... Still lewis did the better job. Fact.

Therefore Massa did the better job, fact. He made up 2 places at the start regardless of whatever reason and lead all the way until he was forced to let Alonso past.

Very twisted logic there indeed.

You say he "took advantage of Vettel coming over on Alonso at the start", I say he had the best start of the three. The fact that Vettel moved over would mean nothing if Alonso and Vettel also had a great start - he would still be slightly behind BOTH. Even if Vettel would lose more time drifting (negligible, or nobody would do it) Alonso didn't lose any and he started further foward than Massa. Or do you think Alonso lifted? They were just full on accelerating and Massa went into the turn cofortably first. It was a GREAT start, you're diminishing that just shows your bias.

Ferrari did the right thing. You only need to read the answer of Vettel in the press conference: "Maybe they should have crashed."

Of course, thats what a lot of people was hoping for...

I personally feel that the people against what happened are like that because they hate Alonso not team orders. It happens all the time, why no protests?

There is only 1 driver who wins the WDC and i hope its Alonso. Massa is out of it because of his poor performances earlier in the season.

So what your saying is Alonso had to be let thru because he is not capable of making a clean overtaking move.

Find another forum to post on if that's the best you can do mate.

You almost had me fooled there. I thought it was a crapy post until I saw the two thumbs up and then realised it's good stuff.

Yep, I guess draw is pretty sensible. Massa had track position with every chance to defend it to the finish until it was taken away from him, OTOH Alonso was simply that little bit quicker the whole weekend.

I agree
And, despite of this, i think (and i hope) Massa is back. He did a good weekend and a very good race. Good news for Ferrari (and probably for Fernando).

For these scorecard threads, I try and judge driver performance. Completely subjective, I know - but I give it a whirl.

For me, one driver has to perform better than the other to get the score. Ultimately what seperated the drivers at various points in the race was the start and the team order, both of which had little to do with either driver's performance in that race. So I went for a draw.

For what it's worth, I also called it a draw in the Button/Hamilton as ultimately the only thing that seperated them was how lucky/unlucky the were with encountering other cars at T1.

Alonso had a good start, too, AND from the dirty side of the track. He probably would have cleared Vettel if not for getting squeezed so close to the inside. There's nothing wrong with what Vettel did in my opinion, but had Vettel chosen to try and defend from Massa instead, the situation could have been completely different.

Basically, just because Massa was leading, doesn't mean he 'did a better job'. A variable outside either driver's control influenced who led and who didn't.

I think if Alonso had gotten away in 1st, he'd have shown he was absolutely untouchable, kind of like he did once he got by Massa. He was obviously quicker, as he pitted before Massa, yet still proved that at the end of the race, he still had pace left in the pocket to stop ANYBODY who thought they might want to put up a late charge. Alonso did pretty much everything right, in my opinion. Yes, he might have been a little rougher with Massa when he was trying to overtake him on-track, but considering the situation(golden opportunity to score some great points; Massa's not the greatest when it comes to close racing; Massa showed he wasn't trying to play the team game), I think Alonso did the right thing by not taking any big risks. Imagine if they had collided. It would have been a catastrophe.

No, thats not what I am saying.

If both Ferraris crashed, I wonder what would you be defending here? Maybe that Alonso shouldnt have tried an overtaking?

You can bet he would have tried it in any possible way. Like I said, Ferrari did right... and I guess Vettel thinks exactly the same. Its clear you dont, but thats fine

This time, I think Ferndo should get both 1st and 2nd positions.

Following his Behaviourist experiments, Fernando Pavlonso trainned his dog from the Massatiff breed to freeze once he hears the words "Fernando-is-faster-than-you" from his coach Rob and Snatch it.

Since the conquest of P2 from Massatiff is also a product of Pavlonso's years of trainning, he should get all rewards.

your analysis is horribly biased ..
Firstly Alonso didnt lift off when pushed by vettel..looking at the footage,its seems reasonably clear that both him and vettel were full on throttle..massa's onboard shown by BBC clearly demonstrated he was ahead of alonso even before he was pushed by vettel,so in all probability he wouldve ended up ahead anyway.

Secondly,if alonso started from the dirty side or wasnt given any room by Vettel and even if that compromised his start ,thats hardly Massa's problem,is it??


which racing always is...its never fully driver performance dependent...circumstances always play a role.simply because he didnt have the ideal start ,doesnt mean massa has to move over for him.




again this is all hypothesis...your post makes alonso look like some kind of superhero who's always better than everyone else.the reason why massa wasnt as quick as alonso after he got passed him was certainly because of motivational issues..how do u expect person leading the race for the most part and then ordered to move over to go a 100% after that.
the only FACT remains is that alonso was unable to close in enough on massa and overtake him on the track..period..i watched the race with live timing.there is no way one can claim alonso was consistently faster than massa throughout the race..the first stint saw massa clearly running away and building up a 3 sec lead...the 2nd stint ,massa struggled with tyre heat for the first couple of laps which was the only reason alonso managed to try an overtaking move in that phase of the race...the latter part showed alonso to be faster but we dont know what happened behind the scenes at ferrari.my guess is he was on the richer mixture as its hard to fanthom he suddenly became that much faster.



again what the heck did massa do wrong???...lead from the first corner,kept his teammate at bay until he was told to move over...

as someone mentioned above button was faster than lewis during the race,i-e right on his tail.i-e lewis didnt manage to build a lead ...does that mean he did a better job at the race...NO..lewis finished ahead and that is what matters...your logic makes no sense at all...massa deserved the win because he was in front of alonso and the latter couldnt overtake him fairly.

this is where internet forums get to me...simply because someone is a driver x fan shouldnt mean he should lose all objectivity and start defending even the most blatant of atrocities no matter how stupid that makes him look.

Excellent post

Thoughts about Ferrari fiasco: http://bit.ly/ba41uv

Thoughts about people blinkered by ridiculous obsession for one driver over all others: GET A GRIP. Follow football. F1 is about watching the greatest minds and talents on earth perform at the peak of their capability. They are all there to be admired. Supporting one at the expense of all others is not what it's about and stops anyone who knows anything about the sport being able to take you seriously. Grow up or go home.

"as someone mentioned above button was faster than lewis during the race,i-e right on his tail.i-e lewis didnt manage to build a lead ...does that mean he did a better job at the race...NO..lewis finished ahead and that is what matters...your logic makes no sense at all...massa deserved the win because he was in front of alonso and the latter couldnt overtake him fairly."

If the race were not arranged before the start, Alonso would stay on track with the softs as long as he could, as JB and NR did trying to overtake theirs teamates. Alonso never really tried to overtake because that was the order for him from the team.

god how much sh!t some alonso fans can write

LOL!

+1

I wonder what the excuse will be when Alonso won't win anything this year

What I find amusing is there seemed to be some timeline involved in Ferrari's racing strategy.
Of course, Ferrari could have switched the positions in a more smooth way, like in the pit stop, for instance.
And on track Massa resisted for some laps, making an effort to stay ahead of Alonso.
But at some given point, when the race reached some gate, Ferrari decided to make an option for team orders.
What this gate means exactly?
Is Massa given a bonus prize for letting Alonso go, since this race was his in a concrete way ?
Maybe if Alonso was able to legit overtake Massa, there wouldn't have a bonus.
Then, it wouldn't be something like strategically do something wrong to survive/stay inside a top team, waiting for the right circunstances to claim WDC.
In this case, I understand that morally, Massa would still be a victim at some percentage.

But If Massa was moved purelly on - conctractually agreed - financial reasons, then I reprove it 100%.
Then this thread is meaningless, there is no real rivalry among Nando and Flip.

What now, will Massa do this sh*t in every race until the end of the year ?
Will Massa throw his car over the opposition or do a Schumy to Irvine in Malaysia?

Yea, earlier I wrote that there's not more Alonso Vs. Massa, it's Massa for Alonso now, this thread should be closed, or re-named. I also question now weather we can truly judge their performances against one another this year.

Nice try, Massa fan.
Since Nando is whiping the floor with Felipe, it's better to close it.

Needing team orders to pass a mop shows the quality of FA's drive this year.

Amazing!

Massa was all over the place at times. If Alonso was able to put pressure on him and use his 'superior' speed and skills to pass his teammate with a legit overtaking pass - I would have cheered him on. Instead he accepted the classless option and then proceeded to treat the viewing public with contempt in the post race press conference.

I wish both of them crashed trying to overtake/defend each other. And we would have other race to look forward to feel better.

LOL you mistake me for a Massa fan? I must be doing something wrong then!! lol

Yes indeed...poor Alonso, not even good enough to pass a put-upon lapdog.

It will never happen.

he was all over the place on cold hards...once they were hot there was no chance he would have passed.

7 - 2 for Alonso.

He was faster than Felipe - have all of you guys not heard of letting the second driver fall back to 3 secs and then regain as fast as possible and prove if he is really faster? "Felipe, the race is on, you can win this race!" Why do you think Smedley gives such a radio communication to Massa in the middle of the race?

Based on this Felipe had to let Fernando through, as Fernando caught him quickly again. Not based on a team order.

Are you somehow trying to say that this is a common and well known system?

It would make sense if there competiton ahead of Massa, but as there wasn't being faster does not mean a free pass to the front, it means there were team orders.

I thought the same when i saw Fernando falling back and then closing in on Massa again.