I'm not saying that Alonso is not faster or shouldn't be supported now, but to dismiss Massa as "never in contention this year" is ridiculous. Anything could have happened after that "statistical blip" (which just means to me that he was leading the championship no matter the reason). And if that's the case Alonso has a 7 point "statistical blip" as well.

Why would a driver that was just demoralized and told to move over really try to keep up with the beneficiary of the order from his team. You think Massa was all pumped up and ready to stick it to Alonso at that point, he was at his best?

They obviously have to support Alonso now, but to come out publicly to embarass Massa now and to say Massa was "never in contention this year" is not fair to the man.

What does Montezemolo wants ?
If he puts more weight over turtle Massa shoulders, he won't go any faster.
Ferrari needs a new Rubens.

I was wondering whether this theory would get aired... you know as well as I do that if a competitor feels they are being sidelined by the team, they will do all you can to prove them wrong.

Just look at Webber's attitude this year - he has probably driven BETTER since the team told him to move over in Turkey. And look at Alonso at McLaren in 2007. He had an almighty fallout with the team, to the extent that they were basically racing against him, yet still pulled in as many points as the favoured driver.

Either way it doesn't reflect well on Massa. Is he #2 because he is slower than Alonso? Or is he slower than Alonso because he cannot deal with being #2?

I know Alonso is faster than Massa. No doubt. But to expect Massa to give up his win and immediately ignore that fact and then to try and go as fast as Alonso is expecting too much of any of the drivers. Can't compare Alonso at McLaren, he didn't have to give up a win. And Webber would have had the last laugh about what happened in Turkey when asked to move over.

I don't care if Massa is the #2, I just don't see the point of LDM coming out to further humiliate him. Do you?

I've said it a million times here - Massa had every chance to keep himself in the hunt for the title. He led the championship for that very brief moment after Malaysia, and then was nowhere to be seen for quite a while(as I said - ZERO podiums from Australia to Hockenheim). That was not because of favoritism, not because the car wasn't any good, etc etc, it was because Massa wasn't performing well enough to be a true contender. He's had a few instances of bad luck, but so has everybody. Either way, it was pretty plain to see that performance-wise, Massa wasn't really up to it for whatever reasons.

As for saying Massa hasn't been 'motivated' since Hockenheim, I think that its a lousy excuse. For one, Massa HAS done Alonso some good since Hockenheim in terms of performances and taking points off of rivals. I dont see anywhere where people are saying otherwise. Luca is simply saying that he hopes Massa will think of the team and try to perform his best for the team's sake. If Massa is going to sit there and be 'demoralized', then thats lousy. As Luca said, the driver drives for Ferrari first, themselves second. Massa can still put in some impressive performances and come away with his reputation intact, too. But in the end, if Massa wants to be 'regarded' in the team as a contender, he needs to actually BE a contender. Until then, perhaps he should look within himself and face the facts instead of trying to delude himself into thinking that what he was doing this year was 'mounting a championship challenge'.

And honestly, I think its an admission that Massa is weak-minded if we're to believe that he's lost motivation to do well after Hockenheim.

Since the RedBulls will probably be faster that the Ferraris and McLaurens in qualifying, the only way Massa can contribute to Alonso is making a very long banzai first stint and block the opposition after they make their pit, alowing Alonso "is faster than you" go through.
Of course his own race would be ruined, but Ferrari interests will be fulfilled.

I actually agree with this. my first thought when reading it was: Massa days at Maranello are counted. He might have stamped his feet a bit too much, while (that's the important bit) he hasn't really anything in hand, performance-wise. Until he really pulls something out of the bag, he can only be expected to be treated as no.2.

Exactly my thoughts on this.

Huh! Where did I say that Massa hasn't been motivated since Hockenheim? I was responding to sosidge and saying that in the race you couldn't expect Massa to chase after Alonso to show he can match him, in that race. Massa needs to get on with it for the season, but I don't see how LDM coming out the way he has is expected to motivate Massa to hold off the rivals.

Up to Germany FA had 3 podiums and FM 2. Not much of a difference. I guess you're trying to say that Massa had a bad patch. Can you imagine FA did not podium in Spain, he would not have had a podium between Bahrain and Canada.

Again, I have no issue with Alonso being supported from this point. I repeat, I just don't get why LDM feels it necessary to further publicize it.

As I said after Germany, I don't feel sorry for Massa at all. He should make his own luck and not expect any favours. Webber has been treated unfairly (my humble opinion) this year but he does the the talking on the track. Alonso (at least he believes) was treated unfairly in McLaren, he left a championship winning team and went back to Renault. Massa either should beat Alonso fair and square in the track or he should take his hat and go somewhere else to prove himself and save his dignity. Unless it's all about the money. He should be the hottest name in the market if he leave Ferrari. What is he afraid of? He may become the new Heidfeld? I would feel more appreciation for him if he for example went to Renault and fight with Kubica and who knows maybe beat him. That would prove something. It would be interesting to see his speed somewhere else away form Ferrari.

It's a good point. #2's never come away with any merit if they stay with the team. Rubens is a good example - a fine driver who was widely derided for his willing subservience during the Ferrari years. After a couple of years in the doldrums at Honda, he became the better driver at Brawn for much of the latter half of Jenson's title year, and is now solidly outperforming Hulkenberg, whose record suggested he was the "new Hamilton" before the season started.

If Felipe has some racing pride, he either needs to up his performances to match Alonso's at Ferrari (as Webber is doing at Red Bull), or walk away with his head held high, even if it means no pay. I'm sure he is wealthy enough. If he can go to Renault and match Kubica, he will earn a lot of respect.

Personally I don't think he has it in him, but my predictions have been wrong before and I'm happy for them to be wrong again if it improves the spectacle.

From Germany, where team orders were applied, is Massa doing a very solid job... In Hungary he was nearly 2 tenths off Alonso s pace, in Italy just one tenth and in Belgium he was even quicker then Fernando, who made a mistake on a damp track... Lately in Singapore it was bad luck, which stopped Felipe from being higher up the order, but still he finished 8th from 23rd on the grid...

it's not humiliating him, that's your assumption about his real intentions. I read the President of Ferrari "asking kindly" Massa for some help to win the Championships, since he's not really collaborating on taking points off Alonso's rivals, is he? Of course there's more to read between lines, but Massa was the one saying what a great professional he is...so I say: "Go and show us"

El Nano is a master politician and Massa is not strong mentally. It was always the Spaniard's intention to overcome the Massa factor.

This has been done. It is now Fernando's team - and this has always been Ferrari's way. They mold according to the drivers and remain extremely sensitive to the Italian press.

Alonso, Schumi and Prost - politicians extraordinaire.

I never thought that after what happened in 2007 I would hear anyone calling Alonso a master politician...

Really ?
I though he used the power of money to get his seat this year.

I'm curious to know if Rob "Zombie" Smedley would follow Felipe wherever he would go.
After all, Felipe is the one that promoted him from the testing team to race car engineer.
They really geat along very well, but losing the Ferrari race car engineer status is tough.

Alonso - a politician extraordinaire? Where was that trait in 2007?

What happened in 2007? Something I don't know? Alonso was just right on Mclarrens tails when they were favouring Hamilton.

Except they weren't, what upset him was being given equal billing and not No1 status.

And you have inside information? Yeah right, keep telling that to yourself.

Interestingly, Alonso himself has stated that he never asked McLaren to be #1 driver, but would not accept being #2.

He also stated that all he ever requested from McLaren was that they let him decide on his own race strategies, which Dennis did not accept.

But I guess we shouldn't trust him, and trust people who were never involved in those discussions instead...

Wrong pressure tires, extra fuel loads, less last laps in qualifying, dealing with the pressure of having to fight against his team, dealing with the press that was blaming him for poor performance against a rookie... and he still finished tied in points.

What would you do if you were Alonso? Accept #2 status to a rookie and keep your mouth shut? If Alonso did that I probably wouldn't be his fan.

Why should we trust his word more than anyone else's?

Who needs inside information?

Changing teams is never an easy thing to do and scoring 109 points in the first year, against the best team of the decade and quite possibly against a faster car, despite all the problems you mentioned, was in fact nothing short of amazing.

Yes, perhaps Alonso could have handled the whole situation better. But the driving was top-notch.

In fact, I would say that, haters aside, the 2007 season was a season of great performance, bravery and skill on Alonso's side.
Just as Hamilton performed brilliantly, so did Alonso.

and why should we trust anyone else´s more than his?

2007 again?

Alonso v Massa, 2010 please.

in terms of massa's motivation, not being allowed to win cant help...

That's clearly not true because if Massa was in the lead of a race and there was another car between him and Alonso, there is no way Ferrari would engineer a switch.

But Massa has never put himself in that position. He has only managed to finish more than one position ahead of Alonso ONCE this season, at Monaco, where Alonso binned it in practice and started from the back.

But given...



...it begs the question, at what point did Ferrari start focusing on Alonso and forgetting about Massa?

Unlike all journalists endlessly talking about 2007, he was there and knows first hand what happened exactly. And no, you don't have to trust his words more than those of other people who were there - just give him the same level of trust that you give to those others.

Every story has two sides: you have been given Dennis's (supposedly, because I don't remember any direct quotes fron Dennis to the press on this matter, just hearsay), now you are hearing Alonso's.

And in the Alonso-Massa relationship we may want to do the same: listen more to the people involved, and less to journalists that make a life out of creating controversy to sell more papers.

Edit: Sorry, Buttoneer, I just read your message. But if I may say something, it is difficult to avoid referring to 2007 when looking at the current Alonso-Massa situation. After all, we are speculating about that relationship based on what we know of the two drivers's personalities and characters, and logically people turn to 2007 as an example of Alonso handling his relationship with other teammates. For those who are convinced that Alonso went to extremes to get #1 at McLaren it is very difficult not to think that he would be doing the same now. , and I understand why - although I totally disagree with their views.

But I will try to limit those references in the future

I don't think that they have "forgotten" about Massa! But as to when did they decide to focus on Alonso, I think that Germany was the turning point. Had they taken that decision earlier we would not have seen what happened during the German GP: they would have switched their drivers around during the pit stops, in a more quiet and discreet way, and there would have been no back and forth in the communications with Massa.

Sometimes the obvious answer is also the correct answer. Which would be Hockenheim, wouldn't it?

Before they twice (?) let Massa hold up Alonso for whole races, plus Felipe fought tooth and nail everytime Alonos was close. In fact up to Hockenheim their battle looked more real than over at that other team recently, where one driver gives up a 5 meter advantage into the first corner, juts like that.

Well, not 'forgotten' maybe , but treated as the number two. It does bring up the question of why the order to Massa in Germany was so explicit. Had they asked him to move aside previously and he pretended to not understand/hear?

Obviously I don't know for sure, but I would think that they had not openly discussed the issue internally prior to Germany. Had they done so, any disagreement on Massa's side would have been sorted out (one way or another) during that discussion, instead of publicly during the race. I don't think that the way things went did any favour to either Massa or Smedley with respect to their relationship with the team, surely if the team had already stated that they were going to support Alonso for the title they would have acted in a different way. But who knows...

Maybe.
I think that everything stems from Melbourne. In that race, Massa got the message "Fernando is faster than you" but did not yield. Was he supposed to?

I suppose that occasionally the teams will have to give information to their drivers. I don't think that every "X is faster" or "save fuel" radio exchange that we have heard since Australia had a hidden meaning - sometimes it actually means that another driver is eating into your time advantage, or that fuel consumption is a bit too high!

But it is difficult not to get a bit paranoid and start seeing plots in every sentence when following this sport - I am often guilty of that

Indeed. Another good reason to scrap the team orders rule.

In the cut-throat world of Formula 1, "tires" is a poor excuse. Rather than trying to take Alonso out (Monza), Massa should learn from Alonso how to get the tires working for him.

I don't believe the tyre problem is a lousy excuse. It is just another aspect of how current F1 drivers are forced to operate within a tiny window. Back in 2005, McLaren and Renault used Michelin, but usually they chose different tyres for the GPs. That way, they could exploit the fortes of their cars, and their drivers. If a driver, or a car, had problems getting heat to the tyres, they could choose a softer compound and see if it solved the problem.

Since then, with the single tyre supplier, and the two compounds per race rule, drivers are forced to disregard they different styles and adapt to what is imposed on them by the car design, and by the tyres choosen by Bridgestone. It is not that F10 cannot get heat to the tyres (after all, Alonso is managing quite well), and it is not that Massa cannot adapt (lately he seems to be doing better than before). The problem is that if the tyres are more naturally suited to Alonso's style, Massa will face an uphill race against his teammate.

Next year the situation may be opposite. But I don't think it is a conspiracy against certain drivers. It is just a consequence of yet another crappy rule. If it was up to me, I would let the teams, and the drivers, choose the tyres that best fit their style, and may the best man win.

Then change the driving style or work harder on the car set-up, he is a professional driver. Felipe or any driver for that matter can't expect to have everything their way always. If next year he have the same problem, then what?.

I think 'the tyres don't suit me' is a lousy excuse. Massa is employed to be a Formula 1 driver, the Bridgestone tyres are put of the package of rules and regulations that we call Formula 1. If a team cannot build a car that uses the tyres as well as another team, they haven't built as good a Formula 1 car. If a driver cannot get the most out of the tyres, then he is not as good a Formula 1 driver as his rival. How can it be anything but an excuse, he has the exact same package as Alonso but usually cannot get it round a circuit as quickly as him, that means he is not doing as good a job driving the car as Alonso is no matter what the reason.

its the tyre temperatures sometimes you can do nothing about that alonso hasn't seen the best of massa yet

Nice first post

Given that reasoning Schumacher is a worse driver than Rosberg.

Andy

Thanks, although it wasn't actually my first post. When I signed up for this account I obviously forgot I had that RockyRaccoon account which I accidentally signed into today because it has the same password! Does anyone know if I can delete the RockyRaccoon account because I don't wanna be seen to have too many accounts. Oops.

Of course, you can drive more aggressively to get heat. I have seen Alonso change his style with every car and every year. The hyper-aggressive style of 2005/2006 (Michelin), moving to a much softer style in 2007 (bridgestone) to an intermediate style this year. Massa hasn't seen the best of Alonso neither. I belive Alonso will be untouchable (for Massa) next year with no gifts like this one in the first half.

He is this year. He has just lost that little extra that made him something special in my opinion. The Schumacher of old was touted for his ability to adjust his driving style to drive around problems, where has that gone? It's sad to see, I was one of his biggest admirers back in the day.