If GL would buy and re-name Renault Lotus, I'd give up if I were Tony. I wouldn't like to see two Lotuses fighting against each other. But I'd not sell TL name. Once GL has withdrawn I'd name my team Team Lotus, and until then I might earn some money by selling official Team Lotus merchandise.

Sounds like a good plan... However it has two weak points:

1. I think that Group Lotus will be in F1 longer than Fernandes.
2. By doing what you proposed in underlined part, Fernandes would only prove that this name means nothing for him ... oh, sorry, it means money and nothing else.

1. Are you sure. Jaguar were 5 years, so I'm not sure how long will GL be.
2. I'd do that just because that name would mean so much to me. Even if I don't use it, also people who I don't want to use it can't use it. And that merchandise business would just be to offer official Team Lotus merchandise for TL fans, partly to tease GL.

1. Of course I'm not sure - I've got no idea. Who knows. It's just a feeling.
2. When I hear the word 'marchendise' many things spring to my mind, but heritage, devotion, taking care of the great legacy are not amongst them.

1: No way. GL are embarking on a ludicrous business strategy, totally alienating their core customers at colossal financial risk. The chance of them being involved, in say 5 years time is quite, quite remote. This is precisely the reason why Team and Group were always kept separate.

2: I agree. Which is why this will not happen.

In my oppinion GROUP LOTUS vs TEAM LOTUS war, has less to be with F1 rights
In fact I think is really a Mr. Bahar vs Mr. Fernandes row.
I think Mr. Fernandes pursuits control of PROTON CARS as he is a susccesfull malaysian enterpreur and in buying TEAM LOTUS he is pressuring Malayan coverment to handle him the control of Proton and thus Group Lotus.
Mr. Bahar has to be frightened as Mr.Fernandes could be his next boss, and probably he would loss his CEO job.
Mr. Fernandes is from Malaysia and Mr.Bahar not............

Group Lotus will be in F1 for as long as it serves their re-launch. Their tenure as a team sponsor will end as soon as the re-launch fails, or as soon as it does so well that it stands up on its own. The only way for Lotus to stay in F1 long term is for someone to run Team Lotus as a going concern. Whether that happens by Tony fighting on and the name being used by the Hingham team, or by the name being sold to Group Lotus or GENII and used by the Enstone team, Team Lotus re-emerging as a proper team will is the only way to guarantee that the Lotus name will be in F1 long-term. If it's only a corporate marketing exercise (as GL's current plan seems to be), Lotus' commitment to F1 will be as shaky and uncertain as BMW, Honda, Toyota, Renault etc. We, as Lotus fans, are currently experiencing the first episode of Group's short-term outlook in the switching of the name from one team to another. Expect every off-season to have something like this going on.

Lotus Racing launched yesterday the Black and Gold Paint Competition, where fans can design the livery that the team is going to use in their cars next year. The winner of the competition will receive flights, accommodation, and be a VIP guest at their testing session in Valencia 2011.

I am assuming that Tony can juridically destroy the Group Lotus' F1 ambition with the risk that he may loose his backings. Tony is stating that he does not want it. This is at least his gesture to Team Lotus fans about his feeling. Tony still need money to run his team and for that what he need is a title sponsor like Petronas or even 1Malaysia. If Tony were to race under the 1Malysia flag the current Team Lotus fan may feel that they are let down, but let me consider two points here about Mr. Bahar:

1. Mr Bahar is an opportunist who wanting to make much money from Lotus Cars. He is perhaps less involved emotionally with Lotus. Therefore he will leave at exact time when he (will) make the most profit. Which could be as soon as within three years.
2. Genii is involved in but for how long we are not certain. The whole sage involving Renault Formula One team is that even though they won multiple championships the team still have pressure to make financial sense.

So selling Team Lotus name to GL is a starting of a betting and rolling, it will go down the path and Bernie will not sponsor any potential team who wants to race under the flag. Rightly so, it is like imagining ... do you want HRT using Lotus name at the back of the grid?

With the condition that Tony Fernandes is a man that who:
- is finding love to beat the giant in racing when it can and as many time as he can.
- does enthusiastic about the Chapman's Team Lotus.
I rather prefer Tony Keep his right, but make himself rich in the mean time in order to achieve a better fighting position at the immediate future as of now.

Here is the template:
http://www.lotusracing.my/media/299823/whi...%20template.jpg
The design need to be sent to livery@lotusracing.my .

I see no diffrence between Fernandes using Lotus name and HRT using Lotus name. Both those teams run at the back of the grid and both doesn't have anything to do with old Lotus, except the "name"...

Tony was fun of Lots at least and have aimed to bring it back.

OK I'm probably missing something here, but that sentence made no sense to me

Looks like it will go like this

TF: I have Team Lotus name, courts in London will rule my favour and since I have records of owning it and having bought it from Hunt who in turn bought it when the team went in 1994, I do have the team ownership. This is now Team Lotus

GL: I have a stake in Renault, we are going to be Lotus Renault

FIA: Bullsh*t, that wont happen, this is f1, making a mockery of simply process' is our job not yours, names have to go through us before change anyway and we aren't letting renault become lotus renault

TF: my team is team lotus

GL: Oh.. f**k...


Group Lotus' plan is rediculos. Lotus make small lightweight sports grippy cars. That's what they do. That's there niche, there thing, if you want that, it's what you buy, and that's coming from an Australian, so I don't have any want for britishness or anything like that.

Group Lotus want to challenge Ferrari (ferrari is a culture, a brand, a symbol, lotus is something most people outside of the motoring world hasn't heard of), but want to use of there power toyota engines, toyota don't make a single supercar to borrow engines from so they are buying engines they willl have to tamper with themselves. THen GL want to move into F1 where they don't own the house and are funding all of this through taxpayer money.... dear goodness. Even Australian governments aren't that stupid... and we have some truely braindead politicians here

It's got something to do with fun, and Lots of it.

Ah he must mean Branson the Stewardess.

Tony liked the Team Lotus when he was still small. Since then he dreamt to race a Lotus car on the Formula One grid on day.

This is what I hope it goes to... TF proves in court that he owns the Lotus name... keeps it on his cars for next year and therefore blocks GL from putting their name on the Renault's..

Bahar is an overambitious corporate bully.

Since when FIA backs up some private operator rather than big industrial corporation? What this TF even did for F1? Nothing. How long he is in F1? A year? Why FIA would want to even bother with TF?

Because Bernie is friendly with him. The naming issue is a commercial one at heart, and the commercial rights belong to whom? FOM and Mr BC Ecclestone...

The French web site Tomorrownews F1 has a fresh article about the Lotus naming dispute. I'm not fluent in French, but it seems to say that Tony Fernandes will decide tomorrow, on friday, what Lotus Racing will be called next year. The article also seems to say that Lotus Cars has already signed a deal with Renault F1 team and will announce it shortly. (Please feel free to correct me, if I misunderstood the article.)

Those who haven't followed Lotus Racing on Twitter or Facebook might be interested to know, that the team has put out a poll on their Facebook page about whether they should use the name "Team Lotus" next year or not. So you still have a chance to voice out your opinion on the matter.

Black and Gold ?.Maybe TF will call team Worldwide Racing .

You don't understand: this is business. Not sandpit.

Ah, thanks

Hope he keeps the 'Team Lotus' name after all the effort he went to to secure it.

Proton does not have that kind of money to splurge on F1. I don't think the USD1.2B quote is correct. Dany Bahar must be day-dreaming if he thinks that Malaysians are stupid enough to fund his team that sort of money.

Even Petronas, the biggest corporation in Malaysia and at one time the most profitable Fortune 500 company in Asia would balk at that sort of figure. It's mind boggling to say the least.

Let's called one team"Lotus Renault" and the other one "Renault Lotus".

It makes perfect sense....

Proton does not put $1,2bilion into Renault F1, Proton invests those money into Lotus Cars. Lotus Cars puts around $30milion into Renault F1.

You could say the same to/for Renault.

BTW Tony may think the same as you.

What about just 'Renault' and 'Lotus-Renault'? That's what'll likely show up on our TVs come 2011.

The case of Group Lotus joining forces with Renault F1 Team has nothing to do with renaming the cars: they'll still be called 'Renault', just like a 'Vodafone McLaren Mercedes' is just a 'McLaren-Mercedes'. This combiation of constructor-enginebuilder is standard. And it means that Fernandes' cars will be called 'Lotus-Renault'.

All depends on whether Fernandes loses his 'Team Lotus' moniker to Group Lotus. But even if he does, that won't necessarily mean that the cars that are now know as 'Renault' will become 'Lotus-Renault', since that would need approval of several parties, of which all teams are part.

If GL bought Renault and tried to rename it Lotus they need permission from all the other teams. Fernandes would therefore be able to veto it. Not to mention the fact that Group Lotus has no history in F1 and therefore would be in a position where they could be challenged legally by Team Lotus which has historically always been involved in F1. This is in the same way as Apple Computers and Apple Records not having a problem with each other until Apple computers got involved with music distribution via iTunes and entered into Apple Records market area. That legal dispute only got fully sorted out this year.

They could become title sponsor and have the team called Lotus Renault but anything more would be very difficult for them.

Who really has the rights to the Team Lotus name. I found this comment:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/.../#comment-22915

Looks interesting. I'll read the PDFs later on.

Joe Saward replies to the poster, though:

Wow, I'm not a lawyer, but apparently the IPO-PDF says that in 2010 Hunt lost the right to use "Team Lotus" in "motor racing" retroactively from 2008.

What should be so important about class 35, "Advertising; business management; business administration; office functions", if you cannot use it in motor racing?

If Hunt really still has the right to class 35, he may be able to prevent anybody else from using it as a team name (or any business name), but maybe Group Lotus isn't interesting in "Team Lotus", if they can have "Lotus" or anything else.

Funny that David Hunt paints quite a different picture...

As far as the judges in courtrooms see it, Formula One is all about doing business by selling advertising services (i.e. advertising space in your cars). And Team Lotus Ventures Ltd. (which Tony Fernandes now owns) has the registered right to do this business in Formula One.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find...ults/o14703.pdf
According to a court decision from 2003 Team Lotus Ventures has still rights to use TL name in advertising servises in F1.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find...ults/o02610.pdf
Still, they don't have rights to that name in motor racing, but I suppose that neither Group Lotus, or no one else, has. So, if Team Lotus Ventures is going to race in F1, they can acquire the rights to use that name in F1. The reason why they lost the rights to use that name in motor sports was non-use, and I think they can get the rights back if they enter F1.

Wait! Why on Earth both TL Ventures and GL have trademark applications, including classes 35 & 41, at the moment?
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E9251497
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E9289737
When TL Ventures has lost its rights to TL name in other classes? They don't seem to have the rights.
http://oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/RequestMan.../en_SearchBasic
(type Team Lotus)

EDIT: I see you updated your post regarding the applications.

I imagine TL also included class 35 because the ruling took away all subclasses of 35 except for F1. I question whether the loss of 41 somehow disallows them from actually using the logo on the car, but 35 allows them to do business as Team Lotus. Seems there's some overlap there.


But yeah I don't know why Hunt did not re-apply for the TM's after GL had them removed. I don't know what sort of intent you have to show, or fees. Question is will Group Lotus be able to prove they have a right to Team Lotus to use it, or can you just co-opt a previous brand if they are no longer using it? Hopefully their is some impediment, otherwise Group Lotus may get gain use of the name in all except F1.

August,

Just clicked that last EU search link and typed only " Lotus ". Group Lotus successfully registered a TM for " Lotus Evora Cup " that uses a Lotus ACBC logo. And also that their application for the logo's differs between the 2, with GL trying to register a " Lotus ACBC " logo, and Team Lotus Ventures a " Team Lotus ACBC " logo. The GL logo has been opposed, but the opposing party is not the firm Team Lotus Ventures has used for past/present applications and ligitation. Judging by the dates from publishing to the opposition they have quite a few months to do so, therefore the applications by both, if they oppose each other could still happen for a couple months.


Some screen grabs.

Team Lotus and GL applications





Opposition to GL's above logo application



GL TM that is Registered using the Lotus ACBC logo



Process Chart



What's interesting is that neither side's application for the "Team Lotus" name have passed to the "Published" phase, therefore leaving an opposition their only impediment. How could they issue the same name for the same purposes to 2 different entities??

http://oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/RequestMan...;/en_SearchBasi
Seems that GL has application only for the name whereas TLV has application for both the name and TL logo. (logo seen on page 2 of http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find...ults/o14703.pdf ) Anyway, court concluded in '03 that TL is independent from GL, so if both TLV and GL apply for the rights TLV will get them. The only problem is that GL applied first. Otherwise, having two companies with same origins and same logo is not a problem. Car brand Saab has nowadays nothing else than name and logo to do with Saab airplanes and Volvo passenger cars are made by different company to Volvo trucks.

Anyway, as it seems at that oami.europa site that currently no one has rights to Team Lotus name, I'm wondering should I also apply for it.

This GL's "Lotus ACBC" logo is that one on theirs Lotus Cars website, right?
http://www.lotuscars.com/en/index

I believe they actually mean the Team Lotus ACBC logo:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/o21098.pdf

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find...Number=O/147/03

Judging by the above it seems Saward's observations are accurate. I suspect this is why Lotus Racing had to use a parody of the logo in 2010.

Just browsing the Lotus cars site and came across this little nugget:

http://www.lotuscars.com/en/1990s



So we even have Group Lotus themselves admitting they lost ownership in 1991 in their own marketing materials, no less!

Does anyone remember what kind of logo Team Lotus used after Group Lotus ownership?

It varied - but there was a commercial agreement whereby GL paid TL to carry branding, and it could be that the varying commercial input from GL meant the team used different logos. Indeed, the 1991 car carried "Lotus Cars USA" stickers at Phoenix. In 1987 TL entered a commercial deal with GL to use active suspension and carried group lotus logos in front of the radiator intakes of the sidepods.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonhimself/1433598868/lightbox/

(very wacky GL logo there)

The lotus f1 team have used a number of different logos through the years:

http://www.triple-c.com/images/stk11.jpg
http://www.snowmoose.com/LotusCars/TeamLot...s/TeamLotus.gif
http://static.motorstop.asia/blog/images/team-lotus-logo.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jane_sanders/...46382/lightbox/

The Essex Lotuses had a similar logo to the weird GL logo (I think)

Well that clears up part of it, and shows they have filed against each other using it.

Who gives a toss, after all this bickering I'd rather Lotus never be used ever again.

Start something new.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find...ults/o14703.pdf

This is actually quite an interesting read and validates much of what Hunt has said.

It seems a legal mess. Terrible to even scratching the surface of it.

Who has the more power and better lawyers? I think it's Group Lotus.

http://indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indyc...oms-with-lotus/

Interesting, so they have recalled Lotus Racing/ 1 Malaysia's contract, and are now going to race F1, Indycar (including as a engine manufacturer), LeMans, GT2, GT4 all on their own next year. Using Team Lotus's F1 heritage as the backdrop for all of it. So much for the prestige of Lotus in F1 racing that Hunt was trying to protect all these years. Seems they should focus on replacing their current line-up of fugly cars. All this money spent on racing and exposure to sell a few of those dogs. They better do well otherwise the Malay taxpayers are going to in for a ride.