You're missing my point, which is that even in a car that is suited to Kubica, Heidfeld would probably be scoring better results than Petrov.

Also, how can you prove that Kubica and Heidfeld are more apart from each other, driver style and car preferences-wise, than say, Hamilton and Button, or Vettel and Webber? Maybe, just maybe Robert's and Nick's likings looked so much apart from each other because of BMW's incompetence to manage them, and not because their likings were actually impossible to reconcile at all?

How can you prove that helping Nick compromised BMW's performance and development rate in 2008? It's possible, but perhaps they just weren't able to fully understand the revolutionary design they came up with that year, hence couldn't develop it properly? How do you know they slipped back because of helping Nick and not because of some other reasons?

0. Calm down ;)
Ad1. Look at Mercedes and their "no, these upgrades are not designed to help Michael Schumacher" talk ;). Some drivers prefer oversteer while others understeer and it has a lot to do with the construction of the car.
Ad2. Agreed. However a top driver can setup his car without any help so I don't see this point being connected to the main topic.
Ad3. Agreed. However you can't deny that after Canada they focused on Nick's problems (Robert said that himself and I have no reason not to believe him) with tires (and as I said it was a fair move). In the meantime they could find more performance and push harder and that's when Moaning Kubica began.
Ad4. Not in case of NH and RK, because they have different driving styles.
Ad5. Agreed
Ad6. No '08 BMW was not a crap. It was a decent car. Probably 2nd best at some point (at least 3rd). And yes, Nick's problems were similiar to Kimi's and that was similiar situation (car suited Massa well).
Ad7. Agreed. He was 1st in the standings after Canada and I see no reason why couldn't he remain at least on the podium (for a reason why he didn't, look above).
Ad8. Helping Nick DID compromise their PACE. Just look how close was BMW to Ferrari and McLaren at the beginning, and how far they were at the end.
Ad9. Well, yes and no. It's not everything about talent (look at McLaren 2007 f.e.).
Ad10. Agreed. However they had no choice but hire Petrov (he was the best from those who bring money not talent). Heidfeld got an offer ... and who else could get a seat ?? Villeneuve ??
Ad11. Agreed.

If you rate drivers looking at errors they make, then tell me what is your rating of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Massa (all of these guys made some silly mistakes in the nearer or farer past).

@swiniodzik
You may be right, that's for sure. But one thing I'm sure is that they didn't push as hard as they could and should, and that's what Kubica said so I'm gonna believe him. And yes, Heidfeld definetely would have scored more points than Petrov did, but thinking like this is pointless since he turned down Renault offer and prefered to watch races from Mercedes' box.

Good Evening all.
So many POSITIVES already in 2010, but I can understand the frustration that surrounds Petrov's inability to contribute more points.
However let's remember that it was the promise of mega-$ that booked the 2nd seat for Vitaly NOT his driving ability.
Sure he's a gutsy no.2 and a feisty competitor BUT, he needs to introduce an element of F1 race-craft to at least be consistently fighting for P9-P10, and to be able to take advantage when others fall off the track.
The car is fast and getting beter, I'd like Vitaly to do the same
Let's wait and see for a few more races, but I hope he stays on until the end of the season

Give Petrov a brake, huh? Couple of races ago everybody was praising him and now you are trashing him around like DiGrassi his Virgin. Why? Remember that Petrov isn’t driving the same car Kubica drives. He doesn’t get all the new parts Kubica is driving with. It looks like Renault (Enstone) is pushing hard, but for one car only. And what Petrov is getting are leftovers. And that automatically generates couple of tenths per lap. Add to that his inexperience and Kubica’s talent ... And Monaco only magnifies the difference. Look at Vettel: he was 0.4 sec behind Webber! That’s Monaco GP. It demands certain type of driver, Kubica is very much the type. But Petrov isn’t. He never raced in go-carts. Add that to older spec car, being a rookie and Kubica’s class and you have the reason why Petrov was second or so slower. Its that simple.
He has a very hard time at Renault and he isn’t complaining. Not a single whine. And yet you expect him to match Kubica or at least get close to him, everybody is, God knows why, and Petrov knows that, so he is pushing real hard and when you push to hard you make mistakes. But was he the only one? No. Alonso did the same mistake. Following the so frequent reasoning from this forum: if he did the same Alonso did, he is pair to Alonso and Alonso is 2 times WDC ...
Give bloke some time, at least until half-season.

And stop talking about Heidfeld, for Pitt’s sake.

I agree with metz. Kubica is just a lucky driver. If Nick was in the second Renault, he would win Monaco or be second, Robert would be fourth.

Eddie !? is that you !?

first post, but nice hit!

Considering that HEI was considerably weaker than KUB at Monaco - seriously doubt it, practically not possible.

It is too early to writ off Petrov. Yet, Grosjan will not get another Formula One dive. It is a part of the game. Beat your team mate or leave...

Source: www.f1technical.net

You know that I consider Kubica one of the top 3 drivers today.
And I'm not even sure who the other two are.

Both of those wing on that picture were used both in Spain and Monaco.

Wing on first picture was used by Petrov in Spain and Monaco, wing on second picture by Kubica.

Again, how do you know that Heidfeld turned Renault down and not the opposite happened? We just don't know that. You're making too many assumptions in your posts which are far from being confirmed facts, so let's just leave our dispute here.

Petrov brought in Lada, which Heidfeld might have more poblem with. Renault was 'sold' to Genii, and it was essential that the team generates financial stability elsewhere except Renault motor's pocket. The team is on it way to do so, and that itself is a good thing. Petrov showed some good racing, I should like to see him driving one Renalut till the end of this season.

You're the team manager of Renault F1 and you have a smaller budget than some of the top 4 teams. You have to choose how you spend your money, how much on each driver and how much on engineers, R&D, facilities, computation capacity etc.

Do you
a) choose one top line driver, one pay driver and the rest on the engineering?
or
b) choose pay 2 top drivers and cut millions out of the engineering team and their development budget and have a slower car?

What's your decision?

Renault has pick one second driver who is talented, but yet to prove, who has backing, so far so good.

If Renault were to go for Nick they should have had better funding.

Now the critical decision is for the next year. What would you do if you are the Renault Boss.

Would you choose not to work with Petrov and work on Heidfeld deal with the TV money which team has build up this year?

True. That may be the situation and I understand why they took Petrov to start with. $$$ talk...

My point of view now is though, that Petrov just isn't qualified for that seat and his performances show it. How long do they want to continue with a one man band? If its still a money factor then obviously they will keep him (probably next season too) but geez its a monumental waste of a competitive car.

Despite some of the rubbish pedelled here by people I'm guessing have not watched F1 previous to 2009, a Kubica pairing with any one of the drivers I mentioned earlier would be strong. Very strong. Alas for 2010 its far too late now.

I'll rephrase what I've been trying to say all along...

Whilst bringing in Heidfeld would be better for the WCC, it would be detrimental to Kubica or Heidfeld. If Renault decided to do the equal team thing like at BMW, then Kubica or Heidfeld (depending on who the car suits, which at the end of the day is what it came down to at BMW) would lose out in the latter half of the season. If Renault did build the team around Kubica like they said they would like to do, then that would be grossly unfair on Heidfeld who, on merit, is worthy of an equal seat.

I want Heidfeld back in the sport like the rest of you - I just don't want the same issues that appeared at BMW which will inevitably lead to another god-knows how many years of Kubica vs Heidfeld. I would like Heidfeld back at a different team.

Sorry metz but I have to take it:
6) This is obvious exaggeration, noone would lead championship in complete crap, it wasn't the best car, but definitely not a crap
8) There's simply no way you can know that, I'm not stating that it did, but please do not state it as a fact

People, This is Renault Thread. Please go here: http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?show...kubica+heidfeld

Thanks

Yeah, stop comparing someone who is not driving any more to Kubca!

To be fair here, Petrov should stay in the car the whole season. Look how long it took Alguersuari to get comfortable. Petrov may be underperforming now, but I'd say after the halfway point, he's gotta step it up. Kubica, well he's getting the most out of his car and may single-handedly take 4th in the Constructors championship. This team reminds me a lot of the 98-99 Jordan years right now.

This year reminds me to the years of 2003-2004 when the team was coming up (4th and 3rd places in WCC). And we all know what happened in 2005 and 2006 Hope history will repeat itself.

Turkey here we come (for the inevitable comment about the front wing - it's for illustrative purposes;))



Tech Talk - Why Renault can break the big 4:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/formula-1/wi...y/article/2872/

you had to spoil the The Fun, didn't ya?

True, that as well. I have a feeling Kubica will nab a win towards the end of the season.

What about rear wing then? You didn't forestall us, so I will ask the question:

Why Kubica has old rear wing while Petrov has the new one?


Face it. It was inevitable

I think it might be photoshoped.

A Renault 1-2 with Petrov yielding to team leader Kubica on the last corner and straight according to TEAM ORDERS

That's got to be the best pre-race artwork all season. If only we could get it in wallpaper size ...

Renault ready to supply more teams with engines

I'm sure Williams would love to get the Renault.

I don't buy it, they were an inch from pulling out this year and they want to extend their customer base a year later ?

well i guess this is a good sign;)

Customers pay. It's just business.

It's technically a seperate group.
I think Flavio is still part owner (with Renault) of the Mechacrome bunch that builds the engine.
Don't think the current F1 Team has any part ownership of the engine plant.

Hi everyone!,

First of all welcome everybody; I've been reading this board for quite a while and now I want also take part instead of just watching it from a guest point of view. I hope I'll make discussions just a little more interesting.

PS. Pardon my English, I'm not a native speaker but I want to give my best


As for the topic - maybe I will repeat some statements but I'll just want to express how I'm impressed with the progress Renault are making so far this year. I'm not a fan but since they shown first signs of potential (2003) I was rooting for them to break Red domination. Last year's events were sad but I'm not missing Flavio at all and it seems that shock therapy was the best solution for the team.

Since it was clear that Robert will land in Renault I was pleased for the team because it was obvious that he's a perfect guy for them - fast, ambicious, always pushing for development. On the other hand, as a RK's supporter I wasn't so sure about the prospects of this season for Bob, sure it was the best possible option at the moment a lot better than Toyota or new teams and all this fuss in winter and arrival of Lopez and Boullier made me even less positive. But since winter testing I was more and more hopeful, denying all the critics that R30 is slower even than Sauber. Thankfully Eric and Gerard turned out to be determined professionals and they've done tremendous job so far.

So greenings once more and let's hope R30 in hands of Bob and Vitaly will be making more and more progress and return to glory will be possible again

Welcome aboard!

Welcome, MrMonaco!

Genii have helped reverse the team's fortunes, I guess. So why not keep the momentum going by expanding the engine operations?

There was talks of Renault remaining as an engine supplier even when the future of the race team was very dark... to me this thing is a logical progression, especially with the regulations now allowing the big manufacturers to supply three teams. (without FIA arse-licking for a special dispensation)

Operating an F1 team is an unpredictable mess compared to simply supply engines... the ins and outs are much simpler and will not have you pulling your hairs in comparison.

Check this out guys, funny stuff from Renault page:D:

http://my.renaultf1.com/profiles/blogs/rf1...2010-world-tour

http://tweetphoto.com/23195127

http://tweetphoto.com/23195439

Not sure but I think there are some serious changes for Turkey in monocoque. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't see there anything unusual

Isn't a little bit more V shape on the nose?

Yes, I think it's more V shaped.

Well in any case, off to Turkey they go!:)

Hm ... Does anyone know if this bulge above and to the right of Lada logo was there before ??

I guess that is what was shot on the Tweet feed photo. two little hills.

I notice DIAC logo is still on, big HP, Lada with big logo.

Genii is doing their job well.