makes you wonder if MW is sharing his setups as freely as he was earlier in the year, or if SV just made a few bad calls. (just as MW did earlier in the year)

@Redback: I share most of your analysis.



Looking back, this seems to be surprising but true. Does this mean that Mark is a faster racer or Seb the wiser one? Does Mark have now (this car, these setup, these circuits) a faster race pace or does it just try to push more during the race for whatever reason? Is Seb now unable to race as fast as Mark or does he just lower the risk and take the points, knowing that he can not overtake his teammate?

It is not clean-cut and the last two races have been very unusual for both drivers. Personally I do think that Seb struggled with the car, due to setups or form and would have liked to pull away a bit more from Hamilton and Kubica, at least in the first stints.


H2H

Yea about time Mark beats the young git often, I hope it happens more! Wouldn't be great if he won the remainder of the races? Or at least most of them. Go Mark! Well it's nice to think so...

okay then, they were jamming out to David Guetta and fell into a electronic house daze and couldn't stop themselves from sliding the car around to the music... Better?

Frankly, with all the "that is so rare, I've never seen it happen in F1" problems Sebastian is having with Lucious Liz, I don't have any problem believing the "excuses". Let's wait and see what happens when Sebastian can place his faith in his RBR ride...

Pre-season training was non existent for Webber when compared to this year I imagine.

As for q3 form, I can't help but notice that the cars are back to low fuel qualifying in Q3. I suspect Vettel was more suited to fuel on board and getting the most out of one lap compared to Mark.

I understand your point and if Seb were well clear of any potential challengers, I would agree he was driving to conserve. Trouble is, (as you've mentioned) in Spain and in Monaco there was always another driver close by (Hamilton and Kubica respectively).

In those circumstances, you'd be silly not to build yourself a buffer if you could. I don't think Seb is silly, so I can only conclude he was going as quickly as he could. If I recall correctly, he even said as much in the press conferences after each race and he also tacitly admitted Mark was probably quicker in the Malaysian PC.

Sebastian isn't driving to conserve for the most part. I think in Malaysia he did, more because he wasn't sure if another unexpected tribute to the bizzaro world of F1 mechanics was going to shine its light on him once more. That is why Horner told Mark to back off - he was driving quicker and looked like he was quite willing to take Sebastian out in order to get P1 back - in his usual manner, which could spell tears for both of them. But can anyone say Sebastian was driving conservatively in the first two races? I don't think so. He wasn't conservative in Spain - he was dangerously fast under the circumstances, a purple sector with a split break? Prior to that he claimed he had no balance to work with - believe what you will. In Monaco he claimed to have the same problem - and when he found grip, he did the fastest lap of the race, so that seemed about right.

Sebastian couldn't get any further away from Kubica (who was having his own troubles and also lagged at times) - as Vettel put it, the bee was chasing him and except when he was able to find grip, there was little he could do about it except to not make any mistakes - which was good enough since overtaking was poor and Kubica too was finding his balance a bit off at times.

But why would this bear on the driver's ability? Unless you mean his ability to drive a car out of balance, which no driver does well (recall Webber in the beginning of the year and a zillion other drivers with this complaint over the years - and Kubica here - and both Vettel and Webber in China). Sebastian's advantage is consistency and dealing with troubled waters like a champ when possible. Mark's advantage is no bizzaro reliability problems and finding a good balance for the car. Note that in qually we have a different story - Sebastian claimed he tried too hard and so took the blame as a driver for his position (he had balance) - Mark drove it great. So the moral of the tale is not that Sebastian would be perfect, but for his car, only that without the reliability and set up issues, he'd be much further along.

As long as Red Bull keep dominating, it's all up to Q3 and the start. After that, both drivers are able to drive away from their teammate, simply because then the race is effectively over for them. They know their positions, they know they can't overtake and that the team won't let them overtake through pitstops. So whoever has the pole, or has the lead in the first turn, will be the best driver of that weekend. Which is the same in a lot of teams, but especially for Red Bull as at the front, not that much can change.

No.

Actually, Mark's "advantage" (at least in Malaysia, Spain and Monaco) is setting his car up with proper race balance to begin with (it's a driver's job) and being able adapt his driving to extract the most from the car as its balance changes during the race.

Incidentally, I don't think it's a coincidence that Mark turned his engine down (again) on lap 70 in Monaco and Seb set the fastest race lap on lap 71...

With RBRs crappy pit strategy's and their frequent pit stop stuff ups, the driver in P2 NEEDS to put as much time between them and p3 as possible.

This is what messed up MWs Australian GP.
He was in P2 and then RBR blew the strat and the stop.
No matter what MW did wrong after that he would not have been in that position if him and SV had been able to put space between them and P3.

Monaco could have gone very bad for SV if RBR had muffed his stop as they have so many this year.

Lets not forget that the ONLY thing keeping other teams in touch with RBR this year is RBRs poor strat, reliability and that damn right front wheel man.

lol, you can't excuse a performance because of setup problems. that is the the drivers responsibility aswell.

are you saying seb can't setup his car?

Well that is what I said about Mark - I mentioned being able to find a good set up earlier on. But finding balance/grip during the race is also important and not always possible - lo and behold, not even for Mark, unless you only want to consider the last two races. He complained about it with his teammate in China at least. And he hasn't had any bizzaro reliability problems. Not taking that into account when it destroyed 3 of Vettel's races and then comparing them makes no sense whatsoever...



Is this the start of some conspiracy theory?

Gee I hope not, keep the setups and the glory all to yourself Mark

...Except that there's no real evidence of Seb driving away from Mark in those circumstances.

Malaysia, Spain and Monaco have already been discussed, but even in Australia there was no evidence of that occurring.

After Mark cleared Massa on lap 3, he was catching Seb at an average of almost .4 sec per lap until they both pitted.

After the pitstop Mark was in traffic, but once he cleared that, he was catching Seb at an average of more than .7 sec per lap until Seb's unfortunate retirement.

The only race this year in which the two drivers have run line astern and Vettel has been quicker has been China. Mark got his setup badly wrong there and paid the price.

That was his fault (as was the Q3 mistake in Bahrain) but it's the driver's responsibility to do the setup and if it's wrong, they can only blame themselves.

This is why the "I didn't have balance/grip" excuse doesn't cut it when your team mate doesn't have the same issues.

Webber for World Champion...

Red Bull appear miles ahead of everyone else........ Newey is the man and he has taken this medium-sized team, and gone past Ferrari and Mclaren

I think the momemtum is now with Webber, and if Vettel can't hit back in the next 2 races.... he'll have a run at the championship

Finding balance/grip during the race is what setup should be about. A good driver will understand how the car reacts to changes in weight, tire wear, ride height and balance and will setup the car accordingly such that he can deal with those changes during the course of the race. Set up your car for just one lap and you could find yourself fast over a couple of laps, and slow over the rest.

I'm not suggesting Seb is a one-lap wonder, but perhaps he's setting his car up that way?

Why would the timing of a fastest lap attempt be a conspiracy? It's simple, - Mark turns his engine down, Seb decides it's a good time to push for fastest lap. If I were Seb, I'd do the same thing.

Of course I wouldn't be delusional enough to think that the guy who out-qualified me by .4 sec and was the same amount faster during the race, couldn't just turn the wick back up and go quicker again, if he so chose...

It had nothing to do with confidence. In 2009 I would have gambled my mortgage on Webber getting the better of Vettel over a full season. Even after Webber broke his leg, I gave him until mid-season to get up to speed, when I believed the Webber of old would start to beat Vettel on a regular basis. This did not happen and I was humbly forced to modify my views on Vettel. Believe me I had my fair share of excuses at the beginning defending Webber(his broken leg taken longer to recover), but after a while you have to accept the facts of the moment and concede Vettel was the faster driver.

Then came 2010 and Vettel again looked faster and I was consigned to accept Vettel was the man. But Mark has turned it around. In the last 2 races, Webber has given Vettel an absolute beating. What make these beatings even more impressive, is that Webber has left Vettel for dead, when Vettel was directly behind Webber. The gaps have been huge. Barcelona Vettel could not even keep up with Hamilton, while Webber was cruising at the front with a 15+ second lead. In Monaco Webber would have been by a clear 30+ seconds if not for the safety car and he was not even pushing 100%. How Vettel responds will tell you if he is the real deal or not.

Indeed this is the point. I do think that he is a guy which has been become pretty fast pretty racewise and he does clearly drive with his head focused on the WDC. But and this is a big but in Spain and in Monaco he could not create easily a sensible a safety buffer before the first pitstop. I do also think that he went as quickly as he considered it safe, but could not open up a gap in Spain or in Monaco. I saw little of danger of cruising after the pitstop, considering that both tracks make overtaking pretty much impossible but not before it.

H2H

But it does cut it when your teammate has the same problem? Then driver respnsibility disappears? Haha good one. The cars are clearly not the same but for set up - unless Mark has complained of power loss, brake lock up and a split disc. Or did ozboy repair those things on his rbr while driving?

If both drivers have the same balance/grip problem it could be (a) they both have it wrong, or (b) there's an inherent design issue with the car or its components.

In those circumstances, the driver with the "least poor" setup, or the greater ability to adapt will perform better.

By the way, the discussion has been about the performance of the two drivers in the races when they're unimpeded by extraneous influences.

If you want to talk about reliability issues with the RB6, there's always the RedBull thread. I'm not sure that your "did ozboy repair those things on his rbr while driving?" comment will seem any more intelligent in that thread either though...

Agreed.

I see. So when Kubica kept falling behind Sebastian then catching up was he experiencing some kind of Schitzophrenic adaptation in your opinion?



When was this exactly and how do you know?

Seriously, I prefer to discuss these matters with people who know something about motor racing or who can at least string together a coherent, intelligent argument.

Feel free to return when you qualify.

Sometimes I think the forums could use pre-qualifying... *cough*

I think it's time to push out the same line that we Webber fans have had to listen to so many times in the past: The scoreboard doesn't lie. So far this year, it says Mark's ahead (albeit by the slimmest of margins - 2 wins to 1).

Another line we've had to listen to so many times: bad reliability or problems in pitstops? Those are just excuses.

Not to mention all the reliability problems are obviously Vettels fault

But seriously, i think they are both doing great and i'm looking forward to a close battle. both have had reliability or setup issues or whatever getting in their way but hopefully these last two races are more of an indication of whats to come... minus brake issues for Vettel of course

My favorite type of answer.

To the poster speaking about qually, Vettel pulling it together for third at the last moment in Monaco is the type of champ spirit I was talking about.

Your so pro Seb, that the more you make things up, the more you actually damage Seb IMO.

Firstly Webber is very good at handling bad cars - he's had a huge amount of experience at it. Fast forward to Monaco this year, and Webber said that he had handling difficulties in the first stint. IMO because your focused on Seb, you missed that both drivers had handling difficulties in Monaco. When the team told Seb to use full engine performance and develop a gap for the coming pitstop, Webber was surprised that he was able to keep up with Seb on his lower engine stress parameter. That situation is a basis for arguing that Webber is better than Vettel at keeping a troublesome package going.

There's been much evidence that since the Mk2 RB5, Webber has had better heavy car performance. Hence his ability to overtake Seb last year with a much longer run on a heavily fueled middle stint, something no other driver could come close to that day. Many would view that as an ability to manage a poor handling car.

Seb is a brilliant qualifier though (one could argue that Vettel is a better light car driver - for that is when the car seems to come to him). Since overtaking is no longer what F1 is about, being a better qualifier is what F1 is all about now - qualifying is a superior strength now. In previous years, when teams were closely matched, Webber's wins would not have had a much slower team mate immediately behind - but its now possible, because its so difficult to overtake, and fuel strategy based overtaking has been almost removed from effectitve race strategies. So I still think that Seb has an advantage over Web.

However we don't know how much the team is sacrificing race pace for qualifying pace. We do know that they clearly are - the numbers prove it. The more the two drivers do it, the worse will be their race speed. Its worthwhile at the moment, because the cars are good at race pace in clear air. And the driver who qualifies best has a huge advantage over the other driver. But should the other teams catch up, then the game will change IMO. If that happens, the leading car will loose its lead during the first pitstop - and the RBR behind will end up 5th. And that way, they'll loose the championship. Right now though, they can afford to sacrifice race pace for qualifying ... which IMO has suited Seb, but perhaps Web is also now doing it.

People talk of Webber's setups - but perhaps it's Webber who is adapting Seb's pole goal?

Things might return to normal though ... in fact Webber's change in Monaco was very slow, but it did not matter.

Why do you make a comment like this - without explanation - then go on glorifying Mark. You don't have to throw a stone at something positive said about Sebastian to consider Mark's positives. I didn't make anything up, I repeated Sebastian. If that damages him for you, then that is something you would have to deal with - or not. I thought I made it clear that Sebastian will always be one of my favored drivers in F1 - that is not just when he is compared to Mark, but to any other driver that I don't favor. That is just how it is - so yea, I'm pro Seb, the skill I appreciate most he has in spades - and he has good driving tactics. I see nothing wrong with that.

Qualifying 3rd in a Red Bull is no great feat plus he was 4 tenths slower than Webber which is a bit of a chasm in F1 terms

This...

Pot, Kettle, Black.

Has Mark ever taken Seb out? No, - it's just something you've made up to "throw a stone at something positive".

I could go on and quote a plethora of other examples, but it's unnecessary...

How about this....Mark Webber is healthy this year, had plenty of pre-season testing, and has a car that suits him more this year, than last. He is also having less issues in Q3 this year with a light car. My feeling was always that apart from some mistakes Mark made last year in Q3, he never got back up to speed with qualifying and lost some of his feel in the car due to his leg injury. I think some people just assumed that he would be back to 100% after a few races last year. I think that if I got hit head on by a truck and shattered my leg and broke my shoulder I would take a year to be back to 100% as well.

Both Mark and Seb are driving at a high level with a very fast car beneath them. I would be thrilled to see Mark win the WDC this year, but it is very early in the year and I do not expect Seb to let Mark keep driving away from him. Turkey will be a great race and I expect the Red Bull boys to be at the front again. Which one?? I am not sure..but I do know that anyone slagging off Webber, while hailing Vettel as the next coming should perhaps cool some of those assessments. Both are talented drivers who deserve to be in F1, but neither has won a WDC yet......

Good on you for being a Seb fan. Join the rest of Germany. I wasn't being pro Webber - I was pointing out issues. You'll note that due to Seb's qualifying speed, I favor him for this season, unless other teams catch up to RBR. If other teams catch up, then the RBR drivers qualifying setups will have to be more race orientated, because otherwise the team will loose. IMO

Unfortunately if you constantly think defensively about your favourite driver, it does that driver no favours. My advise - for the little its worth - is to be critical of Seb instead of always thinking defensively about him. Then you'll be realistic. And in 7 years time, you'll be able to list out all the things that Seb improved upon.

Don't worry, he's just getting desperate because Marky boy has spanked Seb in the last 2 races...


As for Mark, I think he is obviously very comfortable in the car atm - but perhaps he has also found the way to unlock the tyres for qualy?

I seem to remember people saying on here that the move to narrower front tyres should help Mark, because it should provide him with a more similar feel to the old grooved fronts compared to the wider slicks last year.

He also seems to have a more deliberate way in in building up for Q3 the last few races.

Except that by getting third, he got the sticky right side of the track and came second in the GP!!

Also, he had stuffed up the previous fast lap. I think you got 4 laps this year on one set of tyres - first to join the track, second was an OK lap but the third and fourth are the ones where you have the chance. Sometimes on the fourth the tyres run out of grip - I presume if you've gone too hard on lap 2. Seb mucked up his lap 3. He couldn't afford to push the car 100% on his final lap, so Seb backed off and brought it home without errors. It was a very good and considered run. Webber's was something else, only allowed because he'd put in a great lap already. IMO!

Just watch the film - that wasn't a negative merely to toss a stone, it was a fact in order to discuss why it is best for the teammates not to duke it out too greatly with one another at the race start. And by usual manner I wasn't referring to he and his teammate, but up to that point, that hadn't been a factor and he'd been tussling with drivers from other teams. Understandably he'd put up a bigger fight with them, but he seemed to forget for a moment it was the other RBR in Malaysia in his zeal to regain P1 - sure Sebastian stole it, but you don't want them both out in a battle (i.e., Hamilton/Alonso Brazil 2007). If you disagree, explain to me why Horner said anything at all? Sebastian was in front, so it wasn't him he was talking to although he said "guys". If Sebastian had pulled that stuff either in Spain or Monaco and messed up Mark's race or had to be called off, fans would be slaying him over the coals right now. But he does it right and then is chided for not neck and necking it with Mark to the death. Anyway, that is what that comment was all about.



I'm not German - although it has beautiful country. Anyhow, I'll be a Sebastian fan from home, but thanks!



Geez, well the day I become a glass half empty person, I'll go live in a hut on a mule farm and stop talking to people. . For me, glass is always half full - always. Sebastian needs no defending for the many reasons I have provided, so I am not sure what you mean. I won't criticize unless he pulls something I feel lacks good driving ethics - like in China (not that I blame him too much, it was Hamilton after all with his usual instigating tactics, imo). Apart from that, no point. However, if it makes you feel better to criticize your favored driver(s), I think that is great for you - and if it helps you recognize their improvement, all the better. I don't need to do that.

Sums up why it's so hard to take anything you say seriously. If you want to discuss the merits of performance - great. Discuss the comments made very early last year about the respective drivers styles and the effects that it had on lap times...compare those statements from last year, with the change in weight distribution of the RB6 compared to the RB5. Discuss the propensity of 1 driver throughout their career to perform better in a car with a tendency to under steer - realise that a smaller front tyre this year may be some sort of contributor to a change in driving style. Understand that a driver will modify his driving style progressively as a season goes on to match a car characteristic and that one who has spent most of it preferring that cars characteristic is probably going to adapt sooner.

Some of us just want to look at why these guys have vary performance levels and why those situations occur. Listening to people whinge about who they do and don't like and fabricating reasons to be petty isn't any great source of entertainment. Drivers who have struggled for a significant amount of time through their lives to reach the pinnacle of Motorsport - who risk their lives every time they get in a car - deserve a little more respect than they receive.............................. from someone who has successfully managed to plug a box into a wall socket.

Nobody's thrashing anyone. Red Bull are having a great season - both drivers are going to do well - the rest is childishness.

If you want interesting discussion - talk about the changes that were made overnight in Malaysia and why.....then you'll have a bit of an idea about how the rest of the season might progress - and why there could be a trend emerging - and that others in the paddock see that trend in relation to the regulations and the reemergence of a qualifying specialist - at a time when qualifying is king.

Good times and great challenges ahead - for both.

And yet you go on talking...which in turn makes you a little hard to take seriously...



Why would I discuss anything based on criteria you set forth? Who the heck are you?



Why would I discuss any of that? This is the Vettel v. Webber thread; not RBR, not trends in F1, if you want to weave in those ideas, be my guest, but don't ask me to follow your lead. The conversation sounds down right boring.



Well at least we agree on that.

I'll post some of the rules here, just as a reminder. I believe that general (not about a thread's point) personal comments are outside of the rules.

I think that its important that since we have a Driver v Driver thread, it needs to have some specific race based content, otherwise it would become the banned type of Driver V Driver thread.

I just rewatched the Monaco GP. I can't believe the way Mark beat Vettel. He was clearly over a half second faster than his teammate. I'm very impressed by him

This Seb/Web battle is so close right now:

Wins: Web 2, Seb 1
Poles: Web 3, Seb 3
Points: Web 78, Seb 78

But I believe it can get even closer if the two following conditions are met:

1. Mark maintains the consistency and the mental strength to put away his pressure demons
2. Seb finds another gear he can kick up into to challenge his team mate for outright pace

I would love to see both conditions answered with a YES, but my prediction, based purely on historical observation, will be (1) NO, (2) YES.

Mark is driving superbly now because coming out of China he had nothing to lose, the underdog if you will. Last year, following his amazing run of multiple podiums which culminated in that breakout dominating win, I think Mark started suffering from the pressure of having to deal with being a serious WDC contender, and where Seb seemed to thrive under those conditions Mark seemed to falter.

It will be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case again, or whether the roles will reverse, where Mark zeroes in on the WDC and Seb withers under the expectation to deliver the team's first championship, or whether both will maximise their performances right until the end.

The season is long and we are not even 1/3 through it yet, but surely this year will present the best chance either driver will have to become champion.

RB finds something wrong with Seb's chassis. Could this explain the massive discrepancy between the pace of the two?

They're on the same amount of points, going to be tough to get much closer

I highly doubt it, couldn't have been too much wrong considering he set the fastest lap time for the race. Webber flogged him plain and simple. Both cars were even in Spain yet Mark beat him convincingly there as well. Add to that RBR said it was a minor issue with the chassis as well, so no I don't think it has much to do with why Seb has been so much slower than Mark at Monaco.

"In Barcelona and Monaco, Mark was simply stronger, he had more confidence and felt more comfortable in the car. In contrast, Sebastian complained several times about the balance of the car," added Horner
-------

I guess Horner's just a fan boy too, restating that balance nonsense and not blaming it on Vettel... THey should make him continue to use that lucious liz chasis in pennance.

Indeed. Seb had all the gremlins so far and still leads with the same points as Webber the WDC.

A defect of the chassis would go a very long way to explain the performance gap, which was especially clear in the slower corners. In Barcelona Seb and Mark were pretty even in S1 and S2, but Seb lost a lot in S3. In Monaco with all the slow turns the gap was much larger, which would be neatly explained by balance problems due to a defective chassis. Schumacher also had a very considerable performance drop in China due to a broken chassis - if Seb drove in both races with it (it should not have returned to England after Barcelona) his performance has to be viewed in a far different light.

The next races could give us some answers.


H2H

Maybe they found the solution...

5. Faulty chassis.



H2H

This is a fascinating thread.
I have read every word of every post to get a handle & I just get the feeling that the debate is going around in circles.
I may give the impression of getting off thread a bit, but stick with me for my final conclusion.
I think there needs to be general recognition that Webber & Vettel are both very good on their day – and this means a lot of things – and one of them is likely to be the 2010 World Champion.
Red Bull is fortunate to have the pairing.
A seasoned campaigner & a young Turk & I draw the analogy with Fangio and Moss in their fabulous Mercedes Benz W196's in 54-55.
I’m trying to convince myself that I don’t care which one wins the WC, although I know in my heart of hearts I would like Webber to grab the crown.
Why?
It’s got nothing to do with the fact that I am Australian & I’ll proffer three reasons.
Firstly, his effort last year in overcoming serious injuries & holding onto his seat put him, in my book, in very special company.
I have always been a great admirer of Moss & his achievement in winning the 1960 US Grand Prix a few months after breaking his back & both legs at Spa was extraordinary.
Then, at Monaco at the commencement of the following season, he drove a privately-entered & obsolete car to one of the greatest victories in the history of Formula One, a crushing put-down of the entire Scuderia Ferrari.
His final accident at Goodwood in ’61 robbed the sport of a supremely gifted driver & an opportunity for those of us who were around at the time, to see him take on the coming men, Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart & John Surtees, all of whom would climb the heights.
And Niki Lauda?
To return to racing after being nearly burned alive in ’76 in a Ferrari at the Ring & be given the last rites & go on to win another two World Championships is the stuff of legend.
How the hell did they do it?
My second reason requires me to throw a few other names into the ring, i.e., Brabham, McLaren, Gurney, Hulme, Rindt, Jones, Rosberg, Mansell & Damon Hill.
These were drivers who came from very ordinary backgrounds.
No family fortunes, no wealthy patrons.
All these drivers possessed enormous talent & self belief & a grim determination to get to the top no matter what obstacles were placed in their paths.
Brabham worked for Cooper for nothing when he first went to Europe, Jones sold second-hand cars out of his London flat & Mansell was supported by his wife while he chased his dream.
Damon's Hill's family was financially shattered by the death of his father in a plane crash.
Webber has been there; he knows what it’s like to sleep ten to a room and eat cheap pizza.
Now, my third reason.
Webber is a decent bloke.
Of the current top crop - apart from Webber - I would only say only Button had a hard row to the top & I’d also consider him a decent bloke along with Alonso & Vettel, with more on the latter in a moment.
Button copped a terrible caning from the Press when he got the drive with Williams & the barren years with Honda must have been heartbreaking; he deserved everything that came his way last season & I like the way he talks & conducts himself.
Alonso is very smart – noticed how deep his English vocabulary is? – and he strikes me as principled & transparent.
There are a few names that haven’t got on to my list.
Prost, Senna, Piquet, Hunt, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Irvine, Schumacher & Hamilton either seemed to slide into F1 seats without too much privation, or quite frankly, talented as they were, they failed to impress me as individuals.
Some colourless, some bullies, some clownish.
I don’t buy this ludicrous rubbish that Senna was a God; he was an intimidating egomaniac.
Spooling back to the present, Hamilton, the precocious child prodigy, is an interesting case in point.
Supremely talented & aggressive, but grossly full of himself & if I had to choose between he and Webber as a dinner companion, the brat wouldn’t get past the head waiter.
OK, so what’s my point?
Webber’s pedigree is far broader, far deeper & infinitely more profound than Vettel’s.
He has Moss & Lauda and all the other great F1 fighters and achievers in his DNA.
His climb to the top – and I put him right up there with the very best – has been seared with penury & severe disappointment & hurt & he's digging into a reservoir of gritty experiences of which Vettel knows nothing.
Webber has travelled the hard yards.
He worked his guts out last year to get back into race trim, because like Moss, he knew he was bloody good and that his time would come.
The moment has arrived.
If his drive in Spain was exemplary, the achievement at Monaco, the severest of tests, was simply beyond measure.
This was a driver who knew he was better than his rivals.
There’s an old saying that you create your own luck, and this is where Webber is now.
Vettel?
I like him.
I’m not suggesting for an instant that he needs to stare oblivion in the face, or overcome severe injury to earn his place in the firmament because I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
The guy is sensationally talented & clearly intelligent with a sunny personality &, yes, he could join Webber & I for lunch any time & I bet the conversation [I’d just be listening] would be interesting & amusing
Vettel’s time will come, but not just yet.
So, I don’t give a fig about these endless postulations about hundredths of a second margins and cleverer set-ups & tyre choices & better pit calls & race tactics that infuse most of the posts thus far, I look for something else beyond the obvious requisite talent.
Webber is owed.

That was a great read and I feel ya. What I truly believe though is that everybody's got a story, no matter how young, even if we don't hear them. That isn't as compelling to me as Webbers past reliability issues - same for Vettel and several others. Stopped by a subperforming car is the worst, imo.

this isnt about what driver ud most like to go out on lunch/dinner with.its the driver that puts down stellar performances race after race after race that deserves to win the title..Whilst webber's performance at monaco was nothing short of spectacular,he's still a long way from demonstrating to us that he can do that consistently over the season..infact this has been his achilles heels over the last few years of his career..pulling off the occasional excellent outing with lots of average/below average weekends in b/w..crumbling under the pressure when he needed to come out on top.

and its not fair to compare Lauda and Moss's injuries to what happened with webber...as handicapping as his broken leg may have been,theres a world of difference in the magnitudes of the physical and more importantly psychological injuries sustained by that duo and webber.