Performance wise i'd expect Mark to have the edge at Montreal. Its a track he has much more experience at, and also has those final sector chicanes that have tripped up Vettel before as well.

i just posted this on the other thread as well..

Webber doesnt slow down in laps 37 and 38 meaning he didnt comply with RB's ''rev down'' instructions..it was just Vettel going a whole 0.5 sec quicker than anything he'd done in the previous 10 laps showing he was using the richer mixture/rev up mode.

Good on you,Webber.

Problem being the next 11 races after that I dont see any of them really suiting Mark except Interlagos. I do see a LOT of tracks where Seb has previously gone well: Monza, Silverstone, Singapore, Suzuka, Abu Dhabi.

The bigger issue, for both of them, is the McLaren's development pace. This is why they need to put the nonsense of the last race behind them, and they need to do this very soon.

Mark will be good at Silverstone and Suzuka.

Silverstone last year he was baulked on what may or may not have been a lap good good enough for pole but the point is he was very competitive.

Suzuka he's always been great at but stuffed himself last year with the practice crash and ensuring dramas.

Spa should good good for him too.

He was awful at all three of those tracks last year, relatively.

Historically Webber has done well at Silverstone.

Last year at Spa he got a drive through because his mechanic released him early in the pits. I recall him having good drivers there before.

I can't remember him having a standout drive at Suzuka though.

Not quite. I thought he looked set to win Silverstone until Kimi fell asleep but was poor at spa and suzuka yes.

the redbull was quite slow for both of them at spa i thought? plus the drive through for webber didn't help and i thought his laptimes were quite good at suzuka?(could be wrong here... way to long ago and no time to look it up) but due to the amount of pitstops for tyres, headrest and eventually different nose cones which made it one big test session he was never going to go anywhere in the race

Have a look at this article
Horner: Webber asked Vettel to back off
And don't tell me Horner is lying, because this info is against Mark's honour as a racer IMHO, and he would certainly be complaining if this wasn't the truth. He is no chicken.
So this puts a new perspective to this episode in my opinion.
I have always seen Mark as a great sportsman (see my posting history), but after reading this article I have to admit I am a bit disappointed with his behaviour.
For me, it's still a racing incident (Matteschitz: Shit happens) and I can't understand the lynch mob, the drama queens and haters with their simple-minded black and white views.
I want to see racing, and Seb raced, made a ballsy but risky move at 300 km/h and lost it, unfortunately. So what? Life goes on. Never seen a lynch mob like in here...

Christian Horner couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it.

Have you not noticed that every time Christians mouth moves, Helmut has his entire arm up Christians arse?

And that's why I said,

Got it now?

No - I didn't....

The reason is that I spoke to a friend of Marks last night - and it sounds like the plan is that he will say nothing over the next week and a half, no matter what is said.
Given the number of people who have opened their mouth only to change feet, or have shown themselves to be nothing more than shallow and callous - I think his saying nothing is a good idea.

I don't think it has anything to do with his honour - he's about as straight as they come. If feeble minded people want to change their minds based on statements induced by fear from a dictator, that's up to them. We've seen a week of this rubbish.

The sky isn't falling, and no matter how much chicken little and the Sith lord (no offence Sith!) run around blabbing to all and sundry in an attempt to win back credibility, it's just not going to happen. Crying Wolf didn't work on Monday - I doubt it's going to work on Thursday. We're on version 27 of Sunday afternoon's events - nobody cares what Marko and Horner have to say anymore.

...as Amercians say - nobody wins by swinging at pitches in the dirt.

I think Marks greatest concern right now is that the dogs don't chew their Frisbee.

Did he ask them to tell Vettel to back off. Or ask them if Vettel should be slowing on a leaner mixture as well. Not the same thing.

He hasn't had a chance to respond yet. Not suggesting it didn't happen, just that it may not be as straightforward as it sounds.

Not sure it really matters either way does it? I think what's important is what occurs when the shoe is on the other foot - is it consistent? We'll probably never know.

I'm not sure why Horner would bring it up at all at this stage though now. It just doesn't make sense why he'd provide a fairly solitary piece of information, 3+ days after the incident.

If Mark said to Christian "Tell Vettel to slow down" that is bad.

However, if Red Bull had a pre-determined team order that they would hold stations at a certain amount of laps to go, then telling Vettel to slow down is good (remember Christian told Vettel the same thing at Turkey last year).

If Christian said to Mark "Vettel is faster than you, let him past" and Mark said "no", that is bad.

If Webber wanted to know "Have you told Vettel to slow down as well?", that is good.

If Mark said "I will let Vettel through" and then didn't exactly make life easy for him, that is bad.

At the end of the day we are going to play 24 rounds of 'he said/she said'...but until the radio transcripts are released we'll never have any idea what happened.

I think it's fairly clear to all involved that Red Bull attempted to implement team orders in a fairly ham-fisted and amateurish way which has now come back to bite them on the arse.

It's quite possible that Christian's statements may be the 'truth', but they sure as hell aren't the 'whole truth', if you get my meaning.

That's pretty much it. Sounds like they're trying to make themselves as not so bad by saying "You may think we did this, but he said this first!"

Fact is, without radio transcripts, it's just more heresay and blame apportioning. He should either put the facts out there, or stop bringing out his questionable statements. Seems they're trying to bring Webber down with them when really it could be as simple as him asking "Are we not in the stage of the race we're not supposed to race each other?" Simple enough, and I'd want to know what was going on as well if he started to fill my mirrors that close to the end.

I dare say Mark had Fuji 07 on his mind if he asked for Vettel to back off a bit... .

So what, they made it up? Webber didn't actually say it? It all jives - Webber turned into a control freak after his two wins and began acting like he was super entitled. That sounds harsher than I likely mean it, because I don't mean it in some all encompassing fashion, but just in terms of his position with the team at race time. People bring up the fact that Sebastian's ever unreliable car got it's parts on first - yeah, maybe becuase it is so damn unreliable. Or maybe because he tested the F-Duct and they wanted that car to have all the new parts on it. And maybe they were busy fixing Mark's blown engine. Who knows - but the suggestion of favortism runs wild instead. When in truth, it was Mark who was behaving the lord of the manner. That is what got Sebastian rolling his eys and smiliing that plastic way he did in the PC after Qually. Maybe that is why in the culmination of everything he didn't think twice before making the nutzo gesture about Mark (although it would have also confirmed any belief he may have held that Mark would treat him just like he did everyone else in defense one day).

Nobody's perfect, but I think Mark needs (or needed) to recognize, and hopefully he has. Vettel is a true competitor and not some brat to be swatted aside when reliability issues allow for it... For Mark it has been a ride in the sunshine - for Sebastian it has been nothing but problems.

Webber did nothing wrong, your golden boy messed up

You/they can't have their cake and eat it too.

As I see it, Mark has to run his engine hard earlier, while Seb saves his engine at this early point. Mark makes enough of a gap over his teammate to allow him to save fuel for 20 odd laps however the team pit Vettel first, so Mark now has Vettel 4 seconds closer to him that he may have originally expected. After running comfortably together for 20 or so laps, Mark turns his engine down to save fuel, we're in the last third of the race.

In the past, the Red Bulls have called off the fight in the closing laps. When Mark turns his engine down, he asks if this will be the same and asks for space, at this point while Mark has been saving fuel the gap from Hamilton has changed from 1.1 seconds to...1.1 seconds. The team then says they can't/won't get Vettel to back off. To me, that says they're still racing, and it sounds like Mark took it that way as well.

You can't have a go at Mark for racing and then have a go at him for asking them to not race. Once the team implied that they're still racing then it's on, Mark defended totally fairly, and Seb turned into him and that's ultimately all there is to it.

That's not only a leap, it's a ridiculous leap, to rationalize Vettel's mistake into Webber's fault. While Webber has brought the team nearly ALL of it's points.

All F1 drivers are control freaks - it's part of the skill set. We have an experienced driver who has just taken three poles and two GP's in a row off his highly touted team mate. A team mate (and team for that matter) that considered Webber a journeyman. Good at setting qualy and setting cars up for qualy. Vettel probably thought he'd wipe the floor with him. Hell the whole team probably thought that. Suddenly, Vettel is faced with a hard nosed professional and Vettel seems cracking to me.

Webber is about to complete a hat trick (three poles, most laps lead, three wins) - something that hasn't been repeated for a decade or so - and you write as if he should be happy RBR allows him a car and a garage to keep it in. When Vettel's desperate move puts an end to it. Frankly, the shoe's on the other foot. Vettel needs to show he can control his temper and impatience. He needs to show he can stroke a car home on good pace. He needs to learn how to win a GP as slowly as possible. Otherwise he's just going to be another Kimi. Brilliant but unpolished.

So Mark requests them to get Seb to back off, team declines no matter what the reason that's okay, Seb tries a pass on Mark, Mark resists pass as any racer would and the rest is history. Sebs backers preferred outcome is as before but Seb attempts to pass and Mark moves over to let him past so Seb can smile and say what a great job the team did to allow him the win and thank you Mark for being a loyal number two I will buy you a beer. All Seb's fans will be happy and the rest will comment how Mark is too old over the hill got no B's and always was crap. The German/Austrian alliance will be happy, Mark will return home at the end of the year to be told he is a loser.

No it is not bad. It takes two to make a swap, but only one to make a pass.

If it was to be a swap of positions, then the overtaker selects a decent place to do it, and does the job properly, and the (formerly) lead man allows him through - he may, but doesn't have to (and I would not expect him to) hand it to the overtaker on a plate. Especially since he could see the overtaker entering the corner off the line and far too fast, and the opportunity to retain the lead, at least for a while longer if not to the finish. This was not the pass of an agreed swap. For whatever reason. In any event the onus is on the overtaker to do the job. He didn't.

If it was a pass, it was poorly set up, poorly executed, and the price paid by the overtaker was fair. Especially given the damage he inflicted ON HIS TEAMMATE for crying out loud.

I agree with your assessment about CH statements - by Canada we should have a pressure cooker ready to pop the safety!!

Mark can take comfort in the fact that Vettel doesn't have the skill or mental capacity to be a #1 driver - the championship is mark's for the taking with or without the vettel family on his side.

I think its going to be tough for either driver to beat Mclaren at Montreal. However Mark is extremely good at Montreal (just look at his performances in 07 and 08 in Qualifying). Best case scenario may be Mark beating Jenson into 2nd place, I think Hamilton will be hard to beat.

that's what I thought too. seems that RB change their policy when their boy isn't the one in the best position. Not always though, but enough for it to be unfair.

yaeh that's interesting. seems red bull made a mistake in thinking vettel could assume number 1 driver so easily. but if that's what they really wanted why would they have kept webber on? hardly someone who's going to take being told he's a number 2 quietly and make it easy for them to do that. Seb doesn't have the respect or experience to be a number 1 yet, at least in the current setup. I'm sure he will though eventually. webber hardly seems intimidated does he.

Well that was a quote from the days when google translated Vettel as saying he'd made a mistake. When I found out the German actually read "I made no mistake" I had to stop and re-evaluate becuase there was no reason for him to say that considering the turn in had been his fault. I will be patient for more answers, but I believe that what happened was that Vettel misjudged Mark. He believed he was going to allow him to clear, seeing has his car was 8/10ths clear, and didn't expect Mark would keep holding the line. He underestimated Mark I think. If so, I'm thinking he won't do it again. Hami hasn't forgotten since he got whacked in AUS. Massa hasn't since Webber nearly ended his race with his dash be damned shunting and Raikkonen never had any faith, which is why that near chop never developed, but still made for review footage. Alonso I am sure hasn't forgotten ducking out of the fun shunt in SUZ either. Webber is a disaster around others, that is fact as far as I am concerned. That doesn't mean he can't win a WDC - but that will be jeopardized if he is not in P1 or P2 behind his teammate, because he simply cannot restrain himself when he is around others.

Vettel said that he stopped attempting a pass early on in Barcelona because it was too dangerous in the wet where his teammate was. So you see, at least one of them is attempting to be a team player...

looks like vettel is following in his steps then.

I hope not, I would not be able to follow. But to me, the most important thing is that both drivers need to be team players - that includes Mark. His mindset isn't right...

You obviously have selective memory as Mark was asked at an earlier round why he did not pit early to jump Seb and his answer was team policy is leader gets priority which begs the question why did team player Seb pit first in Turkey which Martin Brundle pointed out at the time. Also in the same race Mark was faster but just cruised around behind Seb ststing that it would have put them both in jeopardy if he had of tried to execute a pass. At the time I wondered whether the same would happen in reverse we know have the answer don't we

vettel has taken webber out twice now, both at times he was looking at a possible victory.

Pretty sure you have it the wrong way around there champ

He did it for the team

mindset? who do you think looks more composed of the two?

After being taken out of a race by a crash? Well you tell me. Webber gestured with a hand up and was ranting and cursing on the tv press, damning every young driver from here to kingdom come. Vettel was making gestures to indicate his teammate was nutzola, but spoke philosophically to the press. Perhaps it is not a good time to gauge composure just after a driver's race has ended?

But the mindset I spoke of is in-race. Play for the team is the best way to put it - because shoehorning your teammate over the white line is none too sporting and makes the team unhappy.



Did you see Mark's pass attempt on Hamilton in AUS? Do you really not understand why the team is concerned with Mark's potential confrontations with his teammate? His mindset - his judgment - it isn't right. And "teammate" as we saw in Turkey, doesn't appear to make any difference with him...

When that happen?

Who are we talking about here, when, and where?

Whoever, whereever, whenever, it wasnt Webber/Vettel Turkey 2010.

Sunday in Turkey.

Yep, clearly OVER the white line there.

Not to mention it was Vettel's choice to take the inside line (which Webber had already made little room for).

you forget...
MW DIDNT force SV on the white line.
He was already hard left when SV decided to take the left side.
He did not wait till SV was beside him and them move over.

Just as a comparison in the fight between JB and LH shortly after they forced each other OFF THE TRACK on several corners.
But neither of them TURNED INTO the other when this was happening.

I did not remember that video, which seems early in the incident ...?

What i remembered was the head-on video, which IIRC shows Seb with plenty of track, even if it is not the best quality piece of track heading into that corner

I'm not in the mood to make a picture display tonight. I just watched it. Vet started out away from the line. As Mark shoehorned his way over, Vettel had no choice but to head left, his tyre is over the line - it may be an expression distinction based on where we live, but here that means that his tire moved off the asphalt and onto the white line. As you can see from the picture, Mark has him boxed in, so he had no choice but to edge over the line. My point was that Mark shouldn't have shunted him over like that at all. He was being a headcase because he didn't want to give up P1 - even when it was clear he'd lost it a few moments later, he still did not back off. The team wasn't happy about that, hence the statement about giving more room.

Tend to agree. It's not misinformation and it's not information. It's only purpose would seem to perpetuate further diatribe - which seems pretty silly to me - so I am puzzled to understand why he came out with it at all.

Tells a story of the change in Vettel's mindset if you watch the two take outs in succession. In Fuji Vettel was in floods of tears, he feared he may have ruined his own career. Fast forward a couple of years and he's throwing looney signs at Webber. Both were as much his fault IMO.

On ≠ over and it was barely on the line at that. ie. not even half way on the line. (this is based on the horizontal axis not the vertical axis; the car is moving left to right not up and down)
Vettel threw a dummy right then Webber moved fractionally left as Vettel moved alongside him (is that what you would call a squeeze?)
Vettel chose the left even though it had minimal room and ended up touching the white line.
After Webber saw Vettel had taken the inside line he started moving fractionally right.
Then Vettel chose to cut across him before the pass was complete.
I can't believe people are saying this is Webber's fault, i just don't even.

That picture shows one damning fact that ruins the squeezing over the line theory:

There is more room on Vettel's right hand side than there is on his left.

If Vettel is over or near the line then it is because he chose to drive there.

~75% of forum posters, all of the ex-drivers and seemingly all of the media agree that Vettel was at fault, why are we still discussing this? How is there any doubt left?

Because thou glorious Vettel in all his might could not possibly put a foot wrong.

Seriously though, the ignorance of some is truly staggering. They need to take off their Vettel-tinted glasses and look at it objectively, but this won't happen. There's always going to be those that walk blindly.

Lawsy, Even Eddie Jordan thinks Webber squeezed him in the face of overwhelming evidence from two F1 drivers in Anthony Davidson and David Coulthard so I wouldnt get too worked up.

Anyone who knows anything about wheel to wheel racing realised in the instant it happen that Webber left Vettel enough room and Vettel turned right into Webber to cause contact. It was Webbers job to not give his rival more than the room he needed and he did exactly that. As Brundle said in his blog, if Mark had moved over and given Seb an easy time he may aswell hand Seb the title on a plate and go back to Australia. It was hard but fair racing from Webber, it was boneheaded inexperience from Vettel.