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Henrytheeigth
QUOTE (flyer121 @ Aug 3 2010, 01:15) *
Well obviously Mark's win counts and he did a wonderful job of pulling fast laps on old softs - no doubt.

But lets not make accusations that Seb has to do one above Mark because he is attention seeking! Its like adding insult to injury when one school of thought is that the error was caused in trying to help Mark recover from a stuffed up start.


Well to me he does seem like a brat plain and simple. When was the last time you saw a driver almost knock over the place board at a grand prix's end?
Sakae
That Vettel guy must be one bad rotten seed, after reading his evaluation since Turkey. Well, main thing is, everyone else is an Angel.
Cheers to all all of his judges!
goingthedistance
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 17:26) *
Well to me he does seem like a brat plain and simple. When was the last time you saw a driver almost knock over the place board at a grand prix's end?


The no-hands on the wheel rage at his team during the drive through was also pretty shocking!
Henrytheeigth
QUOTE (goingthedistance @ Aug 3 2010, 01:29) *
The no-hands on the wheel rage at his team during the drive through was also pretty shocking!


Yep indeed! Just needs maturity then even I'd respect him and his wins. He just needs to understand that he can't win always, and that finger has to be holstered imho.
Black Widow
QUOTE (Sakae @ Aug 2 2010, 10:27) *
That Vettel guy must be one bad rotten seed......


How right you are.

I am still waiting to see an apology for the childish antics displayed on the podium.

Removing your cap to a country's anthem shows respect.

To throw it on the ground does not.

If I was an Australian, I would be up in arms over the disrespect this brat showed to your country.

It's not acceptable under any circumstances.
goingthedistance
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 17:31) *
Yep indeed! Just needs maturity then even I'd respect him and his wins. He just needs to understand that he can't win always, and that finger has to be holstered imho.


I agree. I really want to like the guy. He's super quick and in time will be a champion. I'm a Webber fan but I rooted for Vettel just as much last year. I thought he'd be my next main driver to follow. But his emotional maturity is below par, that has become clear this year.

If he could only can the petulance and overt egoism I could go back to liking him! Reminds me a bit of Hamilton a few years back, before he was reprogrammed.
Sakae
QUOTE (Black Widow @ Aug 3 2010, 00:39) *
How right you are.

I am still waiting to see an apology for the childish antics displayed on the podium.

Removing your cap to a country's anthem shows respect.

To throw it on the ground does not.

If I was an Australian, I would be up in arms over the disrespect this brat showed to your country.

It's not acceptable under any circumstances.

Write him a letter full of big words, and capitalize them all; that will teach him.

If I would be an Ozi, and somebody insulted my country, I would be not happy either. But then, I am not Ozi, and my country is being insulted for many years couple of times a day, so I am used to it.
flyer121
QUOTE (goingthedistance @ Aug 2 2010, 16:25) *
Seb was not helping Mark. That is abundantly clear from the statements and his reactions yesterday. And Mark did not stuff up his start, it was as good as Seb's. The Ferrari's are clearly getting better starts (look how close Seb came to losing 1st to Alonso) and the dirty side of the track at Hungary was expected to be a problem. If he'd had an exceptional start he could have held position, but he had a normal/decent start and lost the position as expected.


Yes, that's why I said that one school of thought is such and such.. We had many Webber fans having various conspiracy theories over Seb being favored on the back of a hug and a new wing Mark could not differentiate from the old. So I am sure you can understand people having these thoughts and will take offence when anyone claims that the victory was "well deserved" and more hilariously "went to the faster driver" . Personally for me it is unprovable thats why I qualified it with my school of thought comment.

And yes Mark did not have the best of the starts- relative to Seb ofcourse because Seb clearly maintained position. Although I have to agree that the dirty side argument can be used here. I m just not sure how much of handicap that really is.

Black Widow
QUOTE (Sakae @ Aug 2 2010, 10:46) *
Write him a letter full of big words, and capitalize them all; that will teach him.


Flippant comments do not justify his actions

QUOTE (Sakae @ Aug 2 2010, 10:46) *
If I would be an Ozi, and somebody insulted my country, I would be not happy either. But then, I am not Ozi, and my country is being insulted for many years couple of times a day, so I am used to it.


Being used to something does not make the actions any less wrong.
flyer121
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 16:31) *
Yep indeed! Just needs maturity then even I'd respect him and his wins. He just needs to understand that he can't win always, and that finger has to be holstered imho.


Now that is the logic I don't understand. He has more maturity than anyone would ever have at 23.

And to expect maturity just after a win in the bag has been taken away from him,
-with the team not telling him the full set of events
-and leaving him to ask the FIA official,
-with Mark jumping like a Kangaroo 3 inches to your right as if he has just driven the race of his life

is a bit rich.

If he was any more chilled out , he would tread on Kimi territory which I would never want even though I am a bigtime Kimi fan first .
Black Widow
QUOTE (flyer121 @ Aug 2 2010, 11:05) *
And yes Mark did not have the best of the starts- relative to Seb ofcourse because Seb clearly maintained position. Although I have to agree that the dirty side argument can be used here. I m just not sure how much of handicap that really is.


flyer121, I can only answer that based on something I read recently and can not find the supporting link to.

This article stated that Hungaroring was considered one of the top three worst tracks to start on the dirty side.
Henrytheeigth
I present a visual presentation -

QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 3 2010, 01:26) *
Well to me he does seem like a brat plain and simple. When was the last time you saw a driver almost knock over the place board at a grand prix's end?




QUOTE (goingthedistance @ Aug 3 2010, 01:29) *
The no-hands on the wheel rage at his team during the drive through was also pretty shocking!




ha flyer I admit I don't like that jump Mark does as well lol
Gareth
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 16:10) *
Yes and that is what counts of course, not Marks win no no no rolleyes.gif

Well, Webber seemed to endorse that view in his comments re: Ferrari team orders. "The faster guy won the race". I wonder if Seb had got by Alonso, how Webber would have reacted to "Sebastien Is Faster Than You. Please confirm you understood that message" ...
Henrytheeigth
QUOTE (Gareth @ Aug 3 2010, 02:17) *
Well, Webber seemed to endorse that view in his comments re: Ferrari team orders. "The faster guy won the race". I wonder if Seb had got by Alonso, how Webber would have reacted to "Sebastien Is Faster Than You. Please confirm you understood that message" ...


I'm so glad he didn't get by Alonso, that way no one can say that Vettel gifted the win to Mark or similar. Anyway crossing the line first is what counts. smile.gif
goingthedistance
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 18:16) *
I present a visual presentation -









ha flyer I admit I don't like that jump Mark does as well lol


lol.gif

He really was p'd off wasn't he.

I don't like the Webber jump either, looks a bit silly. Isn't it a faux-Schumacher jump? I must admit I think he's started doing it to annoy/mimic Vettel, who used to do that too.
Henrytheeigth
QUOTE (goingthedistance @ Aug 3 2010, 02:22) *
lol.gif

He really was p'd off wasn't he.

I don't like the Webber jump either, looks a bit silly. Isn't it a faux-Schumacher jump? I must admit I think he's started doing it to annoy/mimic Vettel, who used to do that too.


I can't remember! When was the last time Vettel won? lol.gif ah yes valencia bah lol
bourbon
Goingthedistance, I see absolutely nothing wrong with either video short. He was angry because he didn't know why he had a penalty in both shots. The team "didn't wish to discuss it on radio" - even after the race. It was altogether natural he'd be upset. You know, like Mark, when he couldn't find it in his character to congratulate his team mate after pole and ignored him completely - not even looking at him - on world wide TV. These things happen when the emotions are high. Mark's behavior has been much more immature and worse than what we see in either of those vids on occassion. And in fact, Seb's has been less mature than that also. So I really don't know what you hoped to gain by showing us those, but it doesn't underline the point you have been making about immaturity if that is what you are trying to show. Seb had a legitimate beef in those situations.
sprice
QUOTE (Supersleeper @ Aug 2 2010, 00:50) *
Fanboy gone wild. roflmao.gif


Slightly more credibly, Tom Cary of the Telegraph thought it was fishy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorspor...ian-Vettel.html

I find it interesting that for all the comments that Seb should have known the rule, none of the commentators seemed clued in about it as they also talked about Seb making space for Mark without mention of watching the gap behind the safety car....

Watching at home we were amused by Seb's petulant performance. Boy does he care; he's a perfectionist, hates to lose and make a mistake - traits that mark him out as a future Champion in our view. smile.gif

Sakae
I wonder if Horner is making Sebastian Number 2 for this year. Review the season and realize what they had put him through this year; a year he was hoping to become a WDC. Now Horner is sending him public message? What an insult added to the injury. I would be angry too.
flyer121
Right - I agree that Vettel behaved as if he was pissed in those videos. The point is - he had all the right to be pissed.

I am sure once he calms down and realizes that it was his own mistake - then he would be his jolly good self in no time.
On the contrary if it was a team instruction or stupidity that landed him there - I would excuse him all the petulance he can show for the rest of the season.

Now Webber, being a fully grown up man of 34, is still the man I don't have high expectations from when it comes to maturity.
I imagine he wouldn't even congratulate Vettel if (and how I wish it were the case smile.gif) Seb became WDC on the strength of beating Web in the last race.
Ricardo F1
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 08:31) *
Yep indeed! Just needs maturity then even I'd respect him and his wins. He just needs to understand that he can't win always, and that finger has to be holstered imho.
Maturity like causing a major debacle in the team and the press when your team mate gets given the wing you couldn't even evaluate as quicker just because he pnwed you in qualifying? That sort of maturity is it? roflmao.gif

That said Mark did a wonderful job yesterday, Vettel threw it away again. Given the car superiority Webber has a real chance of the WDC if the luck this season continues to go his way and Vettel and his team continue to screw up. It would be an astonishing accomplishment.
Sakae
QUOTE (flyer121 @ Aug 3 2010, 02:47) *
I am sure once he calms down and realizes that it was his own mistake


This is the $64,000 question, isn't it? I can read body language as a next fellow man, but this was not an accountable Vettel (we know), who has always accepted responsibility for his mistakes. This was a behavior of a young man who felt cheated by betrayal from within. That's my reading of the scene.

Mandzipop
Something looked odd I must admit. We'll just have to wait for the race edit on FOM.
bourbon
I don't think Horner's comments were too bad Sakae - Horner said what he had to say, and considering some of his past remarks, these were actually pretty cool, lol.gif. Believe me, I don't trust the guy as far as I can throw - but I do understand the position he is in at the moment and so what he is saying makes sense. As the BBC radio reporter pointed out: "He [Vettel] clearly didn't know about the safety car rule but it's the team's job to make sure the driver knows the rules" Article. So RBR is not blameless, even though Horner says it is premature to blame the radio before they look at the situation and see what happened (RBR is learning, lol). They know they have to be careful about what they say to the press - recent experience has shown them that much. But it is also true that the team is there to help advise in all issues on the track for its drivers and that would include SC rules that drivers don't seem to be obeying.

In the end, Vettel is only 10 points out of the lead and he's a champ, so wtih 7 races left, it is not overly worrying. He's as good as chance as ever for WDC and that is true for several drivers still. So let's see what happens. Luckily for him, he is young and has many years ahead to repeat the effort if he can't pull it off this year. But I believe he can - and I still think he will.


------------

Q: How easy is it for you to put this race behind you and look forward positively?
SV: Ah, that is never a problem for me. The following day I’ve put everything behind me. It’s simply not good to start reflecting on what could have happened without this lapse, because in this way you keep yourself stuck in something that is already a thing of the past. (f1.com)

Now where have I heard that before? Ah, that would be from the other 3 drivers I have followed with interest in F1 over the years. WTG Vet! Every time I turn around I am re-impressed by this kid.
kanec
QUOTE (Sakae @ Aug 2 2010, 18:22) *
This is the $64,000 question, isn't it? I can read body language as a next fellow man, but this was not an accountable Vettel (we know), who has always accepted responsibility for his mistakes. This was a behavior of a young man who felt cheated by betrayal from within. That's my reading of the scene.


I personally don't think it's betrayal, but Vettel had every right to be pissed. It's heat of the moment stuff and for a 23 y.o. I personally think he's doing a grand job.

Anyhow, who wants corporate robots up there? I think it's good Vettel show's his heart on his sleeve - there's nothing wrong with it.
hansmann
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 15:26) *
Well to me he does seem like a brat plain and simple. When was the last time you saw a driver almost knock over the place board at a grand prix's end?


Forgot about that one, poor style again. It was done on purpose, silly indeed.

Apart from being immature, Vettel just can't race.
He is brilliant in qualy, no doubt, but that's about it. A one trick pony.
There's no way he could ever pass a car/driver combo even remotely close to his car's capabilities during a race, unless he gets lucky at the start.

QUOTE (Sakae @ Aug 2 2010, 15:46) *
But then, I am not Ozi, and my country is being insulted for many years couple of times a day, so I am used to it.


And what country would that be, if I may ask ?
MaxisOne
QUOTE (flyer121 @ Aug 2 2010, 12:13) *
Now that is the logic I don't understand. He has more maturity than anyone would ever have at 23.

And to expect maturity just after a win in the bag has been taken away from him,
-with the team not telling him the full set of events
-and leaving him to ask the FIA official,
-with Mark jumping like a Kangaroo 3 inches to your right as if he has just driven the race of his life

is a bit rich.

If he was any more chilled out , he would tread on Kimi territory which I would never want even though I am a bigtime Kimi fan first .


First off .. The win wasn't taken from him .. .HE gave it away...

Second. The team wanted him to focus on the race .. not bitch and moan about the penalty.. That would be dealt with post race.. and rightly so.

And finally .. in all honesty .. i would consider that middle stint to create that gap for his pit plus the cushion for his crew (very considerate) sufficient evidence that he just did make the drive of his life.. at least in a long while.. The only time this performance could be eclipsed was his win in Germany last year when we won in similar fashion while serving a drive thru penalty.

Vettells behavior was simply atrocious during the serving of the penalty and immediately post race.. and while i can understand the disappointment .. it was bordering on over the top. He managed to pull himself together for the post race conference and i recognize that .. which is good in itself so i will leave it at that.

I didn't give two hoots about Webber or Vettell to be honest till turkey.. but dont pretend that Mark had the win handed to him on a silver platter on Sunday. If you think that is the case then i really think you are being very disingenuous.
Supersleeper
QUOTE (sprice @ Aug 3 2010, 02:41) *
Slightly more credibly, Tom Cary of the Telegraph thought it was fishy.


The rules are pretty clear - Seb didn't comply with them. At the time of the restart I was under the distinct impression that the team had suggested that type of start to advantage Mark, but having watched the replay - the FIA didn't have issue with the restart - their issue with him was as he was heading across the start/finish line down the main straight prior to the restart.....

So the restart wasn't the issue..... though I'm sure it would have been, if he was close to to Mark on the main straight.
sprice
QUOTE (Supersleeper @ Aug 2 2010, 22:28) *
The rules are pretty clear - Seb didn't comply with them. At the time of the restart I was under the distinct impression that the team had suggested that type of start to advantage Mark, but having watched the replay - the FIA didn't have issue with the restart - their issue with him was as he was heading across the start/finish line down the main straight prior to the restart.....

So the restart wasn't the issue..... though I'm sure it would have been, if he was close to to Mark on the main straight.


According to this, it was the restart

QUOTE
NB: It's worth mentioning that the penalty came from the stewards for a breach of regulations at 14:29 (local time). Cross referencing this time with Sidepodcast's Factbyte Factbox coverage, confirms the penalty was given for falling too far behind just before the race restart, rather than at the beginning of the previous lap as FOM television coverage suggested at the time.


http://sidepodcast.com/2010/08/02/confusio...y-car-incident/
GhostR
@sprice - that's the one they picked out to penalise as it looked worse on TV in light of what happened in Germany. If Vettel had stayed on Webber's gearbox at the restart they would have been obliged to ping him the same penalty for what FOM showed at the start of the lap. So Vettel made the same error not once, but twice.

QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Aug 2 2010, 17:58) *
Maturity like causing a major debacle in the team and the press when your team mate gets given the wing you couldn't even evaluate as quicker just because he pnwed you in qualifying? That sort of maturity is it? roflmao.gif

And back in the real world, what was said at Silverstone was that "one driver showed a greater preference for the new wing than the other." At no point did anyone say that Mark couldn't tell the difference. He just wasn't as overtly in favour of it as Vettel was. IIRC Vettel got more laps with the new one as well, which might explain why Vettel expressed a greater preference for it - he had more time to evaluate it.

You'd be more credible in this thread if you weren't taking statements completely out of context and warping them to fit your own agenda.
Kovalonso
QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Aug 2 2010, 13:58) *
Maturity like causing a major debacle in the team and the press when your team mate gets given the wing you couldn't even evaluate as quicker just because he pnwed you in qualifying? That sort of maturity is it? roflmao.gif

No, maturity is trying to split a SUV in two with a mighty bycicle.
Then hide from your employer that you also have a cracked collarbone, but you didn't realize it, just to piss off your boss in litle installments.
Alfisti
QUOTE (Kovalonso @ Aug 3 2010, 00:19) *
No, maturity is trying to split a SUV in two with a mighty bycicle.
Then hide from your employer that you also have a cracked collarbone, but you didn't realize it, just to piss off your boss in litle installments.


And still manage to lead the chosen one some 12 races into the season.
woftam
QUOTE (Kovalonso @ Aug 3 2010, 08:19) *
No, maturity is trying to split a SUV in two with a mighty bycicle.
Then hide from your employer that you also have a cracked collarbone, but you didn't realize it, just to piss off your boss in litle installments.


Seriously, with your form on this bulletin board you are the last person that should be mocking somebody's maturity.
Sakae
QUOTE (GhostR @ Aug 3 2010, 08:10) *
And back in the real world, what was said at Silverstone was that "one driver showed a greater preference for the new wing than the other."
That's your spin or a factual description? I didn't read about Vettel stamping his foot down "I must have it"! I am noticing how increased number of local experts are readilly puting words into Vettel's mouth, whilst none of them actually can give us accurate context of various encounters, weekend after weekend.

Have you possibly considered following scenario: Horner said, Seb, I want you to try new wing. Are you OK with it? Yeah, sure, said Seb. What about Mark? Ah, I don't see any difference; try it. Press gets hold of it, and ***** hits the fan, and Mark is juicing it as much as traffic shall bear. Is this greater preference for you? It is not for me. Semantics, but man's character is defamed by inuendoes.

Point I am making is, that you guys are slinging mud on Sebastian without really knowing what was going on. In dynamic situations, heat, noise, rush, tension, etc., maybe conversations take different shape and form then when one sits at home in the front of fireplace in his slippers, and it would be nice to judge it that way, for a change.
Supersleeper
QUOTE (sprice @ Aug 3 2010, 07:49) *
According to this, it was the restart

WIADR - I'm going with the rule as it is applied to the vision FOM supplied.

Sidepodcast making claims that they know more than FOM is a bit strange TBH.


Supersleeper
QUOTE (Sakae @ Aug 3 2010, 08:32) *
That's your spin or a factual description?

Difficult to see how anyone could spin a quote that doesn't exist from an engineer that never said anything to a journalist desperate for reader attention.

Journalists make things up - because people (by demonstration) are naive enough to believe them.
Kovalonso
I didn't try an Evel Knivel, nor like to be lost in the woods with a bunch of guys in tight pants.
kanec
QUOTE (Kovalonso @ Aug 2 2010, 23:39) *
I didn't try an Evel Knivel, nor like to be lost in the woods with a bunch of guys in tight pants.


Do you think of this often? Nevermind, if that's how you like to visualise it then I guess it's your perogative.

cat.gif
Seanspeed
QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Aug 2 2010, 12:58) *
just because he pnwed you in qualifying?

This sentence is immediately followed by:

QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Aug 2 2010, 12:58) *
That sort of maturity is it? roflmao.gif


Saying a driver has been 'pwned' is not the best choice of words if you're trying to prove yourself a good judge of maturity.
goldenboy
QUOTE (Henrytheeigth @ Aug 2 2010, 17:16) *
I present a visual presentation -









ha flyer I admit I don't like that jump Mark does as well lol

I think a lot of ppl are going a bit overboard on how seb reacted after the race. Weve seen drivers wave their arms around DURING a race even at 200 clicks going round a corner. And he bumped the sign - I thought from the way everyone was going on about it that he punched it over when he got out of his car!! And the hat thing doesn't even register with me as an issue and I'm australian.

I don't have a problem at all with vettel in this race - I'm just annoyed that his fans are trying to say it was
a) RB or someone elses fault for seb getting a penalty when it was just him WHICH HE ADMITTED
b) that webber didn't deserve the win - he pulled out 25 laps of qually when the pressure for the win was on and didn't make a mistake. Maybe not the hardest thing he's ever done but worthy of the win definately.

I think seb got unlucky, but he did make a mistake he shouldn't have. Like webber has before himself. No big deal just accept it. To try and say it's the teams fault for that, and kovo saying webber shouldn't have taken advantage of the safety car is just plain stupid.
kanec
QUOTE (goldenboy @ Aug 3 2010, 01:09) *
I think a lot of ppl are going a bit overboard on how seb reacted after the race. Weve seen drivers wave their arms around DURING a race even at 200 clicks going round a corner. And he bumped the sign - I thought from the way everyone was going on about it that he punched it over when he got out of his car!! And the hat thing doesn't even register with me as an issue and I'm australian.

I don't have a problem at all with vettel in this race - I'm just annoyed that his fans are trying to say it was
a) RB or someone elses fault for seb getting a penalty when it was just him WHICH HE ADMITTED
b) that webber didn't deserve the win - he pulled out 25 laps of qually when the pressure for the win was on and didn't make a mistake. Maybe not the hardest thing he's ever done but worthy of the win definately.

I think seb got unlucky, but he did make a mistake he shouldn't have. Like webber has before himself. No big deal just accept it. To try and say it's the teams fault for that, and kovo saying webber shouldn't have taken advantage of the safety car is just plain stupid.


Spot effin on.

I shall buy you a beer with my winnings.

/burp
Ricardo F1
QUOTE (Seanspeed @ Aug 2 2010, 16:14) *
This sentence is immediately followed by:
Saying a driver has been 'pwned' is not the best choice of words if you're trying to prove yourself a good judge of maturity.
Depends what business you're in. smile.gif
Alfisti
Again though, this is why Webber is an awkward driver, he's not a real number one nor number 2. Can you imagine Kovalainen or Fisichella pumping out 20 odd laps like that?
Ricardo F1
QUOTE (Alfisti @ Aug 2 2010, 18:06) *
Again though, this is why Webber is an awkward driver, he's not a real number one nor number 2. Can you imagine Kovalainen or Fisichella pumping out 20 odd laps like that?
In that car? Yes, probably.
Melbourne Park
People might also consider that both drivers are setting their cars up differently. Webber is having much stiffer setups from reports, and Vettle's are softer. Webber's setups are more difficult to drive. Hence in qualifying, MW is making more errors. But in the race, the stiffer setup is providing a better car for race duration, obviously.

It's foolish to evaluate a driver from qualifying speed.

Webber is a very safe race bet from pole.

As to the championship, if Hamilton graps a pole, and Jenson stays slow, then it will be Seb #2 and Web #3, and if that happens, Webber would beat Seb. Seb's crew would know all that too, and they realise more than most drivers he really needs to have the pole.
Alfisti
QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Aug 3 2010, 03:09) *
In that car? Yes, probably.


You have got to be ****ing kidding me, they were abysmal drivers in championship winning cars. Particularly Kovalainen who had just three cars to beat (Hamilton, Kimi and Massa) because they were in another league and would finish 6,7th .. whatever. No way they are pulling those laps, no way.
Melbourne Park
QUOTE (Ricardo F1 @ Aug 3 2010, 11:09) *
In that car? Yes, probably.


Look this year at Alonso - he's made a lot of mistakes. He's the same driver though. He made a lot of mistakes last year in the Renault too.

Hamilton looks better in traffic than the RBR drivers. But put Hamilton in the RBR, and he'd have the same traffic issues, and the same lack of power. The cars are different, and pure single lap times don't reveal the differences between the cars.

Is Button loosing his mojo as a driver? No - the car is simply moving away from him, its not suiting him. Button's the same driver though, who was comfortably leading Hamilton until quite recently. Hamilton's not perfect either - he had delay in the car, and just drove on, as hard as he could. IF he'd have backed off, the team might have identified the gear box problem. Instead, he did not finish.

There's no clear reference point for Webber though, because he hasn't been in a top car before. its well known that he's very fast, which is why some teams have been keen on getting him, and their drivers not so keen. Just read what Rosberg said about Weebber's pace, and Rosberg is regarded as a solid driver. And in perspective, Webber's borderline too old, at the age where a driver can slow down. If BMW had of stayed with Williams, Webber's reputation and record would be much higher, but that is one of the vagaries of sport.

The reverse is the situation with Vettel, who if he won the WDC this year, would be the youngest to have done so. His driving is has some critical errors that many of the grid would not make in his position, such as while knowing the radio is faulty, not staying close to the SC, and despite knowing that the lights on the SC go out and therefor warn drivers that the SC is going in, Seb simply did not think of looking to check the lights. Instead according to him, he "dreamed". With a team of 700 people working to make a top car, he's allowing his mind to wander. That's inexperience for you. Seb's crash in Canada was much the same inexperience error in not looking to see where the other car was when he lined his car up for the next corner. Seb's used too much fuel on occasion too, there's a list of issues that are related purely to inexperience, I could go on and on. While Webber is able to tell his pitcrew that he wants to stay out there so there is "no pressure on the boys" ie his pitcrew, it seems that Seb is not thinking too much about the race while he's out there. Inexperience and perhaps that is the new generation of driver? That Seb thought about getting the fastest lap, but how mature is that in today's competition?

Hamilton has been in the top car since he arrived in F1. We see him in a top car, to get an idea of what he's really like, we need to see him in an average car and see how he performs for a couple of seasons. Unfortunately modern F1 is about branding heros and making money off their brand, so the true ability of drivers won't really be known in today's F1. Which is why I'd like a driver switching formula. In today's F1, Jim Clark wouldn't win in an average car. But in a system that switched driver between the cars every race, Jim would win the championship, and gracefully too. Now, we don't know who is the best driver, and that's the way the F1 architect brand specialists want it to be.

Ian G
QUOTE (Melbourne Park @ Aug 3 2010, 11:16) *
It's foolish to evaluate a driver from qualifying speed.


Yep,you can tell from the posts in this thread that many contributers here have never raced,their opinions are interesting but come from a different angle to a competitors view of things.Its only a matter of time,IMO, before Vettel has a major off in final Q especially with the constant fiddling with parts and settings that constitute modern F-1. I think Canada was a wake up call for Mark,not worth writing off the fastest car in the race just to beat yout team mate.



flyer121
QUOTE (Alfisti @ Aug 3 2010, 02:24) *
You have got to be ****ing kidding me, they were abysmal drivers in championship winning cars. Particularly Kovalainen who had just three cars to beat (Hamilton, Kimi and Massa) because they were in another league and would finish 6,7th .. whatever. No way they are pulling those laps, no way.


Why are u so desperate to prove that Mark did something out of this world? He did not , got lucky ! Good for his fans - Enjoy!!
The tyres hold up - its as simple as that.

Kovi would definitely have driven that for 40 laps..
Sakae
I think some posters are getting ahead of themselves in praises of Webber's qualities. Those taking time for more critical review of circumstances behind results of individual races shall hold off until Nov.
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