Actually I didn't argue one way or the other. Vettel does have potential, but it is time that his fans stop using inexperience as an excuse. As was pointed out in an earlier post he has only done a handful of races less than others.

Then we are on the same page.

Vettel has a lot less F1 experience than Webber, but beat him in the same car last year. Logic dictates that Vettel will have more experience this year and so should beat Webber again, if not challenge the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and Schumacher for the title.

+ 1



To be fair his race pace was pretty good last year - where he needs to improve on last year is his performance in Q3. *Hopefully* the switch to smaller front tyres and low fuel in Q3 can see him return to his previous qualy form...



Love your work jez...



I agree that this should be the year for Mark - no existing injuries, the car again seems good, and reg changes should also play to his strengths.



Not guaranteed. Those types of drivers may well be more penalised...

All Vettel fans are in fantasy land, aren't they? Just see their posts in this thread , I can't help laughing. All Vettel fans, it has only 7 days to wake up!

Why is Vettel success considered hype? There is no one racing this year who I favor, so I am not a "vettel fan" - but I picked Sebastian Vettel as the young man to beat. I would not be so brazen as to say he'll win this year, but I believe that he will win within 3 years (this one, the next or the one after). He is not like Hamilton, but he has adjusted very well over time and his 2nd place last year was only helped a little and was mostly a product of his steady improvement. I am not so concerned about the Renault engine as others, and I think Red Bull can provide him with what he needs to win. Why are people so down on this talented kid?

I don't hate Mark Webber - although I am not a fan at all. I think he drove very well last year (for him) and the car was great for him. But come on - Webber? I think of Barichello... Maybe he will prove me wrong, but he seems to have a lot of problems and MANY excuses over the years. So we will see, hopefully he has no problems this year and can show us what he can do. But the main thing is I see Webber going out and Vettel coming in. I think it would be a little nuts of Red Bull to stick with Webber if he doesn't produce strongly when you have Jacques and Kimi in the wings and perhaps even more ready to move next year.

Hahaha if you think that Red Bull would consider for more then 0.000001 of a second hiring JV, you need professional medical help.

Id take Mark over JV any day in 2010.

I think he was driving exactly the bloody same, actually. His driving form didn't dip during his run of 5 non-scoring races, aside from the costly error in Japan.

What does having a WDC in Formula One prove, exactly? Aside from 'been there done that' bragging rights, all it really shows is that you were level-headed & talented enough to hold it all together when you had a car advantage over the rest of the field.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I mean, Hamilton fell over the line truth be told, and BUTTON has a WDC for crying out loud! It doesn't mean Button's raw talent is on an entirely different plane to Vettel, and thus comparisons are unworthy. I note the Hamilton fans regularly sprout off that Lewis will decimate Button - aren't they both WDC's, and thus on a level well above Vettel? Because if you dont agree with that, your argument that Vettel cant be compared to Lewis really doesn't hold up.

I can't believe I'm letting myself get dragged in lol, oh well, all good fun.

Japan was the low point, a crash, they all have 'em, pretty fail luck to bust a chassis with a shunt like that, Schumi put it in the fence at Spa 1996 during practice, his "form" hadn't dipped to the point of "desperation" at the time...your posts however...

What else are you going to argue? We know your ideas on Italy but thats a bit of a stretch to put responsibility to Mark for that. You'll probably try and rationalise your position by mentioning how he'd been mean to Kubica off the line, I hope you do, so I can quote it for the next time Mark gives room to someone off the line which you roll him for every second race.

Hrm Spa, well he put a nice move on Sebvet there, do you blame his form for the unsafe pit release?

Valencia, pretty average I admit, though if the car isn't there it isn't there. I didn't think Sebvet was rubbish at Italy for instance, there just wasn't much more to be have. Lost something like 4 secs to Sebvet in 15 laps during the race, Mark had 3 laps more fuel at that time *shrugs* Hardly a debacle. (I excluded the gap gained in the first lap because of cheaty Button, so sue me!)

Then we have Singapore, well brake fail there. We hardly got settled in that race, though if poor form helps you take a two time world champion around the outside while he pushes you both off the road onto the dirty stuff, then keep it coming please.

The other 3 races after his win he was on the podium.

"all it really shows is that you were level-headed & talented enough to hold it all together when you had a car advantage over the rest of the field.

Nothing more, nothing less" - wrong, wrong and wrong again - see 2008, there was arguably no car advantage so you can't generalise like that.

You can't devalue a WDC (like you're attempting to do) because Seb doesn't have one - a WDC is the ULTIMATE goal for any Formula 1 Driver, to win one means you took on all challengers and came out on top - to win one means you're better* than all others that year and moreso than those without one.

*according to the FIA rankings anyway which is the accepted barometer for the Sport we all follow and love

So please, let's not go OT because this thread is Vettel VS Webber; this young man has a special talent yes and I fully expect him to hand Webber a thrashing this year too but he is NOT currently as good as or better () than the WDC's on the grid.

you seriously think Vettel's not a level or three above Button RIGHT NOW?

Question: If McLaren had a straight choice between Vettel or Button (even if Button has the *WDC next to his name, and Vettel was a bit more expensive), who would they choose? Hell, make it ANY team choosing between Button and Vettel.

I think prior to winning 'his' WDC (actually, Ross Brawn's) Button wouldn't have even beaten Webber in a straight choice.

I´ve never been in Marks corner, until now that is.
It just p++sed me off having to listen to his bad luck this and bad luck that, simply because I don´t believe in luck, good or bad. Ok, now and again something goes wrong that is totally out of anyone´s control, but in my experience in life, it all kind of balances out in the end.
Having said that though, I think Mark has put that phase of his life behind him. I think he and his supporters now understand the bad luck excuse wears a bit thin after a while, and it´s not the way to advance his career.
He acquired a capable car in 2009, and to his everlasting credit he did a great job with what he had at his disposal. Even more so when one considers the circumstances he faced going into that season.
With regards his comparison to Button, I think they are on a very similar level, but I believe both of them are just a dash off the level of Vettel, who starts this season as the favourite in my books. However, maybe, just maybe, Mark can raise his level this year now that he´s back to 100% fitness. His confidence must also be at an all time high after winning last season, so I´m expecting Seb´s biggest challenge to come from within his own team.
Gonna be damn interesting either way.

Of course Button. I can't see any advantage Vettel has. Button at least can carry Number 1 to the team and good for the marketing. Why you think team manager should choose Vettel? Why are you so sure? Button 6 wins and Vettel 4 wins, who is better? Button WDC, Vettel runner-up, who is better? The only advantage Vettel has is his age. But a big team always prefers an experienced driver as their 2nd driver unless one big team choose Vettel as their 1st Driver ( But Vettel hasn't reached the level to be 1st driver, because he achieved nothing yet, just a runner-up). And you say Vettel is a level or three above Button. Ok, then what is Vettel? Is he the Champion of the Universe or something else? I understand you are a Vettel fan.But as a fan,we shouldn't neglect the fact,shall we?

I wonder how the likes of Moss, Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve, to name just a few, ever managed to get any kind of reputation.

Vettel is as good as these legends now? Oh,my God

Did I say that? No!

read what I was responding to


Having a wdc is not a prerequisite to being considerd great.

I'm actually not a Vettel fan, per se!

I'm a Webber fan, but I can see the amount of outright talent Vettel is in possession of, it's waaaay ahead of Button who (like Webber) is a solid dependable driver.... but nothing particularly special imo.

If all the drivers were free agents, and we were having some kind of a draft, Vettel would be taken immediately after Hamilton and Alonso. WDC or no WDC asterix next to his name. I can see Kubica, Massa, and possibly Rosberg being taken before Button was snapped up too, because their potential career upside is greater.

Which brings me back to the original point I was making a few posts ago: the WDC doesn't mean a lot, and it's not the ultimate determiner of driver talent - the car determines a good 80% of a driver's success, because almost anyone who makes F1 is a potential champion in the right car.

Excellent post.

Exactly, ranking a driver based on how many WDC they have won is rather stupid. In fact ill always have more respect for the guys back from the early 80's backwards, because of the absolute beasts they drove, and zero safety nets they had. Makes todays drivers look tame.

Bishy go to Youtube and look up "Patrick Depailler onboard". Thats ****ing talent. And only 2 gp wins......... what a shit driver

Agree, because if you think how Hamilton won his, and Button last year, one must scratch his head about those two titles and how deserved they were. (I am not starting WWIII, but still...)!

It probably is in the current era.

That is also rather stupid..

but driven by the media & Bernie's marketing, not the drivers.

I doubt when Alonso retires he's going to think less of guys like Webber who (probably) never won a WDC. They all go thru the same shit as drivers, but if you're lucky you get a shot in a good car and maybe more than once.

Why?

Maybe respect is the wrong word... But i certainly admire them more.

Thats right let them die like Senna to prove they were tough

Doesnt mean anyone has to think poorly of them, but I seriously doubt any of them will be considered a great. Webber is already considered a journeyman driver by many, so can't see them changing their opinion without at least one WDC under his belt.

Think about it. They had no choice to race with such risks involved...

Where did i say that?

...and there you go again with the underestimation

Please tell me, if the WDC didn't mean that much why would some Legends cheat to win one?

It certainy means a lot. But its not the be all and end all when rating a drivers talent or skill as you would like us to believe.

But is a WDC some kind of .... validation?

I still think the same of Button as I did before he lucked into Ross Brawn's wonder car and won a WDC - he's a journeyman, much like what many think of Webber. If Webber wins the title this year, I reckon most people who didn't really rate will still not really rate him.

The only saving grace for whoever wins this year is that Schumacher is back, and there are probably going to be 4 or 5 teams (and 8 or 9 drivers) capable of a race win, which should help this year's champion gain a little more credit.

Yep JVs time in F1 is over

Yes the WDC is some sort of validation. It doesn't automatically make you a great, but in the current era I simply don't think any driver is going to be considered a great without winning at least one.

Dude I understand, along the lines of what Gilles said I too can appreciate talent in a WDC-less driver however - how do we compare the drivers taking out our individually-biaised views? We use the FIA Rankings and with the history books primarily focussed on WDC's it's the sure-fire way to prove you were the best and to undermine it is to undermine the very reason we're on these F1 Boards



Not trying to brain-wash anyone here at all, as I said a few pages back I was just injecting a dose of reality into the discussion.

I'm a bit torn on this matter - I see your point, but personally I dont see winning a WDC as making a driver more important than a statistically less-successful counterpart in the scheme of things. I'd rate Coulthard as being every bit the driver Button and Villeneuve are/were, for example. If they were in a pub and I was speaking to all three of them I wouldn't address Button or JV with more reverance ... but some people might I guess.

They're all about the same level in F1 terms in my eyes, just good solid drivers, two of whom won WDCs.

If you have a WDC capable car and you dont perform see how long you last in the team

Good solid drivers yes, but would you put them on the great pedestal? It's difficult because we probably all have different reasons why we view one driver as better than another, and it's not always just about the results.

Makes me sort of wonder why you bother watching?

You just have to suck it up until Vettel wins a WDC, Kimi's fans used to get the same crap. Having said that, a WDC still counts for something, it proves you can string together a season and perform under pressure.

What kind of Championship Win doesn't make one scratch his head? Please answer me!!!

When you win one, it's a fluke. When you win two, perhaps you onto something, but when you win three (and more), you have arrived.

But why in this thread, so many people rank Vettel higher than Button,even Hamilton? Look back to some posts, someone say Vettel is a level or 3 above Button. Then I have a question, what kind of factor make Vettel seem to have such a big advantage? Why he is better than Button by far? I'm just a bit confused. Can anyone tell me some truth about Vettel which I don't know? Or can you recommend me to watch some classic Vettel's races ,whatever in F3000,GP2 (I guess he hasn't), at least 2 races to convince me! Because so many people say here, if you judge a person,you can not just rely on the result,like WDC. So give me some races of Vettel's motorsport career.

So it means something after all.

0<1<2<3

Mansell has just one and also D.Hill, K.Raikkonen, K.Rosberg. They all won them by a fluke, didn't they?

Taste of victory is suppose to be something more then just impotence of a numerical analysis.

Gee i'd have Vettel in my car ahead of Button. Solid driver Button but Vettel has that spark of raw pace that's hard to teach. He makes a few errors but with a great car it's not the end of the world. Contrary to the peole saying RBR had the best car last year, you couldn't touch the Brawn early and Ferrari/McLaren stole quite a few points from te slow in a straight line RB's. The previosu few years had just two teams up front with the third team MILES AND MILES slower.
Even a REAL bad weekend meant 4th if you were in a red or silver car.

To me there are three drivers up the top with something special, (Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel), the next bunch are very, very good drivers but lack 'it', whatever 'it' is.

It's Vettel v Webber not 'what's a WDC worth?' Please keep on topic.

Recommend me some races to prove Vettel's raw pace. At least two,whatever races (F3, GP2,F1). Thanks