I noticed his racecraft wasn't great at the 2009 Spanish GP and everything I saw after that just confirmed my suspicion. And I've said for a while that Red Bull should have let him do a season of GP2 so I do agree with you.

You are right that he seems to have taken note of the criticism of his racecraft and become more aggressive, but a lot of the time he is going overboard now. Turkey, the start swerves, that move on Sutil at Silverstone (He was very lucky not to take his own wing off with that), its aggression like they do in the junior series. Maybe he still has time to mature though.

I'm not sure if being beaten by Webber is doing him much good. It forces him to raise his game but I don't think it does do much for his confidence. Despite outwardly saying its good to have a competitive team mate to push you, I would guess that secretly he thought he would end up as the de facto #1.

That's certainly a view backed by Mark Hughes in his recent article.

Drivers can build the "existing" team around them and get this team to help service their needs. However they play no part in building a team, per se. DC may think he convinced Adrian Newey to join the Red Bull team in the early building phase, but it had more to do with the £8m cheque Mateschitz waved in front of his face than Newey wanting to join a team because "DC convinced him so". Same goes with every other driver in the field - they do not have the influence that many of their fans think they have.

The ebbing and flowing of performances of teams have more to do with engineers moving around, technical teams geling as a group, the changes in regulations and how engineering teams react to them with their solutions. Drivers are pawns who drive the car and give feedback which can help with direction of development. They do not develop the car. Again, they have very little influence when it comes to how a car is developed in a similar way to how little sway over how a team is built. Do you really think a driver has even the slightest grasp of aero/thermo/fluid dynamics?

Webber and Vettel are not great team builders or car developers. They are fortunate enough to be seated in one of the best cars due to a combination of persistence, foresight and luck - more heavily weighted to the latter in my view.

I think, neither Vettel nor Webber have developed the EBD or the flexible front wing, this are the reasons why RedBull are faster than the rest

To me Spa is the key. It has a monster straight but is a more balanced track than Monza. If Red Bull manage to win there, it bodes well for the likes of other balanced tracks like Abu Dhabi and I believe they will romp away with the WDC and WCC.

However I am expecting an Alonso, Hamilton or Button victory on Sunday.

It's interesting you say that - I get the impression that within the paddock and the best journalists (which would be where he would feel the criticism) that they see it a bit differently to us on forums. I mean they haven't been lauding his abilities in racecraft, but I haven't seen the great criticism and that he is virtually useless or very poor in that area as many say he has been on boards.

I recall Legard questioning Brundle about his overtaking for example whilst Seb was coming through the field at Silverstone and Brundle replying 'it's a new one on me' IIRC.

Personally I'm getting the idea that within the sport (as with some posters on boards) that it's acknowledged more than in the public the difficulties of the RB5 and RB6 in dirty air, with the car designed muchly for the clean air which is why it's so good in qualifying and out in clean air (I recall reading a few quotes from some high-ranking team members over the last few months, and also Dennis made mention of it though not specifically RBR too when saying Hamilton and Button should stop moaning as they have a good race car whilst other rivals look to qualifying performance more) so when they see Seb and Webber not getting past it's because of that rather than talent as such in the eyes of many in the paddock perhaps?

For example you highlight Spain (I guess this was when he couldn't get past the Ferrari I think of Massa?), but IIRC from what I read of reports of the race within the specialist press there wasn't much criticism of Seb's abilities, it was more that the Ferrari stifled him as it had good traction and the KERS, which made it very difficult to get an attempt and past in the overtaking opportunities.

That said I agree ith some of the criticism though I think it a bit OTT at times, for example I thought he should have got past Sutil at Silverstone and when he didn't on the first few attempts he got frustrated and lost his head a bit, which has been at the core of a few of the instances of him not getting through the field in the past IMO, but again, I didn't see the same view from the specialist press etc.

Guys .. a quick take on Vettel vs Webber @ Spa

What do you think based on their past experiences on the track?

For me its
Q - Vettel by a tenth or two
Race - Hard to call

It's going to be exciting, because quali is really not as important at Spa. Sebastian will need to set the car up with a good balance for the race.

For me its

Q - Vettel by a few hundredths or three
Race - Hard to call

That's an assertion not backed by history, mate.

Webber is a specialist in driving his teams to bankrupt [Minardi, Jaguar], while Vettel is some kind of King Midas.

I would like to highlight 2008, when the development skills of Webber made RedBull fall through the grid, while Vettel took ToroRosso, the scoundrels of Webber's Minardi and won Monza.


Leave Webber and Horner on their own and the team will do a 2008 again.

I hope Vettel leaves RB e goes to Mercedes, since he is not having fun at RB anymore.

Am going to take a punt and say Seb will convincingly outqualify his team mate causing major WDC pain for Mark as there will be a few cars in between the two Red Bulls given they will not enjoy a performance advantage at Spa.

But that is also not an assertion backed by history / facts either.

I know , being a Vettel fan this season is really frustrating because of all the issues going on but lets not get carried away!

Well, Dieter knows Vettel doesn't like Webber and even though accepted to renew Webber for 2011.

I'm sure Vettel will consider it [make his life unconfortable] when/if extending his contract.

Now I wish Vettel to go to Mercedes, since RedBull is not backing him 100%.
RedBull should be faithfull to Vettel, one of the pillars to F1 future.

How can you call Webber a parasite, when we have many reports of Vettel using Webber's setups this season?

I respect you are a Vettel fan, but that is a very unfair statement.

Its really quite simple. If Vettel is good enough , he will learn from this and improve his race day performances by cutting out stupid errors.
I will like to see him beat Webber on track without any kind of favor which he is perfectly capable of if he puts his thinking head on because he has the natural raw speed.

Don't have anything against RBR except for letting him take the flak for their stupid decisions. I would be mad at them if they screw up with Vettel's head (directly or inadvertently) enough so as to rob us of a RARE F1 talent that Vettel is.

I have heard this before but never believed it.
Why would Webber allow him to use that when they are not on best terms themselves and anyslight advantage will see him lose his only WDC chance?
Could be contractual reasons but still strange.

Is there a link or something?

That's right, Vettel is very premature and that's exactly why he needs mentoring from the pits.

And the pit is backstabbing him over and over.

While Ferrari babysits Massa, ReBull only makes his life miserable.
Horner is mining Vettel and trying to make him feel insecure, misleading him to mistakes - in the eyes of the public - to feel shame.
Still I have to read that Vettel is the #1 driver.
Since when the #1 driver is squeezed by the #2 driver as we saw in Turkey and still has the contract renewed ?

The team shares data. Full stop. They are not allowed to keep practice data to themselves.

At Silverstone it was revealed on the Australian coverage of the GP, in an interview with Webber, that Vettel had used his setup there. At another race early in the year (one of the flyaways, but I can't quite remember which one), Vettel in a qualifying press conference actively credited Webber's setup for his better pace.

Indeed one of the complaints that supposedly got aired between Webber and his engineer and Horner post-Turkey was that Webber and his engineer had actually started suppressing some data, which had contributed to Webber's superior form in the preceding races. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but it did get a run in the press from some of the paddock regulars.

It was China I believe. Seb did say this in the post qualifying PC that his side went the wrong way with setup, that they then went in Mark's direction and ended up beating him to pole.

Your view of reality is the most distorted I have seen. Not sure whether you are actually being serious or taking the mickey.

I doubt Seb has any issues with handling himself at Red Bull. They sponsored him, nurtured him through the ranks, he is their star. I think what Seb does have issues with is handling himself in the public domain... and I think this is where he should start spending a few quid to hire a decent manager to help get a handle on things.

Vettel was gutted after his loss at Hungary,will be interesting to see how he bounces back.

After all the anticipation for this race lets hope its a good one!!

Go Mark!

yep ... wasnt that the quali where horner said ...' where did u get that time in s1 , who needs ride height control eh ' ( he was poor in s1 all session until that final lap )

I have been saying these things myself and I guess people do start to realise that there really is no #1 or #2 ranking as such. And generally - the benefits have really accrued to Webber more than Vettel. Vettel got more LOVE from the team - not anything on the ground. That extra love is why people are angry with him.

Since you are a fellow SV fan ( so rare these days ) I will point out gently that some things you say are too un PC which you may want to tone down/

Vettel has sometimes had to use webbers setup, which rubbishes the argument that webber isnt as good a developer as vettel. But in saying that, when vettel has taken webbers setup, he seems to have beaten him with it.

This could be the most idiotic thing I have ever read on these forums and its either trolling or you really are delusional.

Webber pulled Minardi and Jaguar into points scoring positions when no other driver could. That equaled huge fund boosts for these teams, so to say that Webber drove these teams to bankruptcy is... im lost for words.

Than to say that Vettel somehow developed the Torro Rosso (which was the EXACT same car as the Red bull but with a Ferrari engine) could even be more moronic. The Ferrari engine that year had alot more power and was alot more drivable than the Renault. And with fuel not being an issue there was no use for the more economical Renault engine.

Some other things to remember:

Turkey would have been a Webber win, but for the RBR team instructions;
Webber could have won Melbourne if he'd been left out there as Button was;
Webber could have got more points but for team instructions in Canada;

That would make the performance of the team rather than 6 wins, it would be 8.

As to the speed of the cars in qualifying, its been reported that RBR and Renault have a trick for the engine, that increases horsepower for qualifying. Hence the cars get more qualifying performance, but in the race, they loose quite a bit. So to say the cars are a lot faster, is not so accurate.

Finally the last race held showed that Webber had to drive the car well in order to win the race, otherwise FA's Ferrari would have won the race. That's I think an example of a driver having to win a race. Although it was due to Vettel falling asleep, that is the cost of IMO inexperience from Seb, and nothing else (OK the RBR radio failed too).

Alonso has made lots of mistakes this year; Jenson has been slow lots of times this year; Hamilton has made mistakes too. For people who say the RBR is advantaged by its flex wing, it was that same wing that cost Webber places early in the season, when he crashed into Hamilton - after MW hit the slipstream of a row of three cars as he came around a corner, and then went wide. Most blamed Webber, but in fact the car had an immediate loss of downforce due to the wing popping up in a unique situation for the car.

IMO its not obvious who is the best driver out there. It might even be Kubica.

We'll never know the full story and the genuine fuel loads, for any forum poster to be definitive, with all the facts at hand. So I'll call that race a draw.


In the wet and drying conditions, Webber wasn't quicker than Hamilton, so how would he have beaten Button?


I agree on that one.


Do you mean 6 wins, as he currently has 4 wins?


The RB6 is a rocket-ship and statistically it is the 2nd most reliable car behind Ferrari, there is no getting away from this fact. At Silverstone the RB6 was the only car capable of taking Copse, Maggots and Becketts in 7th gear. Through Turkeys infamous turn 8, they were also as deadly and nobody could live with them. The Brawn last year up until Silverstone, was universally recognised as a rocketship. Yet the RB6 has a bigger qualifying and race advantage at times, than Brawn enjoyed last year. With the car advantage Vettel and Webber have, its an embarrassment the WDC battle is so close.


Considering what Webber did around Hungary in clean air, it puts into question your theory that the Red Bull loses quite a bit in race trim, compared to its qualifying prowess. As for Sebs drive through penalty, it was nothing more than a brain fade.



Rubbish! It had nothing to do with the flexi wing, because Red Bull never had it around Melbourne, it was no more than a brain fade from Webber.

mp is refering to the 2 almost sure team`s wins that were blown away this season by their stupidity.

Couldnt watch FP1 .. although quickly saw the timings on F1 site

Were Webber and Vettel on similar set ups?

No replies .. anyway guess RBRs were having issues - so lets ignore these sessions.

And why so silent on this thread ?? Seb vs Web is the WDC decider guys !

Despite the conditions I think Red Bull were off the pace today. It's very difficult to work out, as both Seb and Mark had problems in FP2 (rear wheel and engine respectively). FP1 was simply too wet to make any sense from.

RB don't seem to have been able to get enough downforce off the car. It is dreadfully slow in S1 and S3.

Hopefully they make an improvement overnight.

I was surprised by thier lack of S2 domination as well which was unexpected ...
But as you say - conditions were nt right to judge.

They were quick in S2, but I think Kubica was often right up there with them. It's just really tough to tell where they really fell, due to the issues they had and the conditions. They also had traffic in the last (quali) run, so didn't improve, but not many did, I don't think they were able to get the tyres up to temperature before the session ended.

Initial impression is that Vettel will continue his dominance of Webber here (on pace, at any rate, the race is anyone's if the conditions remain this changeable).

I hope they are sandbagging.

Also one could have been running the new rear wing and the other the old perhaps in order to evaluate it in the dry, which would further complicate things.

That's unless they decided after FP1 not to run it or do so, I haven't read about that.

My impression though was Webber was the quicker of the two at the end of FP2, as it looked to me Webber was on a decent lap until it fell away in the final sector, which I guess was through I think the HRT holding him up, but SV had clear track as far as I could tell as he was some way behind Webber, so either made a mistake or was off the pace.

In FP1 Seb looked faster, but they seemed to me to be running different set-ups as Webber was quite a bit faster in sector 1 and Seb in 2 from what I saw of the timings, but I could be mistaken I guess.

Interesting analysis, I'm on holiday so have only seen the final times, from which it looked like a Seb whitewash. Either way, it looks like the car is continuing to suck in wet conditions so they better hope it stays dry for quali (some hope!).

According to this site (http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24353:f1-2010-belgium-red-bull-spa-formula-1-friday-report&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157) Sebastian is driving chassis #5 at the moment.

Does anyone know at what point he got the new chassis? I thought it was intended for Webber, as chassis #3 was considered dubious due to being patched up.

*edit* I have answered my own question. Using the same site it would seem that Sebastian used chassis #2 in Hungary, so this is his first race in chassis #5. Will be interesting to see if he goes any quicker in it, as it should be lighter.

Seb running old engine here ..
plus some random odd issues cropping up with explanations about AIRBOX etc ..

Dont know - whats going on ! almost looks like they have given up already

Maybe teething issues to do with installing the new chassis?

Massive risk to run the engine again here. Like you say, quite defeatist.

I didn't catch the whole conversation, but Ant Davidson and Ted Kravitz were basically concluding it (the engine) wasn't much of an issue from what I caught. Weird goigns on with whatever failure occurd though, as Davidson said it sounded hydraulics realted with the way it shuddered to a halt at the end.

Unfortunately I didn't catch the whole of the session on timings either, but it seemed from what I saw that once again Webber was faster through sector 2 than SV, whilst Seb was faster through S1, although Seb' best time was on options at the end, but I caught a bit of Seb's longer run earlier in the session which he did before Webber went out and he looked to be doing faster times through there than Webber was doing on his run - I guess Webber is going with a bit more downforce, which he's done a few times this year in China and Hockenheim no? Although there's track condition to take into account also.

Gonna be a great qualy though, I can't split them, nor them and the McLarens and Ferraris.

So, qually to Mark.

Indeed.

Hmm .. Mark by 4 tenths ... The guy is indeed quick !

plus Vettel is on the dirty side (if there is any at Spa)

Yep, great lap.

Goodness knows what will happen tomorrow though if it's changable as expected with RBR's ideas of strategy....

Great to see Webber doing the qualy business and putting a very nice lap in right behind Sebs effort.

Going to be an interesting race to see how the strategies fold out. There's going to be an element of 'luck of the draw' going on by the looks of it.

I think Hamilton will win it tomorrow. He looks supremely fast in any condition, whether it is dry or changing. Either that or he will have a better run at Webber after Eau Rouge or if the RBRs have a poor start.

Provided the race is dry tomorrow and Webber stays ahead on the first lap, I reckon he's in a good position to win the race. Great that Alonso is so far back. Vettel will be trapped if he gets stuck behind Button.

How accurate is this data? There is a note "Number of engines used (not necessarily the actual engine used for that race) "


About Mark vs. Seb, this really is interesting one. Mark beat Seb him 4 times in a row, than Seb beat Mark 4 times in a row.. So, it was very important for Mark to beat Seb here, because other tracks will probably suit Seb more..

There has been a trend this season for Mark to win at the traditional/classic tracks: Barcelona, Monaco, Silverstone, Hungary. Fingers crossed that he will pick up the wins at Spa, Monza, Brazil and Suzuka.

Looking good this weekend so far, but I'm worried about Hamilton drafting after Eau Rouge and passing at Les Combes.

Maybe Hamilton is due for an ordinary start and will be defending behind instead of attacking in front...?

* weather induced.

How so?

Mark was directly behind on track in exactly the same conditions each time, and Seb has admitted that the car was fast enough but he made driving errors.