somebody just woke up!

Webber's about 11 kilos heavier from memory, 74kgs vs 63.

Exactly the same things Horner said about their late start in '09. They aren't running late, they planned in an extra wee of development time as they feel that extra week is worth more than a few days testing. Especially with testing milage limited ... with reliability and good weather they can make up some of the missed time.
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This makes no sense to me because the test team is different from the engineers working on the cars back in the factory. So if they went to the track with a car why couldn't they keep on developing at home? I am sure some things can only be learned about the car if it's going around a track rather than performing another wind tunnel study. Money can't be a problem either with Red Bull. Am I missing something?

Whats to miss? Delaying the new cars rollout date adds man hours to the development time, allowing them to make up a bit of the defecit they have to the bigger teams like Ferrari and McLaren. No point taking the old car to the first test, they might learn a little something but it's obviously not worth the cost. You're making it sound like the new car was ready and they chose not to go, the point is that it wasn't ready because they've used that extra week to keep designing it. The decision would've been made ages ago I suspect.

Andreas you missed that this is the driver thread, and there is a whole thread dedicated to the Red Bull team over here.

Hm thanks. It doesn't seems that way on occassions, but I have life outside of F1 as well.

Should be another great battle between these two, and we will get to see if Vettel can overtake on track as the rule changes this year eliminating refuelling make passing on track more important. Vettel needs to keep the car on track and crash less, and overtake more. Webber needs to sort out his lacklustre qualifying slump in 2009. I expect this again to be the closest team driver battle for 2010. Let's just hope the RB6 is any good....oil leak on opening day on track....pure Newey!

When did Seb crushed the car last time, and how it compares to others?

Vettel made too many mistakes last season to be WC:

Australia : Crashed
Malaysia: Spun Out
Hungarian: Hit Kimi..Retired
Singapore: Broke Speed Limit in Pitlane, Hit a kurb damaging his diffuser.

Without those mistakes he would have been WC I think? I expect him to be even better in 2010, and Mark will have his hands full keeping pace.

Similar to Jenson, the rule changes on paper help Webber.

Webber was strong vs Vettel when it came to managing high fuel loads, which was fortunate because he needed something to try and overcome the bad Q3's. In Monaco up right before Vettel's crash, his pace on that heavy fuel load had been bad. Some other times Vettel was stuck in traffic and in fuel saving mode. But Webber's high fuel loads were often when he was at his best. In Spain he went very heavy on a track that is hard on tyres, and leapfrogged Massa and Vettel, which no one saw coming. Turkey was another example.

Vettel destroyed Webber in Q3. 17-2 or something crazy like that? With that margin, it's surprising Webber was ever close in points. But as mentioned above the heavy fuel loads compensated for it. At one point Webber was ahead in points. Vettel was alot better in finding the maximum and adapting with the new fuel.

Vettel was often stronger in Q1, going P1 on the harder tyre. Letting him save an extra set of tyres for later on.

Webber and Vettel were very close in Q2. Alot of days Webber was quicker but it was usually a tenth in it.

Webber did more overtakes in the races, in the dry conditions. Similar to Button where he had to make up for worse qualifying positions. Boohoo Kimi fans, do you remember the Sutil incidents?

Unforced crashes.. Webber made a very bad one in Suzuka that didn't even allow him to qualify, but it was in practice. Bad luck but still a crash. Vettel had quite a few in the races, but you would expect these to decrease as he matures.

Horner already mentioned this a few months ago, that this years qualifying rules should help Webber relative to last season. The full race fuel load a that the start of the race also helps, as does the longer stints meaning tyre wear becomes more important. Webber also goes into the season with better preparation and full fitness.

Of course all of this means nothing once the lights go green. If Vettel is as talented as many believes he is, he will adapt to the new rules and push harder in these areas where Webber was stronger last year. He is still very young so you have to expect alot of improvement left in him. It will be another interesting battle throughout the season.

edit - Forgot to mention the weight difference between the drivers but this isn't anything new it's been a part of Webber's driving (and Kubica's) since they entered F1. Maybe the higher fuel loads make it worse, but the weight limit for the cars was raised by 15kg so who knows.

According to Horner the decision was made when they signed both drivers for 2010. Vettel was already signed but you know what I mean.. Around August or something like that.

First the RB6 needs to be competitive, if it isn't who cares where the drivers end up, if it is I see Vettel beating his team mate more often than not and it will be by some margin merely by how the points system is laid out.

Qualifying was really different for Mark last year, there were numerous changes to the rules, like DC it could be not to Marks strengths and thus force him out of racing, in that case he is a flawed driver and will leave as it needs to happen.

But it wouldn't surprise me if he does really well either as the narrow tire may give him the same similar feel as grooved tire on the under steer department.

Australia : Crashed - Horner thinks it was Kubica's error of judgement (and so did I)
Malaysia: Spun Out / I forgot circumstances, and do not have video
Hungarian: Hit Kimi..Retired / as above
Singapore: Broke Speed Limit in Pitlane, Hit a kurb damaging his diffuser. Allegation was, that Seb "crushes" too often. Where did he crushed in Singapore?

I do not want to start this discussion (he did / he didn't) again, however I do note that Seb grew up a lot last year, and the tagging of him crushing too much is highly dubious at best.

Yes, good point. Thanks.

The post you quoted says "made too many mistakes", not "crashing too much". It's a fair comment as the mistakes did cost him dearly last year.

Fair correction, granted. Maybe I am winded by some other posts, but still, I am not sure how anyone can hang the Singapore pitlane incident on him, expecially (and I have tried to get info to the contrary) when they weren't warned prior race about this potentiality.

He cut the corner entering the pits, if he had stayed within the white lines he wouldn't have had a problem. I don't really think the drivers need to be warned, same as they shouldn't need to be warned about not cutting across a chicane. The only real surprise is that more drivers were not caught as it would have been instinctive to try and shorten the corner.

Maybe it's a case of shortest distance between two points is a straight line... ?

Still, checking back, there was more people confused by the penalty, not just me, which tells me it was not so clear cut case as you suggesting.

I think it was merely a case of the time taken between 2 sensors. Seb got to the 2nd sensor earlier than he should have and was therefore deemed to be speeding. I don't think RBR could argue the case, because the case was empirical. Not sure it counts as a mistake though....he didn't exactly do a Rosberg.

It helps immensly if you read the posts before having your freak out.

This year will be all about qualifying and Mark will not be able to make up for his weakness in this area by carrying a heavier fuel load. Vettel pwned him in Quali in 2010 and will pwn him again.

This will be Webber's last season for Red Bull and possibly his last in F1. He does not have what it takes and should move aside and let a younger, better driver have a chance. He's had long enough.

Peopel say the same about Heidfeld but really, who is there? Ricciardo is the only one that sdhows any hint of genuine talent right now. Really, bar guys like Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso .... you'd have Webber and heidfeld in your team before 75% of the grid.

Well these are a bit exaggerated.

Oz- 50/50 with RK
Sepang - deluge
Hungary - did nothing wrong was taken out by Kimi losing his back end
Singapore - speed measuring system was at fault.

There was also Turkey where he let Jenson through with a big front end twitch, not a huge mistake for a 22-year-old.

Many worse 2nd full seasons than that.

Has everyone forgotten about Monaco? Not a bash or anything, but none of you have actually mentioned it!

Ah! Had a vague feeling there was another one

My thoughts exactly. There is nothing to win to rehash full 2009 again, but I think Seb's problems are bit exadurated, just as they were year before, and the year before that. I am more concern how many mistakes, if any, he makes and we do not know about. Considering his lap times, he had improved with every new race, thus what it tells me that he is becoming a force. Monaco was anomaly for some reason.

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Mistakes I am reffering to are of a kind like wrong entry into a turn, being off racing line, braking too soon or too late, inconsistency, and that sort of thing. That's the area where MS can beat you with metronomic precision, and Seb needs to match him and be there every race, if he is to get the covetted WDC. I am not putting any other drivers down, but I can cheer only for so many...

Not an anomaly at all. He makes too many mistakes and will again this year. Horner obviously is going to stick up for his driver after the Australia incident. And if my memory serves correctly - Seb is the one apologizing after the race. He knew it was his fault and admitted it. Case closed.

He will make a lot of mistakes again this year I wager. Unfortunate - it has led to him throwing away chances at a championship. Not a good rep to have.

I agree he made too many mistakes but all he apologise dfor in Australia was for arguing with Kubica over the cprner when his tyres were shot. The actual accident was caused by Kubica, so tired of drivers on the OUTSIDE turning in and apexing the corner as if the guy on the inside is not there. If you're gonna take the outside line you have to stick to it right through the corner, kubica just pretended Vettel was not there.

Erm, forgive my opinion. No mistake. Misplaced apology. That apology was a novice's nerves, not wishing to p##s off BMW an all... He grew balls as time went on...

lol - fanboys must wear special glasses. Pretty obvious who the guilty party was...just so happened to be the one who apologized afterwards. No coincidence i think.

I'm not a Vettel fanboy in any way, but I do think that the Australia incident could have been avoided by both parties. Kubica would have had better chances to overtake than where he tried to. Vettel's in the lead, he's going to take the inside line, I agree Kubica just went around the outside and hoped Vettel would yield.

As for the apology, like BullHead said I think it was more a case of a young guy thinking he was in the wrong rather than a young guy who was definitely in the wrong. Plus BMW were his old employer who gave him his F1 break - notice he was spotted apologising to Thiessen in the Paddock post-race - something entirely un-necessary in normal circumstances.

Can you imagine Schumacher apologising after a 50/50 incident? Can you imagine Schumacher circa-2005 going and apologising to Flavio Briatore for having argy-bargy with Alonso? No, and Vettel wouldnt now either.

I recall Brundle saying Vettel shouldnt be apologising in the post-race Red Button forum on the Beeb too.

Very anti Webber aren't you? Quali last year was alot closer when fuel adjusted. Webber made less mistakes than Vettel last year and if not for a couple of bad races quite often things out of his control he could have been right there at the end fighting for WDC with Button and Vettel. You joking right saying he doesn't have what it takes and I'm sure you will be eating your words as the season goes on. I think it will be very close again between the two.

The only thing Vettel did wrong was to admit a mistake...and drive around with 3 wheels for a little longer than he should have. Had Kubica held the outside line, rather than turning in, he would have had Seb in turn 4, no problem. The move was clumsy and I believe both were at fault to some extent. As for Vettel making mistakes, well everyone does when they're starting out so why there was some opinion stated as if that was some sort of anomaly in F1, I'm not sure.
He's under the spotlight in a top car - I'd suggest some people in here who criticise his skills couldn't stand up in a room with about 5 people in it and make a speech, so cut a guy a bit of slack who's that young, with an extremely expensive car under his bum driving for a global brand in front of a few hundred million people every race.

...anyway - it should be a great season for both of them, and this thread should represent that. Both get on well. So should we.

He's hardly a 'crasher'. I'm sure this year he will be a lot more consistent that 2009.

I think this year will see both drivers performing more consistently than they did in 2009.

Thanks God Vettel is an honest person, not a hypocrite . Nobody needn't teach him morality but it would be usefull to some of his fans.

This thread is already becoming as retarded as the same one from last year. Loads of blaming, excuses, blaming of excuses and attempts to rewrite history. Some of you people are really pitiful.

Its unfortunate that many of the characteristic traits of drivers that make them a good driver make them a bad person, but its how it is. We're long past the gentlemans era, and that weekend Vettel being honest and forgiving got him nowhere.

Well, Webber can always get work as 3rd driver I suppose. Better to retire with a bit of dignity. There are loads of talented young drivers working their way up through GP2 and sweating away in midfield F1 cars who I would much rather see in a Red Bull than Mark Webber.

Well thats your opinion then. To me though, it seems each year GP2 is turning out less and less star drivers. Of those that did shine in GP2, perhaps only Hamilton and Rosberg have kept shining in F1.

Who?

Well, I'd like Bruno Senna to get a chance, for one. Even the most die hard Webber fan has to admit that he's had his chance. He's been driving F1 cars since 2002 and has had 2 wins. Yes, hes not had a lot of luck, but nor has anyone else, really. 2010 is make or break year for Mark. If he can't perform this year, then he needs to make way for someone who can.

Bruno Senna ... you are kidding surely. Just 'cos Webber and heidfeld have been in F1 a long time doesn't mean they have 'had their chance.

How many wins have their team mates scored since they were in F1? For HEidfeld it's just the 1 by Kubica and for Webber it's 4 for Vettel but he's picked up 2 himself and pushed the great new talent on the grid very hard.

They still deserve top to middling drives, so many of the kids have looked hopeless frankly.

I'd be more worried about your driver than what I say about Vettel. He keeps driving the way he does he'll be out of a job next year.

Fanboys are that way. In the last thread got regulary amusing flak when defending both drivers against almost funny accusations. Alfisti is perhaps still angry that Webber lost the team duel last season, but perhaps he gets a bit happier this season. Mark has proven that he can be quick, and this season he could finally prepare himself well.

H2H

How am I angry about Webber finishing second by claiming Vettel was of little fault in an accident with Kubica??? Honestly this place is getting dumber by the ****ing minute.

I know one thing you Sir or Madam need to calm down. You go around calling people stupid and I don't like that and I am sure many other people don't like that either. Have a different opinion, fine, but don't resort to personal attacks so quickly thank you.

What comes to Mark Webber I don't think a rookie will have an easy time taking his seat at Red Bull. Mark is like a man surrounded by boys who are trying to be like him - a professional racing driver in the F1 Championship. That's how I see him. The boys are going to have a really tough time proving they should get Mark's seat at Red Bull.

Mark could get replaced by another experienced F1 race driver who has shown his worth by winning a lot but when it comes to rookies it's going to be hard to convince me they could do a better job for the Red Bull Racing F1 team than Mark and I believe this is true within the team itself. Mark is not a boy he is a grown-up man and many of the race drivers in F1 look like boys who are just learning how to be a professional racing drivers. F1 is not supposed to be a place where you learn how to be a professional racing driver but unfortunately that seems to be the current trend.

It has nothing to do with opinions, I was called a fanboy for defending Vettel then called a Webber fanboy ... i can be only one.

TBH the best thing for RBR this year is that Vettel shades Webber, Webber then admits defeat but drives for anothe ryear or so as Vettel's wingman ......... both parties could do a lot worse.

I foresee this as the way....

I honestly believe RBR has the best line up of all the teams this year. Mark should push Vettel all the way this year, and as long as luck is on his side for a change he might even be able to sneak a small points win over Seb at season end. If Vettel can show the speed he did last year and cut out the errors, though, that's one darn tough ask for Mark. I'll be happy if Mark ends the season less than a win behind Vettel (so max 25 points behind) if Vettel has a stormer, and I firmly believe Mark has that in him.

As for other teams ... Button had a great year last year, and on paper McLaren have the last two WDC's. I still don't rate Button, though. Rubens consistently outperformed Button when their cars were bad, and that was across multiple seasons. Same goes for Button against other team mates in the past. He's great when everything is going well, and loses the plot a bit when things fall away. Vettel = Hamilton, Mark > Button ... in my opinion, of course.

At Merc there's an undisputed great with MS, but he's not going to be at his best until part way through the season, if at all. Still a brilliant driver, put him at the Lewis/Vettel level for now. Rosberg ... again, Mark's ahead.

Alonso and Massa. Now here's a tough one. Looks like Massa's accident last year hasn't left a big dent in his head mentally so far. Alonso at Lewis/Vettel/MS level. Massa if 100% mentally is above Jenson and Rosberg for me. Roughly equal to Mark, but the Aussie in me says Mark can do the job - but only barely. What holds back Ferrari though, is my worry that there's going to end up being disharmony between Massa and Alonso and that's going to affect them on track. Whether that be the two of them pushing too hard against each other, or Ferrari choosing one over the other, there's going to be friction that holds one of them back just that little bit.

Conversely I see Mark and Vettel working very well together, and they know each other well from last year (unlike the other three teams).

Let's just hope the RBR car is competitive on speed, and reliable. I think both Vettel and Webber are capable of taking the title that being the case.