I miss the point?! Vettel, in clear air for 2/3rds of the race and being chased by the faster Ferraris (as Alonso proved when he got to the lead), can't break 2:00 mins. Webber, in the dirty air from Button & Schumi for most of the race, goes nearly 1 second faster? Go figure! No doubt Vettel is up there with the best, but all this premature writing off of Webber is just BS. IMO they are in reality the most evenly matched pair on the grid, as they were last year.

Just out of interest, what lap did Mark set his fastest lap on?

Yes, you really miss the point, and I honestly can't believe you still do. Have you heard anything about the new rules introduced in F1 this year? Something about starting on a full fuel tank and having to manage one set of tyres for more then half of the race.

When Vettel drove his 2:00.218, Mark's best lap until that point was 2:00.785. After that, Vettel's car got damaged and he obviously could not improve his time, while everybody else got quicker and quicker because of the weight loss. Is that so difficult to understand?

Don't worry - I found it. Lap 45




Sorry man - I agree that you can't write Webber off after one race but you're way off on this one...

Yes anyone could have made the error in Q3 but most of them did not, did they?

The pace gap between Mark and Seb in Q1, Q2 and Q3 and Mark's trend towards making errors in Q3 are not mutually exclusive.
I think Mark sees that Seb does have 2-3 tenths on him in Q1/Q2, feels the pressure, tries to overcompensate in his driving and therefore induces the errors.

I guess we will find out as the season goes whether Mark can sort out his qualifying woes, because its not looking too good for him right now the way he is going.

Mate, you need to go back 30 years or so (if you're that old!) when they were doing GPs without refuelling or tyre stops. Nothing new in what they are doing this year, and there is nothing that prevents them from multiple tyre stops, indeed some teams did 2 tyre stops at Bahrain.
So Vettel's car problem prevented him doing a faster race lap than Webber? Stiff! Of the 7 cars that finished in front of Webber only 1 did a faster race lap - Alonso (Oh, he won didn't he!)
BTW, I'm not for either Vettel or Webber, just want to see them recognised for what they produce. Vettel gets pole, everyone goes spastic. Webber sets much faster race lap, no one wants to know.

Who cares who did the faster lap?

You need to deliver when it matters, not randomly during a race.

I didn't claim anywhere that it's the first time these rules were used in F1, did I? Just that for this season, they are new. And ofcourse they can stop more often, but none of the front runners did, so this was the case for Vettel. He could easily drive under 2:00 before he got car problems, but he didn't because there was no need to. All he had to do was to keep a consistent gap to the Ferrari's and conserve his tyres because if he ruined them, he could lose the race.

And yes, it's that simple, his car problems prevented him from doing a faster race lap than Webber. That's why nobody cares about Webber's fastest lap. It's not important. He finished 8th in a car capable of leading the race. Why would anyone care about him making some clean air at the end of the race to try out the real speed of the (obviously very quick) Red Bull car? It doesn't say anything at all.

Is there any reason that Vettel has engine problems and Webber doesn't?

Didn't both of them have engine issues - Sebs obviously more severe - in the race?

It's a sad reflection on F1 when your weekend is over because of blue in qualifying that puts you 6th.

Sick of the pressure bull, as has been mentioned, people make mistakes, trying to get in someones head when you don't know them and work out that it was pressure is just stupid. Did Alonso crack under pressure last Saturday? What about in Germany last year? Doubt it!

Perhaps Mark will dominate Melbourne, and there are 37 overtakes in the top 10 during the race. Mark will be a hero, F1 will rock and people can't go back to the "NO REFUELING AND SLICKS!" fapfest all the rose-tinters had been going on about for 10+ years lol.

Marks was some sort of overfill at the start.
Seb keeps having these issues.

Sounds to me like you trying to deflect attention off your driver's deficiencies.

you want to talk about mediocrity. Heidfeld isn't as quick as either just more consistent.

He has had a few, but I don't see how these days driver's can do much to directly cause engine issues - possibly kerb hopping, but would be surprised if that damaged the engine per se.

IF he was doing something the team would have been onto it a while ago...

Once again we are talking about one race so far, your getting waay ahead of yourself. One mistake is all he made at a critical time. Sh#$ happens move on. Was Seb overdriving last year when he made his self inflicted stuffups? By your reasoning then maybe he should have got the boot? Its a loong season and you should keep your criticisms for the end of the year when there are solid facts to make a judgement.

Oh great.

Some people are already starting the "Vettel is a car breaker" crap we heard about Kimi in 2005.

Yes, he is sooo fast only because he is so tough on his machinery, and doesn't have the brains to control his pace in order to finish the race. He CLEARLY caused the failing spark plug!!

Oh and Mark had a better race due to his faster race lap!!!

Mark (with others) seems to be a / the 'weavemeister', so 'Doing a Webber' would fit.
(said somewhat tongue in cheek before knickers get twisted.....)

Can you be more specific to which issues unique to Sebastian are reffering to, please?

The only way Vettel could have stopped Alonso, Massa and Lewis from passing him would have to be by repeatedly weaving down the straight and for that he would have got black flagged

Kimi set plenty of fast laps in 2008, unfortunately many of them meant very little after his race had already been ruined due to poor qualifying.

Comparing Webber's fastest lap achieved whilst Vettel was running round on 7 cylinders is scraping the barrel a bit methinks

It's not "only one race", mistakes at qualifying has become a trend since last season for him.

alonso did too. he must be sh*te aswell then

Right...

Have you bothered to read the drivers mentioning that it was impossible to overtake unless the car on front made a mistake?

There is no way Alonso would have gotten by Vettel who had the race in his pocket until the spark plug failure. Considering the fact that the Red Bull was probably the fastest car during both race and qualifying trim, it would have taken something extraordinary from Alonso to actually pass Vettel even if he would have been able to close in enough.

The biggest difference between both drivers has been so far been Q3. Over the arc of the last season Seb was better in almost every one of them. If this trend continues it will be very, very hard for Mark to shake off the second driver status the media and many fans have attached to him. Hopefully the Seb will not get hit as much by mechanical troubles as last season. Mark can prove his worth in Australia. The team needs both drivers scoring big points.

H2H

He only had one mechanical DNF right?

yeah one failure I count and less than Mark. Most of Sebs non-points scoring races last year was either slow car or driver error. Mark's main problems last year were q3 and that run of 5 races where he didn't score due to things out of his control. As you have mentioned before Loud Mark gave Seb a real run for his money up until those non scoring races. I think Mark drove quite well in 2009, he just needs to fix up Q3 quali now.

Here is the actual comparison between both guys in 2009. Notes for significant events in drivers race. I count 1 mech failure for Seb, plus 3 crashes of own doing. Webber has multiple mechanical failures and various other issues out of his control. I think Mark was the more consistent racer in 09, but needed better qualifying and certainly more luck. See for yourself below.

-----------------------------------

2009 - Vettel vs Webber.

Australia - Vettel-.DNF. Crash into Kubica.
Webber- DNF. Taken out by Barichello

Malaysia - Vettel-.DNF. Spun off in rain.
Webber- 6th. Unlucky not to finish higher due to race being called off with heavy rain.

China - Vettel - 1st.
Webber- 2nd.

Bahrain - Vettel - 2nd.
Webber- 11th. Started from 18th due to being blocked by Sutil in quali Q1

Spain - Vettel - 4th.
Webber- 3rd

Monaco - Vettel - DNF. Crash into barriers
Webber- 4th

Turkey - Vettel - 3rd.
Webber- 2nd

Britain - Vettel - 1st.
Webber- 2nd

Germany - Vettel - 2st.
Webber- 1st. Wins easily even with drive thru penalty.

Hungary - Vettel - DNF. Suspension failure. Possible caused by earlier rearending collision with Raikkonen
Webber- 3rd

Europe - Vettel - 4th.
Webber- 8th

Belgium - Vettel - 3rd.
Webber- 9th. Was on for 3rd before drive thru penalty for unsafe pit release.

Italy - Vettel - 8th
Webber- DNF. Arguably punted out by Kubica

Singapore -Vettel - 4th.
Webber- DNF. Brake failure

Japan - Vettel - 1st.
Webber- 17th. 2 x pitstop for headrest problems. 1 x pitstop for puncture

Brazil - Vettel - 4th.
Webber- 1st

Abu Dhabi-Vettel - 1st. Dominating win
Webber- 2nd

Reads like a "shopping list of excuses", if you ask me.

You have obviously missed the bit about Vettel only running on 7 cylinders. I'm sure if you asked the drivers they would all say its possible to overtake a car that is down on power.

No one was asking you.

He wasn't saying Alonso couldn't pass Vettel after his engine went a bit sour...

Your kidding right? So you are saying it was Mark's fault he had brake failure, was released by his pit crew into the path of another car etc? You are not doing yourself any favours by making such ignorant statements. I list the facts and you reply with utter rubbish. Seriously why do you even bother posting here?

Very unique, and self serving interpretation of history.

What's so wrong with it?

We have to take into account that 4 of the top drivers and at least 2 of the top constructors were sidelined in 2009. That said, the constructors RBR and GPB/Mer have shown in 2010 they are still in the game. I think Vettel has shown that as well. Some of the other drivers have fallen to their pre-2009 situations with the return of 3 drivers and 2 constructors. True it is only 1 race - way too early to make conclusions, but in terms of that race alone, that is what happened. Mark and Jensen in the middle of the pack with others that are familiar there - Nico and Vettel on a steady rise above them - the 3 of 4 that had been in front, are once again, with the 4th having left the sport. That may or may not remain the same. The real change I think is Vettel's rise becuase it is dynamic, much like the speed demons before him, he drives with a certain abandonment - fitting with his 'no plan B' style (per his own admission). It is risky, sure, but a hell of a lot more interesting to watch than the rest, including his teammate, at least for me. Hence it is true Vettel will have more crashes and squirmishes, but the rewards can (and generally will) be greater too and the 'living it' part of the equation will be absolutely incomparable - just ask him. It isn't the only road to a championship, and not the best one for many, but for some, it is the only way.

A while back I wrote that comparing Webber and Vettel isn't really fair - and I still feel that way because they are two different types of drivers. But even the drivers themselves make the comparison, so I didn't mean to say it shouldn't be made, it just doesn't seem all that realistic to me. Sure, they have simliar equipment, but they approach the whole thing distinctly, imo.

You mean blinkered facts?

Your "excuses" for Australia, Italy, Belgium, Singapore and Japan are pathetic.
Go back and watch those races... Mark either made crucial mistakes or was simply too slow relative to his team mate.

Please avoid discussing each other or personalising the argument. This is about Vettel v Webber.

Oh really? Care to elaborate on that? I pointed out the facts regarding what happened. How is that self serving. Back up your argument with some logic and valid points then.

Come on Jez

Although some of the comments about SV are a bit unfair...to suggest Mark is in some way responsible for the break failure is like blaming SV for his engine trouble in the last race.
The lolly pop incidents were also in no way Marks fault....just as if they had happened to SV they would not be his fault.

On track incidents can often to some extent be attributed to both (or all) drivers involved.
Even incidents caused by a bad qualifying putting you in amongst the mid field chaos.

The stretch of non scoring races that saw SV regain the lead over MW however where almost all ruined by incidents OUT of his control, unless you plan to blame him for vehicle manufacture and lollipop men who need to find another profession.

None of this changes the fact that SV hammered Mark in Q and was the victor in any head to head analysis that can be done for the 09 season.
But dont try (as you often have) to suggest SV out paced MW in the races (as the stats DO NOT back you up)
and dont try to suggest that stretch of 5 races was some how the fault of MW loosing his cool.
Because you know this is just not true

The only blinkered facts are those that your put forth. Actually come to think of it I don't know even u have ever presented any facts, more like nonsense most of the time

So being hit from behind in Australia by Barichello is Marks fault is it?. Italy you could argue was Kubica's fault as he was behind Mark, Either way highly unlucky to be punted out. Belgium he was driving very well and def a chance at some big points before the unsafe pit release made by his pit crew. Again NOT Mark's doing. How is Singapore Marks fault when the bloody brakes fail??! Japan yes he made a mistake in practice and missed quali but he still had a chance at some points from the back of the grid with the fastest car, yet has some ridiculous problems like a headrest twice and a puncture.

Seb was fast yes and got some great results last year but the facts state he made more mistakes than Mark. In races where they both did not have issues there was not alot between them.

If someone makes a mistake and is at fault all from thier OWN doing I will acknowledge that like Mark in practice in Japan. Why don't you point out where and elaborate on how he has made some crucial mistakes as you put it. He was disappointing in quali last year but his racing i can't see alot wrong with at all.

Vettel is fast and takes risks but Mark also takes risks especially with some of the passing he has done in the past. Why doesn't Vettel pull many great passing moves ? The main problem for Mark is quali. WHen they both start near each other usually they are pretty even. Can't wait to see how the year pans out.

But why? Because that used to be his great area of strength. Is it the car or has he changed?

Well its nice to see some valid points and a well thought out argument. I agree Mark got hammered in quali and really needs to lift in this area. Theres a potential large number of points gone begging during those 5 races and a real shot at WDC, just such a shame it happened to Mark like that but thats life. Its just very annoying when people blame Mark for all those problems that were out of his control. Lord help the other guys if he actually does have a run of good luck!!

gowebber
Most of Seb's non-points scoring races last year was either slow car or driver error.
MiPe
I have counted two errors assignable to Seb, and even those are debatable since they do contain technical component which has not be assessed.

gowebber
I count 1 mech failure for Seb, plus 3 crashes of own doing.
MiPe
There are no 3 crushes of Seb's own doing. Horner disputes that.

gowebber
I think Mark was the more consistent racer in 09.
MiPe
Castrol rating graph suggests otherwise.
2009 - Vettel v Webber, Vettel wins.

gowebber
Australia - Vettel-.DNF. Crash into Kubica.
Webber- DNF. Taken out by Barichello
MiPe
Australia was a racing accident. Horner's position is clear about that, and so is mine. I would assign 70% responsibility to Kubica. Vettel's responsibility - he didn't back off and yield, but then, he is on the track to race, not to play games.

I am tired of continuing this argument of 2009. Open your eyes and review the season again, rather than plagiarizing what other posters had written. As your screen name suggests, you are Webber's fan which is fine with me, but your assessment of Seb's 2009 season sucks, since contains inaccuracies thus making it look worse than it actually was.

Hard to tell really unless you can get inside his head, but the pressure of having such a great teammate must be a factor. I'm sure he can lift his game tho this year in quali.

Yeah. Bring Castrol into it. That'll show'm.

Interesting to see in last week's Autosport not one of the 14 pundits canvassed reckoned Webber would win the intra team rivalry at RedBull

Looks like Mark's stock is at an all time low

Mark was always a qualifying specialist. Two things marked a change last year; a new team-mate in the very highly rated Vettel, and the introduction of slicks.
The tires was said to be the explanation behind his sometimes below-par q-laps, but they all came in Q3, or atleast that´s when he was more often than not shown the way.
I was thinking - and I got help from guys in the know reaching this conclusion - that his "problems" got amplified when the car carried race-fuel, as they did in ´09.
With this in mind I automatically thought that Webber will look better vis a vis Vettel in Q3 this year, and I´m not prepared to accept that this theory is wrong based on Bahrain, one qualifying session only.

...roll on Melbourne!

The previous poster was critcising Vettel for not being able to retain the lead whilst running round on 7 cylinders

You need to re-read some of the posts