Out of interest what did you pick Vettel for?

Sanjiro I don't think it's a co-incidence that over Webber's 16 year racing career he's never won a championship. I think he has shown that he doesn't have the ability to perform consistently at the highest level, like the best drivers can. He reminds me very much of Montoya, but even more unpredictable.

You may well be right.
I suspect this will be the last year he has in F1 to prove you wrong (if he muffs this year he will not get another top drive)

But dont use "Webber's 16 year racing career" as a detractor from his talent when during that time he has only ever been in a championship winning F1 car for ONE of those years and his team mate didnt win the championship in the same car.

Many of you seam to think ANYONE defending MW is making excuses for him and that NO comparison can be made between him and SV
If this were true you would have all the MW fans defending his bad Q3 in Bahrain and I have not seen any Webber fans doing this.

SV beat MW in 09 but to suggest he dominated him is to misrepresent the facts.
He smashed him in Q that is undeniable but even WDC points dont indicate the trouncing some claim.
If SV had dominated MW he would have scored 30-40 points more than Mark (at least 2 for every race he "dominated" him in)
The reason he didnt is he was out raced by mark who made his OWN job harder by some very substandard qualifying.

As a fan I can look at the final points difference and see that had only 2-3 of the events in races that were in NO WAY marks fault (such as lolly pop man and break failure ) not happened then the points would have been very close indeed.
SV did NOT have the same number of non points scoring races caused by things TOTALY (as in NOT DRIVER RELATED IN ANY WAY) out of his control, although he had a similar number of non points scoring races.
If they had finished all races without incident I think SV would still have beaten Mark due to MWs crappy Q3s

This does not change the results of 09 or take away from SV in any way.
It just gives me some hope for 2010
Bahrain Q3 however has dented that hope, now I ( and other MW fans) have to cross our fingers and hope that was an isolated error and he has a handle on things from now on.

If we see a Q3 stuff up from MW in OZ I suspect all hope is lost

P.S. 09 qualifying was not SV dominating MW one of the best qualifiers on the grid, it was SV dominating MW a great qualifier who was not coming to grips with something(may even bee the pressure that Jez likes to blame)
We know this because MWs stuff ups always came in one or two sectors of Q3 where he had set faster sector times in the earlier runs. Something we have not seen from Mark in previous years.

Hopefully Mark will rise to the challenge this year and be able to finish well in more races than last year. It would be an incredible story if Mark did win WDC especially against such classy opposition but he will have his work cut out for him doing that. He has the ability to do it but will definetely need to up his game esp in quali.

I agree Mark has only really had one decent car and that was last year. He did quite a good job in races with the RB5 considering what happened throughout the course of the year as we have discussed. Looking back now Mark may well have won a championship with Renault but chose to go to Williams instead against Flavio Briatores advice as they were seemingly on the up. I just hope he does really well this year but if he does get beaten narrowly by Seb then there is no shame in that as Seb is one of the most talented drivers F1 has had in a few years. Go Mark in 2010 ;)

I only tipped Marks race on a different forum. I have tipped RBR and Ferrari to lock out the front four spots in Aus though, and I tipped Mark for 4th/4th

Thanks again Sanjiro for putting my thoughts into words

Although if he stuffs up Q3 in Oz I won't think that all hope is lost for him (it would be only the 2nd race out of 19, plenty of time to turn it around - guess I'm an optimist ) but agree that it wouldn't look good.

Even so, I think Mark is in the group of above average drivers - whereas Vettel is headed for being among the elite. You really have to do something more that just endure, have valid excuses for numerous years and complain a lot to be among the elite. You don't need a WDC, but you do need to have 'it'.

True
(you didnt need the side swipe "complain a lot" he does it no more than any other driver)

Back at the start of 05...the same was said about MW that is now said about SV.
SV now has the car that Mark thought he was getting in 05 but didnt.
Its all in his court now

Yeah but Mark was being outshined at the time. We have yet to see if that will be true with Vettel, or if he will be able to hold his own now that the other big 2 teams are not running mule sleds. I disagree about the complaining though; I stand by my earlier assertion that Mark complains too frequently and too nastily - especially with regard to other drivers.

I generally agree with your sentiments, but when you look at all of the most successful F1 drivers and champions, almost all of them have won a karting title, or Formula Ford, F3000, GP2 etc.

Not being a particular fan of either - its appears that Vettel will further increase his dominance over Webber this year.

What strikes me is the fact that Seb seems to be generally considered to be the better driver, at least here in Europe. In pretty much every preview of the season (every IIRC) in quite some countries Seb was considered to have higher chances to aim at the WDC. Last year Mark was not that much behind his points, both had a lot more troubles than the Brawn pilots, but still Mark was in the shadow of Seb. And in the end Seb won the "best driver" voting of the teams.

So is this all just bias?


Personally I think that Seb has the greater potential, but so far everything is still possible. We have just to look at the GP in Bahrain were problems with the car cost Seb the victory and were a sloppy pit-stop cost Mark a position.


H2H

I struggle to quantify the logic used in defense of Webber, regarding his battle with his team mate. What was Webber' reputation based on? It was his qualifying prowess. His alleged mega ability to extract the maximum out of a car on one lap. Well in this department against Vettel, he is getting his @rse handed to him on a plate. Vettel has absolutely destroyed him in the qualifying stakes during 2009 and Bahrain 2010, was just a continuance of the story in 2009. Despite this fact, I'm told "It's only the first race of the season" Only if you want to start history from Bahrain 2010. When will the penny drop? It reminds me of the Kovalainen fans who made up excuse after excuse, in their attempt to explain away Hamilton destroying him on the track come race day. Now their can be no hiding behind ("faster fuel adjusted") debates, Webber has to put up, or his fans shut up. The excuses handbook is all but used up.

Kovalainen hardly ever matched LH on track let alone beating him or leading him in the points.
Your comparison is as flawed as your assessment of MW fans.

Just consider this.
If you rate MW so poorly then you must not think much of SV.
Because beating a sub par driver is no achievement at all

Wow quite a bitter and sarcastic post here. We'll he must have some ability seeing as he is still in F1. His reputation is based on the facts he has beaten almost all his teammates over the years and some quite comfortably and has never been thrashed when beaten. Was known as an excellent qualifier until recently but inconsistent during races but now the opposite. Also he can actually perform some great passing manouevers and his race craft has improved alot. On his day has the ability to thrash the opposition as was seen in Germany when winning easily even with a drive through penalty. Usually quite strong in wet conditions as seen in Japan 2007 and Malaysia 2009 for example. Hard working, professional and a good team player. Have you ever entertained the thought that Webber has a chance at beating Seb?? Maybe not as great as Seb beating Mark, but still a fair chance so I wouldn't be getting too cocky at this stage. Bring on Melbourne..

Considering we're talking about (Or at least least the Webber detractors) are talking about qualifying "smashings", I thought including the Q2 comparison times from 2009 might provide a little perspective here, that the 9-8 to Vettel in Q2 (And razor thin margins) in comparison to the 15-2 Q3 "floggings" be put a bit more in perspective:

Australia 2009
Vettel 1.25.121 (1)
Webber 1.25.241 (0)

Malaysia 2009
Vettel 1.34.276(1)
Webber 1.34.222 (1)

China 2009
Vettel 1.35.130 (2)
Webber 1.35.173 (1)

Bahrain 2009
Vettel 1.32.474 (3)
Webber N/A (1)

Spain 2009
Vettel 1.20.220 (3)
Webber 1.20.007 (2)

Monaco 2009
Vettel 1.14.879 (3)
Webber 1.14.825 (3)

Turkey 2009
Vettel 1.27.016 (4)
Webber 1.27.416 (3)

Britian 2009
Vettel 1.18.119 (5)
Webber 1.18.209 (3)

Germany 2009
Vettel 1.39.504 (5)
Webber 1.38.038 (4)

Hungary 2009
Vettel 1.20.604 (5)
Webber 1.20.358 (5)

Europe 2009
Vettel 1.38.273 (6)
Webber 1.38.625 (5)

Belgium 2009
Vettel 1.44.592 (7)
Webber 1.44.924 (5)

Italy 2009
Vettel 1.23.545 (7)
Webber 1.23.273 (6)

Singapore 2009
Vettel 1.46.362 (7)
Webber 1.46.328 (7)

Japan 2009
Vettel 1.30.341 (8)
Webber N/A (7)

Brazil 2009
Vettel N/A (8)
Webber 1.20.803 (8)

Abu Dhabi
Vettel 1.39.984 (9)
Webber 1.40.272 (8)

Considering 2 of those were write offs for Webber (One through being blocked and one through driver error) and 1 was a write off for Vettel (Didn't get the lap at the right time in Brazil), that looks a bit more even. Considering they'll be running on low fuel simulations this year, I'd say Webber is in with a chance. Had he not stuffed sector 2 in Bahrin in Q3 he'd have probably only been about 2 tenths off of Seb. Although he did, I think it's only relevant if it becomes a pattern throughout the season.

I think this summarises the problem for him was the Q3 single lap runs with high fuel and slick tyres (For whatever reason). Looks a bit better than "Was thoroughly smashed by Seb" although no doubt, Seb did beat him last year and thoroughly outdid him in Q3. Anyone however that thinks Marks couldn't perform at all with high fuel on board should look at his race performances from 09 as well as his qualifying from 08 and beforehand.

Q2 times are to all intents and purposes irrelevant as long as it is good enough to get to Q3. In the same way as all a driver needs in Q1 is to do a time that will see him into Q2.

They are no advantages to being P1 in Q2 over P10. They both do the job required. Getting to Q3. And having tyres in sufficient quantity to do the very best job you can in Q3. Q3 results are the only ones that amount to anything tangible, ie where you start the race. A low top ten Q2 is worth more to a driver that a P1 in Q2 that took two sets of tyres to achieve, if in scraping through Q2 in P9 gives him an extra set of tyres to maximise his opportunities in Q3.

So if Mark had hypothetically beaten Seb 17-0 in Q2 I am sure Seb would not have cared a rats bum, as long as he can see that he dominated the important money shot part of qualifying 15-2.

So tell me Mr TRE, what was Vettel's most crucial "qualifying stakes" in 2009?

My thoughts, Brazil I believe, he was still in the title race. So what happened there?

So I trust that your response will not contain anything similar in nature to what you describe with your most eloquent words:


My thoughts are far less eloquent:
Shit Happens.

Sorry but last year that wasn't really the case, Q2 was pretty damn intense as no one was guaranteed on any day to get into Q3, taking into account the closeness of the field last year. I'd say in terms of outlining outright pace, Q2 is a pretty fair reference point. I am however using Q2 as an example of the driver's pace and the fact pacewise Mark was closer to Seb than Q3 may have indicated, not as too who beat who last year which I specifically stated was Seb beating Mark.

You can't just look at the stats though, multiple times Seb only set 1 run to get to Q3 while Mark did 2. Seb was generally outclassing in qualifying vs Webber in the race.

Agreed. Just look at early 09 where Brawn/Button were seemingly nowhere in Q2 yet bagged pole in the end.

So many words, so many growing pages. Vettel will be tough to beat this season. Webber is fighting a hard battle and got off to an awful start in the first race.

It's sad when arguing about drivers on forums is more entertaining then the races themselves. Two weeks of big talk and foreplay and then a big disfunction problem during the actual events.

Agree, but Q1, Q2 and Q3 all mean alot more then testing times. And look how much they were over analysed during the winter. You can see trends in Q1 or or Q2, like if a driver is struggling with balances or making mistakes or if they are confident and posting good times. It's not the be all and end all, but it's more useful then practice times and more useful then testing times. Q3 is the best guage though, no doubt about that. It is "crunch time".

Thats 2010 for you.

I fully expect EVERY race to be as dull as a Monaco or Hungary of past years.

Q1,2 and 3 is all we will have.

Makes Marks piss poor from in Q 2009 even more of a worry
This is why I think he should dedicate a chunk of his practice runs exclusively to Q runs.
If he does not sort it out..there will be no fight back in the race as he was able to do in 09.

You could set a car up this year with ONLY Q in mind...stuff the damn race
If you get off well and hold for the first lap you can be 1s slower than the guys behind and they will only get past if you make a mistake

Webber's performance is promising as I hope Kimi will return to F1 with Red Bull in 2011.

? what the same KR that was getting his ass handed to him by FM....hmm

I have to agree with the essence of your statement. Although you do put it in a rather acerbic way! No doubt brought on by some frustration you feel at the creativity fans employ in arguing the opposite. You can make a case for almost any proposition if you use a mixture of observation and statistics; observation when it suits you "look my guy is in front", and statistics when the evidence seems to be going against you "well he only finished 1 sec behind". While ignoring what went into that 1 second difference . . . was he slowing down from a 30 sec lead on the last lap? Was he driving on a flat tire? etc.

Yes, I agree with you: Vettel is better, but allow the Webber supporters a dignified retreat. Webber is no "chopped liver" . . . he did win twice last year quite convincingly. I know you agree.



In your defense of Webber, I feel that you are being overly dismissive of HK. And the comparison between the two is not necessarily flawed. Both HK and MW are railing against drivers who are a class above. It just so happens that HK came up against an incumbent who is IMO the best complete package of driver and mental toughness in the field today (I concede that there are other plausible points of view on this). MW, on the other hand, is mentally tough and had much better team support. In terms of speed, I don't believe him to be superior to HK. GP is a cruel environment, HK may never get the opportunity to shine again.

I don't believe that "Edge" is saying that Webber is a sub par driver . . . I'd venture to say that he would agree that MW is above average.

But he was referring to Seb's dominance over Mark's alleged strength in qualifying not generally the race performances.

Monaco is never boring Although, it may be this year because the drivers will be conserving their tyres and not trying Sigh.

His latest moan has been about young drivers having it easy, he includes Lewis and Vettel


I would say for the most part you'd have to be quite poor not to make Q3 in the RB last year, so you dont overly risk the car too much in Q2, Q3 is where it really counts it can make or break a season

I think someone at RedBull needs to give Webber a slap He went out in a kart yesterday (on his twitter) without a rib protector (he put one on sharpish after though from what I hear with friends in Oz ). A friend of mine did that once and broke his rib and that's season ending material I can tell ya!!! Not smart Mr Webber not smart at all lololol

haha, lucky though webber's an f1 driver unlike your mate ;)

You clearly don't know much about karting then. it breaks the best of them http://www.girlstalksports.com/Motor-Sport...t-200612121860/. Actually someone like Webber due to his weight loss program would be at a high risk he's learnt his lesson

If he's that fragile he should avoid all daredevil sports, including F1. I think you underestimate Webber - as they were underestimating Jensen (or we didn't get the whole story).

What's a rib protector got to do with crashing?

Also Eff1NZ I'm not a strong Webber supporter but to rate Heikki at or above his level is crazy.

That depends on what you're racing ;) my 'friend' would slaughter Webber in a kart as I am sure Webber would return the favour in an F1 car. BTW you do not to crash to break a rib. Trust me on that one! Without a rib protector you can break ribs very easily and that was essentially my point! Wasn't anything to do with crash. Webber has even acknowledged his ribs are hurting!

Anyway my first comment was in jest.. jeezz guys!

I think you are underestimating karting.

haha okay i need sleep, night

I wouldn't say that's crazy. Considering Webber's vast years of experience he was terrible in 2009 when we actually put things into perspective. He had the best car all-round on the grid. Heikki was unfortunate to come up against one this generations best drivers which made him look worse than he was.

If we look at Bahrain for example current WDC Button put in a performance many would have expected from Heikki up against Lewis.

Webber has two things going for him - personality and experience. His experience is extremely valuable as it over rides his relative lack of talent.

What? You can apply the inverse - Heikki had 3 more years experience than Lewis. Brawn clearly had the edge for a big part of the year and Vettel is surely one of this generations best drivers.

Heikki in his years in a championship material car @ McLaren managed 3 podiums including a freak win when Lewis and Felipe retired. Webber in 1 year scored 8 podiums with 2 wins and was leading the championship at half time ...

Heikki didn't have 3 more years of experience. That Mclaren was no where near as dominant in 2008 as the RedBull was in 2009. And Webber never led the championship!

Webber had a MASSIVE chance at the championship in 2009. He had a wealth of experience, unlike Vettel, and he failed at even becoming a contender.

I like Webber... but you can't help but think he's nothing more than a safe pair of hands. He has experience, which is valuable, and a funny personality.

He had the testing role @ Renault before the testing ban, the Red Bull was not dominant until the end of the championship, and I meant against his teammate.

I agree in that Webber equates to a safe pair of hands but on his day, Webber will be fastest in every practice, land pole and win the race. On his day Kovalainen will be top 6 in practice, qualify on the second row and luck into a victory when the guys in front of him retire.

Not once was the 2008 McLaren as dominant as the RedBull was at times in 2009. Webber had 1 good Grand Prix the Nurb where the RedBull was just untouchable. Brazil coulda been Hamilton's or Vettel's if they didn't gamble. Put Heikki and Webber in the same team and I doubt you'd see a big gap, if at all, between them. That's all I'm saying

Webber's poor Bahrain race only goes to compound the issue

Some of the stuff you are saying is just utter rubbish. Yeah Webber was terrible in 2009 was he? Arguably outraced his teammate and led Seb midway through the year. Lost points in 5 races due to factors outside his control and finished 4th. Oh what a terrible year.

Poor race? He was stuck behind Schumacher and Button for the majority of the race. Lots of drivers complained of not being able to overtake due to the wake of the new diffusers and dirty air. Have you even read this thread at all? If you had you would not be making such stupid comments.

poor race? almost everyone had the same poor race.

Webber has raced with a fractured rib before in 2005, so it's not a season ending injury at all...

He didn't lead the WDC at any point!

finishing 4th in the best car scoring only 20 more than a car that was 2 seconds off the pace in melbourne is what I call a bad year. For him to finish 5th would've meant he finished behind Lewis Hamilton and his dog awful car. So 4th is as bad as you could really place that RedBull... something several other drivers could've done with ease

For a man with many years of experience and reputation he failed on all but a few counts. He's a great number 2... nothing more nothing less. That's the brutal truth.

That's the thing though - "on his day" does not happen anywhere near frequent enough for Mark.

The comparison between Mark and Heikki is pointless (generally and in the context of this thread) since they have not sat in the same car, but I agree with your opinion that Mark is probably the better driver.

I doubt it very much that Mark is merely a number 2. He certainly has enough talent, enough experience and he certainly has the mentality to be the lead driver, bearing in mind the lead driver is not necessarily the faster driver, just the better one.

The problem right though is that Seb is taking him out to the high seas and drowning him, because fundmantally Seb has around 1-2 tenths on him on tap in qualifying and Mark is trying desperately to match this, consequently making errors of disastrous proportions, when really what he should be doing is going back to the basics of his first half 2009 driving - being the steady, consistent, reliable performer - making no mistakes, making every qualifying count, every race count, and picking up the pieces when Seb makes his mistakes. And it really is a question of when and not if Seb makes mistakes because he is essentially a driver born from the risk taking mould.

Mark needs to go sort his head out because right now he is in a very confused place. You see a glimpse of all of this when you read what he said post-qualifying in Bahrain.