Hypnotise
Sep 5 2010, 17:17
Astroturf should be banned,it's very dangerous atleast besides a kerb especially in the wet.
I think it has alot to do with Tomizawas death today
if not for that little stripe of astroturf maybe Shoya could have saved it.Its not only in bike racing its dangerous also in F1
Maybe this thread start doesn't make alot of sense but I think it's something to discuss.
It would be more dangerous to have riders running wide then rejoining the racing line at full speed.
Chubby_Deuce
Sep 5 2010, 17:22
Come on.
Ross Stonefeld
Sep 5 2010, 17:23
He was killed by getting hit by the other riders. He could have crashed on the kerb, a wet track, a spot of oil, or just by overriding.
QUOTE (Hypnotise @ Sep 5 2010, 18:17)
Astroturf should be banned,it's very dangerous atleast besides a kerb especially in the wet.
I think it has alot to do with Tomizawas death today
if not for that little stripe of astroturf maybe Shoya could have saved it.Its not only in bike racing its dangerous also in F1
Maybe this thread start doesn't make alot of sense but I think it's something to discuss.
I suppose wet grass is more wet than wet astroturf
Astroturf is there to help cars/bikes stay on track. Nothing could have saved Tomizawa. There is noone, nothing to blame for today's accident. This things just happen.
You need to have a limit to the track and Astroturf is better than grass.
Motorsport is dangerous, sad but true.
hulmerist
Sep 5 2010, 17:38
the actual accident itself could've happened at any track
noikeee
Sep 5 2010, 18:58
QUOTE (Hypnotise @ Sep 5 2010, 18:17)
Astroturf should be banned,it's very dangerous atleast besides a kerb especially in the wet.
I think it has alot to do with Tomizawas death today
if not for that little stripe of astroturf maybe Shoya could have saved it.Its not only in bike racing its dangerous also in F1
Maybe this thread start doesn't make alot of sense but I think it's something to discuss.
Why is it dangerous?
wewantourdarbyback
Sep 5 2010, 19:10
QUOTE (paranoik0 @ Sep 5 2010, 19:58)
Why is it dangerous?
I think he's claiming because it's slippery. Which surely goes for white lines, grass, wet track, painted pit lanes etc and we're not going to ban those.
For anyone who hasn't read it, David Emmett (of Motomatters.com) interviewed Nicky Hayden on this subject
here. The only thing that's clear, I think, is that the as-old-as-racing-itself debate over track safety is far from settled.
QUOTE
Q. Going back to the Tomizawa crash, other riders have criticised the artificial grass beyond the kerbs. Would you like to see it abolished or replaced by gravel?
NH: I wouldn't want gravel out there. I think it's better than gravel.
Q. What's it like to be on, is it slippery?
NH: It depends, some of it is different, but it's not that slippery. It's a lot grippier than grass. But if it was grass, people would be more scared of it. They wouldn't go across it.
Q. That's what other riders have said, that people are not sufficiently scared of going over it...
NH: The astroturf? Yeah, especially 125cc and Moto2 guys. On those tyres and those bikes, they go across it leaned over.
I don't want to point that out with this incident. I said two or three years ago when they started adding pavements and run-offs... we've got that corner at Le Mans that's just a bit of a joke because they've got all that pavement out there so people just use it, use it, use it. If it was grass out there, people wouldn't be overshooting and going straight. It's like Monza World Superbikes, going straight at all the chicanes. I don't like that stuff.
Q. Is it the same with paved run-off?
NH: There have been times when I've used it and thought it saved me a little bit. But there have been times when it's too much. Over there in Turn 4 here, you've seen some guys who've saved themselves, so... I think they've got too carried away. A bit is good, but maybe not to the extent it is now.
Q. It's been suggested that most of these run-off areas are put in for cars not bikes...
NH: I know some riders who think that pavement is safer. They swear that they can get out there and use the brakes. I don't agree with it, for the most part.
simplyfast
Sep 5 2010, 19:11
the one problem with knee jerk reactions like this is that people dont tend to stop and think.
Yes another death in racing only a week after the last death is a tragedy but lets look at the common demoninators.
two riders came of their bikes ( only one involved astroturf)
BUT both involved the rider being hit by following bikes.
So surely you should be asking for only one bike out on track as its following bikes that is the common denominator not astorturf.
One advantage of using Astroturf versus grass is that if a rider or driver goes beyond the curb, they don't make the racing line slippery by dragging dirt and stones onto the track.
Paved runoffs are simply an invitation for guys to ignore the limits of the track. Why brake and drop down a couple gears when you can simply feather the throttle and swing ten feet beyond the curb?
johnmhinds
Sep 6 2010, 04:05
As others have said he was killed by the bikes hitting him, not by the astroturf.
The accident could have happened on any corner of any racetrack to any rider.
He was just the unlucky one who it happened to.
Andromeda
Sep 6 2010, 06:18
If they could come up with a better alternative then id be for removing it but the Astroturf is there for a reason.
Astroturf may have been the trigger that killed Tomizawa but in the end nothing could be done Astroturf would be a whole lot safer than grass.
Jimisgod
Sep 6 2010, 07:19
Well, having astroturf there, on that particular corner, was ridiculous.
QUOTE (johnmhinds @ Sep 6 2010, 07:05)
As others have said he was killed by the bikes hitting him, not by the astroturf.
The accident could have happened on any corner of any racetrack to any rider.
He was just the unlucky one who it happened to.
People, please let's stop playing dumb. The question isn't what killed Tomi but what made him fall. And is it safe to have astroturf in such a corner or would smth else be safer.
QUOTE
Jambo - You need to have a limit to the track and Astroturf is better than grass.
That's the opinion that Martin Brundle expressed during coverage of the Belgian GP.
Clatter
Sep 6 2010, 07:53
Having now seen a video of the crash I don't believe the astroturf was to blame for this accident. Riders have fallen in similar positions without even leaving the tarmac it was simply unfortunate that he fell into the path of the other riders. To me what would be of greater concern was the actions of the track workers who seemed more concerned about getting him off of the track than his immediate medical well being.
Ross Stonefeld
Sep 6 2010, 08:16
QUOTE (Zmeej @ Sep 6 2010, 08:39)
That's the opinion that Martin Brundle expressed during coverage of the Belgian GP.
Car racing is a different kettle of fish. Astroturf just gives them a wider racing line. Grass doesnt. They still need paved runoff for safety, but there should be say 10feet of grass and 10 feet of gravel after that before they get to the runoff. That way it still looks like a proper racetrack, and there's a genuine penalty for running wide.
noikeee
Sep 6 2010, 08:39
QUOTE (Clatter @ Sep 6 2010, 08:53)
To me what would be of greater concern was the actions of the track workers who seemed more concerned about getting him off of the track than his immediate medical well being.
+1
I'm not blaming the track workers though, they obviously were afraid of getting run over. The issue was that the race direction didn't bring out the red flag...
Unfortunately I can't see what could've been done to avoid the accident itself.. these things can happen at any moment in bike racing. Unless they ban blind corners and crests?
slideways
Sep 6 2010, 08:52
I don't know enough about the dynamics of bike runoffs to make a judgement, but if there is any chance that the astro was responsible for pitching him onto the line, that specific corner should be looked at.
Ross Stonefeld
Sep 6 2010, 08:59
Sorry but no. If you're going to ride outside what is the effective race track, you take the consequences. Which in this case meant falling over. Subsequent injuries caused by following riders are not related to what caused the fall, only the fall itself.
sportzgal82
Sep 6 2010, 09:22
Here is Casey's take on it...he wasnt very happy...maybe its because he was emotional like everyone else and his statements may of been rash but its a good discussion point......
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/motogp/s...f-1225914666219If you agree or not with him is somewhat irrelvent as discussion can lead to improving safety........we hope
johnmhinds
Sep 6 2010, 14:54
QUOTE (Dolph @ Sep 6 2010, 08:28)
People, please let's stop playing dumb. The question isn't what killed Tomi but what made him fall. And is it safe to have astroturf in such a corner or would smth else be safer.
What made him fall is irrelevant if every other material grass, gravel etc.. would still have made him fall by running wide.
He wasn't killed by the astroturf.
He
was killed by being run over twice after he had his accident.
Sure the astroturf made him fall, just as grass or gravel would have done, but it was not the falling of his bike that killed him.
This is one of those compromise situations where everybody has their own opinion. What makes it more difficult is what is good for bikes is not necessarily good for cars and vice versa.
I think there has to be something beyond the kerbs on corners with tarmac runoff, especially when kerbs are so flat these days. If not drivers/riders wouldn't stay within the white lines, as much as you tell them to in the meetings beforehand etc, they are all trying to find an extra tenth. Therefore until they think of something better than Astroturf, it has to stay.
Louis Siefert
Sep 6 2010, 17:27
QUOTE (Ross Stonefeld @ Sep 6 2010, 01:16)
Car racing is a different kettle of fish. Astroturf just gives them a wider racing line. Grass doesnt. They still need paved runoff for safety, but there should be say 10feet of grass and 10 feet of gravel after that before they get to the runoff. That way it still looks like a proper racetrack, and there's a genuine penalty for running wide.
brilliant...
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