Good morning to all,
could anybody help me in finding informations about the Bosch direct fuel injection used in 1964/65 F1 Ferrari?
I read that was the same used in Mercedes' 300SL but don't know more.
Many thanks to all in advance,
Gab

this may seem obvious - but have you asked Bosch? They are still in existence and no doubt are proud of their competition successes.

I didn't think about it, I will try this way then, thanks.

My first thought is, "No way!"...

Why? Because the 300SL's system was already over a decade old, it's unlikely that there hadn't been sufficient advances made over that decade to preclude a road-car system being in F1. F1, of course, is at the vanguard of automotive development.

But I'd temper that with the thought that one can't always be right. So where do we look for some evidence either way?

First, a thread on the Technical Forum here will get to a range of members who might well have taken more note than most. Then I'd be looking for Denis Jenkinson's notes on the cars the first time the 158 turned out with fuel injection. Later in the year, there might well have been some advertising by contributors to Ferrari's success and that might give some clues.

My gut feeling is that Magneti Marelli would have been involved...

According to Tanner Bosch was used from 1960 through to 1965 on various cars including the ones enquired about.Lucas takes over in 1966 right through until 1974.

I believe that Ferrari used the same type of Bosch high-pressure, multi-plunger injection pump/metering unit as did Daimler-Benz and, of course, Vanwall. The pump used in the 300SL would, of course, have been different from the 158 due to the difference in the number of cylinders. Ferrari and D-B both injected their fuel directly into the combustion chambers while Vanwall fed it into the inlet ports.

Whether there was any carry-over in such things as the timing of the injection and positioning of the injectors is another matter. Vandervell certainly made good use of his contacts and friends at Daimler-Benz. It is perhaps relevant that the first Ferrari injection engine - the 1963 V6 - was developed by Michael May who had worked for the German company.

Ray bell:
On page 35 of the book "Mauro Forghieri, 30 anni di Ferrari e oltre" is written:
"We were using a Bosch pump made several years before for their (Mercedes) SL coupè, the famous 'seagull-wings'-doors car".
I could be wrong but that's what I read.
By the way I am sure that LUCAS injection was used for the first time in Ferrari's 1.5 180° V12.

Was, then, the Bosch injection on the 8-cyl 300SLR and M196 engines the same as that on the 300SL?

There is, of course, more to fuel injection than the pump. There are systems for cold starting and for altitude compensation etc. Any of these might have been configured differently, or replaced or, indeed, eliminated, for a racing application.

Or, even more likely, have seen developments in the decade since the release of the 300SL or for the purpose of experimentation on the F1 engines.

From "The Complete History of Grand Prix Motor Racing" by Cimarosti:

"...Ferrari's 120 degree V6 motor was also equipped with fuel injection this year (1963), a Bosch system adapted by the Swiss Engineer Michael May. Bosch, May and Ferrari had been brought together on this project by German motoring journalist Günther Molter, who later became public relations manager for Daimler-Benz. The Bosch system injected the fuel directly into the combustion chamber, a method similar to that used by Mercedes-Benz in the W196 in 1954-55, and boosted Ferrari power to 205bhp at 10,200 rpm..."

Vince H.

Hi Gabriele,
The attached article from 24 January 1964 issue of AUTOCAR seems to indicate that the first appearance of Ferrari's flat 12 cylinder engine was with "two six-plunger Bosch fuel injection pumps"- not LUCAS.
Hope this helps your research...
Kevin

I think that the flat 12 used Bosch injection in '64 but changed to Lucas in '65.

I think it was basically the same although the SL and SLR systems had altitude compensation systems. I don't think that any of the engines had automatic cold start adjustment.

I am posting on behalf of Cedric Selzer


I would have answered this sooner but I'm been unable to log on to the forum for a few days. The answer to your question is no. The injection pumps are not the same. On the 300 SL the mixture was controlled by a depression in the inlet manifold. A pipe was led to the back of the injection pump where it controlled a pigskin diaphragm. This in turn controlled the mixture by adjusting the rack in the pump. If you look at a photograph of a Cooper Borgward which had a similar system you will see a long trunk extending to the front of the car. This fed the inlet manifold. The mixture was adjusted by fitting different jets just behind the ventury on the inlet manifold. As far as I can remember the first time fuel injected Ferrari 158 appeared at the Syracuse Grand Prix on April 12th 1964. This was V8 engine car. This engine had throttle slides and eight trumpets. In this configuration it is impossible to have a similar type of injection pump like 300 SL as there is virtually no depression in the inlet manifold. In 1963 the Mercedes-Benz 230SL was launched. This had an injection pump that was controlled by a governor at the back of the pump. I am 99% certain this was the type of pump fitted to the Ferrari. On this type of pump the adjustments were carried out with little screws on the governor. These altered springs and subsequently adjusted the bob weights. Both these systems work on low pressure fuel pumps. All that the pumps had to do was to keep the galleries in the injection pumps filled with fuel and both systems. I hope this helps.

Cedric Selzer

Here's some more historical information which details the early use of fuel injection by Ferrari.
The attached excerpt is from an article on "The engines of engineer Ferrari" by Griffith Borgeson and appeared in Autocar in 1972.

Thanks to you all for great help!

Gab

I was interested in Borgeson's statement that: "The design of his (Jano's) vee-8 engine was so perfect that between the 1955 version (ie the Lancia) and the World Championship winner of 1964, only such details as port contours and valve seat angles needed modification."

This is the first I have heard of such a close relationship between the two engines. Can anybody add more?