velgajski1
Jan 19 2011, 12:54
Okay, so Lewis Hamilton beat 2 WDC teammates in his career, and had a 4 season streak of beating teammates.
So, the conditions are:
1. Beat 2 WDC teammates
2. Has had a 4 season long streak of beating teammates
My question is - who is the last driver who managed to do it?
noikeee
Jan 19 2011, 12:59
If we're counting yet-to-be-crowned WDCs then that would probably be... Nick Heidfeld (vs Villeneuve and Raikkonen) and David Coulthard (vs Hakkinen and Raikkonen).
If we're not then Alain Prost maybe? (vs Rosberg, Lauda, Senna)
Massa

he managed to get Kimi & Villeneuve in (one of) their weakest season ('08 and '05, well not sure about '05 being Villeneuve's worst one)
hotstickyslick
Jan 19 2011, 13:04
QUOTE (paranoik0 @ Jan 19 2011, 12:59)

If we're counting yet-to-be-crowned WDCs then that would probably be... Nick Heidfeld (vs Villeneuve and Raikkonen) and David Coulthard (vs Hakkinen and Raikkonen).
If we're not then Alain Prost maybe? (vs Rosberg, Lauda, Senna)
Add Hill to Prost's tally.
marcoferrari
Jan 19 2011, 13:04
QUOTE (velgajski1 @ Jan 19 2011, 13:54)

Okay, so Lewis Hamilton beat 2 WDC teammates in his career, and had a 4 season streak of beating teammates.
My question is - who is the last driver who managed to do it?
In Formula One history (1950-2010) there are only 3 world champions, who was never beaten in standings by their teammates... And Hamilton is one of them... Second is Vettel and guess, who is the third...
Crafty
Jan 19 2011, 14:07
Depends what you mean by "beat" ? fastest lap ? race win ? finished in the WDC higher ?
Szoelloe
Jan 19 2011, 14:12
Hamilton is one of the finest on the grid, I agree. But he is a 1xWDC. In his non-WDC seasons, I don't really care who he beats, or who beats him with a few points, not an info to rely on really, IMHO.
marcoferrari
Jan 19 2011, 14:12
QUOTE (Crafty @ Jan 19 2011, 15:07)

Depends what you mean by "beat" ? fastest lap ? race win ? finished in the WDC higher ?
Exactly that...

Hamilton and Vettel didn t loose to their team mates yet and there is also one driver, who will remain as unbeaten, but the fact is he ran some seasons without teammate...
CSquared
Jan 19 2011, 17:15
QUOTE (hotstickyslick @ Jan 19 2011, 05:04)

Add Hill to Prost's tally.
And Mansell.
F1Newbie
Jan 19 2011, 17:27
I was about to say Michael Schumacher
Amphicar
Jan 19 2011, 18:53
QUOTE (hotstickyslick @ Jan 19 2011, 13:04)

Add Hill to Prost's tally.
But when Hill and Prost were team-mates at Williams in 1993, Damon had not been champion - in fact it was to all intents and purposes his rookie year and he raced under team orders. The point the OP was making was that Lewis Hamilton beat team-mates who had already been champion - Alonso in 2007 and Button last season.
Lets see his rookie season was great, that he was a rookie made it seem supreme. He was only going to get better right ? But he hasn't completed a season fully as good as his first. To his fans he "destroyed" Alonso but last I checked they were tied. Then he had Kovalinen, who some are impressed with in Lotus but when he had a McLaren he didn't impress much. Now he has Button, who many would agree is above average but a notch below.
Button kept up with Hammy pretty well if you ask me considering it was a new environment and car and its clearly Lewis' team. And if you're unbiased, Lewis and Fernando were equally good in '07 and still are. "Beating" your teammate should be pretty clear. If Alonso and Piquet Jr. finish on the same amount of points but Alonso wins on the tiebreaker, does that mean he "beat" Piquet ? Technically sure but thats not very clear cut to me. Based on the old points system, even beating your teammate by 20 pts isn't enough as so many things happen during the season, things could have gone either way.
Point is, Lewis is damn fine racer but outpointing your teammate doesn't amount too much. So such a stat is meaningless, especially if theres no WDC attached to it IMO.
velgajski1
Jan 19 2011, 20:44
Okay, I don't mind 'yet to be crowned' champions so they count in, but another condition was that this driver has 4 seasons in a row without losing to teammate.
So, Coulthard, Heidfeld, Massa and Hill are out if my calculations are right. Anyone from older ones?
Mackarel
Jan 19 2011, 21:04
QUOTE (Nesto @ Jan 19 2011, 14:18)

Lets see his rookie season was great, that he was a rookie made it seem supreme. He was only going to get better right ? But he hasn't completed a season fully as good as his first. To his fans he "destroyed" Alonso but last I checked they were tied. Then he had Kovalinen, who some are impressed with in Lotus but when he had a McLaren he didn't impress much. Now he has Button, who many would agree is above average but a notch below.
Button kept up with Hammy pretty well if you ask me considering it was a new environment and car and its clearly Lewis' team. And if you're unbiased, Lewis and Fernando were equally good in '07 and still are. "Beating" your teammate should be pretty clear. If Alonso and Piquet Jr. finish on the same amount of points but Alonso wins on the tiebreaker, does that mean he "beat" Piquet ? Technically sure but thats not very clear cut to me. Based on the old points system, even beating your teammate by 20 pts isn't enough as so many things happen during the season, things could have gone either way.
Point is, Lewis is damn fine racer but outpointing your teammate doesn't amount too much. So such a stat is meaningless, especially if theres no WDC attached to it IMO.
Point is, he beat Alonso in 2007, even with all the bad luck at the end of season. Alonso couldn't even capitalize on that. Had it not been for the bad luck Alonso would have been comprehensively beaten. They never tied on performance, so Alonso was third. That's how the system works.
I wont comment on Button and the Maclaren is Lewis' team arguement. That's just a bunch of excuses. Ferrari is Massa's team and Alonso settled in perfectly.
Lewis not only beat 2 champions, he beat 2
reigning champions in the same car.
Who else has beaten 2 reigning champions?
Gareth
Jan 19 2011, 21:13
This is starting to remind me of cricket records. Best 3rd wicket partnership by English batsmen that started on a Tuesday in Sydney when it was overcast and one of the bowlers was called "Kevin".
ForeverF1
Jan 19 2011, 21:27
That must have been Lamb and Botham surely?
Raelene
Jan 19 2011, 21:32
QUOTE (marcoferrari @ Jan 19 2011, 05:04)

In Formula One history (1950-2010) there are only 3 world champions, who was never beaten in standings by their teammates... And Hamilton is one of them... Second is Vettel and guess, who is the third...

Ascari?
marcoferrari
Jan 19 2011, 22:24
QUOTE (Mila @ Jan 19 2011, 23:09)

Ascari?
No...

He was beaten by Hawthorn in that year, where Alberto scored only 1 point, because of mechanical retirements...
ensign14
Jan 19 2011, 22:28
Technically Ascari was beaten by his Maserati team-mates in 1954. James Hunt only had permanent team-mates for 3 seasons of his career and beat them every time (Mass twice and Tambay).
marcoferrari
Jan 19 2011, 22:30
QUOTE (ensign14 @ Jan 19 2011, 23:28)

Technically Ascari was beaten by his Maserati team-mates in 1954. James Hunt only had permanent team-mates for 3 seasons of his career and beat them every time (Mass twice and Tambay).
This is the right answer...

And he had also teammates in March, so 4 seasons...
QUOTE (velgajski1 @ Jan 19 2011, 22:44)

Okay, I don't mind 'yet to be crowned' champions so they count in, but another condition was that this driver has 4 seasons in a row without losing to teammate.
So, Coulthard, Heidfeld, Massa and Hill are out if my calculations are right. Anyone from older ones?
Hill is not out. He beat his teammates 1994, 95, 96, 97, 98 - that's 5 years in a row.
Heidfeld beat his teammates 3 years in a row in 2000-2002 and 4 years in a row 2004-2007. I count 2005 here as he led teammate Webber 28-24 in points and had 3 podiums to Webbers 1 before his season ending crash. He did 5 races less than Webber.
Please actually check some statistics before you post.
QUOTE (Nesto @ Jan 19 2011, 21:18)

Then he had Kovalinen, who some are impressed with in Lotus but when he had a McLaren he didn't impress much.
Kovalinen didn't impess much? He sucked ass!
In 2008 he was beaten in points 98-53, wins 5-1, podiums 10-3, finished 7th (yes, 7th!!), when his teammate was world champion.
In 2009 he was 12th, when Hamilton was 5th. He lost in points 49-22, wins 2-0, podiums 4-0
scheivlak
Jan 20 2011, 00:07
QUOTE (marcoferrari @ Jan 19 2011, 23:30)

This is the right answer...

And he had also teammates in March, so 4 seasons...
He never had teammates at March, as he was never part of the March team!
He drove Marches for Lord Hesketh's team.
robefc
Jan 20 2011, 00:24
QUOTE (Nesto @ Jan 19 2011, 19:18)

Lets see his rookie season was great, that he was a rookie made it seem supreme. He was only going to get better right ? But he hasn't completed a season fully as good as his first. To his fans he "destroyed" Alonso but last I checked they were tied. Then he had Kovalinen, who some are impressed with in Lotus but when he had a McLaren he didn't impress much. Now he has Button, who many would agree is above average but a notch below.
Button kept up with Hammy pretty well if you ask me considering it was a new environment and car and its clearly Lewis' team. And if you're unbiased, Lewis and Fernando were equally good in '07 and still are. "Beating" your teammate should be pretty clear. If Alonso and Piquet Jr. finish on the same amount of points but Alonso wins on the tiebreaker, does that mean he "beat" Piquet ? Technically sure but thats not very clear cut to me. Based on the old points system, even beating your teammate by 20 pts isn't enough as so many things happen during the season, things could have gone either way.
Point is, Lewis is damn fine racer but outpointing your teammate doesn't amount too much. So such a stat is meaningless, especially if theres no WDC attached to it IMO.
I'd say the teammate battle is pretty darn important to drivers and considered very significant by most people within F1 circles.
And no lewis and alonso didn't tie in the WDC, they scored the same amount of points yes but one finished above the other in the WDC.
Myrvold
Jan 20 2011, 01:08
V's first season: 2nd place, had a chance to win the champ when going into the last race, didn't do it.
LH's first season: 2nd place, had a chance to win the champ when going into the last race, didn't do it.
JV's secons season: 1st place, won the champ in the last race under remarkable situations, when Schumacher(German) drove into him, trying to take him out.
LH's second season: 1st place, won the champ in the last race under remarkable situations, when he overtook Glock(German) in the last turn
JV's third season: 5th place. After some big rulechanges (narrower cars, grooved tyres etc.) Williams was not longer the best car. He finished 5th, best of the rest (behind the two teams that was best, clearly best), and one point ahead of the guy in 6th place (the World champion from two years earlier)
LH's third season. 5th plave. After some big rulechanges (wings, tyres etc.) McLaren was not longer among the fastest cars. He finished 5th, best of the rest (behind the two teams that was clearly best that season) and one point ahead of the guy in 6th place (the World champion from two years earlier)
After that you cannot compare them anymore. I guess noone (except me maybe) will say that JV had (and has) the same qualities as Hamilton...
velgajski1
Jan 20 2011, 06:59
QUOTE (Dolph @ Jan 20 2011, 00:50)

Hill is not out. He beat his teammates 1994, 95, 96, 97, 98 - that's 5 years in a row.
Heidfeld beat his teammates 3 years in a row in 2000-2002 and 4 years in a row 2004-2007. I count 2005 here as he led teammate Webber 28-24 in points and had 3 podiums to Webbers 1 before his season ending crash. He did 5 races less than Webber.
Please actually check some statistics before you post.
Well, by beating I mean finishing higher in standings so Heidfelds 2005. cannot be counted.
But you're right about Hill, I completely disregarded he raced after Williams, my apologies

So, the answer is Hill, thanks!
PayasYouRace
Jan 20 2011, 08:42
QUOTE (velgajski1 @ Jan 20 2011, 07:59)

Well, by beating I mean finishing higher in standings so Heidfelds 2005. cannot be counted.
But you're right about Hill, I completely disregarded he raced after Williams, my apologies

So, the answer is Hill, thanks!
I suppose Hill also beat 3 WDCs: Senna, Mansell and Villeneuve. But that's a bit unfair because Senna DNF'd from in front of Hill in their 3 races together. He did have Mansell's measure in their 4 races together though.
marcoferrari
Jan 20 2011, 10:03
QUOTE (scheivlak @ Jan 20 2011, 01:07)

He never had teammates at March, as he was never part of the March team!
He drove Marches for Lord Hesketh's team.
On website f1stats is written that in year 1973 there were 3 cars listed as "March" with Hunt, Jarier, Beuttler and Purley as drivers... Hesketh is listed only from 1974... I am much younger, so I don t know the details of that era, I just wrote what is this website saying...
Amphicar
Jan 20 2011, 11:37
QUOTE (Myrvold @ Jan 20 2011, 01:08)

V's first season: 2nd place, had a chance to win the champ when going into the last race, didn't do it.
LH's first season: 2nd place, had a chance to win the champ when going into the last race, didn't do it.
JV's secons season: 1st place, won the champ in the last race under remarkable situations, when Schumacher(German) drove into him, trying to take him out.
LH's second season: 1st place, won the champ in the last race under remarkable situations, when he overtook Glock(German) in the last turn
JV's third season: 5th place. After some big rulechanges (narrower cars, grooved tyres etc.) Williams was not longer the best car. He finished 5th, best of the rest (behind the two teams that was best, clearly best), and one point ahead of the guy in 6th place (the World champion from two years earlier)
LH's third season. 5th plave. After some big rulechanges (wings, tyres etc.) McLaren was not longer among the fastest cars. He finished 5th, best of the rest (behind the two teams that was clearly best that season) and one point ahead of the guy in 6th place (the World champion from two years earlier)
After that you cannot compare them anymore. I guess noone (except me maybe) will say that JV had (and has) the same qualities as Hamilton...
Well, you can compare them:
JV's fourth season: 21st place with zero points and highest finish was 8th place
LH's fourth season: 4th place with 240 points and highest finish was 1st (three times)
Perhaps a little unfair to JV as the 1999 BAR was an unreliable dog of a car - but I think the other comparisons flatter JV - he was up against Damon Hill in his first season and beat him to 5th place in his third season, whilst LH had 'Nando and then Kimi. I like Damon but he clearly wasn't in the same league as FA or KR.
marcoferrari
Jan 20 2011, 12:35
QUOTE (Amphicar @ Jan 20 2011, 12:37)

Well, you can compare them:
JV's fourth season: 21st place with zero points and highest finish was 8th place
LH's fourth season: 4th place with 240 points and highest finish was 1st (three times)
Perhaps a little unfair to JV as the 1999 BAR was an unreliable dog of a car - but I think the other comparisons flatter JV - he was up against Damon Hill in his first season and beat him to 5th place in his third season, whilst LH had 'Nando and then Kimi. I like Damon but he clearly wasn't in the same league as FA or KR.
That is true, but comparing to Räikkonen, Damon s stats are in many aspects better (more wins, more laps and kms in the lead and so on)... And not to forget he was soooo close to give Arrows their first historical win and he was the one who gave a first win to Jordan... My opinion is that Hill is a very underrated driver...
Amphicar
Jan 20 2011, 13:16
QUOTE (marcoferrari @ Jan 20 2011, 12:35)

That is true, but comparing to Räikkonen, Damon s stats are in many aspects better (more wins, more laps and kms in the lead and so on)... And not to forget he was soooo close to give Arrows their first historical win and he was the one who gave a first win to Jordan... My opinion is that Hill is a very underrated driver...
I agree that Damon is underrated - I was a a great fan of him and his father Graham (still the only driver to have won WDC, the Indy 500 and the Le Mans 24 hrs). Damon was quick but not a natural talent like Clark, Senna, Schumacher (M), Alonso or Hamilton. Damon had to work at it and he wasn't a great racer in terms of overtaking. I think he was hampered by his late arrival in F1 (33 when he got his break with Williams) and the fact that he didn't have an early grounding in karts - he was already 21 when he began racing motorbikes. That almost win for Arrows in Hungary was one of the greatest near-misses in sport. I remember watching the race on TV literally with my fingers crossed and willing the car not to let him down. Alas it was not to be.
marcoferrari
Jan 20 2011, 14:28
QUOTE (Amphicar @ Jan 20 2011, 14:16)

I agree that Damon is underrated - I was a a great fan of him and his father Graham (still the only driver to have won WDC, the Indy 500 and the Le Mans 24 hrs). Damon was quick but not a natural talent like Clark, Senna, Schumacher (M), Alonso or Hamilton. Damon had to work at it and he wasn't a great racer in terms of overtaking. I think he was hampered by his late arrival in F1 (33 when he got his break with Williams) and the fact that he didn't have an early grounding in karts - he was already 21 when he began racing motorbikes. That almost win for Arrows in Hungary was one of the greatest near-misses in sport. I remember watching the race on TV literally with my fingers crossed and willing the car not to let him down. Alas it was not to be.
Definitely can agree with this!
But I don t think it is a serious problem, when a driver is not "gifted from God" in terms of talent, if he is working hard on himself to improve... Felipe Massa also belongs to this category... Not so talented as Räikkonen, but his results in Ferrari were year after year better taking also some advices from Michael Schumacher... Who would think he could be a match to a high rated Kimi Räikkonen? It was a pretty nice achievement for Felipe... Damon was also improving, coming closer to Prost in second half of 1993, then he beat Coulthard and later champion Villeneuve, destroyed Diniz in 1997 with some surprising performances in a poor Arrows and again showed great results in battle with much younger Ralf Schumacher... So looking how late Damon started in Formula One, how old he was and still how he improved is a nice achievement... I think his only real bad year was 1999, when he probably definitely lost motivation...
fabr68
Jan 20 2011, 16:31
Reality is that nobody remembers who beat who in the standings after losing a WDC. One hundred years from now, a guy holding one WDC trophy will seem irrelevant compared to someone who managed to win seven.
Number of WDCs is King in Formula 1.
ViMaMo
Jan 20 2011, 16:34
I think Lewis is the greatest F1 driver ever. So lets all worship Lewis. Does this need to be in bold? Font size okay?
velgajski1
Jan 20 2011, 18:36
QUOTE (fabr68 @ Jan 20 2011, 17:31)

Reality is that nobody remembers who beat who in the standings after losing a WDC. One hundred years from now, a guy holding one WDC trophy will seem irrelevant compared to someone who managed to win seven.
Number of WDCs is King in Formula 1.
You're definitely wrong, otherwise Senna would have no chance of being even in top 3 best of all times. And lets remember that Jim Clark is also always very high on those lists.
Number of WDC's is important, but not only thing that people count as you can see.
ensign14
Jan 20 2011, 19:03
QUOTE (marcoferrari @ Jan 20 2011, 10:03)

On website f1stats is written that in year 1973 there were 3 cars listed as "March" with Hunt, Jarier, Beuttler and Purley as drivers... Hesketh is listed only from 1974... I am much younger, so I don t know the details of that era, I just wrote what is this website saying...
Yeah, that's back in the days when someone could buy a car from someone else and race it under their own team. Jarier was the official March team (March Grand Prix) driver in 1973 (replaced by Roger Williamson, tragically, for two races), Beuttler's team was Clarke-Guthrie-Mordaunt-Durlacher Racing or something like that (a bunch of stockbrokers), Purley's was Lec Refrigeration Racing (his dad's fridge company) and Hunt's was Hesketh Racing, who only entered a second driver on a handful of occasions in 1975 and 1976.
marcoferrari
Jan 20 2011, 19:33
QUOTE (velgajski1 @ Jan 20 2011, 19:36)

You're definitely wrong, otherwise Senna would have no chance of being even in top 3 best of all times. And lets remember that Jim Clark is also always very high on those lists.
Number of WDC's is important, but not only thing that people count as you can see.
I also think, people don t care that much about who was a champion and how many times...
I never saw a best drivers ranking according to official statistics, which looks like this:
01. Schumacher
02. Fangio
03. Prost
04. Brabham
05. Stewart
06. Lauda
07. Piquet
08. Senna
09. Ascari
10. Clark
11. G Hill
12. Fittipaldi
13. Häkkinen
14. Alonso
15. Farina
16. Hawthorn
17. P Hill
18. Surtees
19. Hulme
20. Rindt
Clark, Senna and Ascari too much down the order with even no Moss being there as he is officially no champion... Don t think it is very representative...
I was very satisfied with results of my own Formula One analysis using race data from f1stats, which showed best Formula One drivers in this order:
01. Schumacher
02. Senna
03. Fangio
04. Clark
05. Ascari
06. Moss
07. Stewart
08. Prost
09. Brabham
10. G Hill
11. Lauda
12. Andretti
13. Piquet
14. Mansell
15. Häkkinen
16. Alonso
17. Hamilton
18. Vettel
19. P Hill
20. Ickx
QUOTE (paranoik0 @ Jan 19 2011, 05:59)

...If we're not then Alain Prost maybe? (vs Rosberg, Lauda, Senna)
Let's see....
Considering only teammates who were past/current/future WDC, Prost beat:
1985 - Lauda (current and past WDC)
1986 - Rosberg (past WDC)
1988 - Senna (future WDC)*
1989 - Senna (current WDC)
1990 - Mansell (future WDC)
1993 - Hill (future WDC)
* Counting all 16 races
olliek88
Jan 20 2011, 20:20
Well, alonso has never been outscored by a teamate................just saying
And also i think im right in saying (althou im not 100%) that prost has outscored every team mate based on the entire seasons results, even senna couldn't out score alain over the whole season. (again, im not totally sure abou that so feel free to correct me if im wrong, just im sure i heard/read it somewhere)
ensign14
Jan 20 2011, 20:27
Prost had more points than Senna in 1988 but had to drop some because only the best 11 (I think) scores counted.
But Prost was outscored 6-5 by Watson in 1980.
marcoferrari
Jan 20 2011, 20:45
QUOTE (olliek88 @ Jan 20 2011, 21:20)

Well, alonso has never been outscored by a teamate................just saying
And also i think im right in saying (althou im not 100%) that prost has outscored every team mate based on the entire seasons results, even senna couldn't out score alain over the whole season. (again, im not totally sure abou that so feel free to correct me if im wrong, just im sure i heard/read it somewhere)
Trulli was ahead of Alonso at the time when he was fired by Briatore after Monza... (46 to 45 points)...
olliek88
Jan 20 2011, 20:51
QUOTE (marcoferrari @ Jan 20 2011, 20:45)

Trulli was ahead Alonso when he was fired by Briatore after Monza... (46 to 45 points)...

I meant over the whole season, which i think you knew
CSquared
Jan 20 2011, 22:21
QUOTE (ensign14 @ Jan 20 2011, 12:27)

Prost had more points than Senna in 1988 but had to drop some because only the best 11 (I think) scores counted.
But Prost was outscored 6-5 by Watson in 1980.
He was also outscored by Lauda in 1984, by 0.5 points.
armchair expert
Jan 21 2011, 02:09
QUOTE (CSquared @ Jan 20 2011, 15:21)

He was also outscored by Lauda in 1984, by 0.5 points.
Ironically, had the Monaco GP run full distance and Prost finished second to Senna, he would have scored 6 points, not the 4.5 he got for winning a rain-shortened race and thus beaten Lauda to the Championship (all other things being equal).
PLAYLIFE
Jan 21 2011, 03:52
I'd like to see Hamilton in a different team, with a world champion driver who has been there from the previous season at least, and see how he fares.
I think that will be a good test of him, not only as a driver adapting to a new car and team, but to test his mental game too.
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