Does anyone else feel that, perhaps, the spirit of touring car racing is lost at a professional (BTCC, ATCC, STCC etc) level?

The principle of touring car racing seems pretty simple:

Road cars [other than sportscars] (often accquired from the dealer down the road, even ex-Taxis!) prepared for racing with modifications, such as fat slick tyres, improved suspension, racing brakes, roll cage and carefully rebuilt motors. Simple, surely?

Cars like this:
http://www.motorsportarchive.com/Allan%20M...%201972%20d.jpg
http://www.allanmoffat.com.au/again/galler...mrx7bath841.jpg
http://www.passracing.com/02.jpg
http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS...ws/calsonic.jpg

Yet now the cars rarely reflect the desirable cars of the road? Instead of BMW M3s racing C63 AMGs racing Lancer Evolutions racing Chevrolet Camaros, you rather find:
- (really quite dreary) Seat diesel hatchbacks and (equally dull) Chevrolet Cruzes under the 2L classification (which to be fair, is nicely production based)
- cars so far removed from road cars in the DTM class
- cars that do not reflect the engine capacity or wheelbase of their road going V8 cousins in the australian class
- strictly identical chassis and engines running bodies of different makes such as the Brazil stock car class

With the principles of touring car racing be so simple would it not be good if the FIA returned the WTCC (and subsequently the national classes) to a more traditional set of touring car regulations? It is nice for Evos, M3s and other desirable modern road cars to race in amateur classes, but surely such cars professionally prepared and racing at a high level with professional drivers is what the public wants to see!

I recommend that you go and have a look at the Italian Superstars series. Mechanically pretty standard but very showy with some bloody good racing. We have had them out here in South Africa twice and seeing M3's, Chev/Holden Commodore's, C63's, Maserati. Jag's, Porsche, Audi etc having a go at each was great.
Their Tech people told me that they have a Budget cap of E200 000 for the year and believe me it is strictly policed. Some good names in it to, including this year Johnny Herbert.

They should go back to those type of cars, cars that look like you could buy in the real world


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-AxiVqihM

i just watched a tape delayed BTCC and DTM touring car races on speed tv today. That is what we need in the USA!

Competitive road racing using race modified road cars.

Personally, I care very little for the relevance of any type of racing to road cars - I enjoy watching the BTCC, DTM, V8 Supercars, etc., but I enjoy watching those series for the quality of the racing. The fact they (or if they) resemble, in appearance, tech specs or otherwise, their road counterparts, doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I understand why touring car racing (and rallying) became as popular as it is, and I get why manufacturers would want to make the average fan think he can buy a car he sees on the track, but it doesn't matter to me at all.

That's just me - being 19 and still not bothering to get a driver's license, I tend to be doubtful of people my age moaning on and on about how great and freeing being able to drive is. Speed limits, traffic laws and paying out the ass for insurance on a 15 year old Civic is not my idea of liberation, but I understand why it is to other people, and why they may base their purchases on what they see on the track. I think that as a motorist, you have to really bullshit yourself to be truly happy of driving a 'race car', you have to suspend your disbelief to a level I think renders any enjoyment temporary and artificial.

I watch motor racing to see cars go fast and to see exciting racing - whether it be cars that have absolutely no bearing on street legal machines at all, or cars that I would be a roll cage and driving suit away from racing myself if I owned. Given the choice, however, I'll watch a series made up of cars that share nothing but a name and a badge with their road going 'equivalents' over a bunch of Cruzes, SEATs and Vectras, if the racing was equally interesting in both examples, but if the Cruzes, SEATs and Vectras are more entertaining, I'll watch them. I won't buy one of those cars in real life, but I'll watch.

Isnt that what NASCAR was all about in its glory days. And DTM aswell. When your in Germany everybody shrugs off current DTM but gets exciting when talking about the good old days. Just like they do in the USA and the way NA STOCK CAR used to be

Which country?

Apparently in Brazil a new Toyota Corolla is $50,000 due to taxes I assume used cars are equally inflated.

The same car is $15,600* (minus dealer discounts) in the USA! (I guessed $15,000 and looked it up, so am quite chuffed ) (http://www.toyota.com/corolla/trims-prices.html) ...Unbelievable! (it's around $20,000 in Australia which is at the 'cheap' end of the market, with basic model Golfs and other 'quasi prestige' small cars like Peugeots starting at $30,000)

I live in Canada, but I'd consider 'paying out the ass' to be just about any price - I'd love to have a car.. I just wouldn't love it enough to justify abandoning my steady stream of bus tickets to get to where I need to go just a little bit faster than actually driving there, especially when I prefer the bus anyway. I don't know very much about relative insurance costs for someone with a decent job looking for a new car, I just meant that for someone working a minimum wage job like me, any cost would be too high for the value of having a vehicle.

In a perfect world for me I could just book a ride on the shoelace express any time I need to go somewhere.

Well the thing I don't like is the artificial rivalry.

"you're either a holden man or a ford man"

when the cars are the same and have been for a long time.

but at the same time, when you can predict the results because one car flogs the shit outta everything else (skyline gt-r) it also isn't as exciting to watch.


i hate it when manufacturers are written out of the series through rule books... audi's quattro cars in transam and imsa for example.


in short, i dont know

...and races that realy were interesting ! And cars could have a few dings and still being able to race.

Ralf

I don't think DTM thinks of itself as touring cars any more, more a mini GT series really.

BTCC cars are not that far from a road car to be honest, seam welded & de-bracketed shell, addition of a rollcage, the rest is bolt on stuff (suspension, brakes etc). I don't think WTCC are much different.

Aren't we going even further the other way (away from production machinery) with the switch to NGTC rules...

Yup, there's something wrong when a road saloon with widely slated chassis and/or engine turns up on the track winning because the manufacturer has hired a third party racing company to build a car that 'looks' like their saloon but in little if any way reflects the original desing/parts/structure etc.

I'd like to see the original engine blocks and chasis retained with the manufacturer themselves making the racing modifications.

Sorry, but that bit gave me a chuckle this morning.

What specifically in the NGTC rules makes you think its switching away from production cars ? I haven't read anything that would indicate that ?

Over the past, say 5 years BTCC rules have been changing to make the cars closer to their road going counterparts - things like suspension uprights and hubs have to be from the road going car (previously teams could make their own, lighter items).

The only thing I can think you that you are talking about is the spec subframe ?

With regards to the engines many manufacturers make petrol turbo engines too and IMHO NGTC rules will eventually change to use the FIA 1.6 turbo engines, they just need to sort out cost and a suitable engine for the engine that is available to all teams

It will be interesting to see what Neil Brown comes up with for the Honda units.

I don't know what answer to choose.

Yes it should reflect road going cars, but no it hasn't gone too far away from that today.

i dont consider DTM to be "Touring cars" anymore. theyve gone too far with everything theyre becoming GT cars now.

i dont see much of a problem with BTCC/WTCC cars. they still very much look like their road going cars, just with an aerodynamic body kit on them, not as if its just a plastic shell that resembles a ford focus that is placed on top of the chassis. its still the same car.

i wouldnt say this is too far removed from the road car http://www.easier.com/uploads/cache/thumbs...tcc-assault.jpg
and the NGTC rules have brought back cars and car manufactures that have been missing for years because of the crap rules that have been in place for the last decade, like Toyota and Audi. as dull as the car is in real life i cant wait to see how the Toyota avensis does one a race track

Actually, you can get a non-automatic for US$ 35K but it still being an horrendous difference.
There's too much taxation here and it reflexes on the market of used cars too, this same model from 2009 will cost about US$ 30K.

And when you consider imported cars, astronomic proportions would be achieved. 2010 BMW 118i are sold for US$ 58K.

imo - BTCC is the way to go for the future of auto racing. The race I watched, had two civics battling for the lead and there is no way the car cost more than 50K. The team, transportation and lodging are obviously a different story, but the cars are extremely close to the road cars.

50K ! you wont get one for that, in fact you'd be lucky to get a car thats 5 years old for that - its still a massively expensive game for what it is IMHO. The changes I mentioned above have been to cut costs, BTCC has always had a strong independent entry list and thats what has saved it in previous years, but they also want the manufacturers back. At the moment there are very few drivers that are actually paid to drive - Turkington didn't come back last year because he felt he should be earning from his driving and thus has swapped to WTCC. Paul O'Neill did a deal with Vauxhall to borrow a gearbox for his techspeed integra so he could continue racing, even then he nearly missed a few rounds due to funding - the guy has talent behind the wheel and loves his racing, certainly not an "also ran" or "gentleman driver", like most touring car drivers he's got a day job - driving tuition, work for manufacturers etc.
There just isn't that much money in BTCC. I think the big crowds are 25-30,000 over a weekend.

At the start of last year Depper had to send their engines back to Schnitzer for a refresh, about £25k each apparently. Thats just to freshen, god knows how much they are or the contract (as I understand it you never buy an engine, you simply rent one and have a support contract to go with it).
Granted the BMWs are the most expensive to run, but look here for example http://www.touringcarspares.com/car_list.php?cat=car the old williams lagunas are still fetching £30k a piece there and they are 12/13 years old.

I think when 888 sold off some of the Vectras last year they went for £70k or so, 2-3 year old shells, no engines.

the NGTC engine is cheap though, £10k IIRC.

Well, I wish this idea of "road relevance" buggered off into the world of touring cars and left F1 alone. It certainly makes more sense there.

A BTCC-spec Civic costs around £200k ($350k US). The engine alone costs more than $50k...

The cars are not close to the road cars, apart from the vary basics of the chassis.

I wouldn't say they are that far away to be honest - original chassis, floor & body shell. has to retain the original drivetran configuration, has to use an engine from the same manufacturer (unless using the swindon engine).
Granted the shells are fully prepared, for the most part thats alot of lightening and seam welding.
Most of the speed comes from the suspension setup and gearbox I think.

And slooowwwwwwwwww. 4 banger NA racing really does look a bit daft. If i am watching cars race on big tracks i want nasty, nasty cars.

The real problem with touring cars and GT is the dreaded balance of performance, as well as the weight penalties for winners.
So, nor the best car nor the best driver is winning.
Just the guy who has less ballast.

I followed Touring with interest in the 80-90, now I don't give a damn, it's a joke.

Well the way I see it touring cars is supposed to be crash bang wallop for half an hour. If it delivers this then really road relevance very much takes a backward seat in my mind. Sadly though only BTCC delivers this these days. To those mentioning DTM, does that even fall under the category of 'racing'???

USA had it, no one cared. See Trans Am.

They are not as far as DTM -those cars have zero relevance to road cars.

DTM is probably the least relevant to their road counterparts these days but I wouldn't wish them to be any different. It's what makes DTM DTM and at least it's unique in world motorsport.

Maybe it's not the technology that needs to be retrograded, maybe they just need to make the bodywork of touring cars closer to what the road cars are. Even the super touring btcc cars of the mid-late 90s had almost identical body panels to the road cars. It was DTM that started the aero orgy.

155 BTCC



155 DTM



Both beautiful and successful, like all the best racing cars

Which one? The late '60s/early '70s contests between Mustangs, Camaros and the AMC Javelin are generally thought to be one of the high points of US motor racing.

ok point taken, however, the series is cheap in comparison to alot of other forms of professional racing. Add to it the number of independent teams and i think it offers a great platform. question for you, how much does a 2011 btcc car go for?

was it called ATCC?

i was a fan of the trans am days back in the tommy kendall era, but i also felt the muscle car image of detroit was forced down peoples throats in the Trans Am series.....

most road cars of 4 cylinder NA machines.

One of the biggest problems to use almost standard touring cars is equalization. I can give you the example of TC2000: some manufacturers complained that their cars had a bigger frontal area and/or were taller than other models (for instance, compare a 307 with a Civic) so the organizers decided to let some cars to be "cut" so they will be more equalized from the aerodynamic point of view. Another thing in TC2000 were the suspensions: at one time Honda was the only one with "deformable parallelogram" or whatever you call it in english, while the other models had McPhersons. The thing is that the Honda system seemed to be superior to the other one, so in the end the organizers decided to standarize the suspension systems, which let everyone happy (except Honda, I guess, as they had no more advantage) and with a very welcomed reduction of costs. So many of the "prototyping" made in TC2000 was due to the need of equalizing the cars because of the structural advantages/disadvantages that some road models have over others.

Are you sure?

I heard numbers of $500k for new cars - similar to V8 supercars. Perhaps Dynamik build a more 'cut price' car than RML and their (more developed?) Cruzes, but still you'd imagine it would cost far more than that.

however, I believe you can buy a used BTC-spec car for just $50k and go and race in the famous BTCC class. Which is fantastic! F1 is not nearly so accessible to privateers.

Thats a difficult question, they are on the cusp of a new set of rules known as NGTC (Next Generation Touring Car).
Its a transitional thing at the moment. Last year they introduced the series engine, 2 litre petrol turbo engine, its based on a Vauxhall/Opel engine and is built by Swindon Race Engines. The idea is this is a cheap way to get top power - you can fit it to whatever car you run in the series.
Far as the cars themselves go you can run a NGTC this year, and you have to be running one by 2013 (think thats the right date).
Current cars (known as S2000 spec) can still run until that date. Originally the rules for this year said that BTC spec cars (the rules that pre-date S2000) would not be eligible for 2011, but they have done a U turn on that.
Nevertheless this came too late and as I understand it no-one will be entering a BTC spec car this year (the astra coupes have gone to the middle east, techspeed have put the integras up for sale).

So BTC spec cars will drop down to the likes of britcar and saloon championships, not worth that much now. S2000 cars will still fetch a good price, if you want NGTC you'll have to get one built.

Getting back to your answer I reckon to hit the track at the first race in an S2000 car you'll need £150k all in, buying a secondhand car, getting an entry ticket, tyres, other equipment etc. If you were lucky you might get through the season on another 50k but this would be seriously pushing it.

For a top flight NGTC car ? I reckon you would be touching 250k to build the car and get to the first round.

Please tell me what was wrong really with the old Group A regulations? Bodies had to be fundamentally standard and components had to have been homologated round a standard road going saloon car. Yes we got into the homologation special, but that can be factored out if the rule makers stop pandering to the manufacturers to push through "evo" models and bits that inreaseed the cost all the time.

I think it should be PURE stock car racing...

I.e. they go out and buy the car in the morning. and it's on the track by lunchtime...

That would be perfect!!

That is surely what Group N/Production class is meant to be?

Been there, done that. That capri 3 litre for the 24 hour was a really good one from B..............

I'm not sure how to answer because of how the question is phrased. "Should professional touring car racing (such as the WTCC, BTCC etc) reflect the performance cars of the road?"

I think that touring cars should be relatively close to their road-going counterparts. The looks should be about the same, so more WTCC/BTCC than the DTM. Obviously there should be some good race performance though.

But the question asks about the "performance cars of the road", but touring car racing should reflect the touring cars on the road. The saloons and hatchbacks that normal people buy. Performance cars should be racing in GT and sports car classes.