Could it actually be that tracks play a part in overtaking? As with the discussions in F1 and also here on the forum, I thought it was all to do with car tech regulations? (ref Dijon 79)
/end heavy irony...
Full Version: FIA to look at tracks for more overtaking
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89793
Could it actually be that tracks play a part in overtaking? As with the discussions in F1 and also here on the forum, I thought it was all to do with car tech regulations? (ref Dijon 79)
/end heavy irony...
Could it actually be that tracks play a part in overtaking? As with the discussions in F1 and also here on the forum, I thought it was all to do with car tech regulations? (ref Dijon 79)
/end heavy irony...
Obviously the cars play a huge part but so do the tracks.
GP2 races/F3 races whatever have very good races at tracks such as Spa. But Abu Dhabi? They suck there too...
GP2 races/F3 races whatever have very good races at tracks such as Spa. But Abu Dhabi? They suck there too...
QUOTE (phil1993 @ Mar 8 2011, 17:27) 
Obviously the cars play a huge part but so do the tracks.
GP2 races/F3 races whatever have very good races at tracks such as Spa. But Abu Dhabi? They suck there too...
GP2 races/F3 races whatever have very good races at tracks such as Spa. But Abu Dhabi? They suck there too...
Though the Aussie V8 Supercars manage to put on a good show there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URvFR9Ml0vU
Virtually nobody in the grandstands to see it though!
Track mod - my idea more than five years old. It's actually not so easy.Track needs more than one racing line to get cars side by side.
They should have looked at Abu Dhabi before they approved it for construction.
Anyone with half a brain would have known the short straights into 90 degree corners and long straights into tight chicanes (no new tracks should ever have chicanes on them anyway) were bad for overtaking.
They were too busy thinking about the spectacle of the fancy hotel and yachts to think about the track itself.
Anyone with half a brain would have known the short straights into 90 degree corners and long straights into tight chicanes (no new tracks should ever have chicanes on them anyway) were bad for overtaking.
They were too busy thinking about the spectacle of the fancy hotel and yachts to think about the track itself.
Most of the blame is on the cars but the tracks need some changing too.
Wasn't exactly this making then news some months ago?
We all know the cars have some fundamental problems, however there are a few tracks where a few tweaks would definitely help. The chicane at Nurburgring for example should be removed. The one at Barcelona too.
For now I'd say the cars were the worst factor, but tracks don't help sometimes. From Sepang on F1 started to widen the tracks alot, but there will always be 1 ideal line. In Abu Dhabi's case too it's very wide but the whole section after the long straight is a no-overtaking zone, even though it looks fast and seeing a car rush through it looks great. But even older tracks have that isue too, like Suzuka.
Chicanes was just that, to slow cars down because they were going too fast (omg fast f1 cars) for the old tracks wich were built in a different age. Old tracks hardly had any before, it was mostly sweeping and hairpins. I hate what happened to some like Spa, Silverstone, Hockenheim, Imola, etc. but maybe it was just the times catching up to them. Thank heavens they invented simulators though so we can still somewhat drive them how they were meant to be.
Chicanes was just that, to slow cars down because they were going too fast (omg fast f1 cars) for the old tracks wich were built in a different age. Old tracks hardly had any before, it was mostly sweeping and hairpins. I hate what happened to some like Spa, Silverstone, Hockenheim, Imola, etc. but maybe it was just the times catching up to them. Thank heavens they invented simulators though so we can still somewhat drive them how they were meant to be.
Sam Michael says in the article that they should ban chicanes.
Finally! Someone gets it!
Finally! Someone gets it!
I thought F1 was poised for more sophisticated overtaking solutions like modifying the weather and arming drivers with pistols. Making good race tracks seems like a very archaic solution.
QUOTE (Nustang70 @ Mar 8 2011, 15:13)
I thought F1 was poised for more sophisticated overtaking solutions like modifying the weather and arming drivers with pistols. Making good race tracks seems like a very archaic solution.
I agree Nustang. F1 is at its best when it's pushing the envelope and driving progress forward. Why back track toward such a 20th Century solution when the arbitrary and the gimmicky has proven such a successful recipe for the sport?
Bad move. They should look at fixing the cars first. It's easier, cheaper and more effective. The last time someone tried to "fix" a circuit, we got a fiddly chicane at the end of the Barcelona lap.
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Mar 8 2011, 21:19)
Bad move. They should look at fixing the cars first. It's easier, cheaper and more effective. The last time someone tried to "fix" a circuit, we got a fiddly chicane at the end of the Barcelona lap.
There is nothing easy or cheap with fixing the cars or they would have done it.
QUOTE (Peter3hg @ Mar 9 2011, 08:53)
There is nothing easy or cheap with fixing the cars or they would have done it.
Uh, what do you think all the rule revisions are about? They're designed to make the racing closer. And they largely have - when was the last time we had a season-long battle for the WDC, with the man who ultimately wins the title only leading the points table when he wins the final race?
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Mar 8 2011, 22:01)
Uh, what do you think all the rule revisions are about? They're designed to make the racing closer. And they largely have - when was the last time we had a season-long battle for the WDC, with the man who ultimately wins the title only leading the points table when he wins the final race?
And do you honestly think what they have done has been easy and cheap by any definition? They have made the racing closer but they certainly haven't fixed overtaking and that is by completely changing the aero properties of the cars as well as other major rule changes such as banning refuelling and reintroducing slicks. There is no cheap and easy solution without compromising safety or F1's position as the pinnacle of motorsport.
I never said it was easy and cheap. I said it was easier, cheaper and more effective to fix the cars than it is to fix the circuits. Because once you go ahead and make changes to a circuit, that's it. They cannot be undone. And you're stuck with them - look at the chicane in Barcelona. It failed. It hasn't done what it was intended to do. The circuit cannot be restored to its original configuration, and if it could, it would jsut be a waste of time, effort and money. And circuit design is still something of a black art, because there is no set of absolute conditions that will generate more overtaking. It would be very easy to go ahead and make changes to a circuit, only to discover that you have done nothing to fix the problem of a lack of overtaking. Which means it's easier, cheaper and more effective to change the rules, which will change the cars. Under the right conditions, I think the rulebook could lead to just about any circuit - even Abu Dhabi - having more overtaking.
FINALLY! 
It's about time the FIA address this tracks that do not present good overtaking opportunities.
It's about time the FIA address this tracks that do not present good overtaking opportunities.
QUOTE (Tuxy @ Mar 9 2011, 09:19)
It's about time the FIA address this tracks that do not present good overtaking opportunities.
Define "a good passing opportunity". Circuits like Abu Dhabi, that have a long straight that terminates in a tight corner/heavy braking zone, use the same logic as other circuits like Spa. Tilke's "trademark" has been a mainstay of circuit design since the Nurburgring and La Sarthe were created.
There is nothing wrong with the theory. It's the rule book that is restrictive, which is why Bernie Ecclestone has promised to try and open it up in future, and to bring Tilke into the design process sooner so that he can consult on which land the organisers should set aside for the race so that more events are like Austin and Sepang and Istanbul and less are like Abu Dhabi and Valencia.
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Mar 8 2011, 22:13)
I never said it was easy and cheap. I said it was easier, cheaper and more effective to fix the cars than it is to fix the circuits. Because once you go ahead and make changes to a circuit, that's it. They cannot be undone. And you're stuck with them - look at the chicane in Barcelona. It failed. It hasn't done what it was intended to do. The circuit cannot be restored to its original configuration, and if it could, it would jsut be a waste of time, effort and money. And circuit design is still something of a black art, because there is no set of absolute conditions that will generate more overtaking. It would be very easy to go ahead and make changes to a circuit, only to discover that you have done nothing to fix the problem of a lack of overtaking. Which means it's easier, cheaper and more effective to change the rules, which will change the cars. Under the right conditions, I think the rulebook could lead to just about any circuit - even Abu Dhabi - having more overtaking.
Absolutely! - see my earlier post re the Aussie V8 Supercars at Abu Dhabi. Also, if you go back far enough, overtaking was even possible at Monaco (Graham Hill's win in the 1965 Grand Prix for example). It would need some pretty radical changes to the cars though - a drastic reduction in aerodynamic downforce and getting rid of carbon fibre brake discs for starters. It couldn't just be for F1 either - it would have to ripple down through the lower slicks & wings categories or else a GP2 car would end up faster than an F1 (no jokes about HRTs please).
I'd like to see it but I reckon there are too many vested interests for it to be a realistic proposition. Even Max Mosley at his most messianic/dictatorial didn't have the cojones for that.
I just hope they aren't looking for places to put shortcuts and water-sprinklers.
I don't think you can have BOTH "closer racing" AND more overtaking in F1.
V8 Supercars maybe - compared to F1 they have no grip, no brakes, and no handling, so slipups and errors are inevitable, and bingo, you've got overtaking. And there is a lot of biffing and barging and pushing, too, which adds to the passing opportunities. F1 is different.
"Close racing" means having all the cars with almost identical performance, and drivers with almost identical skills.
Which means limited passing except during pit stops. There was never a whole lot of overtaking in F1 anyway, at least not in the years I have been interested (from late 60s on). They were often criticised as processional. There was of course quite a lot of overtaking in the turbo era, usually facilitated by a huge cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust of the car in front as the engine blew its guts out or the turbocharger blew up. One reason we think there was more is that for many years we could not watch a full race on TV, just an edited highlights package, which of course would show all the overtakes, spinouts and whatnot. In my memory, the liveliest era for overtaking was during the rapid technological change for the 60s and 70s. The very rapid rollercoaster ride from the end of the front engined days through space frames and monocoque tubs and wings and huge tyres.
Overtaking comes from a mixture of:
Differing performance of cars
Differing reliability
Widely different handing characteristics from car to car
Very different driving styles (which depends in part of item 3 above)
Today's F1 cars are, comparatively speaking, indistinguishable one from another in performance and handling, they are very reliable, and as a consequence overtaking is difficult. And there isn't an awful lot to distinguish between drivers, either, I think - at least not as much as there used to be. There are still degrees of talent of course, but even the mediocre drivers are pretty bloody good by any standards.
Pity, but there it is.
V8 Supercars maybe - compared to F1 they have no grip, no brakes, and no handling, so slipups and errors are inevitable, and bingo, you've got overtaking. And there is a lot of biffing and barging and pushing, too, which adds to the passing opportunities. F1 is different.
"Close racing" means having all the cars with almost identical performance, and drivers with almost identical skills.
Which means limited passing except during pit stops. There was never a whole lot of overtaking in F1 anyway, at least not in the years I have been interested (from late 60s on). They were often criticised as processional. There was of course quite a lot of overtaking in the turbo era, usually facilitated by a huge cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust of the car in front as the engine blew its guts out or the turbocharger blew up. One reason we think there was more is that for many years we could not watch a full race on TV, just an edited highlights package, which of course would show all the overtakes, spinouts and whatnot. In my memory, the liveliest era for overtaking was during the rapid technological change for the 60s and 70s. The very rapid rollercoaster ride from the end of the front engined days through space frames and monocoque tubs and wings and huge tyres.
Overtaking comes from a mixture of:
Differing performance of cars
Differing reliability
Widely different handing characteristics from car to car
Very different driving styles (which depends in part of item 3 above)
Today's F1 cars are, comparatively speaking, indistinguishable one from another in performance and handling, they are very reliable, and as a consequence overtaking is difficult. And there isn't an awful lot to distinguish between drivers, either, I think - at least not as much as there used to be. There are still degrees of talent of course, but even the mediocre drivers are pretty bloody good by any standards.
Pity, but there it is.
It baffles the mind that some still can't see that tracks is the single biggest factor to overtaking in F1. 
QUOTE (Terry Walker @ Mar 9 2011, 08:49)
I don't think you can have BOTH "closer racing" AND more overtaking in F1.
V8 Supercars maybe - compared to F1 they have no grip, no brakes, and no handling, so slipups and errors are inevitable, and bingo, you've got overtaking. And there is a lot of biffing and barging and pushing, too, which adds to the passing opportunities. F1 is different.
"Close racing" means having all the cars with almost identical performance, and drivers with almost identical skills.
Which means limited passing except during pit stops. There was never a whole lot of overtaking in F1 anyway, at least not in the years I have been interested (from late 60s on). They were often criticised as processional. There was of course quite a lot of overtaking in the turbo era, usually facilitated by a huge cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust of the car in front as the engine blew its guts out or the turbocharger blew up. One reason we think there was more is that for many years we could not watch a full race on TV, just an edited highlights package, which of course would show all the overtakes, spinouts and whatnot. In my memory, the liveliest era for overtaking was during the rapid technological change for the 60s and 70s. The very rapid rollercoaster ride from the end of the front engined days through space frames and monocoque tubs and wings and huge tyres.
Overtaking comes from a mixture of:
Differing performance of cars
Differing reliability
Widely different handing characteristics from car to car
Very different driving styles (which depends in part of item 3 above)
Today's F1 cars are, comparatively speaking, indistinguishable one from another in performance and handling, they are very reliable, and as a consequence overtaking is difficult. And there isn't an awful lot to distinguish between drivers, either, I think - at least not as much as there used to be. There are still degrees of talent of course, but even the mediocre drivers are pretty bloody good by any standards.
Pity, but there it is.
V8 Supercars maybe - compared to F1 they have no grip, no brakes, and no handling, so slipups and errors are inevitable, and bingo, you've got overtaking. And there is a lot of biffing and barging and pushing, too, which adds to the passing opportunities. F1 is different.
"Close racing" means having all the cars with almost identical performance, and drivers with almost identical skills.
Which means limited passing except during pit stops. There was never a whole lot of overtaking in F1 anyway, at least not in the years I have been interested (from late 60s on). They were often criticised as processional. There was of course quite a lot of overtaking in the turbo era, usually facilitated by a huge cloud of blue smoke from the exhaust of the car in front as the engine blew its guts out or the turbocharger blew up. One reason we think there was more is that for many years we could not watch a full race on TV, just an edited highlights package, which of course would show all the overtakes, spinouts and whatnot. In my memory, the liveliest era for overtaking was during the rapid technological change for the 60s and 70s. The very rapid rollercoaster ride from the end of the front engined days through space frames and monocoque tubs and wings and huge tyres.
Overtaking comes from a mixture of:
Differing performance of cars
Differing reliability
Widely different handing characteristics from car to car
Very different driving styles (which depends in part of item 3 above)
Today's F1 cars are, comparatively speaking, indistinguishable one from another in performance and handling, they are very reliable, and as a consequence overtaking is difficult. And there isn't an awful lot to distinguish between drivers, either, I think - at least not as much as there used to be. There are still degrees of talent of course, but even the mediocre drivers are pretty bloody good by any standards.
Pity, but there it is.
You're mostly right, but I see some things differently. The problem with the cars now is that you can't follow closely behind somebody else. You lose grip as soon as you get within 1-2s of them. That is what I'm I want from the OWG and FIA to fix. 2009 rules were supposed to fix that but all the trick front wings and DDD shut that down. Hopefully the 2013 rules include a ban on front wings which I think will help very much.
But yes, F1 will (hopefully) continue to be a constructors championship and that excludes all the cars from having similar performance. That is fine, there will always be boring races where the winner romps off into the distance undisturbed. But it is unacceptable to continue with these rules where you can be faster than someone ahead of you yet not be able to pass.
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Mar 8 2011, 21:19)
Bad move. They should look at fixing the cars first. It's easier, cheaper and more effective. The last time someone tried to "fix" a circuit, we got a fiddly chicane at the end of the Barcelona lap.
I agree with that. You know what would happen. They would try to "fix" the tracks that don't need to be fixed and leave the ones that do alone.
Chicane in the middle of Eau Rouge anyone?
Fastest stay in the front. How could a slower car overtake a faster car?
In case of a Trulli train, even a mile long straight would not help.
FIA and the teams should put some serious effort to study the cars and improve overtaking. Solve the 'i cant follow that car' problem first. Also steel brakes might help.
In case of a Trulli train, even a mile long straight would not help.
FIA and the teams should put some serious effort to study the cars and improve overtaking. Solve the 'i cant follow that car' problem first. Also steel brakes might help.
The problem is FIA will change all good circuits to tilkedromes, or tilkechicanes to help overtaking. They wont edit anything tilke designed.
QUOTE (ViMaMo @ Mar 10 2011, 06:45)
Fastest stay in the front. How could a slower car overtake a faster car?
In case of a Trulli train, even a mile long straight would not help.
FIA and the teams should put some serious effort to study the cars and improve overtaking. Solve the 'i cant follow that car' problem first. Also steel brakes might help.
In case of a Trulli train, even a mile long straight would not help.
FIA and the teams should put some serious effort to study the cars and improve overtaking. Solve the 'i cant follow that car' problem first. Also steel brakes might help.
Question: Was Trulli the fastest when he was at the front of the Trulli trains?
Answer: Nope.
QUOTE (bogi @ Mar 10 2011, 18:32)
The problem is FIA will change all good circuits to tilkedromes, or tilkechicanes to help overtaking. They wont edit anything tilke designed.
The article makes it pretty clear that the FIA are turning their attentions to the newer circuits, not the older ones.
QUOTE (Xpat @ Mar 10 2011, 05:58)
Chicane in the middle of Eau Rouge anyone?
That was tried in 1994
QUOTE (chdphd @ Mar 10 2011, 11:08)
That was tried in 1994
<sigh>
I made a joke, or thought I had. But someone thought it was a good idea....
Kind of makes you want to cry.
That chicane had nothing to do with overtaking opportunities, it was a result of all F1 tracks deemed unsafe after Senna's tragic accident.
QUOTE (wingwalker @ Mar 10 2011, 11:43)
That chicane had nothing to do with overtaking opportunities, it was a result of all F1 tracks deemed unsafe after Senna's tragic accident.
Indeed. It seemed a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
Chincanes aren't even the real villain either.
Judging by the FIA's recent history concerning new tracks, they'll ask Tilke about how to improve the tracks. 
As I said few times...
The easiest way to improve "overtaking" is:
1) When creating NEW track -> at least once (on the longest straight) there should be a left/right (!) 100-500m long symmetrical (!) section on the track. Driver would have to decide on the fly (every lap) which way he would choose. And that's it. Take a time to think about it before turning this as a bad idea!
2) Modify existing tracks -> 1)
Cheers - looking forward to 2011 season !
The easiest way to improve "overtaking" is:
1) When creating NEW track -> at least once (on the longest straight) there should be a left/right (!) 100-500m long symmetrical (!) section on the track. Driver would have to decide on the fly (every lap) which way he would choose. And that's it. Take a time to think about it before turning this as a bad idea!
2) Modify existing tracks -> 1)
Cheers - looking forward to 2011 season !
people what are ur views about the track being built for indian GP? is it good (overtaking wise strictly) or not??
(i really want to know.)
(i really want to know.)
QUOTE (cordell777 @ Mar 10 2011, 13:00)
As I said few times...
The easiest way to improve "overtaking" is:
1) When creating NEW track -> at least once (on the longest straight) there should be a left/right (!) 100-500m long symmetrical (!) section on the track. Driver would have to decide on the fly (every lap) which way he would choose. And that's it. Take a time to think about it before turning this as a bad idea!
2) Modify existing tracks -> 1)
Cheers - looking forward to 2011 season !
The easiest way to improve "overtaking" is:
1) When creating NEW track -> at least once (on the longest straight) there should be a left/right (!) 100-500m long symmetrical (!) section on the track. Driver would have to decide on the fly (every lap) which way he would choose. And that's it. Take a time to think about it before turning this as a bad idea!
2) Modify existing tracks -> 1)
Cheers - looking forward to 2011 season !
You have got to be kidding me.
What do you want? Overtaking maneuvres or "ways drivers can pass each other". We have the pitlane for the latter, and at least then it involves some thinking.
The best way to destroy overtaking (not passing) is your idea. Everyone would just wait to pass a driver on the symmetrical lane. And whooptidoo, that must be spectacular for the viewer
QUOTE (johnmhinds @ Mar 10 2011, 13:16)
Question: Was Trulli the fastest when he was at the front of the Trulli trains?
Answer: Nope.
Answer: Nope.
Thats what I meant. To overtake a mid grid car, nothing really works, if the driver has his braking covered.
QUOTE (wingwalker @ Mar 10 2011, 11:43)
That chicane had nothing to do with overtaking opportunities, it was a result of all F1 tracks deemed unsafe after Senna's tragic accident.
And is was still better than they did at Barcelona that year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXEp2M8exQ
Or what they did at Monza in 96:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4aCk8iOUM
The FIA has a really poor record with messing with track layouts.
QUOTE (johnmhinds @ Mar 10 2011, 23:39)
And is was still better than they did at Barcelona that year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXEp2M8exQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXEp2M8exQ
The Beirut chicane - so named because it resembled a checkpoint in Beirut - was nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to Senna's death that came about that way because the organisers had no time to come up with a more permanent solution to the problem. It wasn't even necessary to begin with, beyond giving the organisers the ability to say they had covered their arses in the event of an accident.
QUOTE (johnmhinds @ Mar 10 2011, 23:39)
Or what they did at Monza in 96:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4aCk8iOUM
The FIA has a really poor record with messing with track layouts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4aCk8iOUM
The FIA has a really poor record with messing with track layouts.
That chicane isn't so bad. Placing tyre bundles on the apex is a commonly-used tactic in touring cars. The V8 Supercars in particuar do it a lot on street circuits (though they are trying to phase it out). The idea behind anchoring them to the surface inside the apex is to force the drivers to stick to the circuit and avoid cutting the kerbs too much. It serves as visual proof that the driver is not obeying the confines of the circuit (thus making it easier to penalise him) rather than posting a danger to the physical wellbeing of the car. However, Formula 1 cars are considerably more delicate than touring cars, and as Hill demonstrated, they easily break when you hit them.
Change all the tracks on calendar I say! It is quite cheap, maybe just a couple of billion dollars in total. Doing so, they will be free to add more aero to the cars.
QUOTE (Augurk @ Mar 10 2011, 13:06)
You have got to be kidding me.
What do you want? Overtaking maneuvres or "ways drivers can pass each other". We have the pitlane for the latter, and at least then it involves some thinking.
The best way to destroy overtaking (not passing) is your idea. Everyone would just wait to pass a driver on the symmetrical lane. And whooptidoo, that must be spectacular for the viewer
What do you want? Overtaking maneuvres or "ways drivers can pass each other". We have the pitlane for the latter, and at least then it involves some thinking.
The best way to destroy overtaking (not passing) is your idea. Everyone would just wait to pass a driver on the symmetrical lane. And whooptidoo, that must be spectacular for the viewer
Well that (idea) doesn't stop/eliminate normal overtaking maneuvres right ? Jesus...
It would add some extra spice.
QUOTE (johnmhinds @ Mar 10 2011, 12:39)
And is was still better than they did at Barcelona that year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXEp2M8exQ
Or what they did at Monza in 96:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4aCk8iOUM
The FIA has a really poor record with messing with track layouts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXEp2M8exQ
Or what they did at Monza in 96:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4aCk8iOUM
The FIA has a really poor record with messing with track layouts.
There was one in Canada as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW1LVUNJJYQ&t=0m47s
This is of interest: 10 worst chicanes
Hard to see what they were thinking with that chicane at Canada.
Nobody has ever crashed on that straight.
Nobody has ever crashed on that straight.
Driving should be more challenging, such as giving opportunities to punish drivers who make mistakes. There's no need to modify the cars that much, apart from the fact that they are ugly.
QUOTE (johnmhinds @ Mar 10 2011, 16:26)
Hard to see what they were thinking with that chicane at Canada.
Nobody has ever crashed on that straight.
Nobody has ever crashed on that straight.
That straight has only existed since 1996. The chicane was put there because of the hugely fast S-bend that used to exist there, but it's not really visible in that video. They only got round to straightening it out in 1996 so that horrible chicane was there for 2 GPs.
See here for why is was needed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP-WZdc6dJs
Ah ok, that makes sense.
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