Are F1 drivers oblivious to the common rules of racing? You don't slam a door shut when someone is alongside. Nearly every incident we've had this year has been caused because a driver tried to close a door on a passing driver. Even worse is that the stewards and the FIA take the view that this is normal practice and then penalise the driver who had no control over the situation. In every other racing series in the world it seems the drivers get this but not in F1 and the FIA condone it. I don't get it, and I have raced.

Senna and Schumacher did that many times so why can't they? These drivers grew up seeing those two champions racing like that, and now they're just copying what they saw.

It was Senna in the mid 80's who primarily brought closing the door to F1.

Such actions weren't generally acceptable in F1 before this.

Although Senna raced hard he always left enough room. But regardless closing a door when someone is already beside you is wrong and if any penalty should be given out it's to the driver closing the door because it is they who caused an avoidable accident.

who gives a shit about what happened in the past, this is about racing etiquette in 2011.

I think that there's inherent risk involved in any overtaking move, and given that it's the guy doing the overtaking who has made the conscious decision to do so, I think it's correct that they're more liable to getting a penalty.

I do broadly agree with you though that there hasn't been enough respect recently when it comes to leaving enough room. Some are better at it than others.

Senna and Schumacher are perhaps the two greatest examples of drivers all too willing to ignore racing etiquette, as well. Dont forget that.

Going alongside the inside a driver entitles you to room IF the corner coming up is a slow one. You cant be alongside somebody at Copse and expect them to give you room, for instance. Today, the corner was a medium-speed one that usually doesn't accomodate side-by-side driving, as it was narrow and a quick right-left. Alonso had no obligation to give that corner to Button.

Its arguable, but I'd definitely say that Button should have known that he wasn't going to be given that corner like he expected. And to be fair, it did look like he backed off somewhat, but he did it a little late.

The quality of racing etiquette has been appalling this year.

have at it, boys. Oh wait, wrong series.

This. To me, its seems that any overtaking maneuvre that results in contact is blamed on overtaker.

You're absolutely right about passing conventions in F1, they've gone to hell. It's been a bar fight for much too long.

I'd also suggest that you don't try to overtake by poking your front wheels just in front of someone's real wheels and expecting them to concede the apex under threat of contact. Especially with DRS, that stunt just isn't necessary anymore.

Unless he didn't want to crash. Similarly Massa/Maldonado in Monaco were happier to crash following this principle rather than avoid a collision.

So its ok to put somebody in the position of 'move over or crash'? Thats exactly what Senna did wrong so many times and why so many drivers and fans didn't like him, including me. Too many drivers got plain bullied by Senna. Alonso could have given up his position, but there's something to be said about sticking up for yourself when you're in the right.

If someone is alongside you - you leave the room. You don't have to 'move', you simply leave room for the other car.

It depends on the corner. You dont go on the inside of somebody at Copse and expect room, for instance.

It was a quick right-left and it doesn't tend to accomodate two drivers. Button should have known that, but he saw an opportunity and didn't want to give it up. It was his fault.

I couldn't agree more, Sean. What Senna and Schumacher did was more of a mugging than a pass--"Concede the apex or risk having your back end come around...or worse."

Unfortunately, if drivers are going to persist in stuffing their front wheels where they don't belong, the defending drivers will have little choice but to keep asserting their right to the racing line and contact will inevitably ensue.

Au contraire, Button was in fact ahead on the straight going into the braking zone and towards the apex.



But Alonso was on the racing line at that point so he could brake later, and did.

To me, that's Alonso not giving it up. So how can it be Buttons fault? How can it be anyones fault?

Fixed

That's interesting, Disgrace. Thanks for the picture, that certainly makes things more complicated, doesn't it?

It does. Alonso can't say he didn't know Button wasn't there. Alonso didn't leave enough room, the contact was inevitable.

I disagree. Regardless of the corner if you're alongside then you have to be given some space. The real argument comes as to how you define alongside.

Agreed.

Pure racing incident, no one to blame. But if any of those two drivers were named Lewis Hamilton they'd be penalised, I'm sure 100%. Especially, on Buttons place.

Guess someone has had their fill of The Kyle B V Childress comments on speed today (Nascar)

Senna and Schumacher used to it to frighten drivers when they were behind them and it often worked. Drivers aren't frightened these days however and wont just jump out the way like the used to if they saw the famous yellow helmet of Senna or red of Schumacher. Hence the lots of contact we have seen recently. drivers rightly or wrongly dont like to give up.

It certainly seems like that. Chopping into someone who tries to overtake is currently considered as "driving the racing line" and in consequence the blame is always laid onto the driver who tried to overtake but got chopped. In modern times racing etiquettes are only demanded from the guy who tries to overtake. The defender can act like a complete retard and nobody cares.

Its not really a case of agree/disagree here. Anybody who knows anything about racing etiquette knows that you back off if you're on the inside of somebody at a fast corner or one where two-into-one wont go. The person with the racing line gets precedence. Thats not to say that there hasn't been instances of the person on the racing line backing off for another driver, but its usually cuz they were bullied into that situation.

I hate to say it, but I'm not surprised somebody with a screenname of Senna would feel the way you do, though. I'm sure Senna was well aware of what he was doing, at least. He knew damn well he was giving other drivers the choice of 'back off or crash' despite the other driver being in a plain position to take their line. Other drivers from his time have expressed as much.


Exactly.

This is not relevant to the thread.

Anybody who knows anything about racing will know that you don't back off if you're ahead or alongside.

It wasn't a quick corner at all. The driver on the inside has the racing line, it's up to the driver on the outside to choose between backing off, crashing, or leaving enough room to not get hit.

I agree with TC. The racing standards this year have been downright disgusting. One thing that nobody is talking about is Kobayashi THRICE brake checking a competitor and destroying the race of 2 of them.

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the raised impact protection areas next to the drivers helmet..

Personally I think the field of "ambient" vision has been reduced too far now and the driver is left "isolated" from what is happening around him.. This means that the driver in front can't see/sense the car making a lunge down the inside... I personally believe they are checking the mirrors early, seeing the car "too far back" to make a move, start the turn, and get caught out because the guy behind has actually made the move... As it currently stands the drivers can only rely on their mirrors to know what is behind them now (even when a car is partially alongside the drivers view is so limited they may not realise someone is there) , and the mirrors are small, and vibrate like hell.. Brundle has said on numerous occasions that the mirrors on an F1 car are virtually useless.. In years gone by drivers were afforded a much greater sense of what was around them..

Given that we're looking at two completely diametrically opposed views then maybe this is the problem. For me, and coming as much from an oval racing background as anything else, the inside line is king and if you're on the outside you concede and 'live to fight another day' as the saying goes......if you watch 'other' forms of motorsport, from MotoGP (note the Simoncelli/Pedrosa clash recently as an example) to Speedway to oval car racing and on and on the inside is the place to be and an outside pass is considered brave/stooopid (usually depending on whether it worked or not) but i've never heard 'racing line gets precedence' before and it still strikes me as weird that when cars are nose to nose into a turn that the car on the outside would expect the other to give way? that aint happening.....

I commented in another thread that many F1 fans seem confused about all the on track passing this season. Face it, there just has not been much over the last decade or so. Is it possible that the drivers are not used to it either?

It is not "cars nose to nose". I think most of racers have the same clue as any average Joe unless they have driven in a Formula 1 championship or the series immediately below. Otherwise, saying "I am racer" means next to nothing for me. I have raced too (not professionally, just as a hobby) and I am not sure how much of it can be applied to a Formula 1 race. I have been taken out by other drivers who thought they could get my inside, but they were way too ambitious. I understand they took it because they saw the famous "gap", but most of them just apologized after the race, except for a moron who took me out of the track in purpose and then just told me "That's racing, right?".

In F1, the mirrors are only marginally useful at best. If you are behind and you don't think you can finish the overtake, then you usually back off if you are approaching a very tight turn from the inside. Also, every time you are a bit behind, you are at risk that the driver in front is not aware of your exact position and then moves in a way you didn't expect and there is no time to say even "howdy". It is up to you to get out of the way on time, IMHO.

In the case of Button and Alonso, for example, it was a racing incident. It is right that Button did not get penalized. Button got momentarily ahead, but not enough to take the racing line or tackle the chicane that was coming, so he backed off just a bit too late as they both approached the turn. Alonso could have tried to open a bit just in case there was not enough space, but he probably thought there was enough space to take the turn without making contact. And in chicanes is always difficult to open too much unless you slow down considerably. That's anyway how I see it. And I think the stewards were right in this case and most of the cases so far.

BTW, great race by Jenson!

EDIT: Just correcting my crappy English. And also, if the stewards had been quite strict, Jenson would have gotten a penalty for taking Alonso out, but I think they acted well in this case to give enough room for racing.

C'mon fellas. It's racing. No risk, no fun.

It certainly doesn't look like the pinnacle of motorsport for the most part.

Exactly. Inside is king because if you are on the outside you will have to do what Alonso did - cross the path of the other car in the apex. It does not work because there will be a car there.

The rules actually allows the stewards to give penalties for the defender, but they never do. Unless it is a question of a rather harmless weaving. Strange that.

With all do respect, it's this exact reason why everybody thinks he was the greatest, and why theres countless doco's and a movie about to come out about him.

You look back on that era, and you remember his complete and utter ruthlessness.

When I look back on this era, I'm not going to remember who politely let so and so pass because he had the racing line, I'm going to remember who went all or nothing for position, put it all on the line, and came away with it.

But at that time, drivers feared for theire lifes, and the health. Now they don't. it just don't work anymore.

His ruthlessness simply preyed upon other drivers and their want of doing well for themselves. Senna shouldn't be commended for something that would probably get him wrecked 7 out of 8 times in modern days, I'd say. That 'all or nothing' attitude can make a driver look just as foolish as it can them brilliant depending on how other drivers react. There's always been a fine line between 'hero or zero' in motorsports, but I think Senna got lucky with it more often than not. He was a fantastically quick guy, but he had little care for proper racing etiquette and I will forever dislike him for it. And his insane belief that God was somehow looking out for him or whatever it was simply made his recklessness all the more absurd and dangerous, especially when considering that F1 was hardly as safe as it is today.

Anyways, again, you cant expect to be given room through quick corners or any corner where two-into-one doesn't go, even if you are side by side going into it. Its basic racing etiquette, but no doubt many drivers throw the dice in that position hoping that the other driver will back off. Doesn't mean that they have some genuine right to the corner, though. You can throw the dice, but you've gotta accept responsibility if a collision happens.

Common rules of racing does not include moving over for someone who puts his frontwheel in a place where it shouldn't be when he isn't alongside and doesn't have a gap - really. There has been too many poor overtaking attempts this season.

I think the lack of passing opportunities in recent years may contribute to the poor overtaking attempts. Drivers may be seeing the open door now a bit more than they are used to and are trying to drive through it thinking it may not come again.

Well actually you it goes "outside-apex-outside".
Who cares about the racing line when one try to overtake? The racing line is the fastest way through a corner and has nothing to do with overtaking. You shouldn't take a piece of tarmac when there's already another driver, regardless of being on the inside or outside.

I was watching some of the support BTCC races at Croft on TV yesterday where the standard of driving was awful There were a few examples of faster drivers trying to overtake round the outside of corners whilst being completely alongside the driver with the inside line. However, the driver with the inside line wouldn't give any room and would force them onto the wet grass at corner exit. Is it just me who finds this unacceptable?

No. It's not just you.
This is much easier to do in tin tops than in open wheeled cars and it is just as ugly to watch.

Agree with you, stewards were correct. If Jenson got a penalty for that move then it would be time for F1 to give up.

Jenson took the inside line by going faster up the dirty side and keeping control of his car. He didn't lose it under braking and smash into Alonso.

Alonso was on the racing line, but as has been pointed out, while the racing line might be the fastest way around a corner, it doesn't give you the right of way. Fernando saw Jenson right beside him and had to choose to brake hard or brake late. You can't get two cars through there so 'leaving the other driver room' doesn't apply. Fernando chose wrong.

From another forum ...



The keyword is passing! It is not called alongside'ing. The attacking manouvre isn't complete until you are PAST your opponent. Having your front wing next to your opponents rear wheel is not "past".

If by attacking the car in front of you, you put yourself in a position where you are unable to complete your manouvre without your opponent yielding in some form, you're not making a pass, but causing a crash. If your opponent chooses to yield to avoid the crash you are causing, that does not make you great at overtaking.
You are the driver instigating the incident by deciding to attempt a pass that requires your opponent to do something you can't expect him to do, in order to make your attack succeed. If he doesn't do that, YOU are still the person causing the incident.

So gung ho-style attacks at the last moment on the inside of corners that are so tight, that you can't expect to make the corner while staying on the inside line and not drifting to the outside and effectively pushing your opponent off track is not "making a pass", yet these are often seen in F1.

Getting alongside on the inside on a straight, but having to brake first to make the corner, and thus losing that position again, isn't passing either.
You have to PASS your opponent and make the pass stick to force him to yield. If you brake first and your opponent gets back ahead of you, he has PASSED you again, and you have to yield.

These fairly simple ground rules was strictly upheld by these guys, and racing was probably never better! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3tXJm9tYGM



BTW ... The whole "leaving room" concept is a huge can of worms if you get into that in detail. Chapter IV of the Sporting Code states...



So, how much room is "enough" room? If you have part of your outside wheel in contact with the inside white line in a corner, you are still deemed to be "on the track" according to Chapter IV article 2c, and according to 2b you can't crowd a car beyond the edge, by definition allowing you to crowd the car all the way to the edge of the track.

So basically, according to the Sporting Code, you can push your opponent all the way to the white lines, and still claim you're "leaving room on the track"!

BTCC is a crashfest without penalties!

If you can get yourself into a position where you reach the point where only one cars fits through (usually the apex) before the other guy, without having to pass through the other car or run him off, and can maintain control of your car throughout the entire manoeuvre without putting yourself into to position on the track where your opponent can immediate retake the position back - job done. There is nothing wrong with that kind of overtake.


To suggest that you have to complete an overtake in such a way that your opponent can drive as if you aren't even there is ridiculous.