Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

New Honda evolution: 798bhp

Started by eamo , Apr 12 2002 12:46

Please log in to reply

24 replies to this topic

#1 eamo

Member

517 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 12:46

From Justin Hynes in The Irish Times

http://www.ireland.c...2GRANDPRIX.html

"Team insiders, though, admit that the new engine development is still seriously down on power in comparison to the front-running teams, with one team member stating that the new version of RA002E is some seven horsepower down on even the "Suzuka special" RA001E engine Honda brought to last year's season closing event in Japan.

With last year's Suzuka engine rated at 805bhp, that puts this new Honda unit at an estimated 798bhp. With Williams new BMW powerplant, believed to be the grid's most powerful, nudging close to 895bhp, Jordan are still well off the front-runners' pace."

Back to top

#2 Ghostrider

Member

16,216 posts
Joined: July 99

Posted 12 April 2002 - 12:50

Originally posted by eamo
From Justin Hynes in The Irish Times
With last year's Suzuka engine rated at 805bhp, that puts this new Honda unit at an estimated 798bhp. With Williams new BMW powerplant, believed to be the grid's most powerful, nudging close to 895bhp, Jordan are still well off the front-runners' pace."[/I]

I think Hondas Suzuka special had more than 805 bhp and I think BMW currently has less than 895 bhp. But the gap is still pretty big I guess.

Back to top

#3 eamo

Member

517 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 12:53

I'd heard loads of talk about being down on power, and even if these figures are exagerated, the gap is still massive

Back to top

#4 Louis Mr. F1

Member

3,495 posts
Joined: May 99

Posted 12 April 2002 - 13:37

Wowwwwww! with 798 horses, there's no way Minardi is going to fight them.

and that's exactly what i meant a week ago when I said I am not excited by any Honda new engine announcement anymore. Why all the hype? it doesn't mean anything. If i were them, I would just put out the new engine without any press release.

Back to top

#5 StickShift

Member

5,386 posts
Joined: September 01

Posted 12 April 2002 - 14:49

I really doubt that statement is true. All engine manufactuerers are very secretive of how powerful their engines are. They won't disclose the actuall HP any time during the season. To have one team come and say the engine they've got has exactly 798HP in an engine they haven't even raced yet doesn't sound exactly right.

I do agree that the Honda engine is probably still low on power, but I doubt that it is exactly that low. I would question who exactly Justin Hynes got that information from...

Back to top

#6 eamo

Member

517 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 15:32

Justin Hynes would know a lot of the Jordan team pretty well and I'd say he would stand over his article - I think Jordan might be trying to defend their performance by leaking this figure, or trying to embarrass Honda into not being so conservative when it comes to development

Back to top

#7 palmas

Member

1,114 posts
Joined: August 99

Posted 12 April 2002 - 15:54

Don't you think it's more like 798,25?

Back to top

#8 X-ray

Member

547 posts
Joined: February 01

Posted 12 April 2002 - 16:09

In short, I don't believe in those figures for a second!

Back to top

#9 eamo

Member

517 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 16:11

Originally posted by X-ray
In short, I don't believe in those figures for a second!

I don't think they are totally accurate, but it is well known/rumoured that Honda have made a mess of this years engine, and these figures indicate that

Back to top

#10 miniman

Member

2,457 posts
Joined: May 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 16:21

Man, the Honda brass must be pretty pissed off with Jordan and and all the complaints about lack of power, BAR is handling it a lot more diplomatically.

Eddie better start shopping for a new engine supplier by now, the Japanese are not known for their equanimity.

Back to top

#11 Ghostrider

Member

16,216 posts
Joined: July 99

Posted 12 April 2002 - 16:25

Originally posted by miniman
Man, the Honda brass must be pretty pissed off with Jordan and and all the complaints about lack of power, BAR is handling it a lot more diplomatically.
Eddie better start shopping for a new engine supplier by now, the Japanese are not known for their equanimity.

I think Honda prefers to work with people who have won recently and who can build a good chassis. Jordan is making Honda look reasonable at the moment, Honda should be happy BAR is not they only team they are working with right now, because that would have been embarrasing for them.

Back to top

#12 Rene

Member

6,926 posts
Joined: March 01

Posted 12 April 2002 - 16:31

Originally posted by Ghostrider

I think Honda prefers to work with people who have won recently and who can build a good chassis. Jordan is making Honda look reasonable at the moment, Honda should be happy BAR is not they only team they are working with right now, because that would have been embarrasing for them.

Considering 0 points in 12 opportunities, I'd say Honda should feel sick and embarrased about their poor performance in light of Toyota's 2 points in 6 opportunities.....while neither BAR nor Jordan have produced a great chassis, both are still better than their results....in this case the engine is the weakest link in both teams....

Back to top

#13 miniman

Member

2,457 posts
Joined: May 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 16:41

Constructive criticism is one thing, back biting is another and in their frustration the Jordan boys are unwitingly undermining themselves. From the position Honda is finding themselves in it is not unfathomable they could take the Peugeot route. It would be sad if that happened

Back to top

#14 Ghostrider

Member

16,216 posts
Joined: July 99

Posted 12 April 2002 - 17:48

Originally posted by miniman
Constructive criticism is one thing, back biting is another and in their frustration the Jordan boys are unwitingly undermining themselves. From the position Honda is finding themselves in it is not unfathomable they could take the Peugeot route. It would be sad if that happened

Of course you are right that back biting isn't especially productive, but I don't think Jordan has been any more vocal in their criticism of Honda than BAR has. Both Panis and Villeneuve has expressed concerns about the new engine, as has Fisi and Sato. If Honda can't stand some criticism when they obviously are struggling hugely then they maybe should consider a less competitive arena than F1. But I think Honda has no problem with this and can take and understand the criticism, and will work hard with their partners to improve as fast as possible. I have still big belief that they will deliver soon.

Back to top

#15 SeanValen

Member

17,023 posts
Joined: February 01

Posted 12 April 2002 - 17:54

Originally posted by Ghostrider

Of course you are right that back biting isn't especially productive, but I don't think Jordan has been any more vocal in their criticism of Honda than BAR has. Both Panis and Villeneuve has expressed concerns about the new engine, as has Fisi and Sato. If Honda can't stand some criticism when they obviously are struggling hugely then they maybe should consider a less competitive arena than F1. But I think Honda has no problem with this and can take and understand the criticism, and will work hard with their partners to improve as fast as possible. I have still big belief that they will deliver soon.

Agreed. Sometimes you need to voice concerns, enables engine manufacturer like Honda to take as many steps forward as they have been backwards, sooner or later, or for optimists, Honda will get upstars, and pass the engine to Bar and Jordan and say we delivered, anything is possible in f1. :up:

Back to top

#16 miniman

Member

2,457 posts
Joined: May 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 18:10

I would agree with both Sean and Ghostrider if this was the case of a European or North American manufacturer, however, the Japanese are different. They will work as hard as anyone but are oversensitive to overt criticism. Honor and harmony are very important characteristics to them, thus openly advertising Honda's shortcomings, in my view, will be counterproductive.

Back to top

#17 eamo

Member

517 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 12 April 2002 - 19:05

I think they'll just have to get used to some criticism until 'the big step' comes

Back to top

#18 Colin

Member

153 posts
Joined: December 01

Posted 12 April 2002 - 21:25

Honda quote "in excess of 800 bhp" for their engine? Can BAR and Jordan sue them for false advertising?

Seriously though, let's do some math. Using news quoted from JacquesVilleneuve.com, the RA002E engine was supposed to start the year at 820 bhp and be at 850 bhp before the end of the year (quite a jump during the season!). From comments made Pre-Melbourne, and the "small" step of the Imola engine, I think it would be safe to assume it is still below 820 bhp. Assuming Hynes' "7 hp less than the Suzuka Special" is correct, we can compare this to last year. According to the same site, Honda's 2001 engine put out 810 bhp near the end of the year, with the "Suzuka Special" adding 10 bhp to that. If correct, that would put the Imola-spec RA002E at 813 bhp. That is a believable figure to me.

Back to top

#19 pRy

Member

26,356 posts
Joined: March 99

Posted 12 April 2002 - 22:42

I dont get it... first Mercedes, now Honda.. what is it with these crap engines?

Back to top

#20 eamo

Member

517 posts
Joined: February 00

Posted 13 April 2002 - 01:19

I can believe the813 figure - still a long way benind the high 800's of the BMW or Ferrari

Back to top

#21 K-One

Member

6,248 posts
Joined: June 00

Posted 13 April 2002 - 05:59

Fisi said that new Honda is only 12hp more when they need at least 40 hp more...

Back to top

#22 ebin

Member

262 posts
Joined: October 01

Posted 13 April 2002 - 06:44

Fisi's math is definitely off. He needs a lot more than 40 more hp. Closer to 60 and possibly 80-100hp.

Back to top

#23 AndreasNystrom

Member

785 posts
Joined: December 01

Posted 13 April 2002 - 08:16

Ofcourse the BMW can have 890HP, but then again, it could produce that number over just a limited rev. And the rest of the band of revs, its producing 40hp ;D

As long as a engine delievers much HP over the range, i wouldnt want to say its a bad engine. I rather have a engien with much hp over much of the revs, then an engine producing lots of it at a single rev.

Back to top

#24 Colin

Member

153 posts
Joined: December 01

Posted 17 April 2002 - 19:30

Fisi's math is definitely off. He needs a lot more than 40 more hp. Closer to 60 and possibly 80-100hp.

To make up for the car, maybe. To match the power of the BMW, definately not. Who knows how much power the Honda has, but by my above analysis I think 813 is a reasonable number. In the latest issue of Race Tech Mario Theissen allowed that the BMW was at 850 hp midway through last season and they are enough on the edge that they are now talking about "individual horsepower" gains. Even allowing for a hp jump from the P80 to the P82 BMW, it would surprise me if they were over 870 hp and 860-865 seems more reasonable. The press has really exaggerated the performance differentials between the the engines in terms of horsepower. The Asiatech is supposedly at 800, so that would put them only about 65 hp down on BMW. The Honda would need at least 45 hp to match BMW at this point, but not 100!.