One more little thing.
According to Hungness 1984 Jose or "Pepe" Romero is Floridian.
If it helps somehow..

Great job Richie

Not sure Butch Brickell should be on the North American 'extras' list though - his one attempt to start an IRL race ended in the Walt Disney wall (followed by the hospital) in pre-race testing, a full 12 days before the actual race (per motorsport.com). As far as I can tell he never set foot in an indycar again, although the entry continued at least as far as Indy.

Shame though it is to lose any driver named Butch...

Yeah, it's a bit debatable isn't it, but he was injured in an effective attempt to make the race.. so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now...

Thanks for the d.o.b. of Omar Toft -

BUT

The biographical sketch is misleading .

Omar Toft was killed in a race at the Phoenix State Fair grounds on 12 November 1921 .

Sources: Dallas (TX) Morning News, AP wire service, 13 November 1921;
The Atlanta (GA) Constitution, 13 November 1921;
Los Angeles (CA) Times, 13 November 1921, AP night wire, page IV13;
Los Angeles (CA) Times, 15 November 1921, page III1.

Starters in the fifty mile race were Toft, Ralph De Palma, Jimmy Murphy, and Tommy Milton. Murphy failed to complete the first mile; Milton dropped out in the sixteenth mile; After Toft's crash in the 24th mile, the race was called in favor of De Palma, who had led the race from the beginning.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City, OK
erkelly2@cox.net
Motorsports Memorial

Three-time Indianapolis 500 starter Mike Magill passed away August 31, 2006 at the age of 86.


MAGILL, CHARLES E. 'MIKE'
On August 31, 2006, age 86, of Haddonfield, NJ. Beloved husband of the late Jeanie Magill (nee Hollis. Dear father of Shirlee J. Cox of Haddon Township, NJ and the late Charles E. Magill III. Father-in-law of Deborah Magill of Corbin City, NJ. Grandfather of Courtney Myers of Merchantville, NJ, and Cristi (Mike) Boddy of Haddon Township, NJ, Candice Magill of New York City, Charles E. Magill IV and Lauren Magill, both of Corbin City, NJ. Great grandfather of Ryan Myers, Matthew Myers, Gregory Myers, Katie Myers, Amanda Boddy, Ashley Boddy and Alexis Boddy. Also survived by dear friend, Russ Dodge of Berlin, NJ. Mike was a WW II
Veteran serving in the U.S. Army as a 6th Night Fighter Pilot in the Central Pacific and Western Pacific as well as Air Combat in the Asiatic-Pacific Theater Campaigns. Mike was also a successful race car driver, nicknamed 'Iron Mike.' In 1951, he was the Modified Stock Car Champion at Alcyon Speedway in Pitman, NJ. He was the 1950, '51 and '53 URC Sprint Car Champion. In 1953 he raced NASCAR at Langhorne, PA and the Darlington, SC Southern 500, and in 1957, '58 and '59, he raced at the Indianapolis 500. In February of 2002, he was inducted into the Eastern Motorsport Press Association (EMPA) Hall of Fame along with Dale Earnhardt, Sr.
Relatives and friends are invited to attend his graveside services Wednesday, 2:30 PM at Locustwood Memorial Park, Route 70 West and Cooper Landing Road, Cherry Hill, NJ. In lieu of flowers, contributions in Mike's memory may be made to the Victory Junction Gang Camp, 4500 Adam's Way, Randleman, NC 27317, or by visiting: victoryjunction.org. Arrangements by the JACKSON FUNERAL HOME of Westmont, NJ. For e-condolences please visit www.jackson.net

thanks i r

Unfortunately, the latest update just missed Magill's passing, but there's enough info on it to keep anyone happy - I hope!

2006/2007 WATN
Bertuzzi, Auinger, Alesi, Deletraz, E Cheever, Caffi, Capelli, da Matta, Filhol, Goosens, Giebler, Hynes, Dk Hill, Herta, Lamy, Kiesa, Kubica, Kerr, Manning, McGehee, O Martini, Minassian, Moreno, Meira, A Muller, Mikola, Noda, Pizzonia, Pescarolo, Ruberti, Rugolo, S Sharp, Tielemans, Tolsma, Unser Jr, J Villeneuve, Zonta, Yoong

General WATN
Bellasi, R Cheever, Danner, Donnelly, Jordan, Hockenhull, Lewis, D Morgan, Kolby, McGarrity, Musetti, Morelli, Nicholson, HJ Stuck, Sospiri, Stokoe, Stirano, Tambay, Wyss

NEW INFORMATION
FULL birthdetails for: (and WATN info in most cases)
Aldridge, B Ashmore, Agg, Berthon, Joe Chamberlain, R Clarke, K Gregory, Earle, Feast, Ferris, D Gardner, Gibbins, C Hill, Horsley, H Hall, Danny Jones, Walter Jones, D Kelly, Kirkpatrick, L Kraus, Migeot, Maddock, Marrable, J MacDonald, Preston, E O'Donnell, D Paul, Ruble (note Barry not Harry), J Richards, Ryton, Sieff, Smallman, Tower, Tomita, Wardrop, Warr, M Williams, Vasselon

Partial birth details for:
A Brown, J Baldwin, P Burgess, Colotti, Cutting, Dalton, Giudotti, Gentry, Frazer-Nash, Hodkin, Marozzo, Ralph, T Robinson, Slater, Stait (not Strait), Toleman, P Wright, Vlassopulos (note spelling), Valentini

FULL birth & death details for:
L Bailey, Abell, C Bigelow, Leighton, Seymour, J Thomas, D White

Partial death details for:
Berthon, Dalton, Hennerici, Kirkpatrick, Nakamura

FULL death details for:
Frazer-Nash, Herr, Kohlert, Shattuc, Stringer, von Faulkhausen

CHANGES TO OLD INFORMATION
Bennett, Densham, J Davis, C Gardner, Fowell, Grob, Gilbert-Scott, Herd, Newey, Nursey, Purnell, Phillippe, Terry, Thiesen, Walkinshaw - correct birthplace
Bellasi - correct first name
Beardsley - corrected birthdate/place
Dacco - correct deathplace
J Cannon, A Jenkins, Salazar, Tyrrell - corrected birthdate
GibbINS as opposed to GibbONS.
Mays - corrected deathdate
Theissen, Tolentino - corrected spelling

DEATHS/ILLNESSES
Fontes Bayardo, Testut

ANYTHINK ELSE
Added an extra Bob Bell, as Rewind pointed out.
Most nationalities filled in & GP totals updated.

THANKS
Big thanks especially to David Holland & David Hayhoe and all the GP drivers interviewed at the GP Masters - Paolo Barilla, Alex Caffi, Andrea de Cesaris, Rene Arnoux, Christian Danner, Eddie Cheever, Sandro Nannini, Damon Hill, Hans-Joachim Stuck, Patrick Tambay, Vincenzo Sospiri, Jan Lammers & Dave Morgan.

A HUGE THANKS to Adam Ferrington for his sterling work.

And equally worthy of praise are Rick Kelly, David Beard, Malvi, KJJ, Rewind, Ian Senior & Axlex, with vital bits of info.

Hello again,

Comes now the nitpicker of "established facts".

But first, has this site considered including the riding mechanics, also called mechanicians, who have participated in the Indianapolis 500?

These guys have exposed themselves to the same risks as their drivers, and were essential to the success of many of the cars on which they served.

Too frequently they seem to get the short end of the stick when it comes to recognition.

Or, perhaps they are considered to be insane to ride in a race when they have no control over their destiny, and being insane they would be an embarassment to the sport?

- - - - - - - - -

More to the point of this site -

Subject: JOE CACCIA

[Speaking of insanity, I have this uncontrollable urge to say "Gezundheit!" each time I see this name, but I will resist the temptation. . . . .]

Joe Caccia and his mechanician were killed in an accident during a practice session, preparing for qualifying, on Tuesday, 26 May 1931. Both men died at the scene of the accident.

It seems that most sources state that Joe Caccia was born in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, on 19 January 1899.

While researching and making corrections to earlier entries in Motorsport Memorial about this accident, I came across two census entries which state that a Joe Caccia, nearly the same age as given for our subject, was born in Italy, and came to the United States with his parents in 1898.

I finally found a connection that reinforces my premise. A newspaper report said the accident victim's mother's name was Sophia. The 1910 Census shows the following family, all Caccias, living in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania: Grazoria, age 43, head of household; Sophia, age 32, his wife; Dominic, 17, Adaline 15, Joseph, 14, Rosie, 8, Anthony, 5, James, 1 year, five months old.

The 1920 census finds Joseph Caccia, age 22, birthplace Italy, boarding in Chester County, Pennsylvania, employed as a chauffeur. There may have been two Joseph Caccias in Pennsylvania, but both were born in Italy.

The newspaper article has gotten buried with my research on a four-fatality air crash, whose pilot was Shirley Short, who was attempting a world record when his Bellanca X-855-e, "The Blue Streak", crashed near Chicago, killing all four aboard - on the same day as the Caccia accident.

I will send the citations, or a link to Motorsport Memorial's page, when it is available.

Comments?

Bless you.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City
erkelly2@cox.net.

Rick, I presume the point of the above post is to say Caccia's birthplace is wrong and not that we have the wrong fellow??
If that IS the case, then he was born in Naples (Napoli), as confirmed by the WWI draft card info on his brother, Domenico & his father, Grazoria, AND their immigration records, and by Joe's WWI draft card, which also gives his profession as a chauffeur.

Hi Richie,

Yes. The birthplace is the issue here, and you have the best answer, that Joe was probably born in Naples, Italy. (Even if not, we are at least an ocean closer and in the correct nation.)

I don't know who first proposed that Joe was born in Bryn Mawr, PA, other than some have mixed up residence at time of death with actual birth place.

The other question, unanswered, was about riding mechanics, aka mechanicians. Inside or outside the parameters of your pages?

Best,

K

Outside.

I haven't much time now to go into greater detail but basically very in a nutshell:
1) not always entered
2) didn't physically drive a lap.

Not a problem with me. The riding mechanics, spectators, etc., are covered by Motorsport Memorial.

K

This may be of some interest to some of you:
Kenny Eaton is one of 20 or so drivers I've recently found a fair bit about. The obituary is from the 1st Jan 1981.

Official Glenn "Fireball" Roberts site is now up: http://www.fireball22.com/

Intoduction from Pam Roberts Trivette.

Henry

Latest updates are now up & hopefully the GPM Interviews will go up to in their entireity shortly too:-

Anyway for now:-

Full date/place of death: Aiden Jones, Berthon, Rodney Clarke, Grob, Kirkpatrick, Merzney, Rawlings, Thicksten, Turgeon, van Gorder

2006/2007 Updates
Briatore, Sarrazin, T Scheckter, Tracy, Tredozi, R Byrne, Briscoe, Bjork, Bartels, Ayari, Bourdais, Alonso, Allmendiger, Dalziel, Doornbos, Dominguez, da Matta, Carpentier, Colciago, Caffi, Dixon, Castro Neves, Foyt IV, Gascoyne, Toccacelo, Viso, Verstappen, Weaver, Herbert, Henzler, Hornish, Herta, Heidfeld, Karthikeyan, McNish, Melo, Panis, Raikkonen, Penske, Rinland, Rahal, J Russell, M Schumacher, Schrader

General WATN updates
Barnard, N Brown, Constantino Jr, N Carter, Frere, Fraizer, Eaton, N Wirth, Warren, P Hill, Jay Hill, Leston, Oatley, Pocock, Piquet, J Rose, Romero, Sutton, Sposato, Thackwell

Full birth details
B Boyer, Brandfon, N Brown, Dalton, Cutting, Calahan (note spelling), Clemons, Choulet, Guyot, Hodkin, W May, Marton, W Morton, A May, Pardee, Stait, B Spence, S Smith, Terry

Birthplace added:
Bertuzzi, de Cortanze, Gentry, Vita, P Wright, Weiss, C Hill, Irvin, Ogilivie, Purnell, Ralph, J Robinson, Romano, Smallman, C Smith, Slater

New Entries
Caceres, Figge, A Wirth, Jani, Hitzinger, Mol, Kovalainen, Almondo

Amended Information:
Caccia, Eaton, M Oliver (birthplace)
Fowell (birthplace, deathplace & deathdate)
Magill, J MacDonald (birthdate)
Lewis D & Marquart (death place)
M Phillippe (birth & death place)

Partial Death Details: Clemons, W Morton

FULL INFORMATION:-
Guidotti, Guyot, Jessop, Moriceau, Shultz (note sp), O Smith, G Taylor

Died: Magill. (This update was done before J Coy's death)

Others: Many others updated with minor changes, spellings etc, and all GP totals update to end of 2006 season

Thanks
Indy Richie, Ben Beasley Murray, David Holland, Adam Ferrington, Robert Dick, Rick Kelly, Gene Ingram, Henry County Library & Henry County Historical Society, Kathy Ward & Haine Kane


Reinhard, PM on the way

Hi, Richie,

I can provide additional information and a correction on Jack R. Ensley, who tried to qualify for the Indy 500 as a rookie in 1958 (when he was 51) and again in 1959. He was born on October 17, 1906, in Los Angeles, and died in Indianapolis on January 13, 1972, not 1970. (I have the newspaper obituary dated January 14, 1972, from the Indianapolis newspaper.)

His personal life was more interesting than his (amateur) racing career, although he did finish third at Sebring. According to a story by Donald Davidson in the June 1983 issue of "Open Wheel," Jack at one point ran a cocktail lounge which employed two ex-wives, his current wife, and current girlfriend, all at the same time.

David Seibert

David,
absolutely fantastic! I had drawn a complete loss with this, especially as someone said he was Canadian & I was trying that avenue.

I'll have to check my records tomorrow morning, but, from this information, I believe that Ensley was the oldest ever rookie in the history of the Indianapolis 500.

Many thanks David - you are a star!

You couldn't help with the other 173 Indy 500 mysteries could you??

Was he older than Steve Barclay? Barclay IIRC was in his early 50s when he nearly wiped himself out in ROP.

Yep, I make Barclay born 13th December 1944, so he was 45 when he blotted his copybook in 1990.

By the way, Ensley IS indeed the oldest. (or known to be- there's still about 25 drivers with a missing age, as it were). The oldest I had down was Nino Farina & Jack Fairman who were both 49 when they "had a go" at Indianapolis.

I'm in the middle of some Indy stats & figures on stuff like this, so this Ensley development is very interesting, and hopefully I'll have the findings posted here soon.

Richie,

As an aside, Ensley's age could have been reported as almost anything when he obtained his license and attempted to qualify. As Davidson wrote in the same article, "... after his death he was found to be at least twelve years older than he claimed." I believe that the figures I quoted, from the Social Security Death Index and his published obituary, are correct.

I've been pulling together a profile of Ensley for my own interests; among other things, he taught me to drive a car.

David Seibert

My Internet Explorer has been infected with some sort of bug with their new version, wich shows error messages. I am patched into HP's access to a different search system, so I hope this gets to you.

Motorsport Memorial shows that Bill Denver's full name is William Denver Orem. He died the same day as the accident, 28 May 1933.

MM's current page is in error also, because Denver and his riding mechanic, Hugh Hurst (or Robert U. Hurst?) both died shortly after the accident on 28 May 1933. Denver died in the ambulance en route to the hospital, and Hurst died shortly after arrival at the hospital. Sources are The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, and the Chicago Tribune, all dated 29 May 1933, and The Oklahoman, dated 30 May 1933.

"The Tribute Project" also mentions the complete name, but has the wrong date of death.
The place of birth shown in the present version of MM was entered by one of MM's Italian correspondents, who assumed that if Orem was "from Audubon, PA", then he must have been born there. (Mamma mia!)

I will be updating MM's page within the next week, after the above mentioned bug is fixed.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City

I have:
"Bill Denver" b.19 Jun 1895 Ravenswood, West Virginia b. 01 Jun 1933 Indianapolis, Indiana USA :- Killed during qualifying for the Indy 500. Was working as a factory night shift supervisor to fund his racing.

Is this wrong? WWI draft card backs up his birth, but you're saying the death details are wrong?

Yes. Date of death is 28 May 1933.

K

... which means this is all wrong?

Not all, but some. I've spent a fair time today looking through all the historic newspaper collection on Ancestry, and Rick is right with the death date.

The problem I see with the Ravenswood paper article at the link is that, while not dated, it is clearly something written many years later...and perhaps an error crept in.

The location of Neville Lederle's VW-dealership was of course Bloemfontein, not Blomfontein.

Hi Richie
According to 1984 Indy 500 Media Fact Book, compiled by Bill Donaldson and Bob Laycock and 1982 USAC yearbook, Mark Lee Alderson was born in April 18, 1945 in Chambers,Nebraska. If i consider his racing record, this matches better than 1956 in your site and have to be correct. Resume of his career: Mark Alderson attended Timber Lake High School in South Dakota and went to college at South Dakota School of Mines.First raced at Christal Lake,Michigan in 1969 driving a midget.He raced Outlaw Midgets through 1970 and from 71 to 72 he competed in the Canadian Auto Sports Club and IMSA road racing.He won three features in 1971 in Formula Ford road racing. In 73 and 74 Mark competed in NAMAR midgets winning 6 features in 73 and 6 features in 74. He moved to USAC midgets from 75-81.He also competed in USAC sprints since 1976.Mark competed in the 81-82 USAC Gold Crown division.He had a good year in 1982 finishing in second place in the USAC Silver Crown series as a driver and was first place in the car owner points.He won the 4 Crown Eldora Championship Dirt Qualifying race.He was named the STP-USAC Gold Crown division Most Improved Driver in 1982. He also competed in the ASA Circuit of Champions in 1982. He entered to Indy in 83 but did not passed ROP. in 82-83 he finished 5th in USAC Gold Crown points and was also 7th in the 83 Silver Crown point standings.He also competed in 6 USAC sprint car races during this season.

First of all, I'd like to thank Richie for the terrific job he's done. So many well researched birth and death dates all at one source, a researcher's dream come true. So, the natural thing to do is to download all the data, fill in the voids in one's own database and correct where necessary. Which is what I did with prewar Indy drivers, realizing I'd spend dozens of hours to do a job half as well with trizillions of other sources... just hopeless. A few raised eyebrows there and then - "Gee, I didn't know that!" "Really???" - but hey, Richie's an expert!

Then I got to letter "S" and Doc Shanebrook, who Richie tells us in his usual confident tone was born Merlyn Shanebrook in 1922. Got you there: you obviously guessed, and guessed WAY WRONG! The Doc already raced in the mid-thirties, and his real name was Beauford (or possibly Buford), I have that from several sources. One report mentioned his age, I calculated his birthyear as 1907, give or take one.

So now what? Was this the one slip? Or is there more? Don't take me wrong, we all guess, we simply have to. But a "possibly" here, a "probably" there, or an "apparently" makes you think twice before you delete your previous entry. What makes me sick is that I have been through letters A-S correcting my own data with yours, and then had to go back again, trying to remember just where I had what. Oh yeah, the penance of the copier, you say ;)

So, to make it all worthwhile, here's what I can still remember, and some other stuff:

Walt Ader, born 1912 - I have 1913
Atkins & Ayulo both died one day after their respective crashes
Ball crash was in Jan 1953, will try to find the correct date
Baumann died Aug 17 in Kankakee race
add Frankie Beeder, non-starter in 1938, was 1937 Eastern Champ, died 1938-09-24 at Allentown, PA
Merle Bettenhausen is younger than Gary, born in 1943 I think - correct date will follow
Bothwell's car was very probably NOT the 1916 winner
W. W. Brown was known as Billy Brown
Bryan born 1926 - I have 1927
Byron born in AL - I had TX, I think, maybe TN
Buddy Calloway - the name's Callaway, a very famous family, both the brother and the son also raced
Benefiel - you sure? I have always seen Benefield
Carey born 1904 - I have 1905-09-24, he died in Alhambra, not Gardena (three different locations for four different tracks with the same name), the same goes for Al Gordon and Herman Schurch
Casman - the name's Cosman, first name Thomas
G. Chevrolet born Oct 26 - I have Oct 4
Wally Campbell died July 17
Connor born 1906 - I have 1908
Davies born Aug 8 - I have Aug 18
Billy de Vore's real name Louis? - I have only ever seen William (mind you, this sort of thing happens, likewise I've never seen Willard Endicott, only ever William)
Elliott later worked for Ethyl Fuel Corp. in racing
Fohr born Jun 17 - I have Jun 12
Fraizer - I have only ever seen Frazier
George born Jul 15 - I have Jul 5
Gleason killed in practice crash
Goldsmith born 1925 - I have 1927
Hansen (was he really that old?) later was a sprint car owner with his brother, Marshall, they ran a supercharged Sampson midget engine, Rodger Ward drove for them
Hannon died May 21 - I have May 22
Heath born Jan 1 - I have Jan 18
add Jerry Houck, non-starter in 1931, won as riding mechanic in '32
Hoyt accident was Jul 10, he died Jul 11
Jagersberger later built the famous Rajo engines
James crash was Nov 2
add D. A. "Ab" Jenkins, non-starter in 1931
Herb Jones killed in qualifying
Parnelli Jones born in Torrance, CA
Arnie Knepper brother of Ray - you sure? Never heard that...
Koetzla later worked for Gilmore Oil, was track manager at Gilmore Stadium, race promoter
Kohlert was car owner
Jud Larson was born Grand Prairie, MO not TX, real name Eugene
Lockhart born Mar - I have Apr
Mackey = William Gretsinger, killed in sprint car qualifying
Malloy born 1932 - I have 1935
McCluskey born 1928 - I have 1930
Nalon born Mar 2 - I have Mar 12

too be continued (I hate this notebook keyboard )

Uh-oh. I think he's back.

Almost, Allen, almost

Where were we? Ah, yes...

Overton A. Phillips was known as Bunny Phillips, built the famous Bugatti/Miller special and reputedly was a connaisseur and collector of valubale cars
Pixley died in sprint car heat at Roby Speedway in Hammond, IN
Putnam wasn't killed at 1st race at Indiana State Fairgrounds, that was in 1903!
Quinn died Dec 13 - I have Dec 12
Reid born Aug 11 - I have Nov 17
Resta born 1882 - I have '84, though born in Italy his nationality was English btw
Revson died in test crash
Roberts born in 1904 - I have 1901
Bill Robinson I have as Bob Robinson, died 1930-07-27 in Woodbridge, NJ sprint car race
George Robson born 1909 - I have 1907
Rounds took up sky-diving after failing to kill himself in autoracing & survived that, too!
Joe Russo crash was Jun 9, died Jun 14? (hm, don't understand my own notes - I thought he was killed instantly), his widdow married Billy Winn
Schneider born 1901 - I have 1899
Schrader died Oct 22 in Shreveport, LA
Bob Scott born 1927 - I have 1928
Sessions born 1935 - I have 1936
Shanebrook, real name Beauford/Buford, born around 1907
add Julius Claude Slade, non-starter in 1930
Elbert Stapp - I have Egbert Stapp
W. H. Stubblefiel - I have Hartford W. Stubblefield, born Dec 1909 seems awfully young to me
Bill Taylor born FL - I have CA
Teague born Feb 22 - I have May 22
Templeman born CA - I have CO
Theisen died 1935-04-06 racing in OH, he was Midwestern Champion the year you said he died! Btw, I've seen his name spelled Thiesen, Theissen, Thiessen and what have you - can't vouch for it, but I believe Theisen is right
Tolan born 1917 - I have 1918
Triplett died Mar 5 - I have Mar 4
Vance became a noted car & engine builder (1948 Midwest Big Car Champion with Spider Webb), his son John Jr. was a well known USAC official
Wallard born 1911-09-08 - I have 1910-09-07
Carl Williams born 1930 - I have 1932
Winn died in sprint car crash (I think it was a heat race)
Woodford died in sprint car crash together with Earl "Zook" Harton
Zborowski's cars were called "Chitty-Bang-Bang" and had nothing to do with book, musical or film
Wonderlich: real name was George W. (no really! small wonder he changed it)

Ball crash was 4th January, I remember it well because it was my minus 20th birthday.

Bryan - most records say 1927, but his grave says 1926 - Richie only changed his entry recently.

Michael, I'm a little disappointed by your tone. I think your criticism, whether it was meant as a light barb or not of some aspects is very unfair.


A lot of my dates match up with birth/death indexes, family information, social security and the like.
I do the best I can and have to rely on other people's information. Sometimes I do make errors, but we all do, and I have never pretended otherwise. That I go round saying "what's on there is right" is plain wrong & my intro to the site says that in black & white.

I was told, re. Shanebrook quite authortively, Merlyn Shanebrook was his real name, so less of the gloating of my "guesswork" please Michael. I took that information in good faith, acted on it & produced the dates. There wasn't any guessing there. Obviously, I was told wrongly. This does happen.

If I am wrong fine, please post here & correct me, like Malvi has done with Alderson. But to be told you are sickened by the fact you have to retype everything makes me think "well, why bother then..."

I very rarely guess now, I triple check it through. Donald Davidson has been through the list & corrected some bits & pieces as well & it made me, through his proddinbg & probing, get some kind of factual proof rather than a stab in the dark.

With some of these, you are either definitely or probably right, but before I take your word for gospel, do you have somes sources to back some of this information up, Michael. Otherwise I'll be replacing all my information when it could be wrong (and some of it is, I'm afraid) and that would sicken me.


Anyway, to address a few points/clarify/musings:

Arnie Knepper brother of Ray - you sure? Never heard that... Yes

Resta born 1882, Draft Card and Immigration Records

Paul Goldsmith fudged his age. From the man himself.
Jimmy Bryan's comes from his grave.
Revson's entry says he died in a practice crash, so what's wrong with that?

Floyd Roberts - hard to say here - there's evidence for both 1904 & 1901

George Robson, as I have posted time after time, is 1909 for sure, backed up by the London Records Office of Births, Deaths & Marriages. I am sick of the Robson brothers now.

I have seen Louis Schneider b. 1899, but I can see where the confusion comes from as there's another LS born near our man, same region etc., but 1901 appears to be the right date.

Schrader died Oct 22 in Shreveport, LA - just checked this, you are right. Likewise, with Bob Scott, as the Californian Birth Index proves this.
However Sammy Sessions is definitely 1935, NOT 1936. Proof

Shanebrook. Well I've found Beuford B Shanebrook, b. 26/1/1907, Rockford, Illinois d. 25 Aug 1976, Redford, Michigan, so one presumes this is the man.

add Julius Claude Slade, non-starter in 1930

Did he ever take to the track though? I know he was there as the entrant for Rollie Free. Anyway, if he was on track, b. 12 Jun 1895, Jackson, Mississippi d. December 1973, Jackson, Mississippi

Dick FRAIZER was his real name.

Stapp - DEFINITELY ELBERT

W. H. Stubblefiel - I have Hartford W. Stubblefield, born Dec 1909 seems awfully young to me.

Well, I have Wilburn Hartwell Stubblefiel, with the 1909 date coming from here
Still hard to say if his name is Stubblefield, or Stubblefiel, as that Californian Birth Index may be a mistake??

Bill Taylor's birth place came from his obituary. He was often listed as from California, however.


Teague born Feb 22 - I have May 22 - definitely born February


Templeman born CA - I have CO - my mistake, sorry.

Theisen - is definitely spelt that way. Info came from Russ (i forget the surname, Buford's friend), who generally was/is very reliable. There's nothing in the Ohio Deaths of 1935 to back your data up, though, which worries me a little - however, I have seen reports that he died in Dayton, Ohio as well, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Tolan born 1917 - 1917, as proved here


Carl Williams born 1930 - I have 1932 Another fudger of age -as proved here, it is 1930.


The others I'll get back to you later on as I've a few other things to do right now.

The tone of the above posts from Fines is very diappointing... and not one which I would have expected from a long-standing TNF-er.

There are many better, courteous, respectful ways of offering up particular areas where Richie's data might be inaccurate and need to be re-checked than the "holier than thou" tone adopted in the above posts.

Another sign of declining standards at TNF, I fear.

BTW....

I am sure that Ian Fleming would be most interested in this assertion.

Actually, some of the info questioned was my contribution. I can vouch for it's sources as well.

I do know I particularly contributed data for several of the drivers whose "given" age and "real" age were different (including Jim Malloy).

In addition to Richie, I had done research for myself, Motorsport Memorial, The Tribute Project, Greg Fielden and Ed Watson. It was hard to keep track of what, where when illness interrupted. But, these were checked and cross checked.

The on line California index has a habit of dropping letters in lengthier names, so I think it might be Stubblefield. Too bad I don't live closer to Sacramento, like I used to!

I also noted and noticed the differing dates for Allen Heath. I chalk that up to a typo.

Thanks Adam, but ultimately I don't want a posting war, I want us to work together for a common goal. Although I'm tired somewhat of TNF (I've already stopped posting elsewhere on Atlas), it's still a good place for info. There is some decent stuff that MF has posted.

Anyway to continue:-
Ader Again, deffo 1912.

Atkins died on the 13th, as I've got down, not the 14th. Californian Death Index

You're right about Baumann dying in a race, and at Kankakee, not Konkakee, but he actually died a day later, the 18th, apparently.


Merle is definitely born in 1939. See here for starters and that's far from the only source that says 21 Apr 1939.

Bothwell's car was very probably NOT the 1916 winner - yeah, I thought I removed this. Ah well, I will now.


Benefiel - yep. And Gene Heeter confirmed this, after spending years on this guy. What's more, if you check the SSDI, I'm not just sure, I'm CERTAIN.

I've seen Casman AND Cosman. Trouble is, there's only one Thomas Cosman in the 1930 census, and it certainly is not the same man who attempted Indy.

I think Gaston Chevrolet's dates are discussed elsewhere on TNF


Connor born 1906 - I have 1908. No, 1906. See here
(though the date of death is actually the 28th)

Jimmy Davies - Born the 8th, not the 18th

Definitely Willard Endicott, his great-nephew confirmed it. Devore's sister (now deceased) confirmed he was born Louis & that it should be spelt Devore, not De Vore.


Again, check the SSDI. Fohr born June 17th

With the non-starters, again, they're not listed anywhere else, so can you confirm/back up?
(Beeder, Houck, Jenkins etc - I think Jenkins/Houck were actually, but I like to be enlightened further - any extra Jenkins on this list is always welcomed. )

Heath. We're both wrong. It's actually the 3rd according to this


Common misconception with Parnelli Jones. Moved there as a boy, but not born there. Proof

Larson, again, my mistake, sorry.


and finally, Michael, sorry but Malloy WAS born in 1932 see here , Nalon was born on the 2nd again, see here and McCluskey was born in 1928, for he was another to fudge his age.






I have given up a lot of valuable time tonight & early morning to clarify some of these queries, so I await your reply with interest, Michael.

According to this story Ab Jenkins built a Duesenberg and planned to race at Indy in 1931, but came down with blood poisoning and put Tony Gulotta in the car instead.

Having corresponded with Michael for some years, I am also surprised by the apparent tone of his email.

I doubt very much that he intended it to come across the way it has. As he's posting away from home, he may have been hurrying and may not have had time to read it back.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

Allen

Something about Ab Jenkins here:
David Abbott Jenkins
b. 25 Jan 1883 Spanish Fork, Utah
d. 09 Aug 1956 Wisconsin

EDIT:
Once you start googling you find lots of stuff about Ab Jenkins,
for instance: here & here.
This is the man:

I listed some more CART/USAC drivers from the early eighties, i have some "place of birth" doubts and need to be checked if possible. I added as much information(full names,childhood,schools) as i was able to find. I hope it helps somehow.My little reasearch is based mostly on Donaldson & Laycock work and some differences might be very minor but i`m not very good in US geography.
Patrick Joseph Bedard - born in Waterloo,Iowa,attended high school in LaPorte City,college education from Iowa State University.
Thomas Allan (Tom) Bigelow - born in Elkhorn,Wisconsin,grade school in Richmond,WIS,high school at Whitewater.
Stephen Chassey - born in Brockton,Massachusetts, moved to California when he was 2 years old.
Dick Ferguson - born in New York City but attended high school at John Marshall in LA,California.
Daniel William (Spike) Gehlhausen - born in Tell City,Indiana, graduated from Jasper High School and attended Vincennes University.
Thomas A. Klausler - born in Ft. Snelling,Minnesota, high school at Cicero,Illinois.
Roger Rager - born in Lincoln,Nebraska, high school in Gering,Nebraska.
Joe Saldana - born in Clay Center,Nebraska, high school in Lincoln,Nebraska.
Dick Simon - born in Seattle,Washington,high school as well in Seattle, then attended University of Utah on a skiing scholarship.
Bill Vukovich II - born in Riverside,California, moved to Fresno when he was a child.
Dale Whittington - born in Farmington,New Mexico,attended high school in Ft. Lauderdale.
Phillip (Phil) Caliva - born in Sicily, after obtaining US citizenship attended high school in San Gabriel,California and Pasadena City College.
Charles J. (Chuck)Ciprich - born in Sayre,Pennsylvania, high school at Watkins Glen.
Philip Eugene (Phil) Krueger - born in Milwaukee,Wisconsin, attended Country Day grade school there, high school at Foothill High in Tustin,California.
Edward G.Pimm - born in Newburgh,New York, attended Cornell University.
Kenneth William (Ken) Schrader - was born in St.Louis, high school in Ballwin,Missouri.
William Harvey (Bill) Tempero - born in Milwaukee,Wisconsin

Malvi, I strongly suspect all of these are the correct birthplace.

The US media has a perverse & annoying fascination with a hometown, but not a birthplace. In most other media they say ie Twynholm born Coulthard etc, but not in the US.

Sometimes one and the same, sometimes not. But very frustrating.


As for the above, the trouble is finding birthdates from 1931 onwards, due to few censuses etc. But Vukovich is definitely right, as backed by the Californian Birth Index.

Thanks

Assuming death dates are easier to confirm than birth dates, can I query Bobby Marshman's?

A couple of books of mine, and his grave, say 3rd December - in which case today is the anniversary R.I.P.

Keep up the amazing work Richie

The Texas Death Index says...
The 3rd

So, that's another one changed, because that and most importantly, a grave, is hard to argue against.
Thanks, EB.

Word has come today that Len Sutton has passed away from cancer. Not sure if he passed last night or this morning, though.

Indyrichie, please see the thread I started earlier. I think he died on Sunday at his home in Oregon, but this'll be confirmed soon.

According to Donaldson & Laycock i add some more CART/USAC drivers with different POBs.
Thomas J. Bagley - born in Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania,attended grade and high school there, graduated at Drexel University with a bachelors degree in Physics and earned his masters degree at Penn State.
Cliff Hucul - born in Grande Prairie,Alberta,CAN,grade and high school there,then Alberta College.
Steve Krisiloff - born in Newark,New Jersey,grade and high school in nearby Parsippany,also studied at Ripon College and the University of Miami.
Greg Leffler - born in Indianapolis,Indiana,attended North Decatur high school.
John William Mahler - born in Alpha,Iowa,attended high school in nearby Waterloo,then Iowa State University.
John A. Martin - born in Cushing,Oklahoma,went to high school in Houston,Missouri.
Richard L. Muther - born in Alhambra,California,grade and high school in Whittier,also studied at Orange Coast Junior College.
Robert Anthony (Bobby) Olivero - born in Compton,California,attended Theodore Roosvelt grade school,Dominguez high and Compton Junior College.
Larry Rice - born in Crawfordsville,Indiana,grade and high school in the small farm town Linden,Indiana,graduated from Ball State University.
James J. (Jim) Buick - born in Omaha,Nebraska,Columbian grade school,Westside high and the University of Nebraska.
Robert T. (Bob) Lazier - born in Minneapolis,Minnesota,where he graduated high school,Drake University at Des Moines and University of Minnesota.
Jerry Wayne Miller - born in Salem,Indiana, attended high school in Albuquerque,New Mexico.
Frank Weiss - born in Cardston,Alberta,CAN,grade and high school there,then Southern Alberta Institute of Technology.
John J. Wood - born in Morristown,New Jersey,grade and high school in Westtown,Pennsylvania,graduated from Babson College.

All birthdates i have matches perfectly.

Once again, thanks Malvi

Re: Travis Spider Webb

Have just found this forum while trying to find more information on my Dad's racing career. He did indeed die in Jan of 1990 in McMinnville, Oregon. It is stated that he died in May of 1990 but this is in error. Must have been when it was reported. Does anyone out there have any pictures of him? I lost everything I had during a hurricane in the US Virgin Islands and would really like to have some again.
Thanks Evelyn webb Glenn

Evelyn, I think the reason for the confusion is because the SSDI index gives your father's death as occuring in May, but as you've established, January is indeed the case.

I do hope people post pictures, but two other places to try are www.trackforum.com and the Yahoo Racing History Group at http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/RacingHistory/

I, lamentably, do not have anything on file, I'm afraid.

Comes the picker of nits again -

Re: Roscoe Sarles.

The track was in Kansas City, Missouri .

Allan Brown's tome places the site of the Kansas City Speedway at 95th and Holmes Road.

The state border between Kansas and Missouri is one mile west of this intersection.

All other info appears to be correct.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City

http://chicanef1.com/births.pl?decade=198&type=b
And Where is Nico Rosberg ? 27.06.1985
http://wildsoft.ru/drv.php?l=R&id=200601010