I am looking at the WW-I draft registration card of an "auto race driver".

Name: Andrew Burt.
Date of birth: 27 May 1890.
Born in Gardner, Illinois. (~50 miles southwest of Chicago)
On 05 June 1917 he was a resident of Chicago, Illinois, at 1649 Jackson Blvd.
At that time he was married, with one three-year-old child.

The Registration card was signed by Andrew Burt.

Rick Kelly, researcher
Motorsport Memorial

PS:

Found Andrew E. Burt's obituary in Chicago Tribune of 18 June 1962.

He died on 16 June 1962. Survived by his wife, Florence, and daughter Florence J. (Burt) Coveney, sister Mary E. Burt.

!930 U.S. Federal Census showed him employed as a "salesman, auto acces.". Wife was Florence, daughter was Florence.

His best race of 17 AAA champ car events was third place on 03 September 1917, a board track race in Uniontown, PA.

His last appearance in AAA races was as an eleven-lap relief driver for Percy Ford, who finished third at the Indy 500 of 1921.

K

Excellent - another mystery solved! Thanks Rick!


Yeah, those WWI draft cards are very useful - that's how I found Burt's details in the first place...

Latest updates are now up:

WATN 2007 Season
Artam, Bremer, Camathias, Dernie, Dean, Eyckmans, Erwin, Earle, Fama, Ferte A, Filip, Formato, P Freisacher, Guerreri, Goeters, Giebler, F Giaffone, Gomez, Grand, J Gene, Hillenburg, D Hamilton, Hearn, Hunter-Reay, Junqueira, Jenkins, Julian, Kasemets, Kerr, Kunzman, Kiesa, Legge, Lopez, B & J Lazier, Lohr, Mansell, Moreno, Medeiros, Mikola, Mollekens, Martinez, Noda, Nakano, Nissany, Nurminen, Nannini, Piccolo, Pavicevic, H Richards, Rinland, Sospiri, HJ Stuck, T Suzuki, Salazar, Toccacelo, Tomita, Trolle, R Unser, A Unser Jr, v. d Merwe, Verdonck, Van Hool, Verstappen, Wardrop, Zakowski, Zonta


WATN - General
Dalmas, del Castello, de Groodt, Englehart, Gilardi, Gugelmin, Hockenhull, Hiss, Haberfeld, Heger, Jarier, Bubby Jones, Johncox, Kite, Lemarie, Luyendyk Sr, Migeot, Marrable, Mezger, Menninga, Rhodes, Reeves, Sassetti, Sandro Sala, N Simon, tamburini, Tuttle, J Unser, Vasser, Van Hooydonk, Villaamil, Witmeur

New Information
Joe Baker - almost his full details, bar day of death
Burt - full death details (corrected birthplace)
Horan - date of death
Marozzo- date of birth
B Wilson - place of birth

Deaths
Montgomerie-Charrington

New Names
M Halliday, Yamashina

Other
Continued refreshing, corrected incorrect years for some Indianapolis drivers, added all those confirmed for Indy 500 to either correct area or put "2007" in entry & have updated GP total for 2007 drivers.

Thanks
Ademm, Allen Brown, Barry Boor, Neil Smith, Haine Kane, ReWind, Rick Kelly

ReWind's Date Section
J Baker b. 28/7/1905 d. May 1985
Horan d. 16 Sep 1932


Thanks again, for all continued help with this...

I'm not sure if these things have been discussed already, but I recently bought the Duke Nalon biog "The Iron Duke", and it contains a few items of which I remember two:

- Frankie Beeder crashed the Duray during a qualifying attempt in 1938, and was then replaced by McQuinn after the car was repaired. Seems Duray had a soft spot for reigning AAA Eastern Champions, for besides Beeder and Johnny Hannon in 1935, he also offered his car to Nalon in '39!

- Mel Hansen's birth date is given in the form of "died just xx days from his xxth birthday", but damn if I remember the dates! At least I recall that it confirmed my suspicion and he was way younger than in Richie's data. I'll try to remember the dates next time, or else: Richie, could you please check on him again?

After a bit of digging by Jim Thurman, there is one other possibility. However this fellow died over a month before his birthday, rather than days. (32 days in fact)

b. 7/7/1911, South Dakota d.5/6/63, San Bernandino, CA.

There doesn't seem anything to confirm it one way or another, to be honest, but I would admit this new find "fits" as much as the original (or mine) does.

Thanks Richie

I have a feeling this is the fellow we're looking for. It's down to finding an obituary.

Sorry I was not able to get to this earlier, between illness, other projects and just trying to have a life...I'm pleased at whatever help I've been. Hansen is one of the only entries of yours I had doubts about. The rest look fine.

Imagine how odd it was for me to have discovered that Mel Hansen spent the last several years of his life in the same small town I was living in at the time.

granted, I lived there from 4 to 7 years old...

@Richie: What about Steve Hostetler?16 Jul 1958 or 24 Nov 1942?

Well, it's hard to argue with such detailed information straight from the CART press kit, to be honest.
Although I can't find any corrobating evidence, I'm prepared to accept it. The only thing I could find out about Hostetler is that he appeared to be from Washington State, but that was about it, and took the date that seemed to obviously fit with all the given information. After all, I didn't expect him to be over 40 when he raced.

But it's much more in depth, with wife, SCCA info etc. I'll change it.

By the way, I checked and Hostetler appears to still be alive.

Richie, there was a period in CART where there were several wealthy amateurs, much like IMSA. I followed racing very closely at the time and some of these drivers were complete unknowns to me, I had no idea of their backgrounds.

Mel Hansen:

This is the quote from the Nalon book (verbatim): Hansen "passed away on June 5, 1963, six days shy of his 52nd birthday." I would say this pretty much confirms Jim's find, and the age is much closer to his career path and his looks on the various photographs I've seen of him. Settled?

Jimmy Davies:

I really hate to bring this up again, but just as I was ready to accept his 1929 birthdate I find a 1953 source saying he's 28 and started racing in 1945! You know, I always held the belief that he looked older, both at the beginning and end of his career, but recently I came to think that his drafting in connection with the Korea war supported the '29 birthyear!

But, maybe it's an avenue worth investigating - what were his chances to be drafted if he was born in '25? We know he spent most of 1952 in Korea, but the only other driver that I'm aware of doing service is Jerry Hoyt, although he didn't get further than Germany, apparently.

What about the other young hotshoes? Troy Ruttman was even younger, or did his forged pass allow him tom slip past the war department as well??? AFAIK, in racing circles only Agajanian knew his real age. Jimmy Reece?

Older than Hoyt, but "possibly" younger than Davies: Jim Rathmann (another one with a forged pass), Marv Pifer, Pat O'Connor, Elmer George, Bill Mackey, Eddie Sachs, Bob Scott, Dempsey Wilson, Jimmy Bryan, Al Herman, Jim McWithey, Charlie Musselman, Pat Flaherty, Gene Hartley, Dick Rathmann, Bob Sweikert, Larry Crockett, Wally Campbell, Ed Elisian, Ralph Liguori, Johnny Boyd, Joe James, Bobby Ball, Johnny Federicks, Sid Bufkin, Pete Folse, Eddie Russo, Don Freeland - all active during war years, why weren't THEY drafted???

No other young drivers joined the big car ranks until the Unser brothers, Billy Garrett, Johnny White, Ronnie Duman, Bob Cleberg etc. in 1955. Anyone with some insight into this?

Johnny Roberts:

This is a difficult one, because there were at least two drivers with this name driving big cars in the fifties, and the NASCAR modified driver that Richie lists may be yet another...

As far as I can figure it out, there was one from Michigan who drove mainly sprint cars, and one from Illinois who drove mainly midgets. Following the lead of the Midget Hall of Fame, I call them John Roberts (the Michigan sprint car driver) and Johnny Roberts (the Illinois midget driver) to seperate them, but that doesn't help in research because you'll find both drivers listed under both names in contemporary reports and results!

John Roberts apparently started racing late forties/early fifties, and I have him competing in CSRA "Class B" sprint cars, where he placed 3rd and 8th in final "Silver Crown" points in 1952 and 1956, respectively. In the latter year, he started competing in the Midwest circuit of USAC sprints, where he scored points in four successive years, with a career high of 15th in final points in 1959. He also competed in USAC midgets, but without scoring points. His place of residence is listed as Breckenridge, Wheeler or Saginaw, all in Michigan. No date of birth or death. This driver apparently never competed under AAA, and thus he's NOT "our" man.

Johnny Roberts was born in Chicago, started racing indoor midgets in the area (probably under CARC sanction) before WW2, joined AAA in 1951 and ran AAA or USAC midgets for the next dozen years, with four feature wins in all and a career high of 30th in National points in 1951, also placing 2nd and 3rd in USAC Indoor championships in 1959 and 1958, respectively (his early training coming in fine use here!). He was later to become the official flagman for the USAC midget division. Place of residence listed as Harvey, IL or Lansing, also IL - at least that's what I've read! Is there a Lansing in Illinois, or is it a mistake and should read Michigan, in which case I'm in trouble... . Nevertheless, this IS "our" man.

He took one stab at big car driving, and that was with fellow Chicago citizen William P. Burns in 1953. They ran virtually a full season without making the feature more than once or twice. In a 1953 program(me) he was listed as a 37-year-old living in Harvey, IL with his wife Jeannette and his six-year-old daughter. If that isn't enough to help you identify him, perhaps it'll help you to know that he was 5'8" tall and weighed 172 lbs

The same report does also cast some doubtful light on his Indy participation, and it may be that he and the #82 Burns Special never actually hit the track, although it has to be said that they are listed with a qualification time at Milwaukee just a week after Indy, so why should they have been idle for the whole month of May? Maybe the car wasn't finished in time? According to the Harms database, the car was a Kurtis 2000, but a photograph in Wallen's "Fabulous Fifties", p303, refutes this. The picture isn't awfully good for identification, but the car doesn't look anything like new, let alone modern, and it's even possible that it had a rail frame. I definitely need more on this one!

So, Richie, the decision is yours whether to modify or remove the entry. :\

Davies did start racing either in late 1945 or in 1946. The track was Ash Can Derby, east of San Bernardino, California which was notoriously an "outlaw" track. In doing research back in the mid-1980's, I ran across Davies in 1946 results from Ash Can Derby.

It's not inconceivable that Davies was only 15 or 16 when he started racing there, why?, because that's exactly what Troy Ruttman did!

I saw an interview with Ruttman where he mentioned being in high school (in Lynwood) and someone telling him there was a place "out past San Bernardino" where you could race and they didn't check ages. Interesting that four drivers in your list began their racing careers at Ash Can Derby.

Perhaps that Davies "looked older" helped him get away with all of this.

As far as why the others weren't drafted, who knows? 4F perhaps? Are you certain Davies and Hoyt were drafted?, or did they enlist rather than being drafted?

Good job Michael

I wondered about the NASCAR Modified driver and the multiple Johnny Roberts. I simply did not have enough (or in some cases any) bio material on them to sort it out. Well done.

Michael/Jim:

Johnny Roberts first.

Do we know for sure the one I currently list is definitively NOT the Johnny Roberts? And do we know for sure that this Roberts then made no attempt to qualify? If the answer is yes and yes, then modification or removal is what I'll do.
I did notice that there was a chance it might be the "other" Johnny Roberts, but myself have found nothing to prove fully that to be the case?

Thus, I'm poised to change or remove if need be.

I know ChampCarStats.com feels it's the Saginaw one and has no time for qualification but for now, I'll await further clarification.


Jimmy Davies:

SSDI says 1929. So does the Californian Birth Index - here .

I understand where you're coming from with this & the dates of war/early racing etc. but the fact that the two support each other, well, I just have to go with it....

The case of Jimmy Davies has been settled, I think.

His stepson confirmed the 1929 birthdate some years ago.

(If you re-read that thread you'll know why I remembered that one...)

So that's why you're called Rewind.

I concur completely that Davies is settled.

The listing in the California Birth Index was corroborated by Richie's checking the 1930 census and finding a match for a 1 year old in Glendale. Not so for any 5 year olds.

In my previous post, I left the "nuts and bolts" to Richie, instead choosing to focus on the other issues brought up by fines. fines, I hope it was at least interesting and went toward possibly answering some of it for you.

Now, if we could only find a way for the American media to know that Scott Dixon was not the youngest winner of a major U.S. open wheel series race prior to Marco Andretti.

Slightly unusual WATN update this time. Basically, I've been scrolling through the Indianapolis 500 records to see if there's anyone who should be included but isn't - not including those who never appeared or never passed the rookie test.

... and there were quite a few.

So the bulk of this update is the new guys but there's some other bits & pieces too...

WATN 2007 Season
John & Michael Andretti, Aganthelou, Franchitti, Moreno, Pirro, Sarrazin, Yasukawa

WATN - General
W Crawford, A Johnson, MacDowel, Needell, Sweigert, Tomita

New Information
Ascanelli, Filhol, Pedersoli- birthplace
Belcher, Stirano - birthdate
Dalmas, WH Frey, Gelnaw*, McKee - change of birthplace (* Gelnaw's death state added as well & WATN)
Devigne, N Larson, L Wilson - full details
Mel Hansen - birth & death details amended
Hostetler - birth details amended
Nellemann - name changed after confirmation from Jac himself, via Peter Higham.
Robert Schroeder - full death details, place of birth added & year of birth amended.
Thiele - nationality changed

Deaths
Frank Beardsley, at 81 yrs of age.

New Names
FULL DETAILS - Jay Abney, Steve Ball, Guy Ball, Earle Canavan, Jack Conely, Ed Finley, Harry Falt, William "Tee" Linn, L.A. Lariviere, Lothar Motschenbacher, Reeves Dutton, Louis Schwitzer, Bill Sockwell, Colby Scroggin, Al Smith, Sam Swank, Jean Trevoux, Sebastian Vettel

PARTIAL DETAILS - Paul Butler, Fred Fansin, Mervin Headley, James Klemos

NO DETAILS - Charles Arnold, Tom Mulligan, Bob Wallace


Other
Amended Constantino Jr's full name.
Amended CART from 2004 onwards to CCWS. Put both Indy 500 & F1 current totals to the new updated amount.
Made a few minor edits in participation years to some Indy 500 drivers.

Thanks
Gerr, David Holland, Peter Higham, Sal "Muzza" Chiappetta, Jim Thurman, Malvi, Rewind, Gordon White, Axlex

I already sent a PM to Richie but perhaps the following is of common interest on this forum.

I found a more specific birth place than "Silesia" for Louis Schwitzer on this site although the spelling there ("Belietz") obviously is wrong. In Austrian Silesia there was a town called Bielitz (nowadays Bielsko-Biała, Poland) which was nick-named „Little Vienna“ at the time Schwitzer was born there.

Superb thread! Apparently I missed this one originally... or clean forgot about it! So alright, Davies is settled - at least until the next fit of amnesia...

Re Johnny Roberts: Yes and no! I think it's safe to assume that the info about his age and career in the 1953 race program(me) is at least partly correct, i.e. he was either 37 or at least started racing before the war, or was an Illini (sp?) - either way he's not the one you have listed. About his Indy participation, I really don't know: I have a hard time believing he did not practice at all, but took part at Milwaukee first week in June! Anyone with a 1953 Yearbook?

I must admit there is nothing since my last post to support Johnny Roberts who's on there now with THIS Johnny Roberts. I'm happy to change that.

Tell you what, I'll remove him altogether for now & then if it is found he DID appear add him "again", but obviously with the correct info. There seems some considerable doubt about his participation, more than many others, so I'll err on the side of no, until proven otherwise.

From the second bedroom of an apartment in Oklahoma City:

While researching Harry C. Knight, I have found an article in The Indianapolis Star, Saturday morning, 05 July 1913, pages 1 and 15, reporting on the death of Harry Knight which states that he was born on 06 August 1889 "at Jonesboro, Ind."

The U. S. Census reports of 1900 and 1910 also state that Harry Knight was born in Indiana. (The 1890 U. S. Census reports were destroyed by a fire.)

Harry's father, William, burned to death ~1909; his mother remarried, but was separated, living with a friend in Indianapolis.

The content of the news article appears to be based on direct interviews by the reporter with close friends of the family. The facts offered appear to be reliable.

At the time of his death he was employed as superintendant of the service department of the Cole Motor Company in Atlanta, Georgia. J. J. Cole, the president of the company had contacted authorities at the Columbus race track to "spare no expense in properly caring for the body". Knight was held in great esteem as a trusted employee of Cole's company.

The funeral was held at the home of Mrs. John A. Harrison, with burial at Westfield next to Knight's father.

- - - -

I am working on Harry Knight's pages, which will be updated within a week.
Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City, OK
Motorsport Memorial

Rick, thanks for this. I already had the birthdate, but had Atlanta as his place of birth. Will be changed as forthwith as possible.

Regarding George Barringer -

Can you describe the source which states he was born in Parsons, Kansas?

I am communicating with several people who are questioning this information. We don't have a definitive response yet, but it seems probable that he was born in Texas, either San Antonio or Wichita Falls.

One person has been to the Parsons library, but could not find anyone named Barringer in the Parsons city directory from 1900 to 1910.

George Barringer does not show up in the Texas Death Index, 1903-1997, but it will not be the first time that there has been an oversight in this source, especially before 1910.

It seems that Barringer had a longer career in racing than George Robson, who was killed in the same accident as Barringer, but Robson had more "ink" because he had been a winner at the Indy 500 a few months earlier.

Comments from anyone, please?

Rick Kelly
Motorsport Memorial
Oklahoma City

His son, Bill, has recently confirmed to me via a mutual friend that he was born in Texas, Rick. Wichita Falls, as it happens. Sorry for the previous information but I think you take family confirmation as pretty conclusive.

In order to reanimate the Johnny Roberts saga may I direct your attention to this (needs a little bit of scrolling):

"Our Noige" has sold Woodbury Park. According to the Express & Echo story, he apparently doesn't have a house in Devon any more either. I wonder where that leaves his kart track at Dunkeswell?

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode....tentPK=18648850

Well, this has actually been the longest period without an update, I think, since WATN "started" in 2002, about four months! Increased work committments & a relatively quiet summer news-wise are the main reason why but I hope the wait is worth it for some with some more "mysteries" solved;

WATN 07/08 Updates
Andre, Albers, Andrews, Allmendinger, Bigois, Button, Barrichello, Bert, Bourdais, Brunner, Boldrini, Carpentier, Coughlan, E Cheever, Caceres, Corradi, de Ferran, Dixon, Dernie, Ekblom, del Monte, Firman, Franchitti, Frentzen, Gavin, Giovanardi, Glock, Giebler, Gabbiani, Hunter-Reay, Herbert, Hancock, Jourdain jr, Katayama, Jani, Kite, B Lazier, Luyendyjk jr, Montoya, McNish, Y Muller, McQuilliam, Mikola, C Murphy, D Martinez, Mazzacane, Morbidelli, Panis, N Phillippe, B Rice, G Rahal, Pizzonia, Rager, Pastorelli, J Robinson, M Schumacher, Simmons, Speed, Schiattarella, Sauvage, B Smith, T Stewart, R Schumacher, Steiner, Tracy, Theys, Tarquini, J Villeneuve jr, Wheldon, Viso, Wurz, Webber, Willis, Vettel, Wirth A, Yamamoto

General WATN updates
Adams, Ashley, Gil Anderson, Antonioli, Arundell, Briatore, J Bailey, T Bell, O Andersson, Bechem, B Brack, Disbrow, Donnelly, de Vries, Ecclestone, Filhol, Facetti, C Fabi, Freon, C Gardner, F Gardner, Grouillard, Gentry, Guieros, Gomez, Halsmer, Hahne, P Hill (not good news, I'm afraid) , Davy Jones, Lehto, Mansell, G Murray, McWithey, Migault, McGarrity, Naspetti, Renzetti, D Richards, Surtees, Shepherd, Trimmer, Tredozi, Vlassopulos, R Wilson, Zanardi

New Information
Amended or New Birthplaces for: Gil Anderson, Antionioli, Akagi, I Burgess, Barringer, Bellamy (partial), Calloway, H Knight, P Rice, Rinland, Schwitzer, Shanebrook, Swanson, Saylor, Thiele, Wonderlich, B Wilson, Vlassopulos

Death Places for: Gil Anderson, McGuire (amended), H Ormsby

FULL Birth & Death details for: Bott, H Lewis
FULL death details for: R Beardsley, Buxton, Bellentani, Clemens, Pens
FULL birth details for: Babcock, Jay Hill
Amended birth date for: Clemens, Disbrow
FULL amended Birth & Death details for: Curtner, Rusch, Sockwell
Partial death details for: Kraus
Partial birth details for: Renzetti

NEW ENTRIES
Lloyd, Mutoh, Mallya, K Nakajima, Markus Winkelhock

OUT OF LISTS
J Roberts - for now, anyway....

OTHERS
A number of bios have been updated to reflect that the GPM series is now defunct.
Thanks to a number of instances of "user error" by myself, and solely myself, a few strange things appeared on the website - Tom Mulligan, Indy racer of 1922, appeared in the F3000 driver list & poor old Hans Klenk was removed completely!! (now restored to rightful places).
I must also thank Bob Lawrence, who noted that anyone born in the first 15 years of the 20th century were now showing as being born between 2000-2015! It's now fixed, but thanks to Bob for his diligence & good eyesight!
Finally, all GP totals have been updated up to & including Saturday's Brazillian GP qualifying.

THANKS
Big to Bob Lawrence, Richard Armstrong, Haine Kane, Adam Ferrington, Don Radbruch (and his copy of Who's Who of Auto Racing), Donald Davidson, Rick Kelly, Allen Brown, Jim Petty, Bill Barringer, Hipperson & Paul Taylor.


To Rewind, many apologies, my friend, I have misplaced the date updates sheet for this update. I do hope you don't mind, just this once, doing it the long way round.

In my opinion, Eugene W. "Jud" Larson was born in Grand Prairie, TEXAS.

You can't get to Grand Prairie, Missouri, from anyplace. It doesn't exist.

1930 U. S. Census shows Eugene Larson, 8, living in Austin, Texas, shown to have been born in Texas.

He does not show up in the Texas Birth Index, but he is not the only one not to show.

His parents were Oscar Sigfrid and Ebba Larson.

They were also born in Texas, but their parents were born in Sweden.

Jud is buried at Capital Memorial Park, Pflugerville, Travis County, Texas.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City

Thanks Rick for clearing that up!

I should be back online sometime next week or so, expect me to come up with a few more variations to birth dates and places of US drivers, and some new names I have now confirmed as Indy rookie test takers (Richie will hate me for this... :\ )

Most probably.

I'm confused now. I thought I didn't include people that only took rookie tests and no more in my lists? Or did I change the rules? I know my memory is failing, but it's really something when I can't remember what my own criteria for my own database is!

It seems your brain's working better than mine, or at least my attention - I clean forgot about that! Well, in that case I'll find something else to annoy you...

How about: Gary Congdon being born in Madison, WI instead of California? He also appears to have started racing there. And Ronnie Duman I find listed both as born on Dec 2 and Feb 12, but 1931 in each case! How sure are you about 1929?

fines, nice to see you here again.

Ronnie Duman's 1929 comes from the Social Security Death Index, and I believe that is one I sent off to Richie.

I would go with Congdon being born in Wisconsin over California. Also, Palermo, California seems a very unlikely place (Richie, I was going to point this one out earlier, but as with some of the others, I lost my place when I took ill :\ )

What the heck fines, find a place to post the rookie testers DOB's as well. How about one of the "birthdates" threads? I'm sure ReWind and myself both would be interested.

Will do, will do... but I have a heck of a backlog here, I can tell you! I've been offline for what, three years or so, and only on-line again since 3 hours! I need to get organized again...

Delighted to hear that you're back Michael!

Allen

In reply to Gary Congdon, I was talking to a friend of mine a few days back about him, and it seems that supposedely he moved to Wisconsin from California to race, mainly at Angell Park, one of America's finest midget facilities.

Michael, I would too, like to see the names for the rookie tests - if only as it will allow me to tie it in with any profiles, or, quite simply, solve my curiosity about such fellows. It's a particulary pericular category of racers.

Also, of course, it may lead me to solving the other mysteries, as sometimes these things are want to do - I've only solved the likes of Ralph Beardsley & John Vance, both long gone.


Any correct info is never an annoyance. I'll change Congdon in the next update.

I have not been able to find anything in the California Birth Index to prove that Gary Congdon was born in Palermo, California.

Most of my sources state that he was a "native" of Whitewater, Wisconsin.

The Social Security Death Index indicated that Gary obtained his SS card in Wisconsin when he was ~15.

Gary's page in Motorsport Memorial was prepared by someone other than me. I have reviewed the information, edited the pages, and compiled a list of newspaper articles about Gary's accident.

One article, from the AP, printed in the Winona (WI) Daily News, Monday, 25 September 1967, states "... Congdon, 30, a native of Palmyra, Wis., and a former resident of Whitewater ...".

In my opinion, this statement rings true on several counts.

Palmyra sounds like Palermo, and it would be illogical to believe Gary was born in Sicily, therefore, since he was living in Garden Grove, California, he must be from Palermo, California.

Palmyra is seven miles from Whitewater.

So, with a small chip on my shoulder, I challenge anyone to prove that Gary Condon was born anywhere other than in (or very near) Palmyra, Wisconsin.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City

From forum http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/ (member - dinamoabc)

Fritz D'Orey lives in Rio de Janeiro. He still works with computers (he is a Unix and Linux expert). He tried a motorsport return, on mid-80's, in a brazilian stock cars, but he did only a test, for a magazine.

I met up with Fritz D'Orey in 1998 when he decided to have a fling in the Ferrari Challenge and appeared at Enna for the final round with a Ferrari 355. Herewith.

I was mailed the following on Ricardo Londono by an American gentleman:

Although I don't have Londono on my database, for the same reasons I don't include de Bagration etc., it's good to know a little bit more about what happened to him after racing.

The one I am really puzzled about is Alberto Colombo. I don't know anything about him from.. ooh... mid 80's onwards....

Don Freeland, the former Indianapolis 500 racer, has died, after a long period of ill-health.

Another one gone

I had missed the sad news of Don Freeland's passing .

On a happier note a friend (Jean-Philippe Campmajo for the record) forwarded me the following link. DJ Raùl Boesel lol !

Kind of off topic but I think it is pretty neat that some of the forgotten are popping up:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...:MEWA:IT&ih=019

A lot of work went into this one.

Gents,

Comes the great skeptic -

Trying to track down Carl Limberg's dob, I discovered that the Carl Limberg of PA was still alive in 1920.

There were several Carl Limbergs, in addition, but none seemed to fit the profile of his career.

The New York City Death Index Results, compiled by the Italian Genealogical Group, showed:

Carl Limberg - - died 13 May 1916 in Kings County.

Some of the newspaper reports about Carl Limberg mentioned that he had moved to NY from San Jose, CA, eight years prior to his fatal accident.

They also mentioned that he was a nationally known bicycle racer who was from San Jose, CA.

Found a Carl Limberger in the 1900 Census in San Jose. Right age.

Looked at the photocopy of the census report. There were some markings at the end of Limberg**. Checked the 1910 Census, and same parents, Albert and Cora V. were actually Limberg! Not Limberger.

The 1900 Census states that Carl Limberg (corrected name), was born in Iowa, in July 1883.

Father, Albert, was born in "central PA", of parents who were born in Germany.

Mother, Cora V., was born in Iowa, of parents who were born in PA and OH.

Carl had an older sister, Lula, also born in Iowa, in May, 1880.

Albert and Cora are found in the 1880 Census, in Cedar, Benton County, Iowa, with daughter born in May of 1880, where Albert was employed as a farmer.

- - - -

Therefore, in my opinion,

Carl Limberg
born in Iowa, USA
born in July 1883.
died in New York City, Kings County, NY
died on 13 May 1916.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City, OK

Rick, sterling work again debunking the originally considered opinions!

This link backs you up, whilst also revealing his full date of birth & place of birth as Mt. Auburn, Iowa on the 6th July 1883. This Limberg has disappeared, as it were, by 1920...

No question about it - this is our man.

Harry Harkness had sent Carl to France to purchase three Delage race cars to run at Sheepshead Bay.

Carl died in one of them.

Thanks for the additional info.

Rick Kelly
Olahoma City