Richie, sorry but I think you have the wrong Sam Palmer, that possible?

If your data was right, he would have won his first big race in Nevada the day he turned 19, and you would expect at least some papers to comment on his age, or rather the lack of it. He won quite regularly in 1926 already, but never a word about "boy wonder" and the like, highly unusual if true. I have also found a picture of him that year, and he doesn't look at all like a teenager. Add to that the fact that his obituary in 1934 mentioned his age as 30, which sounds more likely. Comments?

Thanks for the bit about the middle name and his birth name, which I never knew, but else you're wrong!

[nit-picker mode]

He changed the spelling of his surname only after retiring from racing, so the name of the racing driver is (and has always been) Eddie Rickenbacher!

;)

[/nit-picker mode]

Firstly, Rickenbacher - Donald Davidson said keep it as it is, but admitted it isn't clear. Do you go by the racer name or his original name? This has happened before, so I'm mindful of changing it again, unless someone can prove otherwise?

Michael, re. Palmer
Possibly, yes.

At the moment, although it is a very slow process, as I am doing a million things at once, I am checking all those "question marks" - these are people who I have information for, that I need to 100% guarantee are the right people - 95% of them definitely are, but I think there's 3% that are wrong, and 2% in which it will always be inconclusive but the guess is strongly educated.

I will need your help, and probably Jim's, Ricks & anyone else who I think can help with it - Reinhard might be good too - but I need to clear a few other workloads first!

Palmer is on that list, and I'll have a look at him in due course. Before anyone mentions it, I definitely have the wrong Waldo Stein (although with all of these, I can only go on educated guesses - when told he is Waldo E Stein from Indianapolis - and with very little information at the time, it's fair to go from who I did). Now there's more research tools & I now know he was E. Waldo Stein from LA, I have the right man...

I'll have a look today or tomorrow & see what I can rummage.

The Los Angeles Times, November 25, 1923

P.S. Also, I have him as Wallace (not Walter) Butler.

Excellent, Michael - thanks - I shall now see what I can do with that information & see if a death date can be added. The newspapers surprise me - I hope there are more like that, it makes life easier!

As I've had loads to do, I haven't looked at Palmer yet, but he's on a 300 strong list of those I want to "quadruple check", so I'll let you know when I do.

I've also sorted out Louis Fontaine (Fountaine) once & for all, so even if my life's work ends up solely sorting out Indianapolis driver mysteries, there might be a few less in future!

The same article also had Ernie Olson's details, if you're interested: he was on the original entry list, probably on the second Miller 183/122 of Martin de Alzaga, the car Jimmy Murphy had raced at Monza.

Richie, may I divert your attention for a moment to another thread, http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php...174#post3398174, where I'm on the prowl for more info on some US drivers, some of which never competed at Indy. Taking for example Monk Tadlock, where I have lots of info but no handle since "Monk" appears to have been a nickname. Perhaps you can help?

Try "Roy M. Tadlock on for size. Same brothers, mother Sallie, was a widow in 1930.

17 in 1930, 7 in 1920, same brothers, same names.

1930 and 1920 U. S. Census reports.

K

Was in a hurry, Michael - water was boiling in kitchen.

In 1930 Roy M. Tadlock was employed as a special delivery messenger for the post office.

K

Born 1912-04-26, died 1993-02-01.

Back to (almost) Grand Prix drivers for a while... Joe Saward at grandprix.com challenged us at 8W to find out whatever happened to Ricardo Londoño after he quit racing in 1985.

Seems like a nice enough challenge, but in case we come up with nothing we'll let you have a go as well...

I was occupied with that just last week.

Here is what I have been able to find:

He seems to still be involved in motorsport, you can see it here:

http://www.suramericana.com/Publicacion%5C...RegMedellin.pdf

I've also seen him referred to as "zx300 twin turbo de cuchilla londono", which is his nickname. There is also a phone and a fax number there - someone equipped with some Spanish knowledge and/or a fax machine might well give it a try.

According to WATN, Frank Farmer was born in 1892, in Philadelphia.

According to a longer article about the man in the Syracuse Herald (May 7, 1932), he was "too young to enlist" in WW1! Other titbits from the article: orphaned at age 3, at age 15 "a Wheeling doctor sent him to the Nashville Bible School to start his studies for the ministry", worked in a shipyard during WW1, raced motorcycles following the war.

From my own research he was a regular of the NMRA from 1926 onwards, middle initial M., hometown always given as Philadelphia. Motorsport Memorial has his birth place as Benwood (WV), and birth year either 1894 or 1900. Btw, the bit about the World Speed Records on MM as well as WATN is nonsense, based on a couple of Langhorne track records that were touted, typically for the period, as world records!

Yep - Farmer's another "checkable" I have to do this year.

I have been majorly, majorly held up with all this, Michael - but I will look at all this as soon as I am able - I'm determined to get it right once & for all.

Latest on Jody Scheckter:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/agricultu...amic-field.html

Interesting reading - I knew that he has been into sustainable farming for some time now, but didn't quite realise the size of his enterprise, or the extent of research he is involved in. Good luck to him.

Thanks for correcting my dyslexic fingers, Alan
I've now done the same

Michael, first of all - Frank Farmer - I agree that the 1892 man is not the one. However, I'm not convinced the 1900 chap is either just yet. I'll look more into this in a bit more detail later on.

There will be another thread to support this being started shortly but for now, there is another latest update. This has got in too late for Mayer's death, Willie Ferguson's death info & my Rob Schroeder mistake, but there is still a bit of new information.

2008/2009 WATN
Allmendinger, Angelelli, Aganthelou, Bouchut, Bartels, Bouillon, Brawn, Button, Berger, Castroneves, da Matta, Doornbos, Earle, Figge, S Fisher, Fushida, Garcia, Gascoyne, Gommendy, Haywood, Herbert, Holloway, Henzler, J Kane, Kruseman, Liuzzi, M Lauda, J Leffler, Leinders, Lavaggi, Lagorce, Y Muller, Morbidelli, Monteiro, Magnussen, J Muller, Nakamoto, N Phillippe, Panis, Pirro, Piquet Jr, Pagenaud, Papis, Perera, Perkins, Prost, Pastorelli, Power, Reynard, Rinland, Richards D, Sutil, Shank, G Smith, Swindell, van der Poele, Viso, Valiante, J Villeneuve Jr, Vasser, Wiggins, Wheldon, Wallace, Wilds, M Wilson, Walkinshaw, Wendlinger, Yeley, Yoong, Yamamoto, Zanardi, Zonta

General WATN
Adams, Ates, Blundell, W Butler, Conely, Coulthard, Carlson, Croceri, Chandler W, Eaton, W Dallenbach, de Vries, Davidson F, Feast, Fontaine, Gitto, Glotzbach, Haywood, Hakkinen, Hockenhull, Jasper, Johncock, Jordan, Kennedy, Karch, Kay, Katayama, McRae, Moran C, McKee, Murray, Nursey, Pennebaker, Palmroth, Paul Jr, Perrot, Robarts, Ruby, Ressler, J Richards, Saleen, Skaife, Simoni, Shnaider, Shelby, Santal, Slater, Schenken, Tesini, Till, Voulaz, Walter, Whitesides, van Connett, Walkup, Zunino

DIED
Kay, Perrot, Tingle

NEW
Mrk Smith, Whitmarsh, Buemi, R Phillippe

NEW INFO
Birthdate details: Coffey, W Butler, Clemens (month), Day, Greiner (month), H Hunt, Mattson, Snyder, Theisen
Deathdate details: Delaney, Day, Fontaine, H Hunt, Kalen, Mais (year)
Birthplace details: W Butler, Ellis, De Vries, Day, H Hunt, Mattson, Snyder
Deathplace details: Delaney, Day, Fontaine, Gaudino, H Hunt, Kalen

CHANGED INFO
Birthplace: Ellis, Burbach, F Davidson, De Vries, C Hill, Kay, C Moran, Mk Mosley, Monahon, M Roberts, Stein, Shambuagh, Wolf
Deathplace: Burbach, Hansen, F Davidson, De Vries, C Moran, Stein
Birthdate: Ellis, Burbach, F Davidson, De Vries, C Hill, Kay, C Moran, M Roberts, Stein

OTHER
GP totals updated by one to end of season.

THANKS
Rewind, Rick Kelly, Jim Thurman, Peter Higham, Michael Ferner, Daivd Birchall, Frank Verplanken, Richard Armstrong, Chris Romano

BTW..death date of Luki Botha is not correct. Pretorious is not the correct spelling. Tingle's place of death is not Cape Town.

Re. Ernest Pieterse...Parow and Bellville are two different places, so one must be omitted.

Sorry, H.

I was led to believe by news reports that Tingle died there. Also, in the thread announcing his death, it clearly states "I am very sorry to inform you that the Zimbabwean Formula One driver Sam Tingle passed away peacefully in Cape Town this morning, aged 87". The Independent on Saturday of South Africa also says Cape Town.

Where did Sam die? Was it Somerset West or somewhere else?

Should Luki Botha's deathdate be the 1st October? The 17th came loosely from a news report, saying he died " a couple of days ago", but I guess the news feed might've be wrong?

Advice on the above would be great.

Yes, Sam died in Somerset West. He lived there the last couple of years. SW is about 50km from Cape Town. Botha is indeed 1 October.
Note the right spelling of PRETORIUS. Blame it on the "English", they say "pretorious". You'll also notice the latter (incorrect) spelling in publications.

Time to add another correction of a long repeated error:

Joe Boyer, Jr. was born in St. Louis, Missouri, on 30 May 1889.

Source: 1917 Draft Registration Card.

The card also stated that he was 28 years old at the time he registered - on 05 June 1917.

Another interesting statement from his registration -

He was a self-employed mechanic, as the "owner, Frontenac Motor Co. of Plainfield, N. J.".

This might seem a surprise for fans of the Chevrolet brothers.

This is not as improbable as it may seem. Joe was independently wealthy from his family's business interests. And he may have been the financial backer of the Chevrolet Brothers in the Frontenac enterprise. Joe's death in 1924 might explain why the Frontenac gradually vanished from racing - but I am guessing about this, not being especially well informed on race cars and their origins.

Joe Boyer, Sr., and sons, along with William S. Burroughs, were the founders and owners of the Burroughs Adding Machine Company. Joe Sr. was also the inventor of the first successful pneumatic hammer, from which was founded the Chicago Pneumatic Tool Company of . . . Detroit. At the time of his death he was chairman of the board of the Burroughs Adding Machine Company.

The Burroughs Company was founded in St. Louis, MO, but was moved to Detroit, MI, in 1904. The Boyer family apparently moved there, from which decades later people assumed that Joe, Jr., was a "native" of Detroit.

Joe Jr. also signed his application for a U. S. Passport on 16 March 1920. His age was stated to be 30. Birthplace was St. Louis, MO.

But the application also stated his date of birth to be "30 day of May 1 890". Joe may not have noticed the mistake because of the way the year was typed on the application. If he was 30, he would have had to have been born in 1889.

The papers may have been prepared by his older brother, Frank Haskell Boyer, and he may have been the source of the incorrect year of birth.

- - - -

The draft registration was prepared in the presence of the applicant, and was signed by Joe. In my opinion the draft registration is more reliable than the passport application.

The occasion for his need for a passport was a race in Cuba. I could not find any newspaper reference to that race, if there was one.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City

Thanks both - Boyer had been on my "to check" list, as had Botha, as it happened, so thanks for that. Both will be added, as will all of them, for the next update next month

Harvey M. Kleopfer was born in Hope, Kansas, according to his WW-I Draft Registration Card. His wife's name was Laura. The couple were living in Ramona, Kansas, on 05 June1918, where he was self-employed as a machine shop operator.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City, OK

What I would like to know: is Harvey M. Kleopfer really Barney Kloepfer????

I believe so, but I'll have to check my source again. There obviously had to be a reason why H M Kleopfer was the one chosen, but I'll need to check why.


It's, however, still on the no shorter list of loads of things to do. Please bear with me Michael, I'll try & get these sorted.

Barney apparently was the nickname of Harvey, but the surname is correct as Kleopfer.

Newspapers spelled the surname as Kloepfer, but there is no indication that Harvey willingly changed his name to conform to the newspapers' version.

The Fresno Bee got it right on 21 September 1927 about his entry in a sprint car race.

He was running a strong second place as Moore's replacement driver, from 275 miles to 475 miles (Meyer held him to third place until mechanical problems slowed him). Two laps from the end K pulled into the pits while in second place with mechanical problems; Moore took the wheel again, but wasn't able to make a full lap to the finish line. By the rules of the time, because he wasn't running at the finish, he ended in 13th place. Even if K had finished the race in second place, Moore would have gotten the credit as the starting driver.

Rick Kleopplelly
Oklahoma City

Just got this flyer in the mail. It is Ligier's current production line.

Cheers Arjan - he's still keeping quite busy, I understand, on all accounts!

The funny thing was that when I was posting my scan of their flyer, a Ligier was parked next to my house. Coincidence or Ligier is selling fast in Holland

Some bad news:



Source

Richie, noticed something by chance: you have "Tee" Linn dying at Langhorne on August 11 in 1934, but he didn't! He was seriously injured, though, and basically stopped racing then, although it is said that he tried a comeback at least once. The new Langhorne book says that he died in 1974, but I'm not sure that is right: I found a William Linn in the SSDI - well, dozens actually - and I picked one born on February 7 in 1911 as the most likely candidate, as he matches the age given in contemporary reports, and his year of demise is not that far off, but it is only a guess! Press reports often quote a wrong age!!

By the way, "Tee Linn" was not a pseudonym to trick his family, as he was actually known as "Tee" from early childhood, and Linn was his real family name (not Lynn, which you also find sometimes). Other info from the Langhorne book: middle name Francis, youngest of four sons, parents George Russell Linn and Mildred Alsip (daughter of the owner of the Alsip Brick Co. in Chicago), owners of the Holland Butter Co., father had a military career and was president of the Philadelphia Stock Exchange. Tee attended Darby High School, and was an excellent swimmer (probably as "Billy Linn"), training for the Olympics. He graduated from Temple University with a degree in metallurgy, and worked as a welder for the Sun Oil Co. in Marcus Hook (PA). Info from Frank Linn, his son. Does that help?

Probably, yes, though he was on the list to check anyway.

Interesting, I had him down as dead on the basis of two newspaper reports, but looks like they jumped the gun...
Which dates are you going for this chap you have chosen?

I will have to check the 15 Jan 1900 date as that was an aside from his death information - what I did find interesting about the above is he is often referred to as William Lynn Jr - his dad being the same name.. now the above is so concise, that has to be checked again.

Keep the double checks coming... I will have time soon to recheck all these "doubts" & produce some more answers - though Linn might go up the list of importance to do now.....

There is a William Linn from Pennsylvania on SSDI with a death date of Nov 1974, but he's too young (born in 1923), and the only other ones to have died in the seventies have the details 1911-Feb-07 to 1978-Feb-?? residing in Marcus Hook (PA), and 1908-May-22 to 1976-Feb-?? in Miami (FL). None of the five listed under Illinois do fit the criteria, and I haven't checked any of the roughly 100 (gulp!) others. There are also several persons by the name of William Lynn whose dates are close enough to be considered possibilities.

It is not entirely unthinkable that the Frank Linn quoted in the Langhorne book was some strange sort of imposter, and there are additional references to Tee Linn starting in NMRA events, for which the 1911 birthdate would appear to be too late. In any case, however, I feel that 1900 is too early - he was definitely considered a young up-and-coming driver in 1934.

Slightly tangential, but Harry Sauce had a big accident last year (broken back, both legs) and is a bit poorly...the SCCA has set up a recovery fund. It will be a bit of time before he's able to get racing again...

Thanks Ensign - I was aware of it - seems his recovery has been much slower than hoped, but he still wants to race!

I am in the final processes of finishing off a HUGE update for WATN.. more on the WATN bit than birth & date dates which I have focused on in the past few updates so bear with me.. it should hopefully be a bit more up-to-date now all round.

And a sad one to add...RIP Danny Kladis. Granatelli's first Indy driver, in one of the Miller-Fords that were ill-designed (I think with an Offy in place), and hitherto oldest Indy survivor...

About Ray Cariens, see

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/focus.php?db=ct&n=510

for corrected information.

More notes to be written, but dates and places of birth and death are correct.

The "Evansville" Raymond Cariens died in Evansville in September of 1980.

Rick Kelly
Oklahoma City

Okay Rick,

Jim had alerted me to the date of death - I'll have a look to see if I can find the date of birth anywhere.

Hmmm.. another one I've got wrong.

Mr Jenkins,


As a fan who has learned so much from the efforts the group here working on the "Where Are They Now " forums NEVER ever kick yourself if you happen to get a couple wrong. Usually they will be found out ,but a pefected listing of all drivers will allways be a true challenge due to the time that has passed since some of the folks drove.

Be glad in the knowledge that drivers like the recently departed Danny Kladis or Jim Mcwithney may not have maintained much "fame' since their driving days ended with the creation of this forum they too can be remembered as easily as the "stars" .

So while i can't speak for anyone else i must offer everyone who is working on this project a big THANK YOU for all of the efforts goin into this work.


Paul




P.S. ever thought of doin a Daytona 500 version ? (seems NASCAR doesnt care about it's history too much either . )

I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Richie and Co, for all your efforts, and please don't get disheartened when the occasional mistake shows up.

Paul & Tim, thank you.. honestly.

I think it's just I put myself down to quite high standards, so it's a bit frustrating ... however having said that, some of these I did quite a while back with much, much less resources available - I suppose the flip side is the ones that are wrong... we know are wrong & can correct them. I just hope there's not many.....

As for Daytona 500... possibly - NASCAR has been considered, but the next project would be a F2 version I think. The very next project is to sort the questionable dates out once & for all though.

There will be a new big update soon.. unfortunately missed Kladis' death, but did get Klenk's death in.

I found date of death in the CA state records for both MM and WATN, but...I couldn't tell you about birth place as there was no mention of it in the items in the Los Angeles Times. Sorting out birth place was thanks to more good research by Rick.

The only biographical material in the Times was mention that Cariens had been Bennett Hill's riding mechanic, had recently begun driving himself and drove relief at Indianapolis. That was it.

I neglected to note which hospital Cariens was in, so he might not have passed away in Culver City proper :\ Sorry, fatigue and eye strain were setting in by that point.

It's a shame we can't just check the hometown newspapers for each of these drivers. It works so much better.

The Riverside paper again listed Rex Mays as "born in Riverside", but the CA birth records list him as being born in adjacent San Bernardino County. I now know that Mays attended Poly High, class of '31, and the location of the track he did much of his early racing at.

I wonder if there were birth announcements in the Riverside Press in 1913?...and if there were, would it even be worth checking?

Ok, taken care of. I took steps yesterday to correct my gaffe, and did so without driving 50-80 miles to a library

Ray Cariens was taken to Angelus Hospital, so place of death is Los Angeles, California instead of Culver City. He survived the crash at Culver City only to pass away from his injuries two days later.

Rick & Jim - thank you for the information - although the date of death is wrong in the copied article, the time (ie the date) of the article is the correct time & this particular mystery appears solved:

http://theusgenweb.org/il/wayne/death/bett...-2.htm#dec31-25

Right, I hope this all works - the latest updates are up - and it was a huge update - which is partly the reason why some of the above double-checking of dates & so much else was put off - most of it centres around the WATN information, as some of it is woefully out of date, so it is now a bit more concise & more up-to-date:

2008/2009 WATN Updates
Jo Andretti, Auinger, Albers, Berger, Bourdais, Bernoldi, Baumgartner, Barrichello, Button, Brawn, Bigois, D Clarke, E Cheever, Colciago, Caffi, Carbonell, Chiesa, Corradi, Constantino Jr, Carpentier, Campos, Cecotto, Couto, Camathias, Bert, Dalziel, Divila, A Davidson, Dominguez, E Fittipaldi, N Fry, Filhol, E & W Fittipaldi, A Ferte, Gollin, F Giaffone, Gounon, Gregoire, Gabbiani, Giroix, Goudchaux, Hitzinger, Herta, Hunter-Reay, Haberfeld, J Howard, Kasements, Janis, Krumm, Jani, Kurosawa, Karthikeyan, Johansson, Noda, Tagliani, J Wilson, Yamamoto, Nurminen, Saelens, Reeves, Helary, Naspetti, Lavaggi, Lotterer, Lisles, Lopez, Legge, Larrauri, Lohr, Lammers, M Marshall, Monfardini, A Muller, Livio, Lancieri, Garcia, Rosset, Sharp, Filip, Melo, Merzario, Monfardini, Mikola, Manning, Montanari, McGarrity, Morand, H Matsuda, Matsuura, Morbidelli, Monti, Nurminen, Policand, Pirro, Pescarolo, Pruett, Perez Sala, Plata, B Rice, Ranger, Russell, Ress, Rugolo, Ruberti, Apicella, Clarke, Marques, Rostan, Villeneuve J (jr), Verstappen, Vinella, PJ Jones, Keen, Langhorne, Lehto, Nissany, Oestrich, Schrader, Shuman, A Suzuki, Schwager, Serra, Terrien, Wirdheim, Witmeur, Zwolsman, Watt, Schiattarella, Yeley, Van Hooydonk, Yasukawa, Wurz, Walsfisch, Zampredi

General WATN Updates
Artam, Amon, Aiello, Andrews, B Boyer, K Brack, T Byrne, Busi, Bertaggia, J Bell, Baldi, Choulet, Coughlan, Calkins, Chaves, de Cortanze, Didero, Dussau, Dare, Derichebourg, F Elliott, Erwin, R Dean, Ducarouge, Favre, Fitch, Fisher, Forini, Foitek, Guglemin, Gache, Goudy, Godin, Guerra, Hanford, Herrmann, S Hattori, D Hamilton, M Harris, Herbert, Derek Hill, Hoffmann, Halsmer, Hoshino, Hucul, Kuwashima, H Johnson, K Johnson, M Jones, Kuhn, A Jenkins, Julian, Kavanagh, Christie, J Wood, Moreno, van der Merwe, Lucchinelli, Lippi, Luydenyk Jr, Lunger, Laffite, Luhti, Lupberger, MacDowel, Maggs, Mass, Takagi, Giebler, Minardi, Murphey, McKee, Nannini, Nearburg, Pitchforth, Prappas, Preston, Posey, Paese, Pimm, G Rees, Al Riberio, Gascoyne, Kenyon, J Martin, Mayer, McQuilliam. Meier, Michner, Buzane, Cosman, Scalabroni, Stephens, R Schroeder, Swaters, St James, Surtees, Stirano, Stoddart, B Scott, Terry, Theys, Tassin, D Wilson, Sauce, Villeneuve Sr, Vukovich Jr, Wearne, Wardrop, Zoboli, A Wirth, Zakowski, Van Hool, Jf Ward

Changed Info
J Boyer, Thiesen, Andres - birthdate
Botha, Schurch- deathdate
Removed Rob Schroeder deathdate
Tingle - deathplace

New Info
Cosman - FULL Details
Elliott - deathplace
W Ferguson - deathdate
Kauhsen - full birthdate
McKee - deathdate & place
Hellings - full deathplace
Nakamura - full deathdate & place
Rocchi - birthplace
Yamashina - birthdate & place

New
Conway

OUT
R Phillippe - was added but team never came to fruition...

Died
Teddy Mayer, McWithey, Pretorius, Ruby, Klenk* (deathplace & birthdate wrong though - to be amended in next update) - I missed Kladis by a day or so

Other
Usual situation of spellings sorted out, checked a few other bits & pieces and all current GP driver totals added.

Thanks
Urs Steigmeier, Dick Cole, Gergely Gabris, Ales Norsky, Hieronymus, Jerry Entin, Rick Kelly, Willem Oosthoek, Jim Thurman, Brian Pratt, Rewind, Peter Higham, Thomas Saal, Steve Olvey, Leonard "Gig" Stephens


Now we concentrate on making sure ALL the dates match the right people..

Great work as ever Richie et al.

Just one small point I noticed on my latest visit - you have Ernst Klodwig as the first man to race a rear-engined car in the WDC. Surely that honour belongs to Harry Schell in Monaco 1950 - granted he didn't get very far, but he did start.

Yes, you're right, I'll amend that, cheers.

Subscription post.

Re: Ray CariensIsn't that a litte premature?
In the article it was written he died in February when in fact he died in December.
And in the article it was written he was born in February although Rick says he was born in December.
How can we be sure that in the article those months did not get mixed up twice?

BTW: I realized that on WATN under “World Championship team bosses” there is no entry on John Howett (b. 26 July 1952 in Crowborough City).

FWIW Crowborough is not (and never has been) a city.