Um, well ...

To be honest, it's one of thes things you just accept.

I suppose the difference is that in the Mille Miglia or the Targa, the cars can pass each other whereas in a hillclimb, at least the short British sort, this is very unlikely.

I can't honestly explain why we don't describe Shelsey Walsh or Brighton Speed Trials as 'races' and the not passing each other is the only reason I can think of. We certainly don't refer to F1 qualification as a 'race', but we would refer to a qualifying heat as a 'race'. I suppose we call Drag racing 'racing' as the format is one car against another with one being eliminated, although both are actually racing against the clock.

Oh, really? I am sure that is big news to many a drag-racer who set a lower ET than his opponent only to watch the rest of the meet from the stands....

I stand corrected - obviously I've misunderstood the way a drag meeting and 'top eliminator' works. I thought it was the car with the faster time that went through. Is it first through the end of the quarter mile or is it terminal speed that is the criterion then?

Don, can you offer an explanation why a hillclimb is not a race?

In drag racing, it is the first who passes over the finish line, regardless of the ET that wins. You can have a quicker ET than the guy/gal who won, but that is also often irrelevant....

Why isn't a hillclimb considered a race? Because, well, because, well, you know, because....

Actually, as far as I can tell, this is an attitude or understanding that stretches back more than a century to the notion that events/ contests such as single car runs on beaches and hillclimbs were not actually races -- which were deemed to be competitions pitting drivers against other drivers on a circuit, but rather specialized contests pitting one's skills against first the clock and then the other competitors. However, while realizing that not hillclimbs are foot-to-the-floor-hope-it-doesn't-hurt-too-much-when-I-drop-those-500m-if-I-miss-that-corner Banzai runs, I am not one of those excluding hillclimbs from those things considered racing.

It drives me barmy when I hear a rally described as a race.

NO IT ISN'T!

There is a "catch-all" definition, covering hillclimbs, sprints, kilometre lancé and the like, which is speed trial. I would go further and define it as an event in which competitors start individually, but of course you immediately run up against the Brighton Speed Trial, where the cars start in pairs. In 'modern' terms Brighton is more drag race than anything else, but of course it pre-dates drag racing by some years. The exception which proves the rule?

I like your 'catch-all' definition, Richard - but it doesn't quite work
In official jargon, yes, but not in real life
If I hear the term 'speed trial' I will immediately presume the event in question is not a hillclimb.
Both 'speed trial' and 'sprint' remain confusing, as the terms are used to apply both to straight-line events and those with corners in them. And invariably - in my understanding - on the flat.

I'm afraid I don't understand that. If two vehicles start at the same time and have to cover the same distance, then surely the one with the lowest elapsed time must pass over the finish line first.

I admit to almost total ignorance of drag racing, but this sound really intriguing.

Early correspondence (1901) of the Midland Automobile Club speaks of "hill climbing trials"

and Autocar (1902) "hill-climbing contest"

MAC again (1904) "hill climb"

(Source: Ton Up! ... MAC Centenary book)

I believe part of the Luton Hoo course went downhill?

Roger: in drag racing the time is to a certain extent irrelevant as it's run on a knockout basis. Thus, the winner of the final might post a slower time than his opponent had in a previous round.

Roger, you really need to take a look at drag racing sometime and it will become readily apparent, even to the Untrained Eye, that reaction times, traction, and just flat getting away quickly are not only the obvious crucial aspects of drag racing, but that going to the first is what counts. No, they don't "start at the same time" as such, since the elapsed times are recorded from when the timing beam is tripped at the start to when it is tripped once again at the finish. What matters is when the starter allows you to begin, not when you actually trip the timing lights. You can literally cover the ground faster than your opponent but still get beat -- and beat badly in some instances. It is a sport that I still enjoy due to both its inclusiveness and its basic, simple concept.

Reaction Time. If a driver has poorer reaction time off the line, they can still have a lower ET and lose.

I guess I shouldn't get into red lights versus center line violations.

Since this thread is essentially about words, can anybody give an origin or explanation of the term 'drag racing'?

We should be so lucky....

In the only volume, High Performance by Robert C. Post of the Smithsonian, from an academic press, Johns Hopkins, that addresses drag racing, even Post admits that it is unclear as to the exact origin of the term (n.8, p.351). That the main thoroughfare of a town was often called the "main drag" is one; holding the transmission in a low gear and "dragging" or winding it out is another. Plus, there were competitions at the various fairgrounds where teams of horses would compete in a contest as to which team could "drag" a weight over a certain distance the fastest. And other possible explanations as well.

Thank you. I didn't know that the time is taken from when the car crosses the line but the race starts when the starter says go. Your explanation is very clear.

I wonder if there could be an analogous situation in circuit racing where a competitor at the back of the grid sets the fastest first lap of the field (because he is travelling at high speed when he breaks the timing beam) but is still last at the end of that first lap.

I admitted to ignorance of drag racing because it has never really crossed my consciousness. It was in no way intended to be a criticism of the sport.

While Don might be right about it being unclear, I have read and accepted that it was to do with the horse drag racing contests...

Horses were made to drag timber beams, something like railway sleepers I assume, along the streets to smooth them out. In time races were held based on this practice and 'quarter horses' were specially bred for these races.

The 'quarter' in the horse breed name is probably the giveaway here... the races were over a quarter of a mile. Dragging a lump of timber. I think accepting that explanation is rational.

In road racing, the timing begins (or used to, at least, before the widespread use of electronic transponders in the cars) when the flag drops... and lap times for the first lap for a car at the rear of the field would be the fastest lap only if that car passed the whole field in that lap.

I know that used to be the case, but is it still?

I'm pretty sure it is at most levels, at least, Roger...

According to the SI-metric usage website...

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/correct.htm

...the correct abbrev...sorry, symbols, for miles (per hour) and kilometres (per hour) are:



But does anymore agree with me "mi/h" looks awful? Especially if you want to give a speed in both kilometres and miles per hour, for instance:


I think something like


looks a lot better, even if that may be incorrect, stricktly speaking.

I use "kmph" and "mph" and could care less what anyone thinks.

mph has always been the accepted form
When NZ went metric, the official advice was that its replacement should be km/h
Frankly I couldn't then and can't now see how kph could confuse anyone

As the mile is an Imperial unit, what does the SI/Metric website have to do with it? It's just the French trying to take over again.

I don't think you'd find any British (or American) source using mi/h, only mph.

FWIW I use mph and km/h.

Hmmm - what measurement system was it exactly that NASA used on their celebrated failure of a Mars lander mission?

As for what constitutes normal British usage - mph, kph (or increasingly km/h), a rally or a hillclimb can be a competition or event, but NEVER 'a race' - a race places several cars on the course simultaneously and in all but very rare cases has to cover more than one lap of said course REGARDLESS of whether those cars all started simultaneously or were sent off at timed intervals.

Our local newspaper this morning has been printed with a front-page headline using the word 'LIKELEY' and an inside-page headline using the word 'HUMNAN' - and how big has the golf-hole become to generate yesterday's A-level examination success rate????? Makes you want to spit - or despair for the UK's future against nations which properly protect and assert real standards.

DCN

And all this time I thought that drag racing was Lily Savage versus Dame Edna at the drop of a handbag

No reason to moan about mi/h:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_hour

Every reason to moan about mi/h - unless we're writing for a technical publication

Today - right here - is the first time I have ever seen the form 'mi/h' used. It is un-British, un-Imperial and it is nonsense. God Save the Queen. Hurrah.

DCN

The Disambiguation of mph is a worthy cause but, until Doug and others of his brotherhood, have cause to refer to

* Master of Public Health, a Master's degree in public health
* Methylphenidate, an amphetamine-like prescription stimulant commonly used to treat Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in children and adults
* Metroid Prime Hunters, a video game for the Nintendo DS
* MPH Bookstores, a Malaysian bookstore chain
* MPH Entertainment, Inc., an American film and television production company
* Make Poverty History, a campaign supported by Bob Geldof to end poverty in Africa
* Manlius Pebble Hill, an independent K-12 college preparatory school in DeWitt, New York
* MPH (transmission system), a modulation system used for transmission of digital television
* MPH (minimal perfect hashing), a method of generating a hash function without collisions or empty buckets.

in their scribings, I think I will probably continue to think of mph as being an unambiguous term.

Ha...to add, my official English/Afrikaans dictionary tells me to use the following abbreviations:

m.p.h. (miles per hour) or m.p.u. (myl per uur)

also

m.p.g. (miles per gallon)
r.p.m. (revolutions per minute)

I'm sure that means something to somebody, but it's got me baffled!

David

Doug

It's a bit of a bugger if you like your hash with collisions and empty buckets.

Don't forget

Mr. Potato Head
Male Pseudohermaphroditism and
Championship Auto Racing Teams, Inc. (NYSE stock symbol)

http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?...nd&string=exact

I forgot.

OK, mi/h it is! :\

After the preceding posts, I really and truly don't give a damn and will stick with what I use.