I am not advocating "popularity". None of the authors I mentioned produce mass market trash so your mention of Westlife has no relevance at all.

Ozzy, I noticed many times that in Italian reports, names like BMW (Bayerische Motoren Werke, written BMW by BMW itself) are being written as Bmw, like you do yourself with Uefa, Fifa, Fia etc., which I rather would tend to write as UEFA, FIFA, FIA. Is that a typical Italian thing, then?

And, belatedly due to a week-long stay in the US with no time to do much Internet-surfing, my two-pennies'-worth on the "de Portago"-question: Being affected myself, my family name being "de Boer", I have noticed differences in many countries. In my native The Netherlands, it would be "René de Boer" with a small d, but "Mr. (Dhr.) De Boer" with a capital D. As there are so many names with "De" and "Van", I will usually be listed alphabetically under B, rather than under D, whereas in Germany, where I live, I am usually listed under D, although people write my name always with a small d, like "Herr de Boer".

Since this thread is about spelling / grammar, I thought it might be the appropriate place to ask the following question.

What is the difference, if any, between "race car" and "racing car"?

Also, compound words in English confuse me. Why is "sports car" two words, but "sidecar" one?

1) A race car is American, a racing car British
2) words evolve, especially portmanteau words such as the two you mention. I am sure if you go back far enought you will find 'side-car' written. I myself tend to use 'sportscar' these days

It's a US/British thing: 'race car' is an exclusively US usage while 'racing car' is a British usage which I think is also used in the USA.

'Sidecar' and 'Sports car' is tricky. I think the subtle difference is that a sidecar is an object in its own right, a thing attached to a motorcycle, and a sports car is a type of car alongside saloon car, estate car, racing car, etc.

Ah yes, the ever-tricky American vs British spelling. That makes sense.

Thank you both, I'll keep it in mind.

Slightly O.T. but I cringe at the expression 'the six car' or 'the ten car'.

Meldrew syndrome!

What I understood from my dad who's into Medieval History and Heraldry, it's definitly "de Portago". You can find family names with a "de" but they aren't part of nobility also. A "Tartanpion de Chimay" could be just a way to identify someone back then by adding the name of his village. But now you have Imperial Nobility, the Papal (?) Nobility, Feudal Nobility...
I once read a biography about Genghis Khan, the names are way more difficult to understand and remember

I've seen "side-car" written in literature from the 1930s, as well as sidecar.
I use "sportscar" when referring to a racing sportscar (eg a prototype) and "sports car" when referring to a road-going model. This is probably completely illogical but it works fine for me.

Oh you are so right! I grind my teeth when the TV commentator refers to a car strictly by number. This started in the US as a nascar only peculiarity, but now the rot has spread to almost all series. Rick Benjamin, who does the Champ Car commentary on US TV, is becoming particularly annoying. Several times a race I have to scream at the TV screen "JUST TELL ME WHO IT IS!!!" as he drones on banally about "the four car is closing on the six car". Does not mean a damn thing to me! I don't want to have to memorize the blasted numbers, just tell who the heck is driving the car!!

It has even spread to track announcers. At Road America this past weekend the June Sprints were run. Many times the track announcer did the same thing. Now in an amateur race such as the Sprints, with 500 cars competing in 30 classes in nine races, there is no fan who knows the numbers without looking at the program. Nonetheless, time and time again, the track announcer said words to the effect that "the 26 continues to lead".

I could just scream.

@RA Historian

A similar thing can be found in names of corners. Rather than "Tarzancorner" at Zandvoort, for instance, drivers are talking about "Turn 1".

And with event names: official organisations often prefer to talk about "Round 1 of the Championship" rather than "The xxx rally" or race. Thus, event names like the "Grosser Preis der Tourenwagen", a regular fixture at the Nürburgring, have disappeared. It is now simply "DTM Nürburgring".

Again, Tom, this isn't a NASCAR thing, it's a Benjamin thing - or maybe a Ken Squier thing. Benjamin is a Squier protege and hire. From the time Rick Benjamin showed up he's done that. He did it all the time on Trans-Am telecasts. It's not NASCAR, it's just him.

The last line, I concur completely with.

Another Benjamin habit - "nearing the halfway point", "at halfway in this one" and "closing in on the finish here in/at (insert location)". These terms are used for a dozen laps or so and then switched to the next one, whether they apply or not - and they usually don't. I've heard "nearing halfway" on the 10th lap of a 50 lap race, "at halfway" from the 1/3 to 2/3 distance of a race and "closing in on the finish" from the 2/3 mark to literally seconds before the checkered flag caught him apparently unaware

Did you know Rick Benjamin had been a news anchor in the Quad Cities (Iowa) area?

Thanks for the insight, Jim, I appreciate it!
Tom

Auction headings and descriptions in particular have a terrible problem with the title of an open two-seater - a 'Spyder' or a 'Spider'.

Manufacturers and coachbuilders have historically used both spellings. I settled eventually on 'Spyder' for a German vehicle and 'Spider' for an Italian one - since Italian largely omits the letter 'y'.

Yet I have seen a contemporary 1930s Zagato ad using 'Spyder' more or less as a stylishly 'foreign' affectation, I guess they thought it looked really cool, while other examples from the same source then use 'Spider'.

Obviously 'Spider' can cause contextual problems within general text, confusion with arachnids, of course, but 1920s, 30s, 40s or 50s examples of 'Spider' v. 'Spyder' in advertising or brochure work are always of interest to me. NOT that any of them has ever helped me resolve this personal editorial confusion....!

DCN

Here's another one I can't seem to find an answer to: what is the correct plural of "rallye"?

I think that "rallye" is French, as in "Rallye Monte Carlo" in which case the plural is simply "rallyes". The same will probably apply to other Latin languages - Italian, Spanish, Portuguese. But, life is never that simple and I think that "rallye" is also used in Germany in which case they would say something like "rallyen" (I don't know any German).

In English, the word is "rally" and hence the plural is "rallies"

Aha - but are you sure about that last statement? The website dictionary.com - which seems pretty decent to me - says it is "rallye".

The English word is "rally" with no "e", but some events are referred to by English writers as "Rallye", especially but not always those in Continental Europe.

I have seen the plural of "Rallye" in German as simply rallye, no modifier, but that might not be correct. Does anyone know the definitive answer?

German uses "Rallye" (singular) and "Rallyes" (plural).

It's a bit slack today so I checked the dictionaries in my company's library:

Oxford and Encarta give just rally
Longmans gives rally but says "occasionally rallye "
Chambers gives rally but says "US occasionally rallye "
We don't have Websters or Chambers.

But the French and German dictionaries say they use "rallye"

An English rallye would have the plural rallyes

I suppose there's no strict bottom line then, but as "rally" seems more widespread in English, I'll stick to that.

Car someone confirm that the Formula One Constructors Association (Then called F1CA) changed to FOCA because the original acronym had a rude meaning to Italians...

Something ruled upon by current publishers' so-called 'style books' which drives me whiskerless is the use of 'grand prix' with lower case initials, as in 'grand prix racing', 'grand prix car', 'grand prix driver'.

Having grown up through an era in which Grand Prix races were not inidvidually devalued by having become too frequent, and therefore too common a currency this incenses me beyond all reasonable measure. I think I know rather more about 'Grand Prix' in the motoring sense than any style book compiler and most editorial humanoids and I will not accept 'grand prix', for the same reason that 'south african', 'new zealand', 'south american' and 'west hartlepool' are wrong, wrong, wrong. To me 'Grand Prix' is a proper name, in two parts, and it requires initial capitalisation.

The other press and media habit which seems to have erupted from the slew of pathetically poor educational standards in recent years is motoring journalists describing a car or driver as having 'span out of control' or 'span off'. Again my entire schooling through my formative years voraciously absorbing the world's English-language motoring press is exclusively 'spun off', 'spun out', spun into'.

'Span off'?

P--- Off!!!!!

DCN

PS - Yes indeed - 'F1CA' instead of 'FOCA' used to cause quite a bit of untypically schoolboy sniggering amongst Italian gentlemen of my acquaintance...especially when they were taking aim at Mr E's latest anti-Ferrari/anti-Italian manouevrings - as they used to be viewed...

Victor Meldrew strikes again.... and quite rightly, too!

"Pee 1" or "Pee 2" etc annoys me. Why can't they just say 1st or 2nd, as the case may be. Not that I ever watch ITV Eff 1 races of course...

It says it all that the "education branch" of our renamed Department for Education and Skills should adopt a logo devoid of upper case letters

This confuses me from time to time - I'll remember from now on!

Hear here!

Hear where?

I meant: "Hear! Hear!" - from here

I have to re-plan my journey to Betelguese

Thanks, good educational post.

I hear you!
But you say from "here". But I thought I was "here" and you were "there"; in which case you would be saying "Hear, Hear from there", wouldn't you? All very confusing.............

Here's another one that's driving me mad: what is the proper English term for the German "Zielfahrt" (lit: "finish drive")?

The "Zielfahrt" was once quite popular. People from all over the country had to arrive by motor vehicle at a certain spot at a certain time, which earned them a small souvenir. It had nothing to do with racing. There was often no competition at all, it was just for the fun of it, although sometimes there was some competition as to who had to complete the longest journey to get to the destination.

Most of the time a "Zielfahrt" was organized on the occasion of some other, larger event. For example, the AvD often organized "Zielfahrten" before the German Grand Prix of the 1920s. Perhaps simply as an incentive for people to come.

If I am not mistaken, "Sternfahrt" is a synonym. Perhaps our German members can confirm that? The closest English equivalent I have found is "touring rally", but somehow I don't think that's quite it.

I think 'touring rally' or 'rally' is as close as you will get. In English the word 'rally' has two distinct meanings:
1. A competitive [motor] event like the Monte Carlo Rally, the RAC Rally or the Alpine Rally
2. Any sort of a gathering, not necessarily motoring. For example a Scottish clan rally or a rally of Hell's Angels or what the Boy Scouts call a 'jamboree'. To avoid confusion with (1) in a motoring context we tend to add the word touring or use another word altogether like 'gathering'.

The confusion has arisen because of the origins of car rallying. The original Monte Carlo Rally was essentially a gathering of cars from all over Europe with a competitive element at the end. The RAC was the same with the competitive element originally being confined to a series of 'driving tests' at the seaside resort where the rally gathered.

Basically I think this is a case of a word that doesn't translate directly.

We need to bear in mind that the term "Ziel" has also different meanings in German, if I recall correctly. We all know the "Start und Ziel" area of e.g. the Nürburgring which in this case is, in fact, "finish". But "Ziel" can also mean target, aim or destination.

A "Zielfahrt" in Rob's context above is nothing else than a (touristic) rally from various start points to one single point of destination. The reason why I put "touristic" in brackets is that there is, of course, some kind of "competitive" element in it but not to the point that the FIA (or DMSB) would wish to be bothered with it.

I suppose "touring rally" will have to do then. The problem is that, for many non-English speakers (or in any case for myself), the word "rally" has connotations of speed, competition etc, yet a touring rally need not have something to do with either.

Rudi is of course right about the meanings of "Ziel". Something like "destination drive" would be a more fitting literal translation.

Thanks, both.

Rob: since this is an untranslatable term, I wouldn't bother trying! Should you be writing about it in English, I'd suggest that you'd have to explain what it was anyway, so it would be perfectly acceptable to call it "the peculiarly German event known as a "Zielfahrt"."

I just realise that I had omitted a comment about that part.

A "Zielfahrt" simply goes from A to B, so e.g. from Klein-Kleckersdorf to the 'Ring. A "Sternfahrt" can go from various starting points to a given destination. The Rallye Monte Carlo has been a typical case for that, e.g. teams starting in Helsinki, Istanbul, Cairo, Lisbon (don't shoot at me, I'm just making them up) all went to Monte Carlo. However, as mentioned earlier, a "Sternfahrt" does not need to have FIA / DMSB approval as it may not necessarily include a competitive element in our sense.

I've been thinking about this and still can't come up with a word. As Vitesse2 says, you will have to use Zielfahrt or Sternfahrt and explain the term. Then all you are left with is words to use in the article. As there are no direct English equivalents you would have to use different words according to the context.

If the emphasis is on the journey you could use 'tour', 'organised tour', 'expedition', 'crusade', or even 'pilgrimage' if there is an element of this in the activity, e.g. Porsches to Zuffenhausen.

If the emphasis is on once the participants have met up, you could use 'meeting', 'gathering', 'assembly', 'get together', or possibly 'rendezvous'.

Because 'rally' in a motoring context almost always means a competitive event, in this case I would avoid the word completely unless there is a competitive element in which case I would still qualify it: 'social rally', 'touring rally', 'gentle rally', 'non-competitive rally' etc.

Sorry I can't think of more. Perhaps our professional writers can help.

It sounds similar to what might be termed a "Sociability Run". These took place in the early 1900s in the US, and took the idea of a reliability run (the forerunner of the rally) and removed the competitive element. Although people didn't have to get somewhere at the same time, they all travelled the same route and met up at the same points along the way.

Looking into it some more, I also came across the terms "Plakette-Zielfahrt" (the Plakette being the souvenir people received, a small plaque) and "Gesellschaftsfahrt" (Gesellschaft meaning company, group, party [of friends], that sort of thing).

There are more phrases and terms like this that are typically German and don't translate well (if at all) to English. "Rundstreckenrennen", for instance (meaning a race on a circuit that runs from A-A [i.e. in a circle] rather than from A-B like in a hillclimb or rally). Indeed explaining rather than trying to translate is the only sollution.

@Rudi: I am sure a "Zielfahrt" and "Sternfahrt" (lit: "star drive") are the same. A Zielfahrt need not run from A-B. People can start anywhere.

Well, "Rundstreckenrennen" is something I do not find that particular. The English equivalent "circuit race" is, admittedly, quite unusual.

But even in German I reckon you find it rather in combination with a sponsor's or club's name (e.g. "AvD Rundstreckenrennen Nürburgring", "ADAC Bavaria Rundstreckenrennen"). If it's part of the title I would not try to translate it (you would not make the "Guards Trophy" a "Wächter-Pokal" the other way round, would you ?).

If it's just a description (e.g. ".. das Rundstreckenrennen in Klein-Kleckersdorf ...") I would make it "... the race at the Klein-Kleckersdorf circuit ..."

And then, of course, you use it in technical terms to distinguish e.g. a "Rundstrecken-Getriebe" from a "Berg-Getriebe" - but that's obviously a different subject.

It's even simpler than that, Rudi
The English equivalent of Rundstreckrennen is "race" (or races)
We would translate das Rundstreckenrennen in Klein-Kleckersdorf as "Klein-Kleckersdorf race"

I agree the term does not need to be translated as part of a title. However, I do feel the ubiquitous English "race" is less specific: a hillclimb is also a race but not a "Rundstreckenrennen".

BTW, what's with the fascination for Klein-Kleckersdorf, Rudi?

One more: am I right there is a difference between American and British usage of "road course"?

An American road course is basically a non-oval circuit, so something like Mid Ohio or Laguna Seca. "Road course" isn't common usage in British English, but would infer a course held on public roads, such as Dundrod, therefore excluding circuits such as Silverstone.

Not in English

That's exactly what I thought as well. Thanks for that.



Why not? Dictionary.com says:



I think a hillclimb fits that definition. Plus, a race against time is also a race in my book.

Again it's one of the subtleties of the English language. A race is man against man, horse against horse or car against car. But 'Car against time' is not a race so that means that a hillclimb, a sprint or a rally such as the Liege-Sofia-Liege are not races. It doesn't have to be round a circuit - the Carrera Panamericana was a race.

This appears to be another case of words and meanings not translating exactly. I don't know about Dutch usage, but in German, which I don't speak or read, a hillclimb or a rally can be described as a race or so it appears from some postings on TNF.

That's clear. However, one might argue a hillclimb, too, is man against man, car against car. It's still a bunch of competitors who are not just racing, i.e. competing against time, but also against one another, just not simultaneously (although, to nitpick even more, competitors can be on the course at the same time and even overtake one another).

Obviously such nuances are easily lost, especially for non-native speakers. I certainly wasn't aware the term "race" excludes hillclimbs or rallies.



Indeed - the German word for hillclimb is "Bergrennen" (lit: hill or mountain race).

What is the difference between a road race such as the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio and a hillclimb?

The cars were started at intervals and raced against the clock as well as each other.