One of the most mysterious of all Lotuses has finally put in an appearance. The 58 was built in 1968 as an F2 car to replace the 48. It was unusual (unique for its time) in having deDion suspension front and rear. (As an aside, can anybody explain the difference between de Dion on the non-driven wheels and a dead axle?)
The 58 was tested just once by Graham Hill and then put away. I had never seen a picture of the car until today.
It appears the Classic Team lotus has restored the car and plans to race it. THere is a picture in today's Autosport, in Gold Leaf colours. It looks rathet like a smaller version of the 56 turbine car. there are no wings or fins.
Lotus 58
Started by
Roger Clark
, Jun 08 2000 22:16
35 replies to this topic
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#2
Don Capps
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Posted 09 June 2000 - 01:52
In early 1968, there were a few photos and the odd article on the 58, but as you mentioned, it just never saw the light of day after the initial tests. Did the article mention that the 58 had a de Dion-axle? The 57 was an F1 version of a de Dion-axled machine which never got beyond the design stage. There was a rumor that the 58 did make a run or two fitted with a DFV, but I have never heard anyone confirm that. When it comes to the 57 & 58, zippo.
#3
Ray Bell
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Posted 09 June 2000 - 04:20
A de Dion front axle would be an appropriate name where inboard brakes are used.... otherwise it would have to be a beam axle.
There was a good example of success in the slick era with this on a Clubman built in Chester Hill by Col Wear... He simply said "If you're with the leader going into the last corner you can't lose... just outbrake him and you're first across the line" It did stop very well.
There was a good example of success in the slick era with this on a Clubman built in Chester Hill by Col Wear... He simply said "If you're with the leader going into the last corner you can't lose... just outbrake him and you're first across the line" It did stop very well.
#4
Roger Clark
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Posted 09 June 2000 - 06:30
I'm fairly sure that the 57/58 didn't have inboard front bakes, just a beam axle: like a Bugatti 251! I believe that the "58" was tested with a DFW, the 2.5 litre Tasman version of the DFV. It was probably the same car as the 57.
#5
Huw Jenjin
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Posted 14 June 2000 - 12:18
I dont remember either car. can someone post a picture?
Isnt the critical point about a De Dion that it trails the axle ,rather than the other way round?
A dead or live de Dion would have to have a width compensator of some sort, and thus poor lateral location. I would have thought that a De Dion would have to be independant on that basis ?
Isnt the critical point about a De Dion that it trails the axle ,rather than the other way round?
A dead or live de Dion would have to have a width compensator of some sort, and thus poor lateral location. I would have thought that a De Dion would have to be independant on that basis ?
#6
Ray Bell
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Posted 14 June 2000 - 12:29
The benefit of a de Dion rear end is that a lightweight axle locates the wheels, always in the same relative position to each other as on a beam axle, but does not carry the differential or axles... just the outer quarter shafts and hubs. Location has always been a thing to ponder, many answers being derived by many designers over the years.
One abberation of the setup was the Rover 2000/3500, which allowed the wheels to move vertically in relation to the axle (I've forgotten how this was done, maybe a rotating joint in the de Dion tube), so that with body roll the wheels heeled over at the same angle as the car... exactly what I would have thought was the effect one would be chasing by having a de Dion arrangement.
One abberation of the setup was the Rover 2000/3500, which allowed the wheels to move vertically in relation to the axle (I've forgotten how this was done, maybe a rotating joint in the de Dion tube), so that with body roll the wheels heeled over at the same angle as the car... exactly what I would have thought was the effect one would be chasing by having a de Dion arrangement.
#7
Roger Clark
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Posted 14 June 2000 - 18:16
As Rsy says, a deDion locates the wheels relative to each other, while keping the final drive part of the unsprung weight. Very important in the days when racing cars had springs. They were almost universal from 1937 to the end of the 50's when designers couldn't work out the geometry of independent rear suspension. THere was another burst of interest in the late 60s, early 70s when tyres became much wider and the need to keep them vertical to the road surface became more acute.
An interesting trivia question: how many mid-engined racing cars can you name with de Dion rear suspension (including ones that never raced)?
An interesting trivia question: how many mid-engined racing cars can you name with de Dion rear suspension (including ones that never raced)?
#8
desmo
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Posted 14 June 2000 - 23:20
If memory serves, one of the later (2J?) Chapparal Can-Am cars carried a De Dion rear suspension. And a Strathcarron SC-4 must have seen a race track somewhere.
#9
Roger Clark
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Posted 15 June 2000 - 17:29
It was the 2H, but there are more than that. What is a Strathcarron?
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 15 June 2000 - 21:31
2H, eh? That's the one after the sucker, isn't it? Anyone got any diagrams (not like desmo to let us down, is it?).
And by the way, what is a Strathcarron?
And by the way, what is a Strathcarron?
#11
desmo
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Posted 16 June 2000 - 02:05
The Strathcarron SC-4 was displayed at the '99 Geneva Auto Show as an ultra lightweight sportscar powered by a Triumph or Yamaha motorcycle engine. Largely designed, including the De Dion suspension, by Reynard it is designed to be a low-cost high performance car. The SC-5 is a racecar variant. Visit the rather sketchy website at: http://www.strathcarron.com for more.
Try as I might, it appears there are no images of the Lotus 58 on the web yet. Interestingly there isn't as much as a mention of the Chapparal 2H on the entire web! I find the holes in the info here puzzling. Someone should have built a cyber-shrine to Chapparal Cars by now. Lovers of old racecars must be technophobic[p][Edited by desmo on 06-16-2000]
Try as I might, it appears there are no images of the Lotus 58 on the web yet. Interestingly there isn't as much as a mention of the Chapparal 2H on the entire web! I find the holes in the info here puzzling. Someone should have built a cyber-shrine to Chapparal Cars by now. Lovers of old racecars must be technophobic[p][Edited by desmo on 06-16-2000]
#12
desmo
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Posted 16 June 2000 - 06:00
Didn't the Auto Union D-Type have both a mid-engine and a De Dion?
#13
Ray Bell
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Posted 16 June 2000 - 07:31
Yes, I'm sure later Auto Unions had de Dions.
#14
desmo
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Posted 16 June 2000 - 10:16
Found an image of the 2H:
This is with the added on wing mounted amidships. Not nearly as elegant as the proto with the plexi nose! The shape of the body was supposed to produce enough downforce without a wing.
This is with the added on wing mounted amidships. Not nearly as elegant as the proto with the plexi nose! The shape of the body was supposed to produce enough downforce without a wing.
#15
Ray Bell
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Posted 16 June 2000 - 11:10
There's no doubt about Jim and the boys, they made great looking cars! Except the 'sucker'....
Question: (and anyone answering the one above would be appreciated... was the 2J the Sucker?) What were the engines in the Sucker?
Question: (and anyone answering the one above would be appreciated... was the 2J the Sucker?) What were the engines in the Sucker?
#16
Roger Clark
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Posted 16 June 2000 - 17:49
The 2J was the sucker. It used the usual Chevrolet 7litre engine to push and a 2-cylinder rockingham to suck.
The 2H was originally intended to be a coupe, with the driver looking through the tiny window that can be seen at the front of the car. As Ray says, it was intended to run without wings, but ended up with the biggest wing I've ever seen.
THere is a picture of the Lotus 58 in this month's Motor Sport, but I don't have a scanner. It i due to race at the Coy's festival at Silverstone in July.
As for rear-engined deDion cars, I can think of 3 that raced, and 4 that were bui;t but didn't race.
The 2H was originally intended to be a coupe, with the driver looking through the tiny window that can be seen at the front of the car. As Ray says, it was intended to run without wings, but ended up with the biggest wing I've ever seen.
THere is a picture of the Lotus 58 in this month's Motor Sport, but I don't have a scanner. It i due to race at the Coy's festival at Silverstone in July.
As for rear-engined deDion cars, I can think of 3 that raced, and 4 that were bui;t but didn't race.
#17
KzKiwi
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Posted 19 June 2000 - 08:21
The D type Auto Union did have De Dion rear suspension. This must make it the first RE racing car to have DD suspension as the 1922/3 Benz RH 'Tropfenwagon' had rear suspension based on the swing axle principle.
The 1956 Bugatti T 251 also had DD rear suspension for its one off appearance at the French GP. It also had the unique 'cris cross' rear shock absorber mountings.
What is car # 3 Roger?
As for RE cars that did not race these would have to be:
1940 Alfa Romeo 512,
1941 'Auto Union'1.5 litre E type (or DAMW),
1952 Sacha Gordine (this had a magnesium DeDion tube), and
1968 Lotus 58
The 1956 Bugatti T 251 also had DD rear suspension for its one off appearance at the French GP. It also had the unique 'cris cross' rear shock absorber mountings.
What is car # 3 Roger?
As for RE cars that did not race these would have to be:
1940 Alfa Romeo 512,
1941 'Auto Union'1.5 litre E type (or DAMW),
1952 Sacha Gordine (this had a magnesium DeDion tube), and
1968 Lotus 58
#18
Marco94
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Posted 19 June 2000 - 10:12
Ferrari also produced a prototype 312 T2 with De Dion axle. There are pcitures of it in one of Niki Lauda's books. I thought it was called "My life at Ferrari."
Marco.
Marco.
#19
Roger Clark
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Posted 20 June 2000 - 06:30
KzKiwi and Marco have got it between them. THe cars I ws thinking of were the A-U D-tye, the Bugatti and the Chaparral (racers) and the Alfa 512, the SAcha-Gordine, the Lotus and the Ferrari (non-racers). I'd forgotten about the DAMW, which is a bit silly as I was looking at it only a month ago.
Am I right in thinking that the Ferrari appeared briefly in deDion form in practice for the French GP?
Am I right in thinking that the Ferrari appeared briefly in deDion form in practice for the French GP?
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#20
Marco94
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Posted 20 June 2000 - 10:59
I can't remember if the book said if was the Ferrari was tried during a GP, so I can't help you on that one.
Your remark about the Auto-Union is interesting. What can you tell me about the Auto-Union Typ E? If I remember correctly, either Ludvigsens 1977 Porsche book or Nixon's Racing the Silver Arrow said it was unlikely there ever was such a car. Plans maybe, but nothing build.
Marco.
Your remark about the Auto-Union is interesting. What can you tell me about the Auto-Union Typ E? If I remember correctly, either Ludvigsens 1977 Porsche book or Nixon's Racing the Silver Arrow said it was unlikely there ever was such a car. Plans maybe, but nothing build.
Marco.
#21
Roger Clark
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Posted 20 June 2000 - 17:50
THe car was found in the late 1970s in the then East Germany. It appears to have been built by engineers from the pre-war Auto-Union racing department. It has a 2-litre unsupercharged V12 engine, probably designed for the post-war formula 2.
DAMW (Deutsche Amt Fur Material und Warenprufung) was situated in the old BMW factories in Eisenach. DAMW also produced EMW cars (Eisenach Motoren Werken?). They later became Automobile Werke Eisenach (AWE) and produced 2-litre sports cars.
When the V12 in question arrived in Britain it was given bodywork based on some 1950 photographs and an Auto-Union badge. The car is now on display in the Donington museum
Some authorities claim that the car was a prototype 1940 Auto-Union, when pesumably the engine would have been 1.5-litres and supercharged. Denis Jenkinson thought this extremely unlikely, based on close inspection of the design and mechanical details.
DAMW (Deutsche Amt Fur Material und Warenprufung) was situated in the old BMW factories in Eisenach. DAMW also produced EMW cars (Eisenach Motoren Werken?). They later became Automobile Werke Eisenach (AWE) and produced 2-litre sports cars.
When the V12 in question arrived in Britain it was given bodywork based on some 1950 photographs and an Auto-Union badge. The car is now on display in the Donington museum
Some authorities claim that the car was a prototype 1940 Auto-Union, when pesumably the engine would have been 1.5-litres and supercharged. Denis Jenkinson thought this extremely unlikely, based on close inspection of the design and mechanical details.
#22
Gerr
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Posted 20 June 2000 - 17:56
rear engined/de dion cars also include;
Caldwell D7 CanAm 1967 (raced)
Rounds Rocket Indy 1949 (DNQ)
Alan Fraser GT Imp 1967 (not raced)http://users.bart.nl.../fraser_gt.html
Maserati tipo 64 1961 (raced)
Caldwell D7 CanAm 1967 (raced)
Rounds Rocket Indy 1949 (DNQ)
Alan Fraser GT Imp 1967 (not raced)http://users.bart.nl.../fraser_gt.html
Maserati tipo 64 1961 (raced)
#23
Roger Clark
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Posted 20 June 2000 - 21:27
Gerr,
THat's a very interesting list. Most of them come from forms of racing that I know little about, but the Maserati is particularly interesting.
It seems that the works supported teams used the tipo 63 in 1961. They used both 4 and V12-cylinder engines. A deDion car appeared at Pescara towards the end of the season, that was presumably the 64. THe 64 appeared again at the 62 Targa Florio. As far as I can discover, there were no Maseratis at the Nurburgring 1000ks,apart from an old 61 enetered by Camoradi. By Le Mans the were running T151s which were front engined V8s. I don't know what, if any Maseratis ran at Sebring.
THe front engined cars were used occassionally from 62 to 64, but a rear engined V8 ran at Le Mans in 65. I don't know whether that had de Dion rear suspension.
So did the Tipo 64 only race on two occassions? If anybody can offer more information on these cars I would be grateful
THat's a very interesting list. Most of them come from forms of racing that I know little about, but the Maserati is particularly interesting.
It seems that the works supported teams used the tipo 63 in 1961. They used both 4 and V12-cylinder engines. A deDion car appeared at Pescara towards the end of the season, that was presumably the 64. THe 64 appeared again at the 62 Targa Florio. As far as I can discover, there were no Maseratis at the Nurburgring 1000ks,apart from an old 61 enetered by Camoradi. By Le Mans the were running T151s which were front engined V8s. I don't know what, if any Maseratis ran at Sebring.
THe front engined cars were used occassionally from 62 to 64, but a rear engined V8 ran at Le Mans in 65. I don't know whether that had de Dion rear suspension.
So did the Tipo 64 only race on two occassions? If anybody can offer more information on these cars I would be grateful
#24
karlcars
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Posted 21 June 2000 - 18:23
This is a super thread and I'm glad people remember the Sacha Gordine! I agree with those who say that the V12 East German car is not an authentic Auto Union. AU made progress toward the design of such a car pre-war but never came close to completing an actual car or even an engine.
When I was in Europe in 1958 I recall seeing, I think at the 'Ring, a rear-engined Cooper-type vehicle I believe brought there by Brian Naylor. My vague recollection is that it used a 4-cylinder Maser engine bolted right up to a 250F-type transaxle and a de Dion axle. Somewhere I have a photo of at least this part of the car. Was it a JBS? Could be.
The rear-engined Maserati is a great example. It had not only a birdcage-type frame but also an incredible birdcage-type de Dion axle! Awesome.
As to cars that REALLY have de Dion front axles, the Miller front-drive is a good example. The Cord L29 was another, vaguely linked to Miller's patents.
When I was in Europe in 1958 I recall seeing, I think at the 'Ring, a rear-engined Cooper-type vehicle I believe brought there by Brian Naylor. My vague recollection is that it used a 4-cylinder Maser engine bolted right up to a 250F-type transaxle and a de Dion axle. Somewhere I have a photo of at least this part of the car. Was it a JBS? Could be.
The rear-engined Maserati is a great example. It had not only a birdcage-type frame but also an incredible birdcage-type de Dion axle! Awesome.
As to cars that REALLY have de Dion front axles, the Miller front-drive is a good example. The Cord L29 was another, vaguely linked to Miller's patents.
#25
Roger Clark
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Posted 21 June 2000 - 23:19
I believe that Miller was the first to use a de Dion suspension, (apart from De Dion-Bouton) on there FWD cars, and then used virtually the same system on the back of o RWD version. This was several years before the W125. You can'taccuse M-B of copying though; Stuttgart engineers never used anything that wasn't invented there!
#26
Ray Bell
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Posted 21 June 2000 - 23:26
I've never heard that mentioned of the Millers and Cords before... does anyone have any pics, I'd love to see that.
#27
desmo
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Posted 22 June 2000 - 02:15
Here are some good views of how the de Dion was used on the FWD Miller:
And the Marx Bros. ride in a Cord L-29:
I'm still looking for a good photo of the front suspension of the L-29...
And the Marx Bros. ride in a Cord L-29:
I'm still looking for a good photo of the front suspension of the L-29...
#28
KzKiwi
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Posted 22 June 2000 - 09:26
Naylors cars were called 'JBW-Maseratis' and were essentially copies of the Coopers. There were two built- 1 in 1959 with the other following in 1961. I can only find reference to the suspension layout on the 1960 spec of the first car. This mentions independent suspension front and rear, with wishbones and coil springs.
Gerr, well done on tracking down the 'Rounds Rocket'. Does this car still exist??
With reference to the DAMW/Auto Union, there is a very good article in the December 1985 issue of 'Classic and Sportscar' magazine. This has been written by Doug Nye and at the end of the article he makes the comment that he is "...convinced the chassis is at least 75% Auto Union practice and design".Hmmm.
And did you know that the Sacha Gordine had a magnesium engine block as well as the mag. DeDion axle! It also had a cast magnesium sequential type gearbox!
Gerr, well done on tracking down the 'Rounds Rocket'. Does this car still exist??
With reference to the DAMW/Auto Union, there is a very good article in the December 1985 issue of 'Classic and Sportscar' magazine. This has been written by Doug Nye and at the end of the article he makes the comment that he is "...convinced the chassis is at least 75% Auto Union practice and design".Hmmm.
And did you know that the Sacha Gordine had a magnesium engine block as well as the mag. DeDion axle! It also had a cast magnesium sequential type gearbox!
#29
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 June 2000 - 20:59
Knew I could count on you, desmo! And isn't that a lovely bit of workmanship (and restoration/maintenance/presentation) on the Miller?
As for the magnesium, the best squander of this stuff would surely have been De Tomaso's 1962/3 F1 car with the cast magnesium mono chassis.
As for the magnesium, the best squander of this stuff would surely have been De Tomaso's 1962/3 F1 car with the cast magnesium mono chassis.
#30
Gary C
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Posted 05 June 2001 - 00:10
just found this old thread.
If anyone would like to see, I have some pictures of the 58 at my website at www.yesterdaysracers.com taken at a test day at Silverstone in March.
If anyone would like to see, I have some pictures of the 58 at my website at www.yesterdaysracers.com taken at a test day at Silverstone in March.
#31
bobbo
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Posted 05 June 2001 - 02:00
THANK YOU, GARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#32
DOHC
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Posted 25 May 2002 - 10:03
Originally posted by Roger Clark
I believe that the "58" was tested with a DFW, the 2.5 litre Tasman version of the DFV. It was probably the same car as the 57.
This is confirmed by Michael Oliver in his excellent book about the history of the Lotus 49. Only one chassis was ever built.
#33
Patrick Italiano
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Posted 27 May 2002 - 13:48
Originally posted by Roger Clark
KzKiwi and Marco have got it between them. THe cars I ws thinking of were the A-U D-tye, the Bugatti and the Chaparral (racers) and the Alfa 512, the SAcha-Gordine, the Lotus and the Ferrari (non-racers). I'd forgotten about the DAMW, which is a bit silly as I was looking at it only a month ago.
Am I right in thinking that the Ferrari appeared briefly in deDion form in practice for the French GP?
A little bit late reply
- only two years late, but hey, we're dealing with older stuff...Alfa Romeo tipo 163 - 1941
#34
2F-001
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Posted 27 May 2002 - 21:36
Another great thread...
Just a few random thoughts:
Strathcarron is now defunct - was intended as a sort of ''track-day'' car to rival Caterham/Radical/Elise/Rocket etc.
2H, as Roger said, was originally meant to be a coupé, but it is said that (among other problems) Surtees refused to drive it.
As far I remember, it only appeared at Laguna Seca with the humungous (''if it was any bigger, it would need a stewardess'') wing. 2H was especially strange because the de Dion tube (actually a fabricated box section bridging the transaxle) had a pivot in the middle. I have pics but nowhere to post them to.
2H was fairly odd all round - it was originally built with a kind of active ride.
(Roger, I think you meant that in a de Dion set-up, the diff was kept as sprung weight, not unsprung).
There isn't too much on Chaparral on the web is there? I've been collecting bits and pieces for ages (I wrote a slightly naive college thesis on the subject, and had planned to do a proper book) - maybe I should be thinking about trying to build a site?
One currently used tweak to a de Dion, on newer Caterham Sevens, is a sort of Watts-style linkage used longitudinally on one side only... don't have it on mine so can't comment on its efficacy. Mind you, Sevens seem to work quite well with all sorts of bits that are theoretically flawed, so maybe not a good example.
Just a few random thoughts:
Strathcarron is now defunct - was intended as a sort of ''track-day'' car to rival Caterham/Radical/Elise/Rocket etc.
2H, as Roger said, was originally meant to be a coupé, but it is said that (among other problems) Surtees refused to drive it.
As far I remember, it only appeared at Laguna Seca with the humungous (''if it was any bigger, it would need a stewardess'') wing. 2H was especially strange because the de Dion tube (actually a fabricated box section bridging the transaxle) had a pivot in the middle. I have pics but nowhere to post them to.
2H was fairly odd all round - it was originally built with a kind of active ride.
(Roger, I think you meant that in a de Dion set-up, the diff was kept as sprung weight, not unsprung).
There isn't too much on Chaparral on the web is there? I've been collecting bits and pieces for ages (I wrote a slightly naive college thesis on the subject, and had planned to do a proper book) - maybe I should be thinking about trying to build a site?
One currently used tweak to a de Dion, on newer Caterham Sevens, is a sort of Watts-style linkage used longitudinally on one side only... don't have it on mine so can't comment on its efficacy. Mind you, Sevens seem to work quite well with all sorts of bits that are theoretically flawed, so maybe not a good example.
#35
mat1
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Posted 28 May 2002 - 09:11
Originally posted by 2F-001
One currently used tweak to a de Dion, on newer Caterham Sevens, is a sort of Watts-style linkage used longitudinally on one side only... don't have it on mine so can't comment on its efficacy. Mind you, Sevens seem to work quite well with all sorts of bits that are theoretically flawed, so maybe not a good example.
Yes, if you don't have much wheel travel, the flaws of a suspension geometry are not very important. using a Watts linkage on just one side seems very flawed to me.
Returning to the Lotus 58, a FRONT De Dion layout (which is the same a beam axle for a front suspension) surprises me very much. i assume the 58 had RWD. What is the use of that? Can anyone comment on that?
mat1
#36
Viss1
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Posted 29 May 2002 - 00:48
Complained about the lack of visibility (rightly so, given the pics), and I believe made Hall raise the seating position, rendering the original concept moot.Originally posted by 2F-001
it is said that (among other problems) Surtees refused to drive it.
