The Australian constructors

Originally posted by Falcadore
More piccies - and a couple of questions

Cheetah Mk.8 (more of a Formula Atlantic by this stage I suppose)

Formula 2, I would have thought, but they were interchangeable...

Welsor, unsure of model, described as Waggott powered

Not Waggott as in TC4V or anything, but a Waggott modified engine...

This one would have a bored out (to the 1300 limit) Datsun 1200 as it's not the BMC A-series, beam axle Welsors had both of these engines. David Seldon drove one most famously. You can see the beam axle in the pic.

Monaco-Peugeot is the only description I have for this. Any help?

A one-off from Melbourne.

and Wortmeyer SCV - currently Peter Gumley's multi-Australian championship winning hillclimber, but I have seen it listed as such in F5000 races and I'm not sure if it was then a F5000 or AF2/FPacific padding?

Jack Wortmeyer named all his cars the same, no matter what they were called previously...

The 'SCV' stood originally for 'supercharged Volkswagen', that engine being fitted to a hillclimb Special. Along the way he collared that name onto the Mildren F5000, which this one clearly isn't. In fact, I think I see signs of a VW flat four in the back of this car, and this does appear to be running somewhere other than a regular circuit.

Where's the pic from?

Edited by Ray Bell, 14 October 2009 - 20:22.

Falcadore, The Cheetah Mk8 is an AF2 car powered by a Golf, the Welsor is Jim Templeman's, the Monaco Peugeot is an ex Victorian car with a long history there and recently became a Queensland resident, Peter Gumley's car has always been a hillclimber and has been progressively updated over the years and of course has had unprecedented success in hillclimbs in Australia, only recently have some other competitors been able to approach its times.

Jack Wortmeyer named all his cars the same, no matter what they were called previously...

The 'SCV' stood originally for 'supercharged Volkswagen', that engine being fitted to a hillclimb Special. Along the way he collared that name onto the Mildren F5000, which this one clearly isn't. In fact, I think I see signs of a VW flat four in the back of this car, and this does appear to be running somewhere other than a regular circuit.

Where's the pic from?

Looks like queensland, Mt Cotton i think??? could be wrong

Actually Peter will be competeing in the SCV in a couple of days here in the SA champs at colligrove. i'll try and get some pics... no action shots unfortunately as i'm entered in libre too. it should be a good day for anyone in the adelaide area as Brett hayward is heading down in his new car after the old one set a 29 second time at the last state champs (i think he's only the fourth person to do it) and will be going head to head with peter gumley and Andrew Mitchell in the turbo shrike now with more power(about 650hp) and even more wings if that was possible. heres hoping these three australian cars can give the record a nudge.

Jack Wortmeyer named all his cars the same, no matter what they were called previously...

What was the F5000, Palliser/Franklen/Mildren ?

CAMS authorised the name change as Jack believed there was commercial advantage for Alec to continue calling the car a Mildren, which it clearly was not.

Log booked as SC5 - not SCV

Erol

Indeed you're right there, Erol...

I think that the 'commercial advantage' Mildren might not have had was secondary to Jack's reasons, however.

Couple of Britton cars:

Rennmax BN6 sports racing car



And a recent photo of the Mildren Rennmax - if the Franklen car was the AM6 and the yellow Submarine was the AM5 this would be the AM4?

Don't know who put up all those numbers. We certainly didn't at AMR in those days. But for the sake of positive identification, I guess the numbers will work.

By the way Ray, you would lose the bet on the rear wing. That was one of three configurations we ran during that era, on that car. I do have the pics from the first build. That was a Rennmax rebuild of an original Brabham that was crashed by Max.

Thanks for that Kevin - will drop all numbers. It was suggested earlier in the thread. The Speed on Tweed program from the year I took that photo described the Stewart car as AMF1, but I'm guessing that was to call it something to differentiate with both Waggott TC4V cars running.

I knew about what SCV stood for, and have seen Gumley win I think three of his AHCs, what threw me was the presence of the of the vehicle name in F5000 records. A cigar cross section vehicle from the cabin forward, there are elements of the design which date to an earlier time, but against much later creations, modified from the forms of Bowins, Dallaras, Van Diemens and Lolas it has remained the premier hillclimber in this country for a decade or more. In my position, covering the events I do it would have been difficult for me to avoid it.

The photo was indeed taken in the cramped confines of Mount Cotton. The place looks resplendent these days, MGCCQ have put a lot into the old place recently.

Anyways, that mystery solved.

Back to the Welsor briefly, I've seen a few Welsor's, Clubman, 1300, what is this one? Thanks for the engine specs.

And overnight, searching for some pictures of some of the present day Formula Robertsons's for posting I've come across a bunch of pre-60s historic specials taken at the 2000 AGP which I may have posted previously, some years ago. Took two dead computers to a IT person and a bunch of photos were recovered. I'll put them up shortly, unless it's not of interest to the thread.

Edited by Falcadore, 15 October 2009 - 03:01.

Some of the better known cars

Where else to start? The first of the Maybach specials.


The Hudson powered creation Frank Kleinig was most associated with.


Is this the Lex Davison Jaguar powered HWM F2?

The chassis of Max Pearson's Rennmax is actually stamped AMR 1 , which was duly noted by myself when I did the Certificate of Description
inspection at Eastern Creek at the first Tasman Revival meeting.
The chassis is stamped on the back of the instrument panel support tubes.

Bryan Miller , in this case , Chairman Historic Eligibility Committee.

Erol hasn't mentioned it but,he actually built the SCV and was it's driver in the early days. He should be able to answer any questions about that car.

Dale.

Originally posted by kevinbartlett
.....By the way Ray, you would lose the bet on the rear wing. That was one of three configurations we ran during that era, on that car. I do have the pics from the first build. That was a Rennmax rebuild of an original Brabham that was crashed by Max.

When I first saw a pic of the car with this wing I tried to find a pic of it 'in period' using one like it...

Max's first drive in the car seems to have been at the Farm in '69. That was Rindt's day and I can't find a pic of it on that day, then at Sandown he didn't run, but he was at Symmons the following week (or a fortnight later?) and a pic in RCN shows he definitely had no wing. None.

Bathurst was the next outing, Peter Wherrett goes to some trouble to list the cars with wings (though it might not be definitive, he doesn't list Brabham) and though Geoghegan had one and Harvey and Allen had bi-wing arrangements, no mention is made of Max despite him being third on the grid.

These were the times of drag versus downforce debates, you'll recall. In F1 there would be cars running wings one race and not the next. Anyway, Max got sideways over Skyline on the first lap, Allen ran into him and both were out, so photos of the car in that race are rare indeed.

Then came the ban on high wings.

I'm willing to be proved wrong, but I don't think I am. The V8 Brabham was a different issue, of course, it had a wing from mid-1968. Or earlier?

From Mark's pics from the 2000 AGP Historic demo : Beside the Maybach in the top pic is David St Julian's Lagonda Rapier Special and the HWM Jag in the bottom pic is a NZ built replica owned at the time by Tim Byrne and now owned by Roger Ealand of Speed on Tweed fame.

The ex Davison car is still where it has been for over 40 years, hibernating ! Incidentally I recently saw some neat pics of it racing at Lakeside and Lowood complete with the Centaur type GT hardtop body which it still has but the top was removed in the mid sixties.

When I first saw a pic of the car with this wing I tried to find a pic of it 'in period' using one like it...

Max's first drive in the car seems to have been at the Farm in '69. That was Rindt's day and I can't find a pic of it on that day, then at Sandown he didn't run, but he was at Symmons the following week (or a fortnight later?) and a pic in RCN shows he definitely had no wing. None.

Bathurst was the next outing, Peter Wherrett goes to some trouble to list the cars with wings (though it might not be definitive, he doesn't list Brabham) and though Geoghegan had one and Harvey and Allen had bi-wing arrangements, no mention is made of Max despite him being third on the grid.

These were the times of drag versus downforce debates, you'll recall. In F1 there would be cars running wings one race and not the next. Anyway, Max got sideways over Skyline on the first lap, Allen ran into him and both were out, so photos of the car in that race are rare indeed.

Then came the ban on high wings.

I'm willing to be proved wrong, but I don't think I am. The V8 Brabham was a different issue, of course, it had a wing from mid-1968. Or earlier?

Ray some pics are on Autopics site showing the Stewart car at W/F in 1969 seek items 69526 and 7

Not sure if it's the position of the rear wing that is the point here, or how it's mounted.

Here are a couple of images of the car showing no supports attached to the rollover bar.


Apologies for the quality - I have many slides discoloured like this and would appreciate any tips on how to rectify them. I've tried 'auto balance'.



But here is one of another Mildren car with those supports.

Edited by Wirra, 15 October 2009 - 22:45.

Yeah, KB, they're from after the wing ban, which came in about May...

If you look at those pics you'll see the wing is lower and mounted like it's part of the bodywork, not on struts with braces to the roll bar as it is in the pic Mark has posted. Pics from both the July and December Farm meetings show it in that guise... the Sub has similar.

Found this slide when looking for the ones above. Looks to me like Fred Gidson at Catalina in a Niel Allen colour scheme Brabham. Any ideas?

Edited by Wirra, 15 October 2009 - 22:47.

Originally posted by Wirra
Not sure if it's the position of the rear wing that is the point here, or how it's mounted.....

Mainly it's the height...

That involves position and method of mounting, of course. Like I just mentioned, the ban on high wings came just after Bathurst and from what I can find the car didn't run a wing before Bathurst. I simply don't know what it had at Bathurst, a race start photo would be most instructive!

KB and the V8 Brabham certainly had a high wing, as in the pic you've posted above. And the Sub got wings too, but they were hauled down to the new limits when the ban came in.

.... And the Sub got wings too,...

Originally posted by Wirra
Found this slide when looking for the ones above. Looks to me like Fred Gibson at Catalina in a Niel Allen colour scheme Brabham. Any ideas?

That's exactly what it is...

Sad but true.

From Mark's pics from the 2000 AGP Historic demo : Beside the Maybach in the top pic is David St Julian's Lagonda Rapier Special and the HWM Jag in the bottom pic is a NZ built replica owned at the time by Tim Byrne and now owned by Roger Ealand of Speed on Tweed fame.

Behind the Lagona in red is a MG TC based special. The bronze car is a WM Holden and in yellow is the Norman Eclipse Zephyr.

Doug Whiteford's 1950 AGP winning Black Bess Flathead V8 special


Crowfoot-Holden


Pack shot - Silver #19 is listed 1946 Ford special, red #56 is CMW-Ford and beyond that is another MG TC based special

Originally posted by Falcadore
.....Where else to start? The first of the Maybach specials.

Not the first...

This is a replica of Maybach II.

The wings were certainly in the low position on the Rennmax from new as the back yard shot with Alec, Glenn & Ian next to car as finished fitted with Waggott 1850. Other shots show comp with sub fitted with high at Fuji 69 and low with max behind at the farm, again 69. note lack of any wings at Fuji Leo G., Max S. and Glynn S., in the interests of top speed.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, Kevin...

The wing as presented on the Max Pearson entry...



...is simply not like the original. I seem to recall that it was built even higher by (I think it was) Greg Smith. Unless, of course, it ran a wing at Bathurst... and the team's (and probably Max's) feelings on top speed at Mt Fuji probably mirror what they would have thought at Bathurst.

Edited by Ray Bell, 16 October 2009 - 01:03.

...Sad but true.

Ray - I'm not quite with it on this statement, would you elaborate a bit... thanks?

Not the first...

This is a replica of Maybach II.

Really? The car that died a nasty death at Southport? If it's a replica is it even Maybach powered? Seen that car a few times since then with the Harboroughs and whilst I've always been busy the word replica never came up even on official documentation at events I've been commentating. When you are stuck in some perches you don't get the chance the research on foot as much as I would like.

Edited by Falcadore, 16 October 2009 - 03:56.

Some sports bodied vehicles.

Carter-Corvette - is that the Appendix K car of Murray Carter's from way back?


And the Lou Molina Monza



and for something completely different, one of Brett Upton's creations from WA, a Stealth RF94, one of their heavy modification of mid 90's Van Diemens that prooved so effective in the late 90s and early 00's making older cars significantly quicker with updated suspension and this very non-Van Diemen bodywork, which as mentioned elsewhere is not showing up on Ajay Formula Vees.

Not the first...

This is a replica of Maybach II.

Actually a replica of the first. Maybach I was rebuilt in single-seater form in 1954 (Maybach II) and wrecked at Southport - as Mark says. The W196-like Maybach III then followed

Edited by David McKinney, 16 October 2009 - 06:22.

Actually a replica of the first. Maybach I was rebuilt in single-seater form in 1954 (Maybach II) and wrecked at Southport - as Mark says. The W196-like Maybach III then followed

Argh, silly me, of course its a replica. Forgotten the I was a donor for the II.

Originally posted by Wirra
Ray - I'm not quite with it on this statement, would you elaborate a bit... thanks?

You might say I preferred Niel Allen to Fred Gibson... simple as that...

Originally posted by Falcadore
Really? The car that died a nasty death at Southport? If it's a replica is it even Maybach powered? Seen that car a few times since then with the Harboroughs and whilst I've always been busy the word replica never came up even on official documentation at events I've been commentating. When you are stuck in some perches you don't get the chance the research on foot as much as I would like.

Bob Harborrow built it... or had it built... and it does have a Maybach engine.

If it's not a replica, it would be very hard to define what it is. The car, as you mention, was destroyed at Southport and then the Maybach III was built to replace it. Maybach III obviously used some of the undamaged or usable parts, I don't think anything from Maybach II of any great substance would have been left.

The Carter Corvette did run with a roof c. 1961.

Carter-Corvette - is that the Appendix K car of Murray Carter's from way back?

What a great looking car! I am really enjoying checking out these Australian cars - keep it up!

Trust me, it looked terrible with a roof...

And it really doesn't belong in this thread as it was a one-off. But I guess there's nowhere else, is there?

Trust me, it looked terrible with a roof...

And it really doesn't belong in this thread as it was a one-off. But I guess there's nowhere else, is there?

Almost every picture of an Appendix K car I've seen looks terrible. The John French Centaur-Waggott I see a fair bit is just about the only passable one. Think 1950's and modern Daytona Prototypes for a sense of how disproportionate they looked. MRA did a piece on them awhile back. Interesting if in the end a blind alley for racing here.

That was the end of those 'Specials' pictures. Still digging through my collection for other examples of local constructors, or like in the case of the above Stealth, modifiers.

Bunch of Elfins today...

Elfin 623 AF3 car.


Very pretty Elfin Mallala sports car.


Much more recent, Elfin Crusader Formula Vee.


And a Formula 2 or 3 car I don't recognise.

odds and sods package, some old (for me) poor fence obscured piccies

While a very British Reynard 90D sits in the foreground, in the background is a Shrike NB89H. From humble beginnings a very effective car.


More Vee, a Jacer F2K4


Formula Ford this one, Spectrum 05c


Mentioned a bit recent, Asp 340


More small sporties, Prosport Mulsanne leads Hooper SNH9901, a Westfield SEi follows. More distantly a Fraser Clubman in black with a red/gold Mallock Mk.31 alongside.


A Prosport Mulsanne in more dramatic pose.

Bunch of Elfins today...

Elfin 623 AF3 car.


Very pretty Elfin Mallala sports car.

The 623 AF3 looks incredibly like a Brabham BT38!

But the Mallala is lovely!

Origninally posted by Falcadore
Bunch of Elfins today...

Very pretty Elfin Mallala sports car.

Yes, a very pretty car, so well looked after it hurts...

Exactly as Greg Cusack ran it back in '63.

And a Formula 2 or 3 car I don't recognise.

If that's an Elfin it would be a 622, I'd think...

F2 car with that size wheel. That's the old 1600 'free design' F2, not the single cam F2. Looks like an FT200 under the wing and the size of the wheels is a giveaway.

odds and sods package, some old (for me) poor fence obscured piccies

While a very British Reynard 90D sits in the foreground, in the background is a Shrike NB89H. From humble beginnings a very effective car.


i'm guessing from the file name thats stan in the car? if so thats the one thats now a hillclimb car in Andrew Mitchells hands. i really have to get around to loading some pics up.


Mentioned a bit recent, Asp 340


thats an asp? thats a long way from where it started isn't it

I am fairly certain that is Stan in the car. I am fairly certain that is the car that is/was in the Birdwood Mill. The other Shrike was the hillclimb car after a prang at The GP? it was retired to the hills.
The other car is I think Al Galager [Or very maybe Bernie Stack though I am sure Als number was 99] who seems to have disapeared. He is the bloke that commisioned the last Veskanda that i dont think has ever hit the track.

With that ASP maybe we need a pic of Doigs to show what ASPs looked like!!

Stephen - for you a larger resolution picture of Bevan Batham's Mallala at a different angle to show off better it's flowing lines.

http://upload.wikime...lfinmallala.jpg

Bevan's small collection which include the John French Centaur are always stunningly presented. The cars do the tours of various historic meetings, not for a museum display case these cars, but that doesn't mean they don't look like museum cared for.

Yes Stan Keen is driving the ex-Poole Shrike. Keen himself converted it to a hillclimber if memory serves. The Reynard driver is Al Callagher. Taken at the 1995 Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide.

David Barram's continually modified Asp has long been one of the fastest Sports 1300s in the country, winning a national title event for the class as recently as IIRC five years ago. Looks different again now, that photo is from about 2003. Barram remains one of Queensland's fastest Sports and Production sports car drivers and regularly gets asked to drive other peoples cars at state and minor national level mini-enduros.

Edited by Falcadore, 30 October 2009 - 09:44.

There's never been a 'national title' for Clubmans/Sports 1300s...

Barram is certainly quick in that car, however.

Stephen - for you a larger resolution picture of Bevan Batham's Mallala at a different angle to show off better it's flowing lines.

http://upload.wikime...lfinmallala.jpg

Gosh! That looks even more stunning! Thanks.

It is, trust me...

I have one that shows it even better, must remember to post it.

With that ASP maybe we need a pic of Doigs to show what ASPs looked like!!

Doig's ASP 340B, a ASP F2/3 (now in QLD I think) and Guy Chick's ASP 340C. The 340C is what Barram's car started out as! There were a number of 340Cs built, 2 340Bs and 3 or 4 of the F2/3 cars. Doig's car is not a true Clubman in the Australian 1300cc sense having a 1600cc engine and doors etc, built to Group C specs. (Sorry about the quality of the photo).

Stephen - for you a larger resolution picture of Bevan Batham's Mallala at a different angle to show off better it's flowing lines.

http://upload.wikime...lfinmallala.jpg

Bevan's small collection which include the John French Centaur are always stunningly presented. The cars do the tours of various historic meetings, not for a museum display case these cars, but that doesn't mean they don't look like museum cared for.

Yes Stan Keen is driving the ex-Poole Shrike. Keen himself converted it to a hillclimber if memory serves. The Reynard driver is Al Callagher. Taken at the 1995 Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide.

David Barram's continually modified Asp has long been one of the fastest Sports 1300s in the country, winning a national title event for the class as recently as IIRC five years ago. Looks different again now, that photo is from about 2003. Barram remains one of Queensland's fastest Sports and Production sports car drivers and regularly gets asked to drive other peoples cars at state and minor national level mini-enduros.

The Shrike Stan is driving is NOT the hillclinb car. That is the one that is/was in the Birdwood Mill until very recently.Stanley won the 'Silver Star' for Alloy tub cars in that car pictured.

There's never been a 'national title' for Clubmans/Sports 1300s...

Barram is certainly quick in that car, however.

There certainly is a trophy, I've seen it in the CAMS boardroom collected amongst the other perrenial silverwear like the Australian Touring Car Championship, Australian Drivers' Championsahip, Super Touring, Sports Sedan, Production Car, etc etc and of course the odd looking Bugatti model mounted Australian Grand Prix trophy, the exact name of the title I don't recall, the convulted nature of Australian Championships, National Titles and National Series completely defeating any attempt by anyone outside the organisation to decipher.

While the Category has since morphed into Supersports (there are now three different classes called Supersports, two of them are almost identical - grrrrrrr), and their single event title meet is actually coming up very shortly, here in Queensland this year, the trophy continues.

The CAMS mandated that neither FVee or Clubmans should have a national championship...

However, the clubs associated with the classes, the FVee Associations and the Clubman Racing Associations, got together and decided to run an annual 'Challenge'.

Of course, it could be that the CAMS has decided that all of this is okay and they might have adopted them as something of official championships, but that would be in very recent times if at all.

The CAMS mandated that neither FVee or Clubmans should have a national championship...

However, the clubs associated with the classes, the FVee Associations and the Clubman Racing Associations, got together and decided to run an annual 'Challenge'.

Of course, it could be that the CAMS has decided that all of this is okay and they might have adopted them as something of official championships, but that would be in very recent times if at all.

The Fvee associations run a Fvee nationals every year, as do HQ, Improved Production and many other classes. While not a championship it is a status too win.There is not that many classes with a National Championship Status and clubbies defenitly do not, though i guess they run a 'Nationals' too.

The first of these was a Vee event at Hume Weir... I came across the report on it a couple of months ago...

It wasn't called a 'Challenge' at that time, but something more like 'Championship' and I guess someone read the Riot Act (or the CAMS manual...) to them and it became the 'Formula Vee National Challenge' in subsequent years. This was run at Phillip Island a number of times, then began to rotate between the states.

The next class to do the same was the Clubmans. Their 'National Challenge' rotated between the three East Coast states from the beginning. HQs came later.

The point is that the 'National Challenge' deal began and continued because there was a CAMS preclusion of a National Championship event or series. This was aimed at keeping costs down... and if you want to see why, look at the FF Championship and similar.

Edited by Ray Bell, 31 October 2009 - 23:07.

The first of these was a Vee event at Hume Weir... I came across the report on it a couple of months ago...

According to this site, Hume Weir was neither the venue for the first Vee 'Nationals' nor the first of the prior EMPI trophy races. I was pit crew for Paul Bernasconi in 1972 when he won the EMPI trophy at Hume Weir.

There was a terrific race for the EMPI trophy at Warwick Farm involving Colin Bond in the Bardahl Vee which really put Vees on the map. Looks like it may have been 1970 when Bernie Haehnle won.

http://www.fvee.org.au/nationals/

Edited by Wirra, 31 October 2009 - 23:56.