The freehold of Brands, Snetterton, Cadwell & Oulton and the Silverstone operating lease are all up for sale at reportedly 1/3 of what the owners paid last time. Circuit attendance and TV viewing figures have been progressively on a downward trend - with just occassional bright spots like the Goodwood revival meeting. Grids have fragmented and thinned out.

Race entry fees are now in real terms double what they would have been 30 years ago - so very much less affordable to the ordinary wage earning taxpayer who used to be the bedrock of club racing. Likewise admission charges are now a real deterent to attendance as never before.

The character of the racing has changed, one make racing was one event in twelve - now its routinely the overwhelming majority (who would watch F1, Le Mans, or the WRC if they were one make ? )There is less variety of cars on the bill than was the case .

Drivers & spectators are now short changed. In the 70's for instance the brilliantly run Thames Estuary Automobile Club could routinely run 10 even 12 practice sessions and races in one day at Lydden, Brands or Snetterton with slick military efficiency which delivered great value and entertainment (Without the need for the clerk of the course to parade himself round the track in a borrowed road car endlessly creating dead track time - or even crashing it as at last weekends VSCC meeting where he wrote off the new Invicta wearing no seat belts put himself in hospital )

The word is now that at least one of the major organising clubs has "worrying financial problems " Too many petty inappropriate rules have been handed down from F1 and the FIA to national and club level to the detriment of all.Clubs that used to be run after hours by a team of unpaid enthusiasts,have bought expensive premises, hired chief executives with company cars, large salaries, expense accounts , and support staff and put all this financial burden on the competitors - the truth is , it is just not popular enough to sustain these costs in the long run.

In a climate of worsening world economic conditions UK racing may go in to total melt down, its to be hoped the circuits do not turn in to housing estates before it can be reborn with long term sustainable costs and realism from circuit owners and organisers , with their customers in mind -- the entrant and the spectator.

Richard - we share similar fears....

DCN

This is a topic ive often wanted to bring up at TNF. Watching Legends of Motorsports on SPeedvision, it seems fans in the 50s-70s showed up to watch *anything* and now you can only get a crowd above 25k if you've got an F1 or NASCAR event.

There's too much racing in the UK and not enough of it is any good - quite a simple equation.

- the only series that can consistently draw a crowd is the BTCC, so what's it done? Cut the number of meetings and gone to double-headers. What's wrong with 12 or 14 one-hour races headlining a range of meetings? The formula is about right now, though I'd rather see the Production class separated out into something more like the old National Saloon Car Cup (ideally, replacing some of the poor one-make series we've got).

- GTs should be doing well but the category really struggles to get any attention and therefore it's hard for a grid of much over 20 cars to build up. A number of these tend to be (ahem) gentlemen amateurs and journeymen and it just belittles the efforts of the serious guys.

- F3.... I wouldn't go to see it if it was headlining a race on its own, because the damn cars are virtually glued to the ground and the racing's always processional. Worth seeing in order to keep tabs on new drivers, but a thriller for casual fans? No.

- the BTCC supporting one-make scene. Yawn. Same old faces shifting from series to series, usually spitefully punting off youngsters who are trying to break into something better. The same old tuggers seem to have been around everything from Renault Spyders, Clios, Rover Tomcat Coupes, MGFs and probably now SEATS. Yawn yawn yawn, a marketing director from Kettering has just savaged the rear bumper of a computer consultant from Worcester. I could see that on the motorways if I wanted to. The one exception to this rule was the Fiestas, which used to produce great racing.

- FFord - too expensive now, too few cars, and too many drivers staying in it too long. There's no way Westley Barber should've been allowed back in, either - the guy's had an expensive racing education and there should be rules about running in FFord if you've been in F3. Too many regional/circuit championships, there should be some well-defined "pyramid" system and/or the Festival should be boosted to be something really important with entries for it won through success elsewhere.

- FRenault - probably the best single-seater racing on the national scene, but Renault do virtually nothing to publicise it.

- National Supersports - another well-kept secret, but the grids are on the select side. Should be permanently on the bill with the BTCC in my 'umble. These cars could stimulate a lot of grassroots interest in sports cars. The old-style K-sports are superb too.

- Minis. Fanbloodytastic. I've almost invariably got a massive grin on my face after watching a Mini race, the engineering and preparation is superb, and the racing is nearly always great.

- Radicals - gorgeous cars, but zero public profile.

- AMOC, MGCC, Alfas, etc etc - the clubs generally put on very entertaining stuff with a wide range of cars. Not all the driving is top-notch, but the enthusiasm of everyone involved is great.

- bush-league single-seaters - Virtually off the horizon as far as bigger meetings go these days. EuroBoss, with a push, could get people behind it - seems to have pretty healthy grids these days and to actually have some good drivers. Very hard to see junior single-seaters other than FRenault or FFord on the bill at promoted meetings these days. I'd love to see the likes of ARP F3 or Pre-83 FF2000 or something on the grid rather than repmobiles whingeing around behind the safety car.

- Historics - well, the classic saloon boys got their marching orders for putting on better races than the BTCC and it now seems that for the most part historics and contemporary cars don't race on the same bills. The UK historic scene seems a bit disjoint from the FIA one. Jewel in the crown is obviously Goodwood (one day I'll make it) though behind it the scene seems to have fragmented with bits of Coys-as-was now stuck at Rockingham and bits at Silverstone.

- single-circuit stuff - well, fascinating if you can get to see it. Up to the circuits to promote their local classes and drivers, I guess. I don't see much about clubbie racing in the local media (then again we've really only got Croft at one end and Cadwell a bit out of other end of the TV region...)

As for circuits -

- despite the fact that Knockhill's in the middle of nowhere and a bit short, I think it's scandalous that the "British" touring car championship only visits England and, er, the Republic of Ireland.

- Clubbies just look lost at Rockingham. It's a bit like five-a-side at the Millennium Stadium...


Things I'd like to see -

- Nat'l Supersports and a powerful single-seater series accompanying the BTCC
- promote the GT/F3 package on a par with BTCC
- less "one-make mafia" racing

pete

My first race meeting was the "Motor Racing" Silver Salver at Brands in 1965. The feature race was a battle between Chris Irwin and Piers Courage in their 1 litre F3 "screamers" (Both GP drivers within two years). But the most memorable sight was Ron Fry's 250LM winning the sports car race from the middle of the front row. You won't see this years Le Mans winner at a British "clubbie" today! In those days you could see F1 action at Brands, Silverstone, Goodwood and Oulton Park and top GP names competing in saloon car events in support. Oh! Happy days.

It'll be interesting to see the attendance at the Brands Hatch CART meeting next week. The fact that Autosport are selling tickets at discounted prices makes me think that Brands could be having the same problem selling tickets as Rockingham had last year.

John

I still think the TVR Tuscans and the various Caterham series are the most entertaining to watch - pity they've all dissappeared off our terrestrial TV screens.

You all make very good points, how is it when its so obvious to us what is wrong, the circuit owners and club chiefs who constantly style themselves " professionals " are so out of touch with reality, and seem quite content to head for the cliff at full speed ?

Agreed Eric.

I recall watching all that on Eurosport about the mid-late 90's - great stuff. Exciting racing with enthusiastic and informed commentary.

It's still there Fred,only on Skysports,a weekly programme (repeated several times) alernately featuring TVRs & Caterhams.
Main reason I now go to hardly any racing is the amount on TV. So far this year I have seen F1,F3000,Champcar,IRL,NASCAR(Winston Cup & Bush)IPS,ALMS,GrandAm,British & Euro F3,Nissan World Series,BTCC,DTM,V8Stars,Lupos,F.BMW,British & German Porsche Carrera Cups,Legends,Irish Supercars,British FF.ETCC,FIAGT,F.RenaultV6,Clios,Maseratis,FIASCC+ Rallies,etc.

Richard
How right you are. One make formulas are the work of the devil. They stiffle innovation, and they have led to the demise of small race car manufactures.
The organising clubs are run by people more familiar with management strategies (the Marconi Syndrome) than enthusiasm. I can remeber when I could ring up the secretary of a meeting at home and get a late entry on the eve of a race.
Unfortunately the crowds won't come back to Motor Sport at its grass roots level, there are too many other diversions. In its hayday in the 50s through the 70's motor racing was one of the few activities permited on a Sunday. Now, Soccer, Rugby, Horse Racing and ofcourse out of town shopping centres all vie for the same customers.
So how to save the sport?

I have now brought this thread to the attention of Mr Colin Hilton Chief Executive or the RAC Motorsports Association and asked him if he will follow it - and indeed the many other excellent discussions on the forum.

You will no doubt have read his back page letter in "Autosport" in general terms on this very subject 2 weeks ago .

So I would like to think you can now put your suggestions as to how motor racing can be revitalised in this country in detail directly to the man who has overall control of UK motorsport by writing in this thread. Because I believe urgent action is now required and the more voices who can make themselves heard to those in charge the better.

Double-header weekend meetings are simply too much for most club circuits - most people won't turn up for both days. They skip the Saturday, and turn up for the Sunday when there is more racing. We used to be able to run GT and F3 meetings in a single day, why not now? Plus I hate marshalling weekend meetings - no time at home to rest on the weekend. There is a drop in the number of people marshalling, but it is forgotten that they are volunteers who have families and that they don't have to turn up.

Secondly, there are far too many series with a piddling number of cars on the grid. Merge them. It is simply too off putting to watch when you have seven cars all strung out and not racing.

Thirdly, run more races in a day. At Castle Combe you can get 10 races in a day (and a full crowd most of the time - take note!), whereas at Mallory Park you might get four some days. What is better value for money?

Agreed 100%. In the 70s you had qualifying from in the morning and a good minimum of about 8 races from 1 to about 6. These days for any meeting of stature that'd be spread over two days with marching bands, lunch breaks and a very dull bloke doing wheelies in a motorbike. I'm sure pure clubbies can do that, but the rot set in on the PowerTour where except for fairly exceptional meetings most of the support races seemed to be on Saturdays.

Is the solution simply put more racing into less time?

I don't see any national meeting being important enough to warrant a whole weekend (except for something where there genuinely is too much racing for one day)

I'm fairly disgruntled at the driving standards in a lot of one-make races too. Last year I was appalled every time I saw the Clios. For a series meant to be a gateway to the BTCC it was diabolical - partly because it's not really a gateway to the BTCC - it's largely a bunch of no-hopers tugging around and paying each other back for offs they caused in previous races. By far the most cynical and inept driving I've seen in nearly 30 years of spectating. I am filled with fear that these hooligans might get their hands on the new SEATs and wreck that series too.

Basic commercial realities have over the past 20-30 years tied British motor sport to to many circuit-owning public companies seeking to justify their existence by generating profit for their shareholders.

This flies in the face of British motor sport history over long decades, in which any form of motor sport at anything below International level - plus the vast majority of meetings short of Formula 1 at that sanction level - have NEVER generated consistent profits at a level acceptable to accountancy systems which demand 'adequate' return upon investment.

At absolute best, motor sport at its amateur levels used to be considered successful if it merely managed to wash its own face, to match income to expenditure and thereby to enable enthusiastic organising clubs and circuit promoters to survive into another season.

The evident commercial success of Formula 1 and of the Grand Prix (British in our case) has led to a situation in which top-heavy and costly government and commercial circuit stewardship seems to have become mesmerised by F1-style big numbers - big numbers in financial investment, big numbers in high-faluting staff (many in my experience who have proved to be a TOTAL waste of space), big numbers in the cost of regulation-compliance for circuits. All of which has rendered any likelihood of breaking even, much less of showing sufficient profit to survive, probably non-existent.

To attend a potentially important and signifcant British GT Championship round - for example - in recent years was to attend an event in which the population of pits and paddock seemed far in excess of that in the grandstands and spectator areas, and DNA testing of the few spectators would probably have revealed close blood relationship to the participants...so how few of them would in fact have paid to attend?

When I was press officer at Brands Hatch in 1964-65 we quite commonly entertained crowds of 4,000-7,000 paying spectators for the most minor of club meetings - numbers which would absolutely thrill (and amaze) any current-class club meeting promoter today. Racing was visibly varied, un-funneled into frozen uniformity by regulations written by boneheads intent upon preventing almost any area of the activity to enjoy any freedom whatsoever. Perhaps above all the visual aesthetic of most British circuits was itself attractive, the woods, hills and dales of Brands, Oulton or Cadwell, the tight round-the-lake intimacy of Mallory, the rolling grass aerodrome of Castle Combe - even the blasted heath aspect of Snetterton offered more attraction than it does today, while Silverstone's rolling acres had that special cachet of recognisable history and a sense of proper atmosphere - of being, like rugby players at Twickenham...at 'headquarters'.

Today of course there are many more ac tivities offering alternative attractions to British motor sport, so the game has to be raised in staging attractive evnts and promoting them with flair and ingenuity and real creative thought. The Goodwood events began from next to nothing and by creativity, application and sheer committed perspiration have signalled - in my admittedly partial opinion - a way ahead for British motor sport as a whole. Not only must it offer good competition, it must also offer a good look, a welcoming and attractive milieu, and an experience which keeps the anoraks (we anoraks???) happy while also providing a truly enjoyable and affordable family day out.

If half the money which has been squandered by public companies and governing bodies upon non-productive mechanisms and brainlessly-conceived 'infrastructure' and apparatchiks had been put into or behind good people who have the sport and industry's true survival in their hearts - at grass roots level, undazzled and unblinkered by Formula 1 fixations and aspirations - this situation would not be devloping as rapidly as it now is.

I frankly cannot see a way out which is a) likely and b) achievable in anything other than the very long term.

Which makes me unusually angry...

DCN

Peter,

If you do nothing else this year it is essential that you go to the Goodwood Revival race meeting in september this year on the Saturday or Sunday - preferably both in all respects its like nothing else available anywhere today.

Mr Nye Sir , - no wonder you are a successful and highly respected author. That is all right on the mark - and it paints a picture of just exactly what it is ,was and could be again to be a Motor Racing enthusiast, those are all the elements that used to make up the excitement and anticipation of going racing. We have had a very long period of wilderness in comparison and it really does not have to be like this even now .

Clearly nothing is going to change in the short run , but if enough people speak up - are prepared to get involved themselves we must remain optimistic

Well the GT championship became my favourite series to go and watch over the last few years. I caught it accompanying F3 a few years back and since then made a point of getting out to see it a couple of times a year. In theory the punters should be lapping it up - big, fast, noisy dream cars, drivers who are often at least as good as the BTCC boys, lots of colour, spectacle.... Now, someone spotted that it was a potential goldmine and tried to get the Interactive Sports Car series off the ground - to widespread apathy, and I doubt GTs have ever quite recovered...

...but no bugger is interested. OK, it got TV coverage from Channel Four, which seems to be on either at sparrow-fart or several hours earlier, tucked in amongst Over-60s wheelchair football from Bolivia.

Now, ok, there have been cars in GT that were largely there out of vanity and driven by people to whom the term journeymen would be excessively flattering -- that bloody blue and yellow 360 Modena that could never be bothered to take the chicane at Oulton two years running springs to mind). But any series that gave the punters John Cleland in a Viper.... why on Earth weren't they clamouring to see it?

Of course, no crowd => less people interested in sponsoring it => harder to find a budget => less cars => less spectacle => less crowd. That vicious circle seems to have started biting GTs hard this year. Of course, series like the Porsche cup had cars that should have been in GTs, but the posers who owned them were largely happier to thrash around in sprints taking one another off...

As far as the casual punter's concerned, national-level motorsports just don't seem to be getting decent coverage on terrestrial telly. BTCC - tucked away on ITV with minimal publicity. F3 and GTs - broadcast when nobody's watching. The rest? - well, yes, you can see it on Sky Sports and most of the coverage is fantastic (or at least was when I had Sky Sports - RIP ITV Digital), but I can't believe all that many people sign up to Sky Sports for the few hours of motorsports they fit in around the "all-balls" stuff. Put bluntly, the public don't know what's out there.

The BBC ran a motorsport magazine show ("Top Gear Motorsport", IIRC) for a while a few years back - covered the national scene pretty well. Hell, they used to make a big deal of the BTCC, F3, even FF2000. Blimey, it's not that long ago I remember them making an effort to show the Honda CRX Challenge!

If the punters don't know there's good racing out there - and there still is some! - how are they going to discover it?... And what about the largely new post-Senna F1 audience? Autosport? Hmmm. No room for more words in there about the national scene, it'll get in the way of the weekly Schumacher/Coulthard hagiographies. Motorsport News? Preaching to the converted.

Well done Pete.

You summed up the tv coverage situation perfectly.

I used to have Eurosport until NTL (Ireland) replaced it with E4.
I tried to get Sky digital but NTL's package doesn't include Eurosport - We're unable to put up a dish as the tenancy lease won't allow it.

I would get Sky Sports but Digital F1 is no more and I'm not paying all that cash for a minority share of the viewing time.

Had to laugh at your apt description of Channel 4's coverage - I'm usually up early on a Saturday morning yet still manage to miss the program. Mind, they've killed any interest I had in WRC with their awful and erratic coverage.

A normally reliable "fly on the wall " reports 3 offers submitted for combinations of the 4 UK circuits, - not all of them for motor racing !

At a guess prices per circuit would range from £3M to £18M ea. . Compared to current single house prices in the south - east of England commonly now in the millions and a certain well known motor racing impresario has a London residence up for sale in a fashionable part of central London at an asking price in excess of £60M, - surely these venues are within reach of the sort of successful business owners who routinely buy football clubs which are guaranteed loss makers !

We certainly need a "white Knight" to ride to the rescue , an enthusiast who could secure long tem motor racing at these circuits.

Costs must be slashed, race meetings must be run on far less paid staff. When you visit Silverstone do any of us need to pass through the 15 flourescent jacketed men each pointing to the car park probably on £100 a day each when paper arrows on a slick will do the same job ? Why do we need such a heavy Police presence- which has to be paid for ! When were the last riots at the 750 motor club ? Especially when crime rates out in the real world away from sporting events has never been higher or nastier . This staff & regulation overkill has to stop.

Circuits must get better utilisation, more unpaid marshalls should be recruited - and they should be treated much better with payment in kind, privileges, status, respect and gratitude - everything that has been missing for decades.

Why not Friday meetings or mid week or summer evenings? Even if that means more exhaust silencing - its well worth it , and all the dozens of other money making uses that these venues can be put to outside racing. More promotion and advertising, - no one outside motorsport has any idea there is an Indy Car race at Brands this weekend - its been kept a secret !

Tesco can prove to anyone lower prices = higher turnover. - Race meetings halve your costs , halve your prices, - and quadrouple your sales. - remember the massive crowds at the "SUN " and "FORD" free entrance days ? People are keen to come if you help them .

Silverstone want £138,000 for the hire of the circuit for 3 days Fri - Sun mid summer for a proposed 24 hr race - and they get to keep the gate receipts as well ! - so the competitor has to bear this cost alone - no wonder race meetings and races are being cancelled as I write. This level of cost will destroy motor racing in this country.

We are told public liability insurance cover required for hundreds of millions of pounds of damages is needed - and this is crippling - why not racing behind closed doors, or play to a members only crowd who will have already signed away unlimited damage rights - surely not beyond the wit of man to devise some solutions to this madness.

Strikes me that there's no "on ramp" to getting out and watching racing these days for most of the public. Clubbies are barely promoted at all outside the specialist press, TV coverage is tucked away at odd hours, and the only meetings people might've actually heard of (BTCC) are 20-25 quid to go to - it's easy to imagine a family day out at a BTCC meeting costing a hundred quid. That puts it up with horrors like theme parks....

What's needed is cheap, accessible meetings, at reasonably local circuits, with good racing. That's what I grew up with (ok, I had the advantage that I spent most of my formative years half a mile from a circuit) and that's the way to build a grassroots crowd.

Doesn't even have to be racing - sprints or hillclimbs, single-venue rallies, rallycross, anything. Just get people to get off their bums and go and find some good motorsport....

At the moment there's an almost complete dichotomy between F1 and "real" motorsport, and the public don't see that for a fraction of the price of going to Silverstone they can have a grand day out...

Can I just suggest one small way in which all of us can make a difference?

Next time you're scribbling down a date in your diary which you are going to devote to some race meeting or other, pick up the phone, and call a friend, and drag them along. Pick your meeting carefully, and your friend just might reward you by becoming a convert. I bagged one last autumn at an Aston Martin OC meeting - he's a film and music buff, so I lured him with the carrot of perhaps getting to spot Rowan Atkinson and Nick Mason on track, and bless their hearts, the AMOC and their Intermarque championship did the rest. One new acolyte signed up and hooked!

As for what's on the circuits - this is more problematic. I have a deep mistrust of one-make championships, and I do include the BRSCC's Radicals in that. To be perfectly honest, they are my cue for a trip to the bar.

Where are the modern-day equivalents of the Modsports championships? Cheap and cheerful base cars, minimal regulation, and marques that the casual visitor can relate to. I think it's terribly telling that I spent a few days at Snetterton a little while back, and the crowd at the HSCC and Classic Saloon Car Club meetings would have swamped the few visitors who came out to see the BRSCC.

I'm not downhearted, but I just hope some of the people who actually make the decisions are blessed with a little forethought - and the nous to read forums like this one to see what the humble punters are actually saying.

After the initial capital costs have been discounted, it's far cheaper to prticipate in a club sprint than to spectate at the British Grand Prix.

I think all three of you are absolutely right in all you say - all very well made points and really none of this is a case of nostalgia - its all just common sense, which should be blindingly obvious to the people who currently make the decisions which have put things in the present state.

Lets hope someone is listening.

Quite right. While there are issues that need sorting at a higher level, a small effort by a large number of people can also have a significant effect. Some, if not all, circuits now admit under-16s free of charge to race meetings, so persuade someone to bring their kids along and get them interested as well. After all, many of us got hooked on motor sport at an early age (even though I did have to pay to get in to Goodwood in the 60’s ).

Picking up on just one of the points raised so far, the proliferation and general dislike of too much one make racing (and are there ever any races now that aren’t part of a championship?). While a couple of series may provide close and interesting racing, there are too many in the UK that don’t. Can TNFers elsewhere advise what has been popular and successful in their part of the world over the years. For example, have there been categories with cars slotted into classes according to performance rather than engine size; and has this produced a greater variety of cars and close racing between them?

Yesterday's Sunday Telegraph reported the UK group of motor racing circuits Octagon were officially up for sale.

Octagon revealed current losses of £60M and the American parent Interpublic were reported to have debts of £2BN. Octagon value their group @ £70M (they paid £120M )

As I see it circuit owners short term demand for profits have resulted in unsustainable high circuit hire fees charged to clubs, who have merely passed that on to competitors and spectators - resulting in fewer competitors , smaller unattractive grids , fewer races per day, smaller gate attendances .

Circuit owners costs probably need to be halved , clubs need to return to unpaid volunteer workers to massively reduce competitor entry fees and cut admission charges.

With more competitors stepping forward racing championships need drastic changes to provide much more variety far,far, less one make racing with the sort of interesting vastly different mix of cars on a full programme of 12 races in the day that was the norm in the 1970's.

If race circuits are to be economically viable they will have to make value for money anda full day of good varied entertainment the absolute priority something with few exceptions that is absent today

Last week on another forum (ten-tenths) someone posted a reminder that the HSCC meeting at Brands was this weekend.

Trying to find out details I went to the Brands Hatch website. That said it was a 1-day meeting with no details. It gave no details such as time, cost, GP or Indy circuit, classes that would race. But it did give lots of details of hospitality suites and how to buy tickets for the Grand Prix.

So I tried the HSCC site. At least it told me that it was a two-day meeting. Again none of the details a potential spectator needed. It did give details of the different classes of racing they organise and some information on how to go racing.

I asked on the website and someone very kindly posted all the details.

Consequently, accompanied by my teenage son, I went along to the Sunday's racing, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

However, neither Brands Hatch or the organising club can accept any credit for my being there.

The Vultures are circling


Reports over the weekend from the agents Jones, Lang, LaSalle handling the sale of Octagon's group of 4 UK race circuits indicate determined interest from a number of property developers in the Brands Hatch site.

With the enormous clamour for new house building in the south east of England and with Brands being close to London, surrounded by motorway links and backed on to existing housing estates, the owners are reported to have said it is a commercial deal and will go to the highest bidder, and no one can determine what the end use will be.

I cannot see John Prescott or the Government blocking planning consent and a few thousand new homes will be " a nice little earner" in council tax receipts for the local authority.


So enjoy it while you can - it probably will not be there much longer.

Has anyone questioned the fact that there may just be too much racing in venues that no one is interested in? In the U.S.A. for example there are about 35 different racing groups and if you add motorcycles add another 5 or 10. That is one reason that I.R.L. and C.A.R.T. are in trouble and one has to fold up or maybe both will fold up their tent and go into the sunset. The day when Groups can just keep adding to tickets prices is gone and the promoters had better realize it.
M.L. Anderson

What excitement or anticipation is there in all this racing for 'series'?

Can't a promoter put on a race meeting for those who want to race, separating cars by their overall classes and potential lap times rather than keeping them with each other in their regular series groupings?

Series racing promotes year long sameness, a lack of interesting competition, uninspiring groupings of series so that everyone attending is getting a couple of races each day that don't interest them.

Sure, there are major series. They should remain... but after that, let the various groups who want to keep pointscores nominate meetings at which they can be won... then let the promoters put the cars in groups that will race each other. Work out a way that the pointscores can appropriately cover the results and take it from there.

One make things just detract from racing overall... they take competitors out of real classes and cars and encourage them to promote a useless series instead.

Let the racing go on... forget the series. The people in the grandstands don't really want to know about all those minor pointscores.

You both make good points there, the circuit owners and the promoting clubs have long since lost sight of the most important aspect i.e. the customer - the spectator and the competitor..

Its a very good point why do we always need to have points scoring championship series. Years ago we always had a Libre race i.e no rules at all you could bring and race whatever you liked - so single seaters vs sportscars vs supersaloons and especially on big long wide open tracks it worked well - and there was always somewhere to race ANY car. Like so much else in racing this is lost, and there is much less variety on offer now generally - most contempary race meetings now have a pretty poor menu.

It's interesting, thinking about how EuroBOSS got started - it basically grew up from the Lydden FLibre races (at one point it was open to anything over 1600cc with big wheels, IIRC), then became a championship, then became a European championship and now it's basically serious high-budget stuff.

The end-of-the-day Libre bash at clubbies anywhere was usually the most fun race. No championship pressure so everyone could go balls-out for fun - all kinds of cars and drivers... I miss that sort of thing. As well as a selection of cars that'd been running in other races, you'd get a bunch of F5000s, F2s and FAtlantics along with some specials brought along for the fun of it all giving it large down the Railway Straight at Aintree.... ooh yes!

I believe this was a 'Telegraph' misreport - valuation is allegedly US $70-million, NOT £-Sterling - which converts to around the £40-million mark - reputedly divided £20-million for Brands Hatch, £8-million each for Snetterton and Oulton Park and £4-million for Cadwell Park.

Quotes from Octagon's agents citing some 70 "interested parties" perhaps better reflects the number of sales information packs requested then the number of expressions of firm interest received....

Valuation is an interesting matter - there's obviously one valuation easily arrived at, based on the agricultural or amenity land value of each site, but then there's the notional value of what racing on the land might add. And that's difficult to assess since Octagon apparently aren't selling a company with company accounts, past record etc, they're just selling real estate with no company accounts to add attraction and gloss.... Oh my, these circuits really are looking down the gun barrel - but then, so is Octagon in the UK, and so perhaps is Interpublic...

It really is a mess, and the one person giggling all the way to the bank is surely Nicola Foulston, who spotted a bunch of over-optimistic naifs in Octagon/Interpublic and secured her very considerable fortune by selling them the deal in the first place.

As for the future of motor sport here in the UK - it's on the critical list, I am sure...

DCN

You think Ms F even looks at what's going on any more? - I thought she was completely out of the picture these days and didn't give a monkeys' about what happened to the circuits... unless she's still got some financial stake in them...

I've got two race meetings coming up in the next few weeks - Croft for the BTCC which is always a fun event and gets a great turnout because it's the one big meeting of the year in the North East... it's possibly the most enthusiastically-attended national meeting I've ever been to - and then my first trip to Rockingham for F3/GTs. I can predict this one - the place will look deserted, they'll announce the crowd changes to the drivers in the GT race, and everyone will be trying hard to create atmosphere.

Fact is, for most people apart from hardened fans or those lucky enough to live close enough to a circuit, racing is a once-a-year event. For professional or semi-professional racing to survive in the UK it needs a coordinated marketing strategy, mainstream media coverage (4am on Channel 4 doesn't count), and a 'customer comes first' attitude.

I'm going to be sacriligeous here (Oulton, Brands and Cadwell are great circuits and it'd be a tragedy to lose them) but perhaps losing a few circuits and concentrating racing into fewer places might be good for the sport financially - it could concentrate the total spectator reach into fewer, bigger meetings, make them more of an 'event' and guarantee at least one 'big race' per event...

I deliberately left clubbies out of the equation here because I don't know how on Earth they can be made to work under the current economic circumstances. It's a miracle enough people can afford to race in them...

Having attended race meetings man and boy for over 40 years, both as spectator and later professionally, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Doug (DCN) says.

The growth of bureaucracy and regulatory bullshit, the general hostility of professional (sic) racing to the paying public and even in some cases the press, the poor value for money and the inaccessibility of major stars (especially F1 personnel) is enough to deter all but the most fanatical fans. On one recent memorable occasion when I was covering the British GP support races at Silverstone and still wearing my track pass and tabard complete with two cameras, lens etc., I was forcibly prevented from crossing the emptying F1 paddock to gain access to the bridge over the track after the meeting had ended, by an extremely aggressive team individual who seemed to think that I would steal some priceless artifact, even though public spectators were entering via the now open electronic gates that F1 uses at every GP. Additionally modern racing lacks aesthetic appeal in nearly every department. Outside of historics if you want to see real racing (i.e. regular overtaking) at the top level in Europe then you should watch Superbikes or MotoGP.

As ever the combination of lawyers, accountants and administrators has destroyed the raison d'etre of racing, just as they have in nearly every walk of life.

You are all quite right of course, what we could really do with is the rebirth of racing - as it did just after the war when disused airfields we taken over by true motor racing enthusiasts and no frills grass roots got going really for the first time in 1948 .

With the 500 formula and the 750 motor club the impecunious enthusiast - if he was sufficiently determined with a few like minded friends could build and race their own car while holding down a full time job on average wages.

So this happy situation stayed through the 50's 60's 70's and about half of the 80's - since when stupidly motor racing has progressively priced itself out of business . We may now see most of it go altogether there is no land and certainly no planning consent in South East England for any new venues -- too many people wanting too many houses in too small an area.

A good example of this regulatory stupidity is seen here...

Any new car for which a log book application is lodged is required to have an engineer's certificate for its rollover protection. The specs to which these are required to be built are issued by the CAMS, but there's more...

Having done all the calculations etc, the owner/builder or fabricator must then obtain this engineer's certificate and submit it to the CAMS. The CAMS then issue an endorsement for the log book and put their hands out for a fee of $110! For putting a sticker in the logbook!

The owner, of course, has had to fund the wisdom of the engineer on top of this.

Four years or so ago there was an outcry here because the level of fireproof gear required for all racing was elevated to the same standard as F1. Every competitor who hadn't been so lavish in equipping himself in the first place was up for a complete new set of racewear.

We also have the same over zealous regulation here for even the most lowly form of Motor sport

Every few years you have to buy new helmets new race suits new roll cages new seat belts new fire extinguishers - just because someone has decided on yet another new standard. The governing body takes the view that if you are not a multi-millionaire then you should not be doing it anyway and are not welcome. Not that any competitors are made welcome at any circuits anyway . Paddock offices these days are staffed by people without common courtesy, who seem to be trained to treat entrants like vermin .

Ahh... for the days of Hume Weir, PIARC Phillip Island and good old Warwick Farm!

Now there was a place where you were treated nicely... Mary Packard would see to anything you wanted, John Stranger was friendly and always ready to help, the marshals were trained to follow suit...

And Geoff Sykes was always there...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ray Bell

Now there was a place where you were treated nicely... Mary Packard would see to anything you wanted, John Stranger was friendly and always ready to help, the marshals were trained to follow suit...

Wasn't there a song lyric about "The friendly stranger in a black sedan " ?

Quoted today Max Mosley , FIA President, revealed that the troubled promoter Octagon who run and organise the British Grand Prix are charged each year - £6M by circuit owners the British Racing Drivers Club for the priviledge.

I think this is a ludicrously high sum no wonder the admission charges are so high ( £119 each for Sunday only, basic outer standing only + as much again each for a seat and entry to the circuit centre - no money on earth will give you access to the paddock, never mind the pits )

No wonder Octagon and parent Interpublic have declared such enormous losses. I think this is unsustainable greed from the BRDC and whilst I seldom find myself in full agreement with Mr Ecclestone demonstrably the British GP spectator has put up with 3rd world facilities and monsterous overcharging for everything for decades as a result people have voted with their feet. Contrast this with last weekends 120,000 people through the turnstyles at Donington for exciting racing at the Motor Cycle Grand Prix, at sane prices.

Stark contrast to the 1967 F1 GP when a car and 5 people could get in to Silverstone and go anywhere they liked for £1 the lot for the day !

But then the BRDC are expected to spend X million pounds upgrading their facilities. I'm not defending the costs of tickets, but how are the BRDC expected to raise the cash to fund the developments otherwise, especially as they do not get the gate receipts from the GP? They are continually expected to spend millions doing this and that, and from somewhere they have to match that with an income stream. How? I think it's unfair to blame Octagon's losses on the BRDC charging so much. They are a commercial company who bought the rights, and took a commercial risk knowing what the expensess would be, and what the likely income streams would be. That they made a hash of it isn't the fault of the BRDC. It isn't as though Octagon only made a loss dealing with Silverstone......

From an article in the Financial Times, July 15th 2003

:\

Darren,

I think the BRDC should have continued to run the GP themselves and whilst true they have spent money on the infield facilities often doing the same work over and over again and revising the track layout every year making it less attractive.

Until the last 2 years its the mass spectator facilities on the outside of the track that remained virtually unchanged for decades and I think its unacceptable to charge these vast ticket prices to sit on a rickerty grandstand made of scaffold poles and builders planks with flapping sides and negligible weather protection.Catering consisting of burger vans where food poisoning is almost certain and CJD likely, and toilets little more than a hole in a broken piece of concrete surrounded by corrugated iron. I like so many others was staggered this persisted so long, in comparison to other sporting venues - true there was a wonderful air conditioned press centre and a magnificent club house that could be viewed from a distance, acres or tarmac for the teams motorhomes.

They have had very big revenues for a long time and in my view neglected the most important people the ordinary paying customer. It was only due to unplanned circumstances that Mr Ecclestone was pitched in to the real and ugly world of the paying public by mistake that he found out at first hand what had been going on out there , and rightly in my view started to stir them up in to making decent facilities 25 years late.

Octagon should have gone in to it with their eyes open I doubt if at that point anyone could have satisfied all sides - clearly they would have done better to pass on the whole deal.

I would hope now BRDC will settle with interpublic , take it back in house cut their own costs and refocus on the logical priorities.

Back to grass roots (or a little nearer anyway), I was out at Croft this weekend spectating and lending a hand on a trade stand, and I have to say the future's looking bright there if they can keep delivering meetings like that.

Now that the BTCC round is really the only meeting of any substance north of the M62, there's a real party atmosphere there - the crowd was up several thousand on last year, the catering facilities were pretty good (for a circuit anyway!), the security and admin staff couldn't've been friendlier or more helpful, the racing ran smoothly and entertainingly, spectator access was superb as usual, and everyone - spectators, drivers, team personnel, and 'behind the scenes' people - seemed determined to have a good time and make the meeting a real success.

Whatever they're doing at Croft to create the atmosphere - bottle it and distribute it everywhere else in Britain. It was one of the most enjoyable meetings I've ever attended - it's a circuit that really is back on the map now. Yes, it's a bit basic, but that's part of its charm - it's comfortable but not luxurious there, scenic without being chocolate-box, and just a damn good place to watch racing.

And it's clear that the public want to see racing - there were a lot of locals attending their first-ever meeting, a lot of people bringing kids along, and as far as I could see there were more smiling faces around than at a lot of meetings at more 'prestigious' circuits. Exactly the kind of meeting we need to get more people going racing.

The recipe seems to be simple - put on a good show, let the spectators get close up to it, treat them well, don't act like prima donnas, and concentrate on making it all run smoothly.... and they'll keep coming back!

This is very good to hear - its one of the few UK venues I have never been to . Sounds as if the family ownership aspect may be a big factor.

This highlights one of the big problems in this country , at the majority of venues - your first contact at the circuit is with the gate staff - even armed with all the correct passes these people seem to think their job is to be hostile and as unhelpful and unpleasant as possible , - as a visitor this gets you off to a very bad start .

I wish the other circuit principals then would visit Croft and instill a better attitude in their own staff - or replace them quickly.

Substitute 'Castle Combe' for 'Croft' and 'F3/GT' for 'BTCC' and this description could equally apply to a circuit somewhat south of the M62
There appears to be a big difference between the tracks where the owner lives "above the shop" and those owned by a faceless corporation.
In fact this has been the 'Combe recipe for many years - and it works

Further to my eulogy to Croft, here's the Dunlop tyre technicians relaxing after the second BTCC race:



(photo © 2003 Emma Crawley).

...how wrong could I be? The success of the SEAT "Racing Rivals" series (pretty good for one-make, as the cars are all prepped identically a la FPA) and its accompanying TV series -- and SEAT subsidising tickets down to a quid! - meant that 44000 people went to Rockingham on Sunday.

Now it's not really "purist" stuff - for a start, there's somewhere to sit down, and the lavs were clean - but the biggest criticisms I've seen of the meeting from an organisational point of view were (a) the lack of cash machines at the circuit and (B) the kids' hair braiding stall shut early.

I suspect that a lot of those 44000 spectators were first-timers, and judging by the atmosphere I'd guess a lot of them would consider coming back to a sensibly-priced meeting!

(see my post on the "decreasing radius" thread for a few more comments on this meeting- but, in short, I was very impressed!)