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Twin Window
Originally posted by Mike Lawrence

Very occasionally a particular mechanic has followed a driver to another team, but I cannot think of anyone in Europe who has played a similar role.

Any suggestions?
Ermanno Cuoghi followed Lauda from Ferrari to Brabham. And, in non-mechanics roles, what about Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn et al following M$ to Ferrari from Benetton?

Oh, and from the world of MotoGP, how about Jeremy Burgess (and a decent percentage of his spannermen) following Valentino Rossi from Honda to Yamaha this last season...?
doc540
Don, (or for that matter, anyone else interested) if you haven't already contacted him, I'd be glad to put you in touch with Howard Gilbert who was a mechanic with the Belond crew. I'm sure he can fill in a few blanks. They may not be factual but you can count on them being colorful!

Though in ill health, he's living in Payson, Arizona after retiring from Foyt's shop in Houston. I can get his new number from Jack Starnes since it changed recently.


Shoot me a pm.

Well, hell, I just called him and listened for a while.

Here's Howard's story on the Belond Special:

George Salih was a foreman at Meyer/Drake when he and Howard built the first laydown Offy car to run in 1957. They lived a block apart and built the car at night in Salih's garage in Whittier, CA.

They hocked and mortgaged everything they had, even their homes to build the car. The engine was built from Meyer/Drake parts that were "seconds" with only cosmetic flaws. According to Howard it was the only engine to leave Meyer/Drake on credit. (After winning the Indy 500 they paid what they owed on the engine.)

Epperly formed the aluminum body. He didn't "construct" the car. And in payment for his metal shaping, he was given some kind of "interest" in the car in both '57 and '58.

Belond had a muffler business and gave them only $2500 to sponsor the car which they used for expenses to tow the car from Whittier, CA. to Indy. Firestone didn't pitch in a dime. They got the gearbox and wheels from Ted Halibrand. The whole deal was on a shoestring budget.

Another interesting sidelight concerns the spark plugs. Seems that Champion didn't offer any help with the car, so they used an English sparkplug maker, Lodge. The Belond was the only car in the 1957 field NOT to use Champions.
Champion contracted with Collier's magazine to print an ad prior to the race naming them as winners. Howard said it cost a small fortune when Champion had to retract the ad.

Howard and Salih overcame the engineering hurdle of how to properly oil the engine and did so well with it they ran the same engine for three years, even bringing it to Monza. However, the next year at Indy other teams were trying the laydown concept with less success and oiling the track so frequently USAC approached Salih and Howard to help with the other teams. Howard didn't say whether or not they did. Somehow I doubt it. smile.gif

They qualified somewhere around 12th (13th, in fact) and were surprised to actually win the race. Once they'd distributed the $200,000 in prize money, all the bills were paid but hardly anything was left.

They returned in 1958 with the same car and won the Indy 500 two years in a row.

I asked him where the "laydown" idea came from and who actually engineered it. He said he and Salih figured out how to build the car in that format and lowering the center of gravity was their primary goal, not aerodynamics.

He said a couple of inline truck engines were produced commercially in the laydown configuration with one of them being built in Italy(?).

Howard said his health was such that he enjoyed every sunrise. After visiting a while he seemed tired and wished me a Merry Christmas and said goodbye.

I hope this information helps clear up or at least contributes to the history of that era.
doc540
Some nice pictures of the Belond roadster
KarlOakie Research
It certainly fills in some of the gaps in the story that I wondered about, especially since there were several versions about this or that aspect of the tale, the truth of which seems to be almost too crazy to be true. The problem, in my mind, has been simply sorting out of some of the actual relationships and what Howard Gilbert relates seems to make sense to me.

I have often thought about saying something about how the American racing car industry was devastated and all but destroyed by the British constructors, but given the tenor of things here that is probably something best left for another day and place. My feelings on this have shifted over the years as I dug more and more into the past of American racing. However, what was done is impossible to undo and you simply have to look at and work with the cards that history has dealt us.
Arthur Anderson
Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
It certainly fills in some of the gaps in the story that I wondered about, especially since there were several versions about this or that aspect of the tale, the truth of which seems to be almost too crazy to be true. The problem, in my mind, has been simply sorting out of some of the actual relationships and what Howard Gilbert relates seems to make sense to me.

I have often thought about saying something about how the American racing car industry was devastated and all but destroyed by the British constructors, but given the tenor of things here that is probably something best left for another day and place. My feelings on this have shifted over the years as I dug more and more into the past of American racing. However, what was done is impossible to undo and you simply have to look at and work with the cards that history has dealt us.


Truthfully,

British constructors really did not devastate the "American racing car industry", nor did they destroy it either! Frankly, there really was no American racing car industry, at least nothing as exists today (For example, an Indiana University Economics Professor just released data from his survey of auto racing's impact on the city of Indianapolis (which is a huge place, actually, about 25 miles on a side, with 2 or 3 small suburban entities as merely enclaves). He reports that automobile racing companies (of course, headed by Indianapolis Motor Speedway Corporation) generates 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in annual revenues, not counting the addtional billion dollars or so that race fans bring into the city when attending the 500, the US Grand Prix and the Brickyard 400. Of course, this also includes those companies and teams located in Indianapolis who are associated with Indianapolis Raceway Park (NHRA drag racing), and the various sprint car and midget oriented companies within the city.

Prior to the "British Invasion" of 1963-66, there really were no "works teams" in either USAC or their forerunner, AAA, not since Duesenberg in the 20's. Virtually all open-wheel racing was carried on by privateer car owners, privateers in every sense of the word. They bought a chassis (occasionally commissioned a chassis to be built), went to Offenhauser for the most part (certainly from the middle 1930's through 1963) for an engine, and innumerable sources for suspensions, axles, steering gear, brakes, and wheels. Tires came from but one source from the 20's through the coming of Dunlop in 1964, and Goodyear in 1965, that single source having been Firestone. Race cars tended to be maintained for several seasons, tuned by a single chief mechanic (who might have had an extra stooge or two around his shop when prepping for a race, and of course, and extra pit crewman or two come any race. The same chief mechanic would also repair the same old, same old car after a crash, often pulling miraculous resurrections of badly bent cars.

Once it became obvious that rear engine cars were the way to go fast, in fact the American open wheel racing car industry really grew up, developed far beyond what had been, for decades, an mere 'cottage industry', with the influx of major sponsorship money. One can credit the "tire wars" between Firestone and Goodyear 1965-74 for that growth, primarily. Both tire companies were suddenly buying chassis almost wholesale, even multiple chassis for top teams. Goodyear underwrote the pioneering turbocharging efforts by veteran mechanic and engine-builder, Herb Porter, which in turn put Offenhauser securely on the map for another 10 years after the rail-bird pundits had written off the old 4-cylinder. Firestone, on the other hand, backed buyers of Ford 4-cams, and helped to underwrite the development costs involved in turbocharging the pioneering Ford engines. From 1967 out until the development of really aerodynamically sophisticated chassis in the late 1970's, USAC's Championship Divisions entries were simply dominated by the likes of All American Racers Eagles, 66-67 Halibrand Shrikes, Gerhardt's, and numerous other chassis built in the US. Only the occasional highly competitive Lola and of course Team McLaren managed to break seriously into the scene in those years.

Some behind the scenes suppliers who made considerable money in Indy cars, and their construction were the likes of Fairfield Manufacturing in Lafayette, who custom-produced then, and may still produce, gear sets for racing transmissions on a moment's notice, down to little shops like that of Lafayette's Dave LeFevre, whose radiator shop (LeFevre's is the largest, best known radiator shop in Lafayette) built dozens of radiators and oil coolers for Indy cars through the 70's, well into the 1980's. But at the top of the game, the "little guys" did fade into the background, to be seen nowadays only at Oldtimers' events, or they filtered downstream into the ranks of midgets and sprint cars--the latter becoming overwhelmingly popular by the late 1970's across the rural midwest and southwest.

The big decline in US-built racing chassis came in the latter half of the 1970's, when the same engineering and construction skills that were more and more required to build a successful Indy car chassis became those of the aerospace industry. Simply put, Britain had far more of those skilled and highly trained individuals than that country had jobs for, while in the US, aerospace industries were in an absolute boom period--which drove the wage rates for that kind of work out of reach for even the likes of a Pat Patrick (a Michigan oil driller) and of course, Roger Penske.

So, it does seem to me that the British Invasion of the middle 1960's, rather than diminishing the "American Racing Industry", actually forced a considerable evolution in it, older, less sophisticated chassis builders, such as the legendary Frank Kurtis and his fellow LA constructors simply faded into retirement (most of them were of retirement age or past by then, at any rate), and spawned a tremendous cash flow into Indy cars, the likes of which were scarcely dreamed about until Brabham's Cooper and Team Lotus showed up at Indy.

Art Anderson
Huw Jadvantich
I think a conclusive book on concentrating on who built 'Indy cars' and out of what would be fascinating. The evolution from Junk yard to roadster to mid engines then wings then carbon fibre would make an excellent read, with hopefully the good chassis builders getting credit.

A website is great, but there is nothing like a good book. Presumably the contents of the website could be made into a book, with the benefit that it has already been edited by hundreds of experts before it even starts production!
cabianca
Here's some commentary on the situation

http://www.vintagemotorsport.com/show_news.asp?id=260
Dr. Austin
Originally posted by David Beard
How long would the roadster configration have continued without the European influence ?


Probably forever if some Indycar fans would have their way. The United states Auto club has just come up with a front engine roadster designed to run on 1.5 mile and bigger tracks, and alot of people want to see this replace the current IRL cars. Personally I think it's rather silly, but that's what alot of them are talking about on the IRL forums.
MPea3
Originally posted by Arthur Anderson

I've never heard, nor read any mention of Wetteroth hammering out any body panels, for example, Myron Stevens did the bodywork for Shaw's car.

Art


Which is why I asked the question before. In White's Offenhauser book, he mentions Wetteroth as having built the body for Kelly Petillo's car, but it seems from his story that Petillo built much of the car himself.

Also, was the Fred Frame winning entry from 1932 built by Wetteroth?
billthekat
Originally posted by MPea3
Also, was the Fred Frame winning entry from 1932 built by Wetteroth?


I double-checked and checked again, and there seems to be a clear consensus that the Frame car, entered by Harry Hartz and using fwd and a Miller engine, was built by Wetteroth.
billthekat
Originally posted by cabianca
Here's some commentary on the situation

http://www.vintagemotorsport.com/show_news.asp?id=260


Excellent article for laying out the heartaches and heartburn of American racing and its history. With the loss of Phil Harms this won't get any easier for awhile. Like MTL, I have found my interests and focus shifting more and more towards working with the nightmares and occasional rays of sunshine of American racing, especially the oval series, and away from the road racing and European racing I have worked on for many a year. MTL's thesis of there being a cultural factor involved certainly makes sense to me, being one of the lucky working class lintheads/ Army brats to make the leap from one educational track to the other.
275 GTB-4
Stutz Indianapolis Special Race Car 1915


http://www.southward.org.nz/


Stutz Indianapolis Special Race Car 1915
Stutz Motor Car Co, USA
This exhibit is one of three Stutz racing cars that won the American Road and Track Championship in 1915. Car Number 5 was third in the 1915 Indianapolis 500, averaging a speed of 87.6 mph (140 km/h). It was first in the 1915 Astor Cup Race over 560 km at an average speed of 102.6 mph (164 km/h) and as a Durant Special, was second in the 1919 Indianapolis 500, averaging 87 mph (139 km/h). The car was bought to New Zealand in 1923 and raced by Bob Wilson, who drove it to victory in the New Zealand Cup in 1926, 1927 and 1928. Later, the engine was used in a speed-boat, while the chassis (with another engine) was used as a farm tractor. Engine and chassis are now reunited, and the car restored to its former glory by the museum.
Wisconsin 4 cylinders, ohc, 4 valve motor, 96.8 mm bore, 65 mm stroke, 4851 cc. Top gear ratio, 3 to 1, (was 2.35 to 1). Compression ratio 5½ to 1.
fines
Originally posted by Mattthecat
Got this reply from the good folks (and Gordon in particular) at the RaceHistory yahoo group:




You need to get copies of Jack Fox' Indy book, the Clymer yearbooks
and my Kurtis Indy Car book, which has the records of all Frank Kurtis'
Indy cars.

The Hall-Mar car of 1959-1961 was a Kurtis KK-500B, serial # 359,
built in 1953 for Ed Walsh. Cliff Griffith crashed it in practice and
it burned and could not be repaired in time for the race that year. The
remains were sent back to Kurtis and it probably got an entirely new
frame. Lee Elkins bought the rebuilt car and entered it in 1955. Len
Duncan, an eastern midget ace, again crashed before the race.

W.T. Martin bought the car and in 1956 Dempsey Wilson and Billy
Garrett dnq. (# 22) In 1957 as # 42 Wilson was also dnq and likewise in
1958 as # 71. In 1959 Arnold finished 15th in it as # 71, the only year
it made the race. As # 79 in 1960 Russ Congdon dnq. Bert Brooks was
a dnq in 1961 also as # 79. Karl Hall was either co-owner with Martin,
or full owner 1959-60-61.

In 1962 Bill Deakin bought the car and as # 92 with eastern midget
driver Johnny Coy driving it also was a dnq.

Frank Curtis of Long Island, N.Y. , worked it over
for Martin. They were all easterners as were their drivers. Curtis
owned Kurtis midgets, built a couple of midgets himself and probably was
a mechanic on the car. You might call Dave Michaels at (973) 267-0805
in N.J. who might know more about it.

IMS of course has all the records you could want, but it is
difficult to get access to them. Photos are easy to get from IMS but
data is a little tougher.

There is a photo in Fox of Wilson in another car that dnq in 1958,
not the Kurtis.

- Gordon White






Now that leaves only the Hill-Offy question...

I believe Gordon has it right except for the Deakin #92 which was the Duke Donaldson Kurtis 500G - there's a picture in the Littleton/Enoch book which proves that conclusively.

Hill-Offy: I call the car simply Shaheen/Offenhauser, because it is a Special and not a shopfloor racecar. Besides, Bob Schilling in the Wallen book "Fabulous Fifties" writes about it having been built by a number of builders, and does not mention a Mr. Hill. The only Mr. Hill that I'm aware of in this context would've been Shelby Hill, the Pikes Peak racer from Colorado - not likely!

Hiram Hillegass was a Sprint Car and Midget builder from Pennsylvania, I don't think he ever built a complete Champ Car. I know Phil Harms lists the Glessner car for some years as a Hillegass chassis, but the same car is earlier listed as a Scopa. I call it a Glessner, for the same reason I call the other car a Shaheen. smile.gif
fines
Originally posted by billthekat
I double-checked and checked again, and there seems to be a clear consensus that the Frame car, entered by Harry Hartz and using fwd and a Miller engine, was built by Wetteroth.

Curly may have built the body, and may have modified the frame (it was the former Miller-Detroit from 1927), but why on earth the car should have been something different than a "Miller-Hartz" I really can't see! Like its 1930 sister car, it was conceived by Harry Hartz in conjunction with the Harry Miller Co., both chassis and engine, and there are reasons to believe that it was actually built (or at least assembled) at the Miller plant in Los Angeles, 6233 South Gramercy Place.

I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of Mssrs. Wetteroth, Stevens etc., they were excellent builders and craftsmen, but they were not (racing) car manufacturers!
Peter Leversedge
Yes
rateus
Originally posted by fines

I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of Mssrs. Wetteroth, Stevens etc., they were excellent builders and craftsmen, but they were not (racing) car manufacturers!


So does this mean all the cars usually listed as 'Wetteroth' and 'Stevens' by sources like Harms (I count 2 Wetteroths and 4 Stevens at Indy in 1950 alone) were actually rejigged or rebodied from previously-raced chassis?
fines
No, not all. Watch this space! smile.gif
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (1)

Myron Stevens (1)

Stevens was a Californian, born in...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/stevens/
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (2)

Myron Stevens (2)

In the 1930 Indy 500, Louis Schneider ran in the...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/stevens/
Peter Leversedge
I am waiting for "Myron Stevens 3"
fines
... CO-MING! smile.gif

Indy car constructors of the Thirties (3)

Myron Stevens (3)

With the advent of the Grand Prix formula at Indy in...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/stevens/
stevewf1
Originally posted by Dr. Austin


Probably forever if some Indycar fans would have their way. The United states Auto club has just come up with a front engine roadster designed to run on 1.5 mile and bigger tracks, and alot of people want to see this replace the current IRL cars. Personally I think it's rather silly, but that's what alot of them are talking about on the IRL forums.


I was a teen-ager living about a mile from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway back in the '60s. I remember the rear-engined "funny car" revolution back then and there was a lot of resistance. I remember people saying things like "rear-engine cars are for men who like to be pushed around". There was even one fellow on TV who tried show why an arrow wouldn't fly backwards (never did figure out that connection).

So yes, there was a lot of complaining from the "traditionalists" at the time...
ReWind
Re Myron Stevens:
Has anyone access to a tape of 39 minutes length called "The Racing Cars and Craft of Myron Stevens" which was produced by the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers?
(You'll find it in its records at Georgia State University Library under Series V: IAM Departments and Centers; Subseries D: Communications Department, 1956 - 1996; Sub-Series 2: Audio/Visual Materials, 1956 - 1996; Undated Videocassette Recordings # 258.)
fines
Myron Stevens and the Machinists Union? Don't know a thing about that, but he was still around in the eighties, he died in 1988.

Indy car constructors of the Thirties (4)

Sampson (1)

According to the legend, Alden L. (II) Sampson got involved with...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/sampson/
MPea3
Originally posted by ReWind
Re Myron Stevens:
Has anyone access to a tape of 39 minutes length called "The Racing Cars and Craft of Myron Stevens" which was produced by the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers?
(You'll find it in its records at Georgia State University Library under Series V: IAM Departments and Centers; Subseries D: Communications Department, 1956 - 1996; Sub-Series 2: Audio/Visual Materials, 1956 - 1996; Undated Videocassette Recordings # 258.)


My father was the librarian at GSU from 1958 until his death in 1974 and the north building was named after him. The library has recently undergone a facelift and the new librarian has invited me to come visit for a tour. Let me see what favors I can call.
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (5)

Sampson (2)

After an absence of almost three years, during which Sampson and Riley...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/sampson/
ReWind
Originally posted by fines
the content of this or any of the following tables may change without prior notice!
Since you obviously haven't been a regular follower of TNF for some time, may I point you to the current rule which means that you are able to edit your posts for only ONE week? As soon as seven days have gone by everything you have written in your post will stay as it is.
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (6)

Smith

Floyd A. Smith entered the racing lime light in the mid-to-late-twenties with the...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/smith-f/
fines
Originally posted by ReWind
Since you obviously haven't been a regular follower of TNF for some time, may I point you to the current rule which means that you are able to edit your posts for only ONE week? As soon as seven days have gone by everything you have written in your post will stay as it is.

Thanks, Reinhard, I was aware of something like that, although not the exact extent. I think I wasn't really planning on updating these posts, merely trying to warn readers from taking this "as gospel", there's still a lot of research that needs to be done. Perhaps I should've written "the validity is subject to change without prior notice"? biggrin.gif
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (7)

Hartz (1)

Harry H. Hartz began racing Cyclecars (= Midgets before the invention of the Midget) on the West Coast around 1914, and soon...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/hartz/
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (8)

Hartz (2)

With the dough won at Indy in 1930, Hartz did what he always did, he...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/hartz/
fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (9)

Hartz (3)

With the relaxation of the Championship rules in...

Read on at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/indy/hartz/
rateus
Originally posted by rateus


So does this mean all the cars usually listed as 'Wetteroth' and 'Stevens' by sources like Harms (I count 2 Wetteroths and 4 Stevens at Indy in 1950 alone) were actually rejigged or rebodied from previously-raced chassis?


I guess that's me told then! lol.gif

Fantastic stuff Michael, thanks for posting up.gif
HDonaldCapps
Originally posted by MPea3
My father was the librarian at GSU from 1958 until his death in 1974 and the north building was named after him. The library has recently undergone a facelift and the new librarian has invited me to come visit for a tour. Let me see what favors I can call.


I had no clue that the library was named after your father! I used the GSU library more than a few times while I was at FORSCOM.
ReWind
Originally posted by fines
Harry H. Hartz
I'd say Harry C. Hartz.
ovfi
fines
Great work you did!
I would like to make some small contributions, on the line of "the content of this or any of the following tables may change without prior notice!"

1-For the Smith IC-30 you listed:
-1934 #18 Boyle Products,?,?,M.J.Boyle,George Barringer(ret Springfield,4th Syracuse,ret Mines Field)
I think this is one of the 230-8cyl Miller cars w/suspension covers added, but maybe with the 183-217 engine of the Smith Empire State car (maybe the 230 was installed on Bill Cummings winner car). This is the same car you discovered to be driven by Louis Schneider at Siracuse july 2 of 1932.

I've studied many pictures of these cars and, for the Smith-Empire State car I think the following table should apply:
-Year #Car name,colour,Engine make&type,driver(results at Indy)
-1930 #3 EmpireState,black/white/red,Miller-Schofield183,Wilbur Shaw(dnf)
-1931 #31 EmpireState,black/red/silver,Miller183-217,Paul Bost(dnf)
-1935 #4 BoyleProducts,white/red/blue,Miller255,Al Miller(dnf) *
-1936 #12 BoyleProducts,white/red/blue,Miller255,Al Miller(dnf)*
*Boyle cars had the engine changed for a 4-cyl and the steering gear was moved forward on the chassis, but seems to be the same chassis and body of the Empire State car.

2-For the Stevens-Miller-Schofield I've made the same photographic comparison, and found that sequence:
-Year #Car name,colour,Engine make&type,driver(results at Indy)
-1930 #16 Miller-Schofield,white/plum/black,Miller220-4cyl,Shorty Cantlon(2nd)
-1932 #6 Lion Head,white/red,Miller220-4cyl,HowdyWilcox(2nd)
-1933 #25 Sullivan & O'Brien,?,Miller255-4cyl,Shorty Cantlon(dnf)
-1934 #15 Sullivan & O'Brien,?,Miller255-4cyl,Shorty Cantlon(dnf)
-1935 #9 Sullivan & O'Brien,?,Miller255-4cyl,Shorty Cantlon(6th)
-1936 #47 Sullivan & O'Brien,white/black/blue/red,Miller255-4cyl,Johnny Seymour(dnf)
-1937 #47 Sullivan & O'Brien,white/black/blue/red,Miller255-4cyl,Harry McQueen(dnf)

3-For the Stevens-Bowes Seal Fast 1930 car the photographic comparison shows that sequence:
-Year #Car name,colour,Engine make&type,driver(results at Indy)
-1930 #23 Bowes Seal Fast,white/red/blue,Miller183-8cyl,Louis Schneider(3rd)
-1931 #24 Bowes Seal Fast,white/red/black,Miller183-8cyl,Fred Winnai(dnf)
-1932 #10 Bowes Seal Fast,white/red/blue,Miller183-8cyl,Bill Cummings(dnf)
-1933 #26 Bowes Seal Fast,white/red/blue,Miller183-8cyl,Deacon Litz(16th) *
-1934 #12 Stokely's Foods,white/red/blue,Miller183-8cyl,Deacon Litz(4th) *
*this is the same Stevens car with minor bodywork changes in the rear.
fines
Hi Oscar, thanks for your interest!

1) Barringer drove the Miller 230 at Indy, but it is my understanding that Cummings drove it on the dirt tracks. It is as of yet just a guess for most of these races, as only a photograph would tell definitely, and I have such a photograph only for the 1935 Ascot non-championship race, but logic dictates this: Cummings was clearly the #1 driver in the team, and he had driven the 8-cylinder before successfully. He may have been instrumental in chosing the Smith as the second dirt car, as he himself drove the car quite successfully in 1931, but I don't think he would have prefered it to the 230. Unless you show me a picture of Cummings in the Smith in Boyle colours, I'll stay with my version.

Btw, good for you to spot the difference in the steering setup! It is one of those points that can drive you nuts, but I also think it has to be the same car - it's just that I would like to read a confirmation, like a note in a magazine or some such! :\

2) Forget the "Stevens", this was just a plain Miller. It was nicknamed "Minnie", because it was quite famous for being the car with most Indy starts to its credit - yes, there's quite a bit more than you have! biggrin.gif Ready?
1930 #16
1931 #15
1932 #6
1933 #25
1934 #15
1935 #9
1936 #47
1937 #47
1938 #47
1939 #47
1940 #24
1941 #23
1947 #53
1948 #23

After that the car was rebuilt into a single-seater, and ran for a few more years:
1949 #72
1950 #41
1951 #71
1952 #56
1953 #65
1954 #62
1955 #28

3) The 1930 Schneider also had a few more years of service:
1930 #23
1931 #24 => #2
1932 #10 => #43 => #16
1933 #26
1934 #12
1935 #16
1936 #15
1937 #35

I have it also in a sprint car race at Langhorne, Apr 28 in 1934, driven by Billy Winn (see picture in the Gerber book, p188); doubtless there were many others.
ovfi
Michael, thanks for the lessons on the "Minnie" and the Schneider cars. wave.gif

I haven't been precise about the Miller 230 question... let me try another way.

Boyle had the first Miller 230-8cyl car since 1931, raced it at Indy with Lou Moore in 1931 and 1932, with Bill Cummings in 1933, with George Barringer in 1933, and Russell Snowberger in 1934. In 1931/32 Boyle had the Smith-Miller 217-8cyl, but didn't raced it at Indy until 1935, but without its original engine. I've learned about the Smith car with you, never suspected Boyle had it before 1935, but it was a clue for the changes Boyle made on its Miller-Duesenberg on the following years.

At Indy 1932 Boyle raced the Miller 230 driven by Lou Moore and a Miller-Duesenberg driven by Wes Crawford. At Indy 1933 he raced the Miller 230 driven by Bill Cummings and the Miller-'ex Duesenberg' with engine changed to the 217-8cyl which was removed from the Smith-Miller (this is my guess) and driven by Babe Stapp . My another guess is that in 1934 they changed engines between these two cars, the Miller 230 of George Barringer taking the 217-8cyl original of the Smith-Miller, and the Miller-ex Duesenberg-ex 217-8cyl taking the Miller 230-8cyl for Bill Cummings to win the race. For 1935 Boyle maintained the same cars with the same engines, and introduced a third car, the Smith-Miller with a Miller 255-4 cyl engine, this is a fact not a guess.drunk.gif

My point is about the engine changes in 1933/34/35 for the Indy race, I think that's strong the possibility that it really occurred, and I'm posing it to your judgment. smile.gif

P.S.: Merry Xmas to all... late but not forgotten.
fines
Well Oscar, this is really fine detective thinking kiss.gif, but you're actually making things much too complicated. Like I said earlier, Indy is well documented and there are very few questions. I have a lot of source material and photographs of most of the cars, so barring the as of yet unforeseeable blah, blah, blah, I think you could do much worse than trust me for what I am going to tell you here:

Mike Boyle returned to action in 1931 with two cars, a Miller 230 "two-man car" (one of two built) and a Miller 230 "one-man car" (the only one built). The single-seater was used for some dirt track races over the next five years, mainly driven by Lou Moore and Bill Cummings. It may also have raced at the first (George) Vanderbilt Cup, and after it was sold to Russ Snowberger in 1937 it was a regular Championship Car until well after WW2. But it won't concern us any further in these early-to-mid thirties discussions.

The Miller 230 Indy Car (two-seater) was Boyle's main weapon for the National Championship races during the "junk era" until 1937, when it was sold to Firestone as a tyre test car. To my knowledge, it always retained its big 8-cylinder engine, and that's certainly true for Indianapolis, the only thing changing was the engine capacity as Cotton Henning (Boyle's chief mechanic for the period) had a new block made for it (I believe he also changed the porting and maybe some other details).

In 1932, Boyle added a second Indy Car to his stable, mostly described as a Miller chassis, which is only half true: like both Miller-Hartz cars, and the Evans/Miller (aka Stevens/Miller) described earlier in the Myron Stevens (1) post, it was a Miller FD chassis widened for two-man use - I call it the Boyle IC-32 (1932 Boyle Indy Car). Initially, this car was powered by a 2240 cc Duesenberg engine which was, apparently, a bored out 122 block with a 91 crankshaft - the Dueseys had some wild spec changes back then!

This engine soon made way - and now hark! This is important! - for a new, very special 3613 cc (220 ci) engine which was built by Frank Brisko! Most sources call this engine a Miller, which again is half true and half not, because Brisko used mainly Miller parts for it, but the important thing is to not confuse it with a "proper" Miller 220, which has almost the same capacity (3611 cc) and also 4 cylinders! But internal dimensions were different, the Brisko had only two valves per cylinder unlike the Miller which had four, the Brisko used some Miller "Marine" components, a special block and a special crankcase which was unlike any other Miller engine! This engine stayed in the Boyle until it was replaced by an Offenhauser 255 unit in 1936. Incidentally, this car was rebuilt again in 1938, this time as a single-seater, and fitted with the enlarged Miller 230 engine from the 1931 car! It ran many times at Indy, until well into the fifties.

Now, back to your assumption: It is possible that Boyle purchased the Smith already in 1932, but I don't have any evidence for that. It is very unlikely, however, that the purchase included the Miller 183-217 engine. Remmeber, that engine was designed in 1921, and it wasn't the strongest design even back then. There is one famous photograph showing the aftermath of an accident caused by engine failure, with Frank Elliott and Herschel McKee crawling from their wrecked Leach Special in 1921 atop the banking of a board track in California (don't recall which atm), with the engine lying at the bottom of the banking, and race leaders Jimmy Murphy and Tommy Milton speeding between them! That engine was a Miller 183. A decade on, pretty much the same happened to the Empire State 183s: one was wrecked in 1931, the other the following year. In Mark Dees's book there's a picture of one of the wrecked engines, and the broken crankshaft has ripped a hole big enough to put a children's head through! Presumably, one half of the engine was salvaged for use in a Midget, and the other half went to the junkyard. frown.gif
ovfi
Michael, thanks again for another lesson, I had the wrong idea that Cummings won the 1934 Indy with an 8 cylinder Miller engine... so it was a 4 cylinder Brisko made out of Miller marine parts.
fines
Originally posted by fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (9)

Hartz (3)

(...)

One footnote remains to be added: In 1938, the old Miller-Hartz 152 engine was installed in an even older Miller single-seater chassis, which turned out to be a 1926 vintage Miller-Locomobile! Duke Nalon made his rookie Indy start in this car after qualifying 33rd, just a few seconds faster (over ten laps) than one of Red Shafer's Buick semi-stock racers, and more than 1'15" adrift of the pace setting Thorne-Sparks. The Duke survived the race to finish 11th, and last again. The car was entered the following year with a supercharger added, but apparently failed to appear.

Miller-Locomobile J8
- 1938 #43 Kohlert's Miller, red/gold, Miller-Hartz 152, H. Kohlert, Duke Nalon (11th Indy)
- 1939 #43 Kohlert's Miller, ?, Miller-Hartz 152 sc, H. Kohlert, dnp Indy

!!!Correction time, as already hinted in another thread: In this case I fell for the combination of a rumour and a point-in-time coincidence, but managed to overlook one small detail: the exhaust is on the wrong side!!! blush.gif The engine was in fact probably a bored-out Miller 122. So, please delete this paragraph from your memory banks as well as your records! kiss.gif
fines
And now for a bit of lightheartedness, something I found per chance while sifting through the Indy 500 photo section this afternoon on the hunt for interesting pictures - in the 1948 chapter:

http://www.indy500.com/photo/large.php?pho...es_id=Array&o=h

Yes, that's Rex Mays and Mel Hansen (and a few others I cannot ID, maybe Russ Snowberger and Deacon Litz???) fooling around with the "Tom's Diner Special" of Terre Haute, Indiana, complete with headlights and road registration. "Sandwiches made by Tom are the best" it reads on the frame of a car that looked all too familiar to me... Until it clicked!

Yes, indeed, it's Wilbur Shaw's "Empire State Special", the 1930 Smith! What a blast it must've been to drive an Indy Car on the streets of Terre Haute; imagine going 'round nowadays in a Chaparral 2K! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Originally posted by fines
Indy car constructors of the Thirties (6)

Smith

(...)

Smith IC-30, chassis '1'
- 1930 #3 Empire State, black/white/red, Miller-Schofield 183, F. A. Smith, Wilbur Shaw/Louis Schneider (7th Langhorne), Wilbur Shaw (ret Indy, 1st Detroit, 7th Altoona, 7th Akron, 1st Bridgeville, dnq Altoona, dns Syracuse)
- 1931 #31 => #3 Empire State, black/red/silver, Miller 183-217, F. A. Smith, Paul Bost (ret Indy), Bill Cummings (3rd Detroit, 2nd Altoona), Shorty Cantlon/Bill Cummings (3rd Syracuse)
- 1934 #18 Boyle Products, ?, ?, M. J. Boyle, George Barringer (ret Springfield, 4th Syracuse, ret Mines Field)
- 1935 #4 Boyle Products, white/red/blue, Miller 255, M. J. Boyle, Al Miller (ret Indy, 3rd, 3rd, ret)
- 1936 #12 Boyle Products, white/red/blue, Miller 255, M. J. Boyle, Al Miller (ret Indy)
- 1948 #? Tom's Diner, dark/light, ???, Tom ?, dnp Indy
rateus
This seems as good a place as any to ask a few questions raised by a couple of web pages referring to the 'Wayne'-engined cars that ran (if not raced) at Indy in the early 50s.

www.inliners.org/12_Port_Story/pt_three.html

The #95 'Wayne Manufacturing Spl.' entered by Bill Johnson and driven by Jorge Daponte in 1953 is referred to as the same car entered by Johnson in 1951, also with a (different) Wayne-headed engine. Looking at the Harms data for 1951, I find the most likely match to be the #67 'Johnson/Herbert' Silnes-Chevy driven by Gordon Reid, rather than the #62 'Motor Trends Spl.' of Bill Cantrell, an unknown chassis with Wayne engine.

If true, this would presumably mean that the Daponte car (which is helpfully depicted at the foot of the article), commonly listed as a Johnson chassis, was in fact an old Silnes dirt car.

So does anyone know which car became the #95, and if not the #62 what the provenance of that car was? Might it even have been renumbered to #67 at some point during practice (this was Indy, after all...wink.gif )

Note that although both Johnson's entries had 'Wayne' engines, these refer to Wayne-developed heads on 2 completely different blocks. The 1951 entry had a Chevy block (Wayne's bread and butter), whereas the 1953 entry had a new GMC-derived powerplant.

But apparently not the first 'Wayne-G.M.C' to try to make the field at Indy!

www.inliners.org/12_Port_Story/pt_two.html

According to this page, Wayne Horning (who had split by this time from the company bearing his name) entered a Wayne-G.M.C powered car in 1952, driven by one Puffy Puffer. No other details given, except that the attempt ended when the block (which had already survived one car-destroying crash at Bonneville) split lengthways under the pressure of vast amounts of nitro eek.gif

All I can say is, first I've heard of it! Anyone know any more?
fines
I'm afraid I am not at the top of my game when it comes to Wayne Horning and the like, but from pictures I can say that the #95 Wayne Mfg. in 1953 is very probably the same as the #67 Johnson-Herbert in 1951, of which I am looking at a picture with Bayliss Levrett seated in the car (from the official Indy website, I'll post a link later). But it's very unlikely the car or even a part of it was built by Joe Silnes, as Johnson was from Southern California, and Silnes from Indiana/Ohio. There may be a confusion in the original source, as there were a number of Johnson/Johnston/Johnstones racing at the time, including a Fred Johnston from Ohio who was running an Offenhauser-powered Sprinter during the time which may well have had a Silnes body.

Bill Johnson ran a couple of Sprint Cars in the West in the late forties, and with the wealth of capable craftsmen available directly at his doorstep he is very unlikely to have gone east to have a racing car body build! Anyway, I have a few pictures of one of the cars, wearing #7 in 1948, #17 in 1949 and #27 in 1950. It was mostly driven by Bob (Cross) "Denny" and its overall shape resembles the #67 Johnson-Herbert, however I don't think it was the same car. The car in question presumably ran as Wayne Engineering Special #88 in 1949 and #23 in 1950, but I would love to see photographic evidence!!!

The #62 Motor Trends (of which there's also a pic at the Indy site) was the Koehnle-Smith or Johnny Koehnle Special in 1949 and '50, respectively, always #62. It was a very different car and Koehnle, I'm pretty sure, a Midwesterner (Michigan?).

The "Puffy Puffer" story is a good one, but the only 6-cylinder entered that year was the Cummins Diesel. Either the year's wrong, or the whole story bollocks!
fines
http://www.indy500.com/photo/large.php?pho...es_id=Array&o=h

This is the Johnny Koehnle in 1951. I can't find the Bill Johnson atm, it appears to be in the wrong folder...
fines
http://www.indy500.com/photo/large.php?pho...es_id=Array&o=h

Here is one, but it doesn't show the driver. There is still another...
fines
http://www.indy500.com/photo/large.php?pho...es_id=Array&o=h

Here's the Levrett pic (Gosh! It was #688 of 690 in the 1950 folder!), I think you can see enough to embrace the thought of both cars being identical.
rateus
Indeed I can smile.gif

Thanks again Michael for your prompt, informative response up.gif
MPea3
Originally posted by MPea3


My father was the librarian at GSU from 1958 until his death in 1974 and the north building was named after him. The library has recently undergone a facelift and the new librarian has invited me to come visit for a tour. Let me see what favors I can call.


I'm happy to say that one of the special collection librarians at GSU is sending me a DVD copy of the VHS film "The Racing Cars and Craft of Myron Stevens" clap.gif
David M. Kane
There is a plaque in the Stutz Building in Indianapolis which lists the 71 (I believe) car manufacturers who were in business in Indiana prior to the Depression.
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