I mentioned previously that my nephew, Ben Simpson, was thinking of going to get a Dodge for what we know in Australia as 'Appendix J' racing... Historic Touring Cars.
He's now purchased a 1964 model (which qualifies for the use of the New Process gearbox and possibly disc brakes) and is shortly to start work on it.
Of course, his initial choice (as a devout Chrysler man... err... lad... well, he's about 26) was a Valiant, these being used in small numbers in this class with the sole engine sold in them here, the 225 Slant 6.
But the thought of laying serious rubber (6" wheel width maximum, radial tyres only for this particular year model in this class) as he's going to be able to do with a nice fat 318 'Poly' engine outweighed the convenience of setting up the smaller car.
He's naturally doing all the work himself. Well, I guess I'll help out a little, and my brother will undoubtedly give him a hand and let him use his chassis dyno.
So the first step was to obtain a New Process box, and I found one of these for him a couple of weeks ago. It has a first gear ratio of about 2.6:1, so it's not a wide ratio box (ratios are free, but you must use the box originally optionable or supplied with the car) and there's no doubt it will satisfy all needs.
But I'm starting this thread in the hope that it will be both interesting to members of the forum as Ben goes through the process of building up the car (pics will be posted along the way) and also because Ben will have need of help from America in sourcing some parts.
For instance, the box came without a bellhousing, and naturally there is no flywheel. So, if there's anyone out there in Atlas F1 Tech Forumland who can help us source these things it would be much appreciated.
We have a contact (more family... my cousin's husband) who ships stuff from California every week, so it's really just a matter of getting the stuff to his cohort there.
If anyone is happy to help, please let us know by e.mailing the project:
bensimpson@racingphoenix.com
We're looking at about a year for the building of the car. There is plenty to do, as you'll see as photos start to show on this thread. From body rust to engine experimentation (a second engine is being purchased out of a truck for possible stronger rods and crank), the year will be full of activity for young Ben as he fits it all in between money making private automotive work, buying and selling the odd car and his 'day job' which has him on permanent afternoon shift as an Auto Club serviceman (RACQ mechanic to you Queenslanders).
For some further background, the Group N categories for Historic Touring Cars are pre-1958, then 1961 to 1964 and post-1964. They allow cars to be built from the ground up, but they must be cars that sold at least 100 units.
Original head castings, block, gearbox housing and rear axle housing must be retained, as must the original form of suspension. Freedoms are plentiful in areas like valve sizes, porting, pistons and rods, gear ratios, suspension modifications etc. Bodywork must remain unaltered. 60% aspect ratio tyres are the lowest profile allowable.
Ben has raced in the HQ Holden class for a couple of seasons, though not for the past year. He bought one car and was running fairly well in it, but recognised that it was down on power. So he bought a car that had a good engine and put that into his and advanced further up the field.
Over the summer break (we essentially race autumn to spring in Australia) he and his mate set to, Ben freshening up the good engine and at the same time making the original engine indentical to it while both of them tidied up the bodywork on the two cars and repainted them.
They ran as a team and were quickly able to establish themselves at the front of the field. But the pressure was too much for Ben, he just wanted to race for fun and his bid for the local Championship faded under this pressure. With that experience he decided he had to race something that nobody else ran, something he could enjoy and maybe sometimes nibble at the heels of something that should really be much faster.
Looks like fun times ahead...
Full Version: 225? Why when there's a 318 to be had?
I'm sure Ben has that already...
But what he's after here are regular parts, parts sold on cars in that era in the States which weren't fitted to cars sold here.
I don't think, for instance, Chrysler ever sold a V8 engine hooked up to a manual transmission on any of their Australian production cars at all. There were V8-engined trucks with manual boxes, of course. But not a car anywhere.
Valiant sixes came with 3-speed manuals, and a few 4-speeds right at the end of the Supercar era, but otherwise the last manual on a Chrysler passenger car in Australia was in the Chrysler Royal fitted with the 6-cyl L-head. That was a 3-speed with Borg Warner overdrive.
So what he's looking to do is get some bits from wrecking yards in the States. Hot-up stuff per se he will be able to source here or make himself.
But what he's after here are regular parts, parts sold on cars in that era in the States which weren't fitted to cars sold here.
I don't think, for instance, Chrysler ever sold a V8 engine hooked up to a manual transmission on any of their Australian production cars at all. There were V8-engined trucks with manual boxes, of course. But not a car anywhere.
Valiant sixes came with 3-speed manuals, and a few 4-speeds right at the end of the Supercar era, but otherwise the last manual on a Chrysler passenger car in Australia was in the Chrysler Royal fitted with the 6-cyl L-head. That was a 3-speed with Borg Warner overdrive.
So what he's looking to do is get some bits from wrecking yards in the States. Hot-up stuff per se he will be able to source here or make himself.
Okay, here's a question for Mopar heads...
What differences are there between the 318 Poly engines made for trucks and cars?
Do the trucks, for instance, have thicker wall casting in the bores as they do in the 225s? Different rods or cranks?
What differences are there between the 318 Poly engines made for trucks and cars?
Do the trucks, for instance, have thicker wall casting in the bores as they do in the 225s? Different rods or cranks?
Originally posted by Ray Bell
I mentioned previously that my nephew, Ben Simpson, was thinking of going to a Dodge for what we know in Australia as 'Appendix J' racing... Historic Touring Cars.
He's now purchased a 1964 model (which qualifies for the use of the New Process gearbox and possibly disc brakes) and is shortly to start work on it.
Of course, his initial choice (as a devout Chrysler man... err... lad... well, he's about 26) was a Valiant, these being used in small numbers in this class with the sole engine sold in them here, the 225 Slant 6.
But the thought of laying serious rubber (6" wheel width maximum, radial tyres only for this particular year model in this class) as he's going to be able to do with a nice fat 318 'Poly' engine outweighed the convenience of setting up the smaller car.
He's naturally doing all the work himself. Well, I guess I'll help out a little, and my brother will undoubtedly give him a hand and let him use his chassis dyno.
So the first step was to obtain a New Process box, and I found one of these for him a couple of weeks ago. It has a first gear ratio of about 2.6:1, so it's not a wide ratio box (ratios are free, but you must use the box originally optionable or supplied with the car) and there's no doubt it will satisfy all needs.
But I'm starting this thread in the hope that it will be both interesting to members of the forum as Ben goes through the process of building up the car (pics will be posted along the way) and also because Ben will have need of help from America in sourcing some parts.
For instance, the box came without a bellhousing, and naturally there is no flywheel. So, if there's anyone out there in Atlas F1 Tech Forumland who can help us source these things it would be much appreciated.
We have a contact (more family... my cousin's husband) who ships stuff from California every week, so it's really just a matter of getting the stuff to his cohort there.
If anyone is happy to help, please let us know by e.mailing the project:
64dodge@theraces.com
We're looking at about a year for the building of the car. There is plenty to do, as you'll see as photos start to show on this thread. From body rust to engine experimentation (a second engine is being purchased out of a truck for possible stronger rods and crank), the year will be full of activity for young Ben as he fits it all in between money making private automotive work, buying and selling the odd car and his 'day job' which has him on permanent afternoon shift as an Auto Club serviceman (RACQ mechanic to you Queenslanders).
For some further background, the Group N categories for Historic Touring Cars are pre-1958, then 1961 to 1964 and post-1964. They allow cars to be built from the ground up, but they must be cars that sold at least 100 units.
Original head castings, block, gearbox housing and rear axle housing must be retained, as must the original form of suspension. Freedoms are plentiful in areas like valve sizes, porting, pistons and rods, gear ratios, suspension modifications etc. Bodywork must remain unaltered. 60% aspect ratio tyres are the lowest profile allowable.
Ben has raced in the HQ Holden class for a couple of seasons, though not for the past year. He bought one car and was running fairly well in it, but recognised that it was down on power. So he bought a car that had a good engine and put that into his and advanced further up the field.
Over the summer break (we essentially race autumn to spring in Australia) he and his mate set to, Ben freshening up the good engine and at the same time making the original engine indentical to it while both of them tidied up the bodywork on the two cars and repainted them.
They ran as a team and were quickly able to establish themselves at the front of the field. But the pressure was too much for Ben, he just wanted to race for fun and his bid for the local Championship faded under this pressure. With that experience he decided he had to race something that nobody else ran, something he could enjoy and maybe sometimes nibble at the heels of something that should really be much faster.
Looks like fun times ahead...
I mentioned previously that my nephew, Ben Simpson, was thinking of going to a Dodge for what we know in Australia as 'Appendix J' racing... Historic Touring Cars.
He's now purchased a 1964 model (which qualifies for the use of the New Process gearbox and possibly disc brakes) and is shortly to start work on it.
Of course, his initial choice (as a devout Chrysler man... err... lad... well, he's about 26) was a Valiant, these being used in small numbers in this class with the sole engine sold in them here, the 225 Slant 6.
But the thought of laying serious rubber (6" wheel width maximum, radial tyres only for this particular year model in this class) as he's going to be able to do with a nice fat 318 'Poly' engine outweighed the convenience of setting up the smaller car.
He's naturally doing all the work himself. Well, I guess I'll help out a little, and my brother will undoubtedly give him a hand and let him use his chassis dyno.
So the first step was to obtain a New Process box, and I found one of these for him a couple of weeks ago. It has a first gear ratio of about 2.6:1, so it's not a wide ratio box (ratios are free, but you must use the box originally optionable or supplied with the car) and there's no doubt it will satisfy all needs.
But I'm starting this thread in the hope that it will be both interesting to members of the forum as Ben goes through the process of building up the car (pics will be posted along the way) and also because Ben will have need of help from America in sourcing some parts.
For instance, the box came without a bellhousing, and naturally there is no flywheel. So, if there's anyone out there in Atlas F1 Tech Forumland who can help us source these things it would be much appreciated.
We have a contact (more family... my cousin's husband) who ships stuff from California every week, so it's really just a matter of getting the stuff to his cohort there.
If anyone is happy to help, please let us know by e.mailing the project:
64dodge@theraces.com
We're looking at about a year for the building of the car. There is plenty to do, as you'll see as photos start to show on this thread. From body rust to engine experimentation (a second engine is being purchased out of a truck for possible stronger rods and crank), the year will be full of activity for young Ben as he fits it all in between money making private automotive work, buying and selling the odd car and his 'day job' which has him on permanent afternoon shift as an Auto Club serviceman (RACQ mechanic to you Queenslanders).
For some further background, the Group N categories for Historic Touring Cars are pre-1958, then 1961 to 1964 and post-1964. They allow cars to be built from the ground up, but they must be cars that sold at least 100 units.
Original head castings, block, gearbox housing and rear axle housing must be retained, as must the original form of suspension. Freedoms are plentiful in areas like valve sizes, porting, pistons and rods, gear ratios, suspension modifications etc. Bodywork must remain unaltered. 60% aspect ratio tyres are the lowest profile allowable.
Ben has raced in the HQ Holden class for a couple of seasons, though not for the past year. He bought one car and was running fairly well in it, but recognised that it was down on power. So he bought a car that had a good engine and put that into his and advanced further up the field.
Over the summer break (we essentially race autumn to spring in Australia) he and his mate set to, Ben freshening up the good engine and at the same time making the original engine indentical to it while both of them tidied up the bodywork on the two cars and repainted them.
They ran as a team and were quickly able to establish themselves at the front of the field. But the pressure was too much for Ben, he just wanted to race for fun and his bid for the local Championship faded under this pressure. With that experience he decided he had to race something that nobody else ran, something he could enjoy and maybe sometimes nibble at the heels of something that should really be much faster.
Looks like fun times ahead...
Production Touring Cars
Na = cars built before 1958
Nb = 1958-1964
Nc = 1965 - 1972
Ray, have you contacted the Tilleys?....they race a two speed Auto (S or R series)
Chrysler Clubs abound in Oz.....check out Classic Car Magazine.....
What happened to the Phoenix??? I'm confused! There is a whole thread about that....
THINKS: I wonder if that mate of mine still has the 318 in his shed.....??????
Best of Luck, Merry Christmas, Mick
Yes, this is the Phoenix... you are confused...
I should have photos very soon. I hope. But this thread is about building the car, I'll cover every stage along the way with pics and details.
Yeah, I had those dates right, didn't I?
And we have spoken to the Tilleys. When Ben was still thinking along the 225 lines (he actually bought a very nice 1964 Valiant to build up before I found the Phoenix for him... that will one day be restored as a road car or show car) Brad offered Ben a set of 190 rods, which are better for the 225 than the originals apparently. As you know, we only got the 225 here, but in America there were 190s as well.
And like I said, we are really only pursuing regular production parts that didn't come to Australia in large numbers... the 'Police and Taxi' brakes, the manual transmission bits, very little else. There are plenty of local suppliers for hot-up gear, so pistons will fall into place (unless something smart comes up elsewhere) and I suspect Ben will build his own inlet manifold as he's thinking of fitting eight (that is '8'!) Stromberg carbies.
So... is there anyone who can help us source a bellhousing, flywheel etc?
I should have photos very soon. I hope. But this thread is about building the car, I'll cover every stage along the way with pics and details.
Yeah, I had those dates right, didn't I?
And we have spoken to the Tilleys. When Ben was still thinking along the 225 lines (he actually bought a very nice 1964 Valiant to build up before I found the Phoenix for him... that will one day be restored as a road car or show car) Brad offered Ben a set of 190 rods, which are better for the 225 than the originals apparently. As you know, we only got the 225 here, but in America there were 190s as well.
And like I said, we are really only pursuing regular production parts that didn't come to Australia in large numbers... the 'Police and Taxi' brakes, the manual transmission bits, very little else. There are plenty of local suppliers for hot-up gear, so pistons will fall into place (unless something smart comes up elsewhere) and I suspect Ben will build his own inlet manifold as he's thinking of fitting eight (that is '8'!) Stromberg carbies.
So... is there anyone who can help us source a bellhousing, flywheel etc?
Strong advice would be to ring Rod Hadfeild about the bellhousing and flywheel.
http://www.rodshop.com.au/
http://www.rodshop.com.au/
Thanks for the link, Mark, but I think they're outside the field we're after...
They make bellhousings to fit different engines and gearboxes together, we're after the original Dodge/Plymouth bellhousing that was used in regular production in the USA.
They make bellhousings to fit different engines and gearboxes together, we're after the original Dodge/Plymouth bellhousing that was used in regular production in the USA.
http://www.dodgeparts.com.au/...from Australian Classic Car...more to follow (maybe) 
AustCharger
22 Albion St Warwick QLD
rivendel@flexi.net.au
Original All Chrysler Swapmeet
Mike Elly 03 9315 9780
Late July - Sandown
Gear Box Factory
80-82 Rosedale Ave Greenacre
02 9790 2984, 2342, 2601, etc
Fire power Auto
Chrysler/Mopar Parts
Narangba
07 3888 0929
AustCharger
22 Albion St Warwick QLD
rivendel@flexi.net.au
Original All Chrysler Swapmeet
Mike Elly 03 9315 9780
Late July - Sandown
Gear Box Factory
80-82 Rosedale Ave Greenacre
02 9790 2984, 2342, 2601, etc
Fire power Auto
Chrysler/Mopar Parts
Narangba
07 3888 0929
Please, 275, please... you have to understand...
We are not after parts that are in Australia. We want simple things that just aren't here, but are in abundance in America! Or relative abundance, anyway. We've been through all of these sources with little success, but in the average American early Chrysler wrecker this stuff will be readily available.
What we need to do is find them... or better still, find someone who knows them and can help us out.
Can I just repeat? We want an ordinary 318 to 4-speed bellhousing, flywheel, hydraulics etc for the clutch, 'Police and Taxi' brakes at this stage.
We'd also like to know if there is any significant difference in the 318 'Poly' engines as fitted to cars vs trucks. ie. do the truck engines have better cranks, rods or thicker cylinder walls?
We are not after parts that are in Australia. We want simple things that just aren't here, but are in abundance in America! Or relative abundance, anyway. We've been through all of these sources with little success, but in the average American early Chrysler wrecker this stuff will be readily available.
What we need to do is find them... or better still, find someone who knows them and can help us out.
Can I just repeat? We want an ordinary 318 to 4-speed bellhousing, flywheel, hydraulics etc for the clutch, 'Police and Taxi' brakes at this stage.
We'd also like to know if there is any significant difference in the 318 'Poly' engines as fitted to cars vs trucks. ie. do the truck engines have better cranks, rods or thicker cylinder walls?
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Thanks for the link, Mark, but I think they're outside the field we're after...
They make bellhousings to fit different engines and gearboxes together, we're after the original Dodge/Plymouth bellhousing that was used in regular production in the USA.
Thanks for the link, Mark, but I think they're outside the field we're after...
They make bellhousings to fit different engines and gearboxes together, we're after the original Dodge/Plymouth bellhousing that was used in regular production in the USA.
Sorry, I should have explained a bit better..
Rod Hadfield knows literally everybody thats worth knowing with anything older USA and a phone call to his extremely polite, friendly and helpful self will probably point you to exactly who has what you need and he probably knows the engine info off the top of his head.
He is constantly bringing in older cars and containers of stuff from the USA as well and may be able to chuck what you want in.
Originally posted by Mark Beckman
.....He is constantly bringing in older cars and containers of stuff from the USA as well and may be able to chuck what you want in.
.....He is constantly bringing in older cars and containers of stuff from the USA as well and may be able to chuck what you want in.
That is interesting... though we do have one of that kind of contact at the moment...
Problem I've struck there is these blokes specialise in GM in the main and don't get much from the Mopar line. And don't have Mopar contacts. Anyway, thanks for the contact, I'll give him a call some time.
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Please, 275, please... you have to understand...
Please, 275, please... you have to understand...
Thats OK Ray.....I understand...what I believe is that if you source a gearbox to engine flange in Lower Mongolia....whilst good in the short term....may not be good for the overall racing program...hence my suggestion to try and come up with "local solutions"
Oh, I suspect 'local solutions' will come for some things... like maybe making our own bellhousing if we have to!
But we do have a transport channel for bits we find in America, so that's all in place. And that's where the vast numbers of bits were sold and remain. Remembering that Chrysler didn't sell any manual transmission versions of their V8-powered cars at all in Australia ever* you begin to understand that they might just be thin on the ground here.
* Can you think of a Chrysler V8 engined production car sold in Australia with a manual transmission? I can't!
But we do have a transport channel for bits we find in America, so that's all in place. And that's where the vast numbers of bits were sold and remain. Remembering that Chrysler didn't sell any manual transmission versions of their V8-powered cars at all in Australia ever* you begin to understand that they might just be thin on the ground here.
* Can you think of a Chrysler V8 engined production car sold in Australia with a manual transmission? I can't!
Dodge? What's this 'Dodge' business?
Well, some might remember a fair while back I posted a request for Dodge information or something, and I mentioned that my nephew wanted to get one to race in Group N.
Group N is the category that covers Historic Touring Cars, and Group Nb is the class for cars made between 1958 and 1964. It was into this class Ben wanted to get because it meant he wouldn't be in the same class as most of the Mustangs.
The car he wanted was a Dodge Phoenix... a bit less bulky than the Chev that Peter Hopwood used to race, and the Galaxies that raced in the sixties.
They come with a 318 cubic inch engine. Work that out, it comes to 5.2 litres. He can bore it out as far as he likes, so about 5.6 litres is well and truly in the pipleline.
The car weighs about 1.5 tons, so to make it accelerate he'll need to work on the engine a bit. Cam, gas flow the head, either eight single choke carbies or a couple of 4-barrels, extractors, nice high compression, bigger valves... he's hoping to easily get over 450bhp... somewhere closer to 500bhp in fact, but he wants it still to be able to be driven on the road so no more than that. After all, he's only allowed to use 6" wide rims and road radial tyres.
All of this with drum brakes...
But that's not as bad as it might seem, he can go to the Police and Taxi option drums, they're 11" x 3" instead of 10" x 2.5" (!) and he'll make up some nice venting arrangements to blast air into and onto the drums. There won't be backing plates, only a kind of spider arrangement with nice secure mountings for the master cylinders and to line up the shoes. There'll be twin leading shoes, and he will be using a balance bar and twin master cylinders.
Of course, these cars were only sold with an automatic transmission here. But the options in America included manual boxes, and the reason he isn't using a 1963 model (the first year a 4-speed was offered) is because the box they fitted in 1964 was one called the New Process A833 box and it's apparently pretty bulletproof (they bolted them up to 426 Hemis) and the ratios are good. Luckily I found one of those for him, though he's still to find a bellhousing.
The car he's got needs a lot of basic work too... originally the pride and joy of Wallace and Eileen Bruce of Gunnedah in northern New South Wales, they bought it from Syd Bird's Chrysler agency at Boggabri, about 20 miles away...
Unexpectedly I met with the former owner of this dealership a few months ago. I told him about this Golden Anniversary Dodge (1964 was Dodge's 50th anniversary) that Ben was buying and he immediately said, "I remember the day that Mrs Bruce came to pick that car up!" He related that she was surprised at the colour of the trim and that she'd commented that it matched her dress or her hair or something. And he recalled that they sold three of that model from the Boggabri dealership.
Well, it had a bit of a checkered career in their hands. In the eight years they owned it, the aging Bruces had two cars back into it. The first was a Holden HR that a woman backed up two carlengths to get them at a showground parking area, banging into the front of the Dodge. The Holden went home with a stoved in boot and the Dodge had a slight dent in one headlight surround trim. Then someone in a 4WD backed into the back of it, but only hit the towbar.
Can you see the damage to the left hand headlight rim?
When old Wallace Bruce retired from working the farm he moved to Tea Gardens, on the coast NSW north of Newcastle. Poor Eileen died a year or so later and in time he remarried. One day while then new Mrs Bruce was driving along the highway, a wheel fell off a truck in front of her and Wal was surprised to see (and feel) it go right under the left side of the car. It put a huge dent in the floor under the passenger's seat.
I wondered what that dent was when I looked at it!
It was time for Wallace to get a new car about 1972. The Dodge was only eight years old at that time, but with fuel prices rising and the car market the way it was, he couldn't get a decent trade in or price for it when he bought a Fairlane. So he gave it to his son, Arch.
Arch responded by passing his EH on to his eldest son and was soon enjoying cruising around the Gunnedah district and about his farm in the best of Mopar comfort and style. Not as good as a Peugeot or Citroen, but not bad, really. To this time the car had never needed anything more than regular servicing.
But Arch was to suffer heart problems. He had to go to Sydney, 300 miles away, for an operation and his wife Mavis took the Dodge into Tamworth (about 60 miles away) to pick him up from the airport when he was discharged. She was driving around Tamworth while she was there and pulled up at a set of traffic lights.
Looking in the mirror after she pulled up, she noticed an EH Holden coming up a little quickly. "He's never going to stop!" she said to herself and took her foot off the brake. Kaboom!
The Holden was a write-off, but she still drove the Dodge home. The towbar had given way a little and there were a few marks, but still the car was determined to not need any repair. What do you think? here's the rear for you to inspect now...
Finally, Arch and Mavis put the car off the road some time in the eighties. It had served the family well, had never had a spanner put to any major mechanical component and was now starting to show signs that it might be needed. With registration due, an oil leak from the engine and a leak from the Torqueflite box, maybe a little smoke out the exhaust on startup, it was rolled into the shed.
"I think that was a mistake," Tasman Bruce told me. Tasman is the son of Arch and Mavis, who have now both passed on. He took over the farm and so he got the car. "We had a mouse plague about ten years ago and having it in the shed meant that it was easy for the mice to get into it."
Yes, they got into it. They nested in the plenum chamber ahead of the windscreen. It must have been from there that they got up into the channels each side of the roof and over the doors, and through that path into the boot.
Everywhere they went they left a trail of urine, of course, and that has caused rust, in some cases serious. Though it is confined. You can just see some of it in the channel over this door... a little bit hanging down straight above the steering wheel as it is in the pic...
So Tasman drove it out of the shed and left it in the open, out in the harsh Gunnedah sun.
The sun, Tasman says, caused the car to fade and no doubt did little good to the leather trim on the seats. He still started it up occasionally, but eventually he decided to sell it.
Robert Schumack was looking for a project and bought it, moving it into his father's shed on the hill near the defunct Gunnedah abottoirs (what a sight that place is... looks like a bomb's hit it!).
It was about a fortnight after he bought it that I was working in Gunnedah and, as usual, making enquiries about things I might be looking for for myself and others. I found a member of the local classic car group and while I was talking to him about the brothers who own the Regal Underslung out of town he told me about the Dodge. I rang Tasman, but he told me Robert had bought it... Ben was disappointed because he really wanted to race a Dodge.
He went ahead and bought a fine old Valiant AP5 (another 1964 model... Chrysler nut through and through, he is!) to prepare to race, but he'd barely taken delivery of it (and it's a good one, very straight, original, will make a good restorer) when I had a call from the man I'd been talking to and he gave me Schumack's number. Robert would prefer to have some cash rather than the Dodge.
Next time through that area I dropped in and looked at it for Ben. Eventually the deal was done and Ben now has it on the Gold Coast. Here it is in all its bulky glory...
Luck was on Ben's side again when it comes to the acquisition of a 4-speed gearbox. I needed to have my little sports car carted from one place to another and called a guy I know with a tilt tray... he was out of town but gave me the number of a friend of his... this bloke turned out to be a Mopar nut too. "Any idea where we'd get a 4-speed for it?" I asked him after telling him about the project.
"I've got one you can have!" he said. It lacked a bellhousing, but Ben has a nice close ratio 4-speed and the price was pretty good. He's pulled it apart to check it right out...
... and found that the only thing wrong is slight wear on the shaft that the layshaft bearings run on. Great... now to find a bellhousing.
The engine...
...barely runs... leaks... but Ben has big plans. Watch this space!
Well, some might remember a fair while back I posted a request for Dodge information or something, and I mentioned that my nephew wanted to get one to race in Group N.
Group N is the category that covers Historic Touring Cars, and Group Nb is the class for cars made between 1958 and 1964. It was into this class Ben wanted to get because it meant he wouldn't be in the same class as most of the Mustangs.
The car he wanted was a Dodge Phoenix... a bit less bulky than the Chev that Peter Hopwood used to race, and the Galaxies that raced in the sixties.
They come with a 318 cubic inch engine. Work that out, it comes to 5.2 litres. He can bore it out as far as he likes, so about 5.6 litres is well and truly in the pipleline.
The car weighs about 1.5 tons, so to make it accelerate he'll need to work on the engine a bit. Cam, gas flow the head, either eight single choke carbies or a couple of 4-barrels, extractors, nice high compression, bigger valves... he's hoping to easily get over 450bhp... somewhere closer to 500bhp in fact, but he wants it still to be able to be driven on the road so no more than that. After all, he's only allowed to use 6" wide rims and road radial tyres.
All of this with drum brakes...
But that's not as bad as it might seem, he can go to the Police and Taxi option drums, they're 11" x 3" instead of 10" x 2.5" (!) and he'll make up some nice venting arrangements to blast air into and onto the drums. There won't be backing plates, only a kind of spider arrangement with nice secure mountings for the master cylinders and to line up the shoes. There'll be twin leading shoes, and he will be using a balance bar and twin master cylinders.
Of course, these cars were only sold with an automatic transmission here. But the options in America included manual boxes, and the reason he isn't using a 1963 model (the first year a 4-speed was offered) is because the box they fitted in 1964 was one called the New Process A833 box and it's apparently pretty bulletproof (they bolted them up to 426 Hemis) and the ratios are good. Luckily I found one of those for him, though he's still to find a bellhousing.
The car he's got needs a lot of basic work too... originally the pride and joy of Wallace and Eileen Bruce of Gunnedah in northern New South Wales, they bought it from Syd Bird's Chrysler agency at Boggabri, about 20 miles away...
Unexpectedly I met with the former owner of this dealership a few months ago. I told him about this Golden Anniversary Dodge (1964 was Dodge's 50th anniversary) that Ben was buying and he immediately said, "I remember the day that Mrs Bruce came to pick that car up!" He related that she was surprised at the colour of the trim and that she'd commented that it matched her dress or her hair or something. And he recalled that they sold three of that model from the Boggabri dealership.
Well, it had a bit of a checkered career in their hands. In the eight years they owned it, the aging Bruces had two cars back into it. The first was a Holden HR that a woman backed up two carlengths to get them at a showground parking area, banging into the front of the Dodge. The Holden went home with a stoved in boot and the Dodge had a slight dent in one headlight surround trim. Then someone in a 4WD backed into the back of it, but only hit the towbar.
Can you see the damage to the left hand headlight rim?
When old Wallace Bruce retired from working the farm he moved to Tea Gardens, on the coast NSW north of Newcastle. Poor Eileen died a year or so later and in time he remarried. One day while then new Mrs Bruce was driving along the highway, a wheel fell off a truck in front of her and Wal was surprised to see (and feel) it go right under the left side of the car. It put a huge dent in the floor under the passenger's seat.
I wondered what that dent was when I looked at it!
It was time for Wallace to get a new car about 1972. The Dodge was only eight years old at that time, but with fuel prices rising and the car market the way it was, he couldn't get a decent trade in or price for it when he bought a Fairlane. So he gave it to his son, Arch.
Arch responded by passing his EH on to his eldest son and was soon enjoying cruising around the Gunnedah district and about his farm in the best of Mopar comfort and style. Not as good as a Peugeot or Citroen, but not bad, really. To this time the car had never needed anything more than regular servicing.
But Arch was to suffer heart problems. He had to go to Sydney, 300 miles away, for an operation and his wife Mavis took the Dodge into Tamworth (about 60 miles away) to pick him up from the airport when he was discharged. She was driving around Tamworth while she was there and pulled up at a set of traffic lights.
Looking in the mirror after she pulled up, she noticed an EH Holden coming up a little quickly. "He's never going to stop!" she said to herself and took her foot off the brake. Kaboom!
The Holden was a write-off, but she still drove the Dodge home. The towbar had given way a little and there were a few marks, but still the car was determined to not need any repair. What do you think? here's the rear for you to inspect now...
Finally, Arch and Mavis put the car off the road some time in the eighties. It had served the family well, had never had a spanner put to any major mechanical component and was now starting to show signs that it might be needed. With registration due, an oil leak from the engine and a leak from the Torqueflite box, maybe a little smoke out the exhaust on startup, it was rolled into the shed.
"I think that was a mistake," Tasman Bruce told me. Tasman is the son of Arch and Mavis, who have now both passed on. He took over the farm and so he got the car. "We had a mouse plague about ten years ago and having it in the shed meant that it was easy for the mice to get into it."
Yes, they got into it. They nested in the plenum chamber ahead of the windscreen. It must have been from there that they got up into the channels each side of the roof and over the doors, and through that path into the boot.
Everywhere they went they left a trail of urine, of course, and that has caused rust, in some cases serious. Though it is confined. You can just see some of it in the channel over this door... a little bit hanging down straight above the steering wheel as it is in the pic...
So Tasman drove it out of the shed and left it in the open, out in the harsh Gunnedah sun.
The sun, Tasman says, caused the car to fade and no doubt did little good to the leather trim on the seats. He still started it up occasionally, but eventually he decided to sell it.
Robert Schumack was looking for a project and bought it, moving it into his father's shed on the hill near the defunct Gunnedah abottoirs (what a sight that place is... looks like a bomb's hit it!).
It was about a fortnight after he bought it that I was working in Gunnedah and, as usual, making enquiries about things I might be looking for for myself and others. I found a member of the local classic car group and while I was talking to him about the brothers who own the Regal Underslung out of town he told me about the Dodge. I rang Tasman, but he told me Robert had bought it... Ben was disappointed because he really wanted to race a Dodge.
He went ahead and bought a fine old Valiant AP5 (another 1964 model... Chrysler nut through and through, he is!) to prepare to race, but he'd barely taken delivery of it (and it's a good one, very straight, original, will make a good restorer) when I had a call from the man I'd been talking to and he gave me Schumack's number. Robert would prefer to have some cash rather than the Dodge.
Next time through that area I dropped in and looked at it for Ben. Eventually the deal was done and Ben now has it on the Gold Coast. Here it is in all its bulky glory...
Luck was on Ben's side again when it comes to the acquisition of a 4-speed gearbox. I needed to have my little sports car carted from one place to another and called a guy I know with a tilt tray... he was out of town but gave me the number of a friend of his... this bloke turned out to be a Mopar nut too. "Any idea where we'd get a 4-speed for it?" I asked him after telling him about the project.
"I've got one you can have!" he said. It lacked a bellhousing, but Ben has a nice close ratio 4-speed and the price was pretty good. He's pulled it apart to check it right out...
... and found that the only thing wrong is slight wear on the shaft that the layshaft bearings run on. Great... now to find a bellhousing.
The engine...
...barely runs... leaks... but Ben has big plans. Watch this space!
nobody races with a stock bellhousing
they use a scatter shield instead required by rule in most nonpurestock classes
jegs or an other hotrod parts house should still stock them
and a bit of other goodies for the small mopar block motors
or try hemmings mag or online for stock parts
273 318 340 v8 are all the same block casting
most of the HiPo stuff was for the 273 or the 340 but should work on a 318
they use a scatter shield instead required by rule in most nonpurestock classes
jegs or an other hotrod parts house should still stock them
and a bit of other goodies for the small mopar block motors
or try hemmings mag or online for stock parts
273 318 340 v8 are all the same block casting
most of the HiPo stuff was for the 273 or the 340 but should work on a 318
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Dodge? What's this 'Dodge' business?
Well, some might remember a fair while back I posted a request for Dodge information or something, and I mentioned that my nephew wanted to get one to race in Group N.
Group N is the category that covers Historic Touring Cars, and Group Nb is the class for cars made between 1958 and 1964. It was into this class Ben wanted to get because it meant he wouldn't be in the same class as most of the Mustangs.
The car he wanted was a Dodge Phoenix... a bit less bulky than the Chev that Peter Hopwood used to race, and the Galaxies that raced in the sixties.
They come with a 318 cubic inch engine. Work that out, it comes to 5.2 litres. He can bore it out as far as he likes, so about 5.6 litres is well and truly in the pipleline.
The car weighs about 1.5 tons, so to make it accelerate he'll need to work on the engine a bit. Cam, gas flow the head, either eight single choke carbies or a couple of 4-barrels, extractors, nice high compression, bigger valves... he's hoping to easily get over 450bhp... somewhere closer to 500bhp in fact, but he wants it still to be able to be driven on the road so no more than that. After all, he's only allowed to use 6" wide rims and road radial tyres.
All of this with drum brakes...
But that's not as bad as it might seem, he can go to the Police and Taxi option drums, they're 11" x 3" instead of 10" x 2.5" (!) and he'll make up some nice venting arrangements to blast air into and onto the drums. There won't be backing plates, only a kind of spider arrangement with nice secure mountings for the master cylinders and to line up the shoes. There'll be twin leading shoes, and he will be using a balance bar and twin master cylinders.
Of course, these cars were only sold with an automatic transmission here. But the options in America included manual boxes, and the reason he isn't using a 1963 model (the first year a 4-speed was offered) is because the box they fitted in 1964 was one called the New Process A833 box and it's apparently pretty bulletproof (they bolted them up to 426 Hemis) and the ratios are good. Luckily I found one of those for him, though he's still to find a bellhousing.
The car he's got needs a lot of basic work too... originally the pride and joy of Wallace and Eileen Bruce of Gunnedah in northern New South Wales, they bought it from Syd Bird's Chrysler agency at Boggabri, about 20 miles away...
Unexpectedly I met with the former owner of this dealership a few months ago. I told him about this Golden Anniversary Dodge (1964 was Dodge's 50th anniversary) that Ben was buying and he immediately said, "I remember the day that Mrs Bruce came to pick that car up!" He related that she was surprised at the colour of the trim and that she'd commented that it matched her dress or her hair or something. And he recalled that they sold three of that model from the Boggabri dealership.
Well, it had a bit of a checkered career in their hands. In the eight years they owned it, the aging Bruces had two cars back into it. The first was a Holden HR that a woman backed up two carlengths to get them at a showground parking area, banging into the front of the Dodge. The Holden went home with a stoved in boot and the Dodge had a slight dent in one headlight surround trim. Then someone in a 4WD backed into the back of it, but only hit the towbar.
Can you see the damage to the left hand headlight rim?
When old Wallace Bruce retired from working the farm he moved to Tea Gardens, on the coast NSW north of Newcastle. Poor Eileen died a year or so later and in time he remarried. One day while then new Mrs Bruce was driving along the highway, a wheel fell off a truck in front of her and Wal was surprised to see (and feel) it go right under the left side of the car. It put a huge dent in the floor under the passenger's seat.
I wondered what that dent was when I looked at it!
It was time for Wallace to get a new car about 1972. The Dodge was only eight years old at that time, but with fuel prices rising and the car market the way it was, he couldn't get a decent trade in or price for it when he bought a Fairlane. So he gave it to his son, Arch.
Arch responded by passing his EH on to his eldest son and was soon enjoying cruising around the Gunnedah district and about his farm in the best of Mopar comfort and style. Not as good as a Peugeot or Citroen, but not bad, really. To this time the car had never needed anything more than regular servicing.
But Arch was to suffer heart problems. He had to go to Sydney, 300 miles away, for an operation and his wife Mavis took the Dodge into Tamworth (about 60 miles away) to pick him up from the airport when he was discharged. She was driving around Tamworth while she was there and pulled up at a set of traffic lights.
Looking in the mirror after she pulled up, she noticed an EH Holden coming up a little quickly. "He's never going to stop!" she said to herself and took her foot off the brake. Kaboom!
The Holden was a write-off, but she still drove the Dodge home. The towbar had given way a little and there were a few marks, but still the car was determined to not need any repair. What do you think? here's the rear for you to inspect now...
Finally, Arch and Mavis put the car off the road some time in the eighties. It had served the family well, had never had a spanner put to any major mechanical component and was now starting to show signs that it might be needed. With registration due, an oil leak from the engine and a leak from the Torqueflite box, maybe a little smoke out the exhaust on startup, it was rolled into the shed.
"I think that was a mistake," Tasman Bruce told me. Tasman is the son of Arch and Mavis, who have now both passed on. He took over the farm and so he got the car. "We had a mouse plague about ten years ago and having it in the shed meant that it was easy for the mice to get into it."
Yes, they got into it. They nested in the plenum chamber ahead of the windscreen. It must have been from there that they got up into the channels each side of the roof and over the doors, and through that path into the boot.
Everywhere they went they left a trail of urine, of course, and that has caused rust, in some cases serious. Though it is confined. You can just see some of it in the channel over this door... a little bit hanging down straight above the steering wheel as it is in the pic...
So Tasman drove it out of the shed and left it in the open, out in the harsh Gunnedah sun.
The sun, Tasman says, caused the car to fade and no doubt did little good to the leather trim on the seats. He still started it up occasionally, but eventually he decided to sell it.
Robert Schumack was looking for a project and bought it, moving it into his father's shed on the hill near the defunct Gunnedah abottoirs (what a sight that place is... looks like a bomb's hit it!).
It was about a fortnight after he bought it that I was working in Gunnedah and, as usual, making enquiries about things I might be looking for for myself and others. I found a member of the local classic car group and while I was talking to him about the brothers who own the Regal Underslung out of town he told me about the Dodge. I rang Tasman, but he told me Robert had bought it... Ben was disappointed because he really wanted to race a Dodge.
He went ahead and bought a fine old Valiant AP5 (another 1964 model... Chrysler nut through and through, he is!) to prepare to race, but he'd barely taken delivery of it (and it's a good one, very straight, original, will make a good restorer) when I had a call from the man I'd been talking to and he gave me Schumack's number. Robert would prefer to have some cash rather than the Dodge.
Next time through that area I dropped in and looked at it for Ben. Eventually the deal was done and Ben now has it on the Gold Coast. Here it is in all its bulky glory...
Luck was on Ben's side again when it comes to the acquisition of a 4-speed gearbox. I needed to have my little sports car carted from one place to another and called a guy I know with a tilt tray... he was out of town but gave me the number of a friend of his... this bloke turned out to be a Mopar nut too. "Any idea where we'd get a 4-speed for it?" I asked him after telling him about the project.
"I've got one you can have!" he said. It lacked a bellhousing, but Ben has a nice close ratio 4-speed and the price was pretty good. He's pulled it apart to check it right out...
... and found that the only thing wrong is slight wear on the shaft that the layshaft bearings run on. Great... now to find a bellhousing.
The engine...
...barely runs... leaks... but Ben has big plans. Watch this space!
Dodge? What's this 'Dodge' business?
Well, some might remember a fair while back I posted a request for Dodge information or something, and I mentioned that my nephew wanted to get one to race in Group N.
Group N is the category that covers Historic Touring Cars, and Group Nb is the class for cars made between 1958 and 1964. It was into this class Ben wanted to get because it meant he wouldn't be in the same class as most of the Mustangs.
The car he wanted was a Dodge Phoenix... a bit less bulky than the Chev that Peter Hopwood used to race, and the Galaxies that raced in the sixties.
They come with a 318 cubic inch engine. Work that out, it comes to 5.2 litres. He can bore it out as far as he likes, so about 5.6 litres is well and truly in the pipleline.
The car weighs about 1.5 tons, so to make it accelerate he'll need to work on the engine a bit. Cam, gas flow the head, either eight single choke carbies or a couple of 4-barrels, extractors, nice high compression, bigger valves... he's hoping to easily get over 450bhp... somewhere closer to 500bhp in fact, but he wants it still to be able to be driven on the road so no more than that. After all, he's only allowed to use 6" wide rims and road radial tyres.
All of this with drum brakes...
But that's not as bad as it might seem, he can go to the Police and Taxi option drums, they're 11" x 3" instead of 10" x 2.5" (!) and he'll make up some nice venting arrangements to blast air into and onto the drums. There won't be backing plates, only a kind of spider arrangement with nice secure mountings for the master cylinders and to line up the shoes. There'll be twin leading shoes, and he will be using a balance bar and twin master cylinders.
Of course, these cars were only sold with an automatic transmission here. But the options in America included manual boxes, and the reason he isn't using a 1963 model (the first year a 4-speed was offered) is because the box they fitted in 1964 was one called the New Process A833 box and it's apparently pretty bulletproof (they bolted them up to 426 Hemis) and the ratios are good. Luckily I found one of those for him, though he's still to find a bellhousing.
The car he's got needs a lot of basic work too... originally the pride and joy of Wallace and Eileen Bruce of Gunnedah in northern New South Wales, they bought it from Syd Bird's Chrysler agency at Boggabri, about 20 miles away...
Unexpectedly I met with the former owner of this dealership a few months ago. I told him about this Golden Anniversary Dodge (1964 was Dodge's 50th anniversary) that Ben was buying and he immediately said, "I remember the day that Mrs Bruce came to pick that car up!" He related that she was surprised at the colour of the trim and that she'd commented that it matched her dress or her hair or something. And he recalled that they sold three of that model from the Boggabri dealership.
Well, it had a bit of a checkered career in their hands. In the eight years they owned it, the aging Bruces had two cars back into it. The first was a Holden HR that a woman backed up two carlengths to get them at a showground parking area, banging into the front of the Dodge. The Holden went home with a stoved in boot and the Dodge had a slight dent in one headlight surround trim. Then someone in a 4WD backed into the back of it, but only hit the towbar.
Can you see the damage to the left hand headlight rim?
When old Wallace Bruce retired from working the farm he moved to Tea Gardens, on the coast NSW north of Newcastle. Poor Eileen died a year or so later and in time he remarried. One day while then new Mrs Bruce was driving along the highway, a wheel fell off a truck in front of her and Wal was surprised to see (and feel) it go right under the left side of the car. It put a huge dent in the floor under the passenger's seat.
I wondered what that dent was when I looked at it!
It was time for Wallace to get a new car about 1972. The Dodge was only eight years old at that time, but with fuel prices rising and the car market the way it was, he couldn't get a decent trade in or price for it when he bought a Fairlane. So he gave it to his son, Arch.
Arch responded by passing his EH on to his eldest son and was soon enjoying cruising around the Gunnedah district and about his farm in the best of Mopar comfort and style. Not as good as a Peugeot or Citroen, but not bad, really. To this time the car had never needed anything more than regular servicing.
But Arch was to suffer heart problems. He had to go to Sydney, 300 miles away, for an operation and his wife Mavis took the Dodge into Tamworth (about 60 miles away) to pick him up from the airport when he was discharged. She was driving around Tamworth while she was there and pulled up at a set of traffic lights.
Looking in the mirror after she pulled up, she noticed an EH Holden coming up a little quickly. "He's never going to stop!" she said to herself and took her foot off the brake. Kaboom!
The Holden was a write-off, but she still drove the Dodge home. The towbar had given way a little and there were a few marks, but still the car was determined to not need any repair. What do you think? here's the rear for you to inspect now...
Finally, Arch and Mavis put the car off the road some time in the eighties. It had served the family well, had never had a spanner put to any major mechanical component and was now starting to show signs that it might be needed. With registration due, an oil leak from the engine and a leak from the Torqueflite box, maybe a little smoke out the exhaust on startup, it was rolled into the shed.
"I think that was a mistake," Tasman Bruce told me. Tasman is the son of Arch and Mavis, who have now both passed on. He took over the farm and so he got the car. "We had a mouse plague about ten years ago and having it in the shed meant that it was easy for the mice to get into it."
Yes, they got into it. They nested in the plenum chamber ahead of the windscreen. It must have been from there that they got up into the channels each side of the roof and over the doors, and through that path into the boot.
Everywhere they went they left a trail of urine, of course, and that has caused rust, in some cases serious. Though it is confined. You can just see some of it in the channel over this door... a little bit hanging down straight above the steering wheel as it is in the pic...
So Tasman drove it out of the shed and left it in the open, out in the harsh Gunnedah sun.
The sun, Tasman says, caused the car to fade and no doubt did little good to the leather trim on the seats. He still started it up occasionally, but eventually he decided to sell it.
Robert Schumack was looking for a project and bought it, moving it into his father's shed on the hill near the defunct Gunnedah abottoirs (what a sight that place is... looks like a bomb's hit it!).
It was about a fortnight after he bought it that I was working in Gunnedah and, as usual, making enquiries about things I might be looking for for myself and others. I found a member of the local classic car group and while I was talking to him about the brothers who own the Regal Underslung out of town he told me about the Dodge. I rang Tasman, but he told me Robert had bought it... Ben was disappointed because he really wanted to race a Dodge.
He went ahead and bought a fine old Valiant AP5 (another 1964 model... Chrysler nut through and through, he is!) to prepare to race, but he'd barely taken delivery of it (and it's a good one, very straight, original, will make a good restorer) when I had a call from the man I'd been talking to and he gave me Schumack's number. Robert would prefer to have some cash rather than the Dodge.
Next time through that area I dropped in and looked at it for Ben. Eventually the deal was done and Ben now has it on the Gold Coast. Here it is in all its bulky glory...
Luck was on Ben's side again when it comes to the acquisition of a 4-speed gearbox. I needed to have my little sports car carted from one place to another and called a guy I know with a tilt tray... he was out of town but gave me the number of a friend of his... this bloke turned out to be a Mopar nut too. "Any idea where we'd get a 4-speed for it?" I asked him after telling him about the project.
"I've got one you can have!" he said. It lacked a bellhousing, but Ben has a nice close ratio 4-speed and the price was pretty good. He's pulled it apart to check it right out...
... and found that the only thing wrong is slight wear on the shaft that the layshaft bearings run on. Great... now to find a bellhousing.
The engine...
...barely runs... leaks... but Ben has big plans. Watch this space!
Terrific story Ray, love the puny carb fitted...looks like a single throat Stromberg as fitted to Holden sixes!.
This handsome beast will look great in Nb.
Still don't understand what the problem is with gearbox's. Do valiant 3 and 4 speed manual boxes mate to the 318 (they appear to have been an option). Weapons like Dodge Challengers were also brought into the country abd someone must know where to source parts.
Then all you need is the 1/2 inch plate for the scatter shield!!
I raced a friends VG Valiant in about 1989. It was a 360ci with a BW 4 speed. It had about 500hp and run on 7" rear wheels, it was great around Oran Pk!
I will be talking to my mate shortly and I will find out if he knows of any bits that may suit. I may also know of a 318 truck engine that was in Katoomba.
I will be talking to my mate shortly and I will find out if he knows of any bits that may suit. I may also know of a 318 truck engine that was in Katoomba.
That's a two-barrel, 275...
The Poly is a very different engine to the later 318s. The manifolds are different, there's a minor difference in the bellhousing (it can be made to fit) and the heads are totally different.
Some people (Gary Pavlovich is among them) reckon they are sadly neglected... that they have a lot of untapped potential. They were an attempt to cut costs compared to the early Hemis while still retaining some of the advantages, and in this they have a combustion chamber/valve arrangement like a lot of modern engines... PRV engines, Mitsubishi etc
One thing I've found out is that the bellhousing, flywheel and starter motor for the manual flathead 6 and the 301 Poly V8 of the 1960/61 period are identical... so that gives us some hope of scratching up a bellhousing we can modify from a Chrysler Royal 6 perhaps...
The 'problem with gearboxes' is that the optioned 4-speed for the '64 Polara was the New Process unit. This is not a Borg Warner, it's a much stronger box and it has good ratios. The Valiant boxes are nowhere near as strong, and the Valiants, IIRC, never had the Poly engine. Irrespective of that, Valiants were never sold with a V8 and a manual in Australia.
ray b... thanks for that tip, we'll see how we get on there. Like I said, the flywheel has ceased to be a problem. Ben has actually bid on a scattershield on e.bay and missed out on it. Here we can put a separate scattershield around the bellhousing, sort of line the tunnel with a plate to deflect flying bits of flywheel. But the proper scattershield bellhousing would be nice.
Only thing is, if the scrutineers noticed there was no separate scattershield they'd never believe that the cast one was up to the job...
Catalina... yes, the truck engine, if it's just lying around, would be of some interest if it's a Poly... what year is it?
The Poly is a very different engine to the later 318s. The manifolds are different, there's a minor difference in the bellhousing (it can be made to fit) and the heads are totally different.
Some people (Gary Pavlovich is among them) reckon they are sadly neglected... that they have a lot of untapped potential. They were an attempt to cut costs compared to the early Hemis while still retaining some of the advantages, and in this they have a combustion chamber/valve arrangement like a lot of modern engines... PRV engines, Mitsubishi etc
One thing I've found out is that the bellhousing, flywheel and starter motor for the manual flathead 6 and the 301 Poly V8 of the 1960/61 period are identical... so that gives us some hope of scratching up a bellhousing we can modify from a Chrysler Royal 6 perhaps...
The 'problem with gearboxes' is that the optioned 4-speed for the '64 Polara was the New Process unit. This is not a Borg Warner, it's a much stronger box and it has good ratios. The Valiant boxes are nowhere near as strong, and the Valiants, IIRC, never had the Poly engine. Irrespective of that, Valiants were never sold with a V8 and a manual in Australia.
ray b... thanks for that tip, we'll see how we get on there. Like I said, the flywheel has ceased to be a problem. Ben has actually bid on a scattershield on e.bay and missed out on it. Here we can put a separate scattershield around the bellhousing, sort of line the tunnel with a plate to deflect flying bits of flywheel. But the proper scattershield bellhousing would be nice.
Only thing is, if the scrutineers noticed there was no separate scattershield they'd never believe that the cast one was up to the job...
Catalina... yes, the truck engine, if it's just lying around, would be of some interest if it's a Poly... what year is it?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ray Bell
That's a two-barrel, 275...
... so that gives us some hope of scratching up a bellhousing we can modify from a Chrysler Royal 6 perhaps...
[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm, thanks.....now haven't I seen a Chrysler Royal going 'round....think think....
Catalina... yes, the truck engine, if it's just lying around, would be of some interest if it's a Poly... what year is it? [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh! so you are not interested in the 318 truck engine I mentioned in a shed!! .....
That's a two-barrel, 275...
... so that gives us some hope of scratching up a bellhousing we can modify from a Chrysler Royal 6 perhaps...
[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm, thanks.....now haven't I seen a Chrysler Royal going 'round....think think....
Catalina... yes, the truck engine, if it's just lying around, would be of some interest if it's a Poly... what year is it? [/B][/QUOTE]
Oh! so you are not interested in the 318 truck engine I mentioned in a shed!! .....
Ray,
I was talking to my brother and he explained it like this... The poly motor is kind of like a big block and nothing from a 318/340/360 will fit! So now I see your problem!
The last Chrysler Royal V8 I saw was in Charlie Goodman's garage in Harbord! He had a spare motor, I wonder if he still has it? (14 years later)
The 318 truck engine was in a late 1970s truck so it probably would not be of any use.
My own way of solving this problem would be to get a bellhousing from Dellow and paint it Chrysler Blue and bolt a Ford Toploader behind it!
I was talking to my brother and he explained it like this... The poly motor is kind of like a big block and nothing from a 318/340/360 will fit! So now I see your problem!
The last Chrysler Royal V8 I saw was in Charlie Goodman's garage in Harbord! He had a spare motor, I wonder if he still has it? (14 years later)
The 318 truck engine was in a late 1970s truck so it probably would not be of any use.
My own way of solving this problem would be to get a bellhousing from Dellow and paint it Chrysler Blue and bolt a Ford Toploader behind it!
No, he has the gearbox... and it's probably better than a top loader...
No need to go to Dellow if he finds one on e.bay or if he uses a modified one that a friend of his might just have on an engine pulled out of a Chrysler Royal 6-cyl ute.
But it is cast iron... the original ones are aluminium. And don't have to be modified.
Now when did I reject any offers of old engines? And do you think I should go visit Charlie again?
No need to go to Dellow if he finds one on e.bay or if he uses a modified one that a friend of his might just have on an engine pulled out of a Chrysler Royal 6-cyl ute.
But it is cast iron... the original ones are aluminium. And don't have to be modified.
Now when did I reject any offers of old engines? And do you think I should go visit Charlie again?
Give Charlie a ring and see if he still has any spares. I think his Royal went to a friend of one of his sons and any spares my have gone with it. He sold it in about 1990!
It dosen't really matter what he runs in the car as long as the scruitineer passes it!
A mate run a Toploader in place of an alloy T5 by painting it silver! This was in the Atcc!
Most people would not know if it was the right part or a dodgy part in a car like a Dodge but if he was running a Holden....
It dosen't really matter what he runs in the car as long as the scruitineer passes it!
A mate run a Toploader in place of an alloy T5 by painting it silver! This was in the Atcc!
Most people would not know if it was the right part or a dodgy part in a car like a Dodge but if he was running a Holden....
Dodgy part?
No, his integrity is at stake here... and there's no real problem, it's just going to take a little effort to get the bellhousing.
Mind you, it's a heavy little devil. I don't know if the car will weigh less with the manual than the auto... it should, but my hernia says it won't!
No, his integrity is at stake here... and there's no real problem, it's just going to take a little effort to get the bellhousing.
Mind you, it's a heavy little devil. I don't know if the car will weigh less with the manual than the auto... it should, but my hernia says it won't!
Interesting, but very ritzy...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...=ADME:B:EF:US:1
*EDIT* This was an eBay auction of an aluminium bonnet... minimum bid was$3,500!
I'm told that bumpers and front fenders also came in 'aluminum'.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...=ADME:B:EF:US:1
*EDIT* This was an eBay auction of an aluminium bonnet... minimum bid was$3,500!
I'm told that bumpers and front fenders also came in 'aluminum'.
A friend of mine had a 1964 Plymouth Fury that looked just like that car, even in terms of condition. The interior was infinitely better though, not having suffered a plague of rodents. It had a 361 cubic inch engine which was actually a big block. Earlier, there was even a 350 version of the big block, which was introduced in 1958. He bought the Fury from a junkyard and drove it home, although the radiator went on the way. He paid something like $300 for it and found about $900 in the trunk, under the mat. It eventually superceded his almost new Cavalier as his daily driver, but I think he gave up on it when the rear axle went.
If you can afford that hood, you should be able to build an engine that will mask any other weaknesses the car might have. I've seen some improbably fast 340 powered cars.
If you can afford that hood, you should be able to build an engine that will mask any other weaknesses the car might have. I've seen some improbably fast 340 powered cars.
There are two reasons for not going big block...
Apparently, according to what we know about homologation, the only way to go big block that year is to go to the hemi. They cost a fortune, so much so that I believe they are in production again.
The other reason is one of practicality... weight vs power vs available traction.
With 6" rims on 60-series radial tyres, keeping as much weight off the front as possible is important. The alloy hood would be a very good thing from this point of view... but out of range for the saving of maybe 20lbs. With the small block, we expect better turn in. Stopping it is also an issue.
Then the Poly has a huge potential for solid reliable horsepower. It is almost a hemi after all, but it missed out on a lot of development because the early hemi was already there. Ben expects to get 450+ bhp, which has to be fed to the track via those 6" tyres. While he doesn't mind the thought of being the one driver on the circuit producing the most tyre smoke, he doesn't think it necessary to fit a big block to make it.
Boring it out to 4" gives a wide range of pistons too, very practical size for parts availability. Same with the rear end... while the box is good enough for a big block, the 8.75" final drive might find it a bit testy. And Dana rear ends for this model are hard to find in the US... impossible in Australia.
There will be some serious dieting going on around the car, Ben's looking for ways to take weight out, putting a big block in there would be counter productive.
Thanks for your input...
Apparently, according to what we know about homologation, the only way to go big block that year is to go to the hemi. They cost a fortune, so much so that I believe they are in production again.
The other reason is one of practicality... weight vs power vs available traction.
With 6" rims on 60-series radial tyres, keeping as much weight off the front as possible is important. The alloy hood would be a very good thing from this point of view... but out of range for the saving of maybe 20lbs. With the small block, we expect better turn in. Stopping it is also an issue.
Then the Poly has a huge potential for solid reliable horsepower. It is almost a hemi after all, but it missed out on a lot of development because the early hemi was already there. Ben expects to get 450+ bhp, which has to be fed to the track via those 6" tyres. While he doesn't mind the thought of being the one driver on the circuit producing the most tyre smoke, he doesn't think it necessary to fit a big block to make it.
Boring it out to 4" gives a wide range of pistons too, very practical size for parts availability. Same with the rear end... while the box is good enough for a big block, the 8.75" final drive might find it a bit testy. And Dana rear ends for this model are hard to find in the US... impossible in Australia.
There will be some serious dieting going on around the car, Ben's looking for ways to take weight out, putting a big block in there would be counter productive.
Thanks for your input...
Ray,
Assuming you were responding to me, I wasn't suggesting you install a big block. The 340 was the hottest small block Chrysler offered the public here, particularly the ones used in the AAR Cuda and Challenger T/A. The 361 was never a high performance engine. There were some impressive 383s, but they came a bit later.
I'm not sure the A series 318 can be called an almost Hemi, but considering that wedge slant-6s were called Hemis in Australia, I suppose you may have a different perspective. If it is possible, I would recommend converting to an LA series pure wedge anyway. They weigh 55 lbs less and have infinite tuning potential.
If you haven't already seen it, this site has plenty of information.
Assuming you were responding to me, I wasn't suggesting you install a big block. The 340 was the hottest small block Chrysler offered the public here, particularly the ones used in the AAR Cuda and Challenger T/A. The 361 was never a high performance engine. There were some impressive 383s, but they came a bit later.
I'm not sure the A series 318 can be called an almost Hemi, but considering that wedge slant-6s were called Hemis in Australia, I suppose you may have a different perspective. If it is possible, I would recommend converting to an LA series pure wedge anyway. They weigh 55 lbs less and have infinite tuning potential.
If you haven't already seen it, this site has plenty of information.
Oh yes, I see your point now... you talked about big blocks, but came back to the 340...
No, the rules say the engine has to be what was sold in that model. Shame about that weigh penalty... but we have to play by the rules we've got. The LA engine didn't come out in that size until a few years later.
Bored to 4" it will net 332ci. or 5.44 litres. That's not insignificant.
As for the 'almost hemi' comment, the valve layout of the Poly is very similar to a lot of Japanese and European engines built today. The offset lie of the valves makes it possible to include in the 'almost hemi' chamber design both a squish area and a spark plug that comes out the side of the head rather than the top.
Obviously, the true Hemi uses a central plug position and that creates production problems. This issue is attacked in slightly different ways in Daimler, Chrysler, Renault Gordini, Peugeot and other engines with pushrod valve actuation, and still more ways in the narrow angle DOHC cam engines that abound today. It seems to me that the reduced complication of an extra rocker shaft and this provision of central plug location was the reason Chrysler went to this design.
That said, the breathing potential of the head is very good. Not exploited greatly by the hot rodding people because they went for the earlier Hemi, the availability of things such as inlet manifolds is lower for these than most engines. I imagine NASCAR focussed on the big blocks, so the Poly got scant attention.
Regarding the term 'Hemi' and your comment about Australian usage of it...
The venerable Slant 6 was produced here until about 1968. Then Chrysler Australia introduced a vertical inline 6 to replace it, a lighter engine that I understand is very robust. It came in 215, 245 and 265 cubic inch capacities, the upper two in a variety of stages of tune including the triple-DCOE Weber version with which they tried to take out the Bathurst race.
I have never seen the combustion chamber of this engine, but I suspect it might be just like a Poly, with valve angling achieved in the more modern way with spherical pivots for the rockers.
I don't know if this engine was made anywhere else in the world... it seems from your comment that it wasn't.
FWIW, these are the rules:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Group Nb is... a group for series production type touring cars, manufactured prior to 31 December 1964. The group recognises models or components homologated for competition by the manufacturer, however at least 100 examples of a particular model must have been produced for the vehicle to be eligible.
1. ELIGIBILITY
1.1 Series production type touring cars manufactured prior to d1 December 1964, of which 100 of the particular model must have been produced.
1.2 Classes
...Class A1... Over 4500cc
2. BODY
2.1 The body must be of a touring hard-top form and must provide adequate normal seating accomodation for four or more adults.
2.2 ... relates only to smallest classes
2.3 The bodywork, body fittings and interior trim in its entirety must be as supplied by the manufacturer except only that the wheel nave plates (hub caps!) must be removed, additional instruments fitted and steering wheel replaced: provided that the replacement wheel is not less than 330mm in diameter (etc relating to steering wheel size - not relevant here)
2.4 The use of undertrays, fairings etc, designed to improve the aerodynamic form of the automobile shall not be permissible unless supplied as standard equipment.
2.5 The original rear seats must be retained in all respects, including location. The driver's seat may be replaced with a CAMS-approved driving seat. The original passenger seat must remain in place... must be trimmed in the same, matching or complimentary colours as other trim on the vehicle.
On vehicles fitted with a bench front seat as original equipment, the whole seat may be removed, and the passenger seat must be a bucket seat from a comparable model. If the original equipment bench seat is retained, modification of the driver's portion of that seat is free so long as the oriign of the seat may be determined.
2.6 Restoration of original trim is permitted, but should be as near as practicable to original specifications. Floor coverings may be removed. Insulating material may be added.
3. PERMITTED MODIFICATIONS
Mechanical modifications may be made, provided that the following restrictions are observed:
3.1 ENGINE: The original type of cylinder block and crankcase must be employed. the bore may be varied and/or the stroke reduced provided that the swept volume of the engine remains within the same cubic capacity class as that within which the engine came as supplied by the manufacturer.
The original type of cylinder-head casting must be employed. the cylinder-head may be modified provided that such modification is effected only by removal of metal.
A dry sump is not permitted unless fitted as original equipment on the make and model of the vehicle of the period.
The radiator cooling fan may be be removed; electrically powered fans are permitted.
3.2 INDUCTION: Forced induction or fuel injection is not permitted, unless such induction method was employed as standard on the make and model of vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer concerned.
Later models of carburettors which were available in the period are acceptable, even with different throat sizes, provided that the outward appearance is the same. Carburettors of a make not available in the period are unacceptable.
3.3 TRANSMISSION: The original type of gearbox and final drive assemblies including housings as supplied by the manufacturer for the make and model concerned shall be employed. the final drive assembly is otherwise free, save that the original housing must be retained (although it may be subject to any machining operations provided always that its origin is able to be established).
The number of gear ratios may not be changed.
3.4 SUSPENSION: The original form and type of suspension only shall be employed (eg. a semi-eliptic leaf-spring suspended live rear axle may not be replaced by a coil-spring suspended de Dion type and so on).
At all times, the original form of steering and suspension joints must be employed, and in particular may not be replaced by spherical or 'Rose' type joints.
3.5BRAKES: the original form and type of brake system shall be employed (eg. drum brakes may not be replaced by disc brakes). The major brake dimensions (ie. internal drum diameter and width) shall be identical with the dimensions of these components as supplied as original equipment by the manufacturer concerned; provided that overall variation in the diameter of such drums of not more than 3mm shall be permissible. Modifications to brakes are limited to the freedom to fit alternative calipers of a type available pre-1965. Dual circuit braking systems are permitted, as is installation of power brake assistance. Brake lining material and hoses are free.
3.6 WHEELS AND TYRES: the wheels shall be either as supplied by the manufacturer or of a type approved by CAMS and which is in harmony with wheels used prior to 31 December 1964. At all times the original wheel diameter shall be maintained, and the width of the rim may be increased by not more than 1" over the original, subject to an absolute maximum width of 6". Aluminium alloy type wheels may be fitted, but only of a design and style available prior to 31 December 1964. Mudguard (fender) flares or extensions are not permitted unless they were fitted as original equipment by the manufacturer.
Tyres may not protrude outside the bodywork, but otherwise track is free.
Tyres must be of an approved type of radial or cross-ply construction with a minimum aspect ratio of 60 percent as determined by the Tyre and Rim Association.
There are other items relating to safety, fitment of laminated windscreens, foam filling fuel tanks, general compliance with vehicle regulations of the CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport), presentation, advertisinig etc. Some that matter:
5.4 At all times, the onus of proof of eligibility of the vehicle and/or components whether options or not, will be the responsibility of the owner, by way of homologation papers, parts manuals, workshop manuals etc.
In marginal cases, proof may be required to be produced to the effect that a vehicle of the same model was produced prior to 31 December 1964.
7. SPIRIT OF REGULATIONS
It is emphasised that the purpose of this category of racing is to emulate, as far as is practicable, racing of touring cars under Appendix J regulations which were current until 31 December 1964. Under the spirit of these regulations, over-restoration of vehicles, including the use of technology, parts or equipment not available within the period in question, are not acceptable and will render the vehicle ineligible. the Historic Eligibility Committee will interpret these regulations and determine any eligibility matters relating thereto in accordance with this spirit.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Some rules in there will be very different to the types of rules you might be used to. 'Removal of metal' allows for porting, for instance, but note that valves are not restricted. So we can enlarge the ports and fit bigger valves. It doesn't mention manifolds as being among those things that must be 'original type'... these and cranks and rods are free. Sumps are free, and while dry sump systems are prohibited, oil coolers are allowed. Gear ratios are free, but must be within the original housings. Same with the rear end... axle shafts are free, the housing may be modified, but it must remain the original housing.
Options are allowed as long as the parts manuals etc list them.
Apparently an 'aluminum' front bumper was a drag racing option. Anyone got one of them they don't want?
No, the rules say the engine has to be what was sold in that model. Shame about that weigh penalty... but we have to play by the rules we've got. The LA engine didn't come out in that size until a few years later.
Bored to 4" it will net 332ci. or 5.44 litres. That's not insignificant.
As for the 'almost hemi' comment, the valve layout of the Poly is very similar to a lot of Japanese and European engines built today. The offset lie of the valves makes it possible to include in the 'almost hemi' chamber design both a squish area and a spark plug that comes out the side of the head rather than the top.
Obviously, the true Hemi uses a central plug position and that creates production problems. This issue is attacked in slightly different ways in Daimler, Chrysler, Renault Gordini, Peugeot and other engines with pushrod valve actuation, and still more ways in the narrow angle DOHC cam engines that abound today. It seems to me that the reduced complication of an extra rocker shaft and this provision of central plug location was the reason Chrysler went to this design.
That said, the breathing potential of the head is very good. Not exploited greatly by the hot rodding people because they went for the earlier Hemi, the availability of things such as inlet manifolds is lower for these than most engines. I imagine NASCAR focussed on the big blocks, so the Poly got scant attention.
Regarding the term 'Hemi' and your comment about Australian usage of it...
The venerable Slant 6 was produced here until about 1968. Then Chrysler Australia introduced a vertical inline 6 to replace it, a lighter engine that I understand is very robust. It came in 215, 245 and 265 cubic inch capacities, the upper two in a variety of stages of tune including the triple-DCOE Weber version with which they tried to take out the Bathurst race.
I have never seen the combustion chamber of this engine, but I suspect it might be just like a Poly, with valve angling achieved in the more modern way with spherical pivots for the rockers.
I don't know if this engine was made anywhere else in the world... it seems from your comment that it wasn't.
FWIW, these are the rules:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Group Nb is... a group for series production type touring cars, manufactured prior to 31 December 1964. The group recognises models or components homologated for competition by the manufacturer, however at least 100 examples of a particular model must have been produced for the vehicle to be eligible.
1. ELIGIBILITY
1.1 Series production type touring cars manufactured prior to d1 December 1964, of which 100 of the particular model must have been produced.
1.2 Classes
...Class A1... Over 4500cc
2. BODY
2.1 The body must be of a touring hard-top form and must provide adequate normal seating accomodation for four or more adults.
2.2 ... relates only to smallest classes
2.3 The bodywork, body fittings and interior trim in its entirety must be as supplied by the manufacturer except only that the wheel nave plates (hub caps!) must be removed, additional instruments fitted and steering wheel replaced: provided that the replacement wheel is not less than 330mm in diameter (etc relating to steering wheel size - not relevant here)
2.4 The use of undertrays, fairings etc, designed to improve the aerodynamic form of the automobile shall not be permissible unless supplied as standard equipment.
2.5 The original rear seats must be retained in all respects, including location. The driver's seat may be replaced with a CAMS-approved driving seat. The original passenger seat must remain in place... must be trimmed in the same, matching or complimentary colours as other trim on the vehicle.
On vehicles fitted with a bench front seat as original equipment, the whole seat may be removed, and the passenger seat must be a bucket seat from a comparable model. If the original equipment bench seat is retained, modification of the driver's portion of that seat is free so long as the oriign of the seat may be determined.
2.6 Restoration of original trim is permitted, but should be as near as practicable to original specifications. Floor coverings may be removed. Insulating material may be added.
3. PERMITTED MODIFICATIONS
Mechanical modifications may be made, provided that the following restrictions are observed:
3.1 ENGINE: The original type of cylinder block and crankcase must be employed. the bore may be varied and/or the stroke reduced provided that the swept volume of the engine remains within the same cubic capacity class as that within which the engine came as supplied by the manufacturer.
The original type of cylinder-head casting must be employed. the cylinder-head may be modified provided that such modification is effected only by removal of metal.
A dry sump is not permitted unless fitted as original equipment on the make and model of the vehicle of the period.
The radiator cooling fan may be be removed; electrically powered fans are permitted.
3.2 INDUCTION: Forced induction or fuel injection is not permitted, unless such induction method was employed as standard on the make and model of vehicle by the vehicle manufacturer concerned.
Later models of carburettors which were available in the period are acceptable, even with different throat sizes, provided that the outward appearance is the same. Carburettors of a make not available in the period are unacceptable.
3.3 TRANSMISSION: The original type of gearbox and final drive assemblies including housings as supplied by the manufacturer for the make and model concerned shall be employed. the final drive assembly is otherwise free, save that the original housing must be retained (although it may be subject to any machining operations provided always that its origin is able to be established).
The number of gear ratios may not be changed.
3.4 SUSPENSION: The original form and type of suspension only shall be employed (eg. a semi-eliptic leaf-spring suspended live rear axle may not be replaced by a coil-spring suspended de Dion type and so on).
At all times, the original form of steering and suspension joints must be employed, and in particular may not be replaced by spherical or 'Rose' type joints.
3.5BRAKES: the original form and type of brake system shall be employed (eg. drum brakes may not be replaced by disc brakes). The major brake dimensions (ie. internal drum diameter and width) shall be identical with the dimensions of these components as supplied as original equipment by the manufacturer concerned; provided that overall variation in the diameter of such drums of not more than 3mm shall be permissible. Modifications to brakes are limited to the freedom to fit alternative calipers of a type available pre-1965. Dual circuit braking systems are permitted, as is installation of power brake assistance. Brake lining material and hoses are free.
3.6 WHEELS AND TYRES: the wheels shall be either as supplied by the manufacturer or of a type approved by CAMS and which is in harmony with wheels used prior to 31 December 1964. At all times the original wheel diameter shall be maintained, and the width of the rim may be increased by not more than 1" over the original, subject to an absolute maximum width of 6". Aluminium alloy type wheels may be fitted, but only of a design and style available prior to 31 December 1964. Mudguard (fender) flares or extensions are not permitted unless they were fitted as original equipment by the manufacturer.
Tyres may not protrude outside the bodywork, but otherwise track is free.
Tyres must be of an approved type of radial or cross-ply construction with a minimum aspect ratio of 60 percent as determined by the Tyre and Rim Association.
There are other items relating to safety, fitment of laminated windscreens, foam filling fuel tanks, general compliance with vehicle regulations of the CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport), presentation, advertisinig etc. Some that matter:
5.4 At all times, the onus of proof of eligibility of the vehicle and/or components whether options or not, will be the responsibility of the owner, by way of homologation papers, parts manuals, workshop manuals etc.
In marginal cases, proof may be required to be produced to the effect that a vehicle of the same model was produced prior to 31 December 1964.
7. SPIRIT OF REGULATIONS
It is emphasised that the purpose of this category of racing is to emulate, as far as is practicable, racing of touring cars under Appendix J regulations which were current until 31 December 1964. Under the spirit of these regulations, over-restoration of vehicles, including the use of technology, parts or equipment not available within the period in question, are not acceptable and will render the vehicle ineligible. the Historic Eligibility Committee will interpret these regulations and determine any eligibility matters relating thereto in accordance with this spirit.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Some rules in there will be very different to the types of rules you might be used to. 'Removal of metal' allows for porting, for instance, but note that valves are not restricted. So we can enlarge the ports and fit bigger valves. It doesn't mention manifolds as being among those things that must be 'original type'... these and cranks and rods are free. Sumps are free, and while dry sump systems are prohibited, oil coolers are allowed. Gear ratios are free, but must be within the original housings. Same with the rear end... axle shafts are free, the housing may be modified, but it must remain the original housing.
Options are allowed as long as the parts manuals etc list them.
Apparently an 'aluminum' front bumper was a drag racing option. Anyone got one of them they don't want?
Originally posted by Todd
Ray,
Assuming you were responding to me, I wasn't suggesting you install a big block. The 340 was the hottest small block Chrysler offered the public here, particularly the ones used in the AAR Cuda and Challenger T/A. The 361 was never a high performance engine. There were some impressive 383s, but they came a bit later.
I'm not sure the A series 318 can be called an almost Hemi, but considering that wedge slant-6s were called Hemis in Australia, I suppose you may have a different perspective. If it is possible, I would recommend converting to an LA series pure wedge anyway. They weigh 55 lbs less and have infinite tuning potential.
If you haven't already seen it, this site has plenty of information.
Ray,
Assuming you were responding to me, I wasn't suggesting you install a big block. The 340 was the hottest small block Chrysler offered the public here, particularly the ones used in the AAR Cuda and Challenger T/A. The 361 was never a high performance engine. There were some impressive 383s, but they came a bit later.
I'm not sure the A series 318 can be called an almost Hemi, but considering that wedge slant-6s were called Hemis in Australia, I suppose you may have a different perspective. If it is possible, I would recommend converting to an LA series pure wedge anyway. They weigh 55 lbs less and have infinite tuning potential.
If you haven't already seen it, this site has plenty of information.
The 340 and 360 ci v8 was offered in Australia also, but in later model Chargers. Of the two the 340 was the engine to have, it was offered only with an automatic but quickly gained a reputation for being a fantastic small block.
That Charger, of course, was a Valiant derivative...
And incidentally, there has never been a V8 Mopar passenger car sold in Australia with a manual gearbox.
And incidentally, there has never been a V8 Mopar passenger car sold in Australia with a manual gearbox.
Originally posted by Ray Bell
That Charger, of course, was a Valiant derivative...
And incidentally, there has never been a V8 Mopar passenger car sold in Australia with a manual gearbox.
That Charger, of course, was a Valiant derivative...
And incidentally, there has never been a V8 Mopar passenger car sold in Australia with a manual gearbox.
318 4 speed CL Charger "Drifter Pack"?
There was one?
Bet they didn't sell many...
My main point, however, was to point out that Todd was talking (as I am) about 'full bodied' cars, not 'compacts' like the Valiant and Australian Charger.
Bet they didn't sell many...
My main point, however, was to point out that Todd was talking (as I am) about 'full bodied' cars, not 'compacts' like the Valiant and Australian Charger.
For those who have not got the point yet, the engine is a 318 poly not a 318 a series.
It is not related to the A series 318/340/360 engines.
The 318 poly is a much bigger engine.
It is not related to the A series 318/340/360 engines.
The 318 poly is a much bigger engine.
Originally posted by Catalina Park
For those who have not got the point yet, the engine is a 318 poly not a 318 a series.
It is not related to the A series 318/340/360 engines.
The 318 poly is a much bigger engine.
For those who have not got the point yet, the engine is a 318 poly not a 318 a series.
It is not related to the A series 318/340/360 engines.
The 318 poly is a much bigger engine.
Take a look at allpar.com. You'll find that the 318 poly is the 318 A series. The later "small block 318" was called the LA series. It is possible that people who focus on US Mopar performance offerings of the '60s have taken to using A for all small blocks, but the actual designation of A only applied to the polys.
Originally posted by ScudBoy
The 340 and 360 ci v8 was offered in Australia also, but in later model Chargers. Of the two the 340 was the engine to have, it was offered only with an automatic but quickly gained a reputation for being a fantastic small block.
The 340 and 360 ci v8 was offered in Australia also, but in later model Chargers. Of the two the 340 was the engine to have, it was offered only with an automatic but quickly gained a reputation for being a fantastic small block.
Interesting. 340s were the best here because they reached production before compression ratios dropped massively as unleaded fuel was being forced on us accompanied by primitive emmissions reduction gear that sapped any remaining efficiency out of engines sold to the public. Had lead stayed in our fuel and the government off our backs, the 360 probably would have been an improvement on the 340. I wonder why Australians didn't get the free breathing, high compression 360 that could have been made in a different regulatory environment.
So what do you reckon, Todd?
Is that hood worth $US3500? Would spending $AU5,500 or so on that be reflected accordingly in lap times?
Is that hood worth $US3500? Would spending $AU5,500 or so on that be reflected accordingly in lap times?
If your budget is unlimited, then sure. If it isn't, then spending the money on the engine is bound to yield a greater return. If your budget is somewhere in the middle, you could always lay up a fiberglass hood. Does the aluminum one really comply with regulation 2.3? How about acid dipping the shell?
Originally posted by Todd
Does the aluminum one really comply with regulation 2.3? How about acid dipping the shell?
Does the aluminum one really comply with regulation 2.3? How about acid dipping the shell?
Todd, shhhhhhhhhhhhh
Options are allowed, even options that were purely for racing...
Note that in 5.4 it says that workshop manuals and parts manuals "etc" are taken into account?
In fact, because I think it was the NHRA is/was affiliated with ACCUS and then the FIA, these lightweight panels would actually be homologated. Fibreglass, therefore, would be out.
Frankly, I think the benefits would be small, but they certainly would be there. I would expect that an alloy bumper bar would do more... save more weight, and weight that's further forward. I'd like to know what thickness the aluminium was in that bar.
Acid dipping the shell wouldn't be allowed, for sure. Of course, some might do it on the basis that they 'had to get it clean to start their restoration project' and wink, but the after effects of acid dipping are that the thing would be prone to greater rust problems. Apart from that, as far as I know there are no acid baths in Australia big enough. I may be wrong, but I believe that's why Allan Moffat's Falcon was sent to the States in '74 for 'preparation'...
One area where we might have a win is the windscreen... it seems that it's only got a toughened glass screen at the moment and I think Ben might just find it's hard to get a laminated one if he hunts around the shops near his home. I used to cut Lexan screens years ago, it's not impossible... that would be probably as big a weight save as the bonnet... er, hood.
Yes, you're right, that money is better spent on the engine. We've been talking and one of the things Ben has agreed on is that he should go to the expense of forged pistons. He wants to build an engine that he car race hard... and sometimes drive on the road... and not touch for at least 10,000 miles. Another stated aim is that he wants to finish every race.
He's no fool when it comes to building engines. For four years he's been building them for racing HQ Holdens, he actually does them for other people, and more keep coming to him, so he must be either too cheap or does a good job. I think it's both.
He's also amassed a lot of head reco gear... valve facing machine, seat cutting gear, a mill, a kit that bores and fits valve guides with bronze liners, and I mentioned (I think) that a friend of his has almost finished building a flow bench. Ben's talking about finishing that off for him so he can use it.
Of course, all of this stuff is giving him sideline work (his normal work is 3pm to 11pm) to do each morning to help pay for the whole project.
By the way, I saw on eBay a manifold that was interesting... though I can't find it again!
It was a 'crossover ram' with a plenum and the ram length gained by running the left bank tracts from the right side of the plenum and vice versa. The beauty of this is the flexibility it gives with carburettors... I'm sure it could readily be modified so that a variety of types could go on there... either a pair of Holleys on top, or three 2-barrels, or even side draught Webers hanging off both sides... perhaps SUs? Does anyone know if Quadrajets were around in '64? And how good are they under racing conditions... Ben has some of them and has a fair bit of tuning experience with them.
His workshop is shared with a guy who can build the extractors, and as I mentioned my brother (who lives only 17kms from Ben's workshop) has a chassis dyno that's basically there for free. Ben also helps him with his Falcon that he races, so it's a pretty friendly arrangement.
I guess I'll be stuck with the job of finding good shocks for the thing... I'm looking at the new (what I call) inertia-block type, they seem very promising to me. And the guy who imports the brands that have them (Edelbrock and some French brand that invented the idea) has been talking to me and wants a tech story done for a magazine. This could be a bit of an opportunity for him, while I have a close contact with the Koni importers here as well.
One thing that does escape me is how to increase the front spring rate... should we desire to do so... though there is no prohibition on additional springs, and to some extent (without looking at clearances...) it might be possible to do a coil-over thing with the front shocks to put a few extra pounds/inch in there. I can see us running to the local springworks for a bit of inventive redesigning of the rear leaves. Though, again, a coil-over addition to the rear shocks would let us experiment a bit.
Sway bars are easy, brake linings will be a matter of suck it and see, and we'll have to find some alternative rear axle ratios.
So we might leave the alloy hood to someone else... I don't like the look of the scoop on top anyway!
Note that in 5.4 it says that workshop manuals and parts manuals "etc" are taken into account?
In fact, because I think it was the NHRA is/was affiliated with ACCUS and then the FIA, these lightweight panels would actually be homologated. Fibreglass, therefore, would be out.
Frankly, I think the benefits would be small, but they certainly would be there. I would expect that an alloy bumper bar would do more... save more weight, and weight that's further forward. I'd like to know what thickness the aluminium was in that bar.
Acid dipping the shell wouldn't be allowed, for sure. Of course, some might do it on the basis that they 'had to get it clean to start their restoration project' and wink, but the after effects of acid dipping are that the thing would be prone to greater rust problems. Apart from that, as far as I know there are no acid baths in Australia big enough. I may be wrong, but I believe that's why Allan Moffat's Falcon was sent to the States in '74 for 'preparation'...
One area where we might have a win is the windscreen... it seems that it's only got a toughened glass screen at the moment and I think Ben might just find it's hard to get a laminated one if he hunts around the shops near his home. I used to cut Lexan screens years ago, it's not impossible... that would be probably as big a weight save as the bonnet... er, hood.
Yes, you're right, that money is better spent on the engine. We've been talking and one of the things Ben has agreed on is that he should go to the expense of forged pistons. He wants to build an engine that he car race hard... and sometimes drive on the road... and not touch for at least 10,000 miles. Another stated aim is that he wants to finish every race.
He's no fool when it comes to building engines. For four years he's been building them for racing HQ Holdens, he actually does them for other people, and more keep coming to him, so he must be either too cheap or does a good job. I think it's both.
He's also amassed a lot of head reco gear... valve facing machine, seat cutting gear, a mill, a kit that bores and fits valve guides with bronze liners, and I mentioned (I think) that a friend of his has almost finished building a flow bench. Ben's talking about finishing that off for him so he can use it.
Of course, all of this stuff is giving him sideline work (his normal work is 3pm to 11pm) to do each morning to help pay for the whole project.
By the way, I saw on eBay a manifold that was interesting... though I can't find it again!
It was a 'crossover ram' with a plenum and the ram length gained by running the left bank tracts from the right side of the plenum and vice versa. The beauty of this is the flexibility it gives with carburettors... I'm sure it could readily be modified so that a variety of types could go on there... either a pair of Holleys on top, or three 2-barrels, or even side draught Webers hanging off both sides... perhaps SUs? Does anyone know if Quadrajets were around in '64? And how good are they under racing conditions... Ben has some of them and has a fair bit of tuning experience with them.
His workshop is shared with a guy who can build the extractors, and as I mentioned my brother (who lives only 17kms from Ben's workshop) has a chassis dyno that's basically there for free. Ben also helps him with his Falcon that he races, so it's a pretty friendly arrangement.
I guess I'll be stuck with the job of finding good shocks for the thing... I'm looking at the new (what I call) inertia-block type, they seem very promising to me. And the guy who imports the brands that have them (Edelbrock and some French brand that invented the idea) has been talking to me and wants a tech story done for a magazine. This could be a bit of an opportunity for him, while I have a close contact with the Koni importers here as well.
One thing that does escape me is how to increase the front spring rate... should we desire to do so... though there is no prohibition on additional springs, and to some extent (without looking at clearances...) it might be possible to do a coil-over thing with the front shocks to put a few extra pounds/inch in there. I can see us running to the local springworks for a bit of inventive redesigning of the rear leaves. Though, again, a coil-over addition to the rear shocks would let us experiment a bit.
Sway bars are easy, brake linings will be a matter of suck it and see, and we'll have to find some alternative rear axle ratios.
So we might leave the alloy hood to someone else... I don't like the look of the scoop on top anyway!
I think the "Cross Ram" intakes were only used on 413 & 426 Wedge motors and would not fit a Poly 318. They used twin Carter AFB carbs as far as I know on the stock engines in N/A.
The torsion bars you probably want are Mopar part # P5249158 .960" diameter - improved B/RB and Hemi handling - 41" long
The mounts are adjustable, so you should be able to get the ride height where you want it while retaining a pretty high spring rate.
The mounts are adjustable, so you should be able to get the ride height where you want it while retaining a pretty high spring rate.
Originally posted by Cociani
I think the "Cross Ram" intakes were only used on 413 & 426 Wedge motors and would not fit a Poly 318. They used twin Carter AFB carbs as far as I know on the stock engines in N/A.
I think the "Cross Ram" intakes were only used on 413 & 426 Wedge motors and would not fit a Poly 318. They used twin Carter AFB carbs as far as I know on the stock engines in N/A.
I'm sure the one I saw on eBay was described as being for the Poly... it made much of the fact that the carbies would still fit under the hood.
Anyway, if nothing else we could fabricate one. The workshop also has argon arc welding gear. A bit of a job, but not impossible.
Todd... thanks for that. Yes, the adjustability of ride height at the front is a very handy feature of that type of suspension.
Ray,
For even bigger bars, check out this site: South East R/T
They have the ones I mentioned above, and they also have torsion bars for road and oval racing.
For even bigger bars, check out this site: South East R/T
They have the ones I mentioned above, and they also have torsion bars for road and oval racing.
Thanks Todd... that's good information.
Ray, I have found a 318 poly truck engine and he says he has the bellhousing! It was pulled out of a truck recently.
They are different, but it might be usable somehow...
What's happening with the engine? And what year is it?
What's happening with the engine? And what year is it?
Turns out this is the same engine I looked at about two months, maybe three months ago...
Leave it up to Catalina Park to suss out a good deal on it... but in the menatime 275 has to check out the one he mentioned next week.
Ben is busy building a bunch of new season engines for HQ racing... so he's tied up... and we missed a Lakewood scattershield on e-bay. But there's plenty of time.
Leave it up to Catalina Park to suss out a good deal on it... but in the menatime 275 has to check out the one he mentioned next week.
Ben is busy building a bunch of new season engines for HQ racing... so he's tied up... and we missed a Lakewood scattershield on e-bay. But there's plenty of time.
If you need a paint scheme for the car, might I suggest a tribute to Bobby Isaac's 1964 Dodge?
photo
better photos
I notice that the second set of photos label the car as being David Pearson's while the caption for the first says it is Bobby Isaac's. I don't know the complete history, but I guess they both drove for Cotton Owens that season. I think the cars raced with "405 hp" in block letters on either side of the hood, but Cotton Owens concedes that the Hemis raced with 650 hp even in 1964. I'd love to see what they could do with current levels of development.
photo
better photos
I notice that the second set of photos label the car as being David Pearson's while the caption for the first says it is Bobby Isaac's. I don't know the complete history, but I guess they both drove for Cotton Owens that season. I think the cars raced with "405 hp" in block letters on either side of the hood, but Cotton Owens concedes that the Hemis raced with 650 hp even in 1964. I'd love to see what they could do with current levels of development.
Indeed, it's amazing what flow benches have brought, though engine management systems have done even more...
Cotton Owens has apparently got an article about this rebuild in this month's Mopar Collectors Guide which touches on the brakes. Any idea how we can get that article?
Thanks for the link, good view of the brakes under construction there, which is something we really needed. There's a contact e.mail for Cotton Owens too, I'll try that!
Oh... one picture on the home page shows '405 C.I.' on the car...
Cotton Owens has apparently got an article about this rebuild in this month's Mopar Collectors Guide which touches on the brakes. Any idea how we can get that article?
Thanks for the link, good view of the brakes under construction there, which is something we really needed. There's a contact e.mail for Cotton Owens too, I'll try that!
Oh... one picture on the home page shows '405 C.I.' on the car...
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