Very good Macca.Originally posted by Macca
Is it Jos Schurgers? He won a 125cc GP on a Bridgestone.
Paul M
Suppose it's now your turn to challenge us.
Photo from http://www.classic-m...i_classics.html where more classic bikes can be seen
Dick
Motorcycle racing; 1969-1990 nostalgia 1
Started by
Paul Rochdale
, Jan 06 2005 23:36
15100 replies to this topic
#201
dewittereus
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Posted 07 February 2005 - 16:19
Suppose it's now your turn to challenge us.
Photo from http://www.classic-m...i_classics.html where more classic bikes can be seen
Dick
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#202
Macca
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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:32
That was difficult; I started with an obscure type of bike and worked backwards!
To be honest, I don't remember him in F750 in 1977, although that was the year I really got keen on bikes - in particular, it was the beautiful Yamaha OW31 and OW35 with their properly-streamlined fairings that hooked me, and I felt some empathy with Steve Baker as a fellow-spectacles-wearer!
http://www.mcnews.co...R_OW35_800p.jpg
I'll try to post a pic later today.
Paul
To be honest, I don't remember him in F750 in 1977, although that was the year I really got keen on bikes - in particular, it was the beautiful Yamaha OW31 and OW35 with their properly-streamlined fairings that hooked me, and I felt some empathy with Steve Baker as a fellow-spectacles-wearer!
http://www.mcnews.co...R_OW35_800p.jpg
I'll try to post a pic later today.
Paul
#203
Macca
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Posted 08 February 2005 - 14:09
This one might be harder than my previous ones. It's a young rider in a club meeting early in his career; he had started as a mechanic, and ended up riding in GPs, even standing-in for a multiple GP world champion. He is now more successful as a manager of other riders than arguably he was himself.
Paul
#204
Macca
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Posted 08 February 2005 - 18:11
The Padgett family: Peter, Clive (career ended by arm injuries) and Gary (died in a road crash) - one of the loyalist supporters of motorcycle road racing in Britain, reponsible for furthering the careers of many champions.
Paul
Paul
#205
llmaurice
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Posted 08 February 2005 - 19:02
Clive still runs the racing side of the business but now has a team of diesels ! (CBR6000rr) supersport bikes with the demise of 250 in UK .
#206
llmaurice
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Posted 08 February 2005 - 21:20
Wouldn't be Burnett would it ?
#207
Macca
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Posted 09 February 2005 - 13:15
Damn!!!!! Gave away too many clues!
OK...............so...........circuit? type of bike? approximate year?
Paul
OK...............so...........circuit? type of bike? approximate year?
Paul
#208
Santi
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Posted 10 February 2005 - 10:06
Uhmmm... it looks like an ex RAF airfield maybe in mid 70's... Thruxton 1977 ??
Kawa H3??
Kawa H3??
#209
Macca
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Posted 10 February 2005 - 14:01
What I want to know, Ilmaurice, is whether it was one of my clues that gave it away, and if so, which?
Or is it the Roger Marshall-replica helmet he wore in those days, in tribute to the guy he'd been mechanic for and for a while was team-mate to?
Santi,
(is that for Herrero, BTW?) It is an airfield, one of several that club used in those days, but not Thruxton; and it's a bit later in time and not an H3 - I think you can see the number-plate colour, which might give a clue.
Paul M
Or is it the Roger Marshall-replica helmet he wore in those days, in tribute to the guy he'd been mechanic for and for a while was team-mate to?
Santi,
(is that for Herrero, BTW?) It is an airfield, one of several that club used in those days, but not Thruxton; and it's a bit later in time and not an H3 - I think you can see the number-plate colour, which might give a clue.
Paul M
#210
llmaurice
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Posted 10 February 2005 - 18:00
RE-Roger Burnett . It was the "Reg" (Roger Marshall) helmet plus him assisting as mechanic then on to management (he's always involved in the Teenies Academy these days)
Very good rider in the days when things were a bit easier to get hold of (3 cylinder Hondas and the like for British Championships etc. )
Incidentally ,Roger Marshalls son Adam rode a 250 for a couple of years in the British ('99-2000)
whilst his Dad managed a Brit. S/Bike team .
Strange sponsorship Burnett had didn't he - Men Only Salon.
Like the thread and hope it can keep going !
Very good rider in the days when things were a bit easier to get hold of (3 cylinder Hondas and the like for British Championships etc. )
Incidentally ,Roger Marshalls son Adam rode a 250 for a couple of years in the British ('99-2000)
whilst his Dad managed a Brit. S/Bike team .
Strange sponsorship Burnett had didn't he - Men Only Salon.
Like the thread and hope it can keep going !
#211
Macca
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Posted 10 February 2005 - 18:16
Ah yes, old 'Fruit-&-Veg Reg' - and Burnett is now manager to James Toseland and is/was to Neil Hodgson.
In 1984 he was riding a Suzuki RG500 in British 500s, and when Barry Sheene had an operation to remove the pins from his legs before the end of the season, he lent Burnett his works XR for the Powerbike meeting at Brands in October.
Then he rode a 1986 ex-Spencer Honda NSR500 in the 1987 Gps......and then rode Mick Doohan's NSR500 at Donington in 1989 when Doohan was injured..............so that's three multiple champions he subbed for!
So what bike and when in my pic?
Paul
In 1984 he was riding a Suzuki RG500 in British 500s, and when Barry Sheene had an operation to remove the pins from his legs before the end of the season, he lent Burnett his works XR for the Powerbike meeting at Brands in October.
Then he rode a 1986 ex-Spencer Honda NSR500 in the 1987 Gps......and then rode Mick Doohan's NSR500 at Donington in 1989 when Doohan was injured..............so that's three multiple champions he subbed for!
So what bike and when in my pic?
Paul
#212
dewittereus
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Posted 12 February 2005 - 21:16
Originally posted by Santi
Uhmmm... it looks like an ex RAF airfield maybe in mid 70's... Thruxton 1977 ??
Kawa H3??
Ir must be Snetterton (Norfolk) , 96th BG equipped with B-17 was stationed there. Nowadays I visit more airshows then m/c races.
My favorite plane: NA Mustang P-51, this 1943 design still looks great. Flew once with it - as a pasenger allowed to touch the dual controls - an unforgettable experience.
Could it be Burnett on an ( a strange looking) RG500 ?
Dick
Holland
#213
Santi
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Posted 12 February 2005 - 22:53
According to the plates it's a 250cc, and... it uses a cantilever rear suspension so... Yam TZ??...mmm... could be, but the muffler should pass under the bike then. I thing only kawas had it there up, but works KR's shouldn't be available to a private club racer in that time (1979?)
I'm pissed now.
I'm pissed now.
#214
llmaurice
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Posted 13 February 2005 - 09:33
Rotax power -Armstrong/CCM/EMC ?
#215
dewittereus
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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:05
A Sparton ? (3 cyl 500cc based on Suzuki 380cc) Seems there were also 350cc Spartons
#216
Macca
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Posted 14 February 2005 - 13:30
Ilmaurice - you've got the right engine.
It is a Spondon/Rotax 250, and you might notice from the colour scheme that it was entered by George Beale, long-time sponsor of Roger Marshall among many.
As to where - Colerne airfield. WHERE??? I hear you all say! In the 1980s the nearest club racing to me was held by the North Gloucester M/C Racing Club - nowadays all their meetings are at proper circuits, but then they usually had only one 'circuit' meeting a year, at Thruxton, and the rest were held on disused RAF airfields........Keevil, Hullavington, Wroughton and Colerne.
Colerne is near Bath and is apparently now occupied by a British army unit, and is still used for car sprint meetings.
But WHEN - ahhh.........now you're asking. I've thrown out or sold off most of my bike racing records and programmes, but I'm fairly sure it was 1982, because ISTR riding there on my brand-new Suzuki 250X7.
So over to you, Ilmaurice.
Paul
It is a Spondon/Rotax 250, and you might notice from the colour scheme that it was entered by George Beale, long-time sponsor of Roger Marshall among many.
As to where - Colerne airfield. WHERE??? I hear you all say! In the 1980s the nearest club racing to me was held by the North Gloucester M/C Racing Club - nowadays all their meetings are at proper circuits, but then they usually had only one 'circuit' meeting a year, at Thruxton, and the rest were held on disused RAF airfields........Keevil, Hullavington, Wroughton and Colerne.
Colerne is near Bath and is apparently now occupied by a British army unit, and is still used for car sprint meetings.
But WHEN - ahhh.........now you're asking. I've thrown out or sold off most of my bike racing records and programmes, but I'm fairly sure it was 1982, because ISTR riding there on my brand-new Suzuki 250X7.
So over to you, Ilmaurice.
Paul
#217
Santi
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Posted 14 February 2005 - 14:43
Wow, Macca it was a difficult one... at least for me. 
Absolutely correct.
Originally posted by Macca
...Santi,
(is that for Herrero, BTW?) ...
Paul M
Absolutely correct.
#218
llmaurice
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Posted 14 February 2005 - 19:16
They still race at Colerne todate . X7 eh Macca . "We " won the Avon 250 production series with our H & S X7 in ,79 I think , plus on the H & S GS1000 Mick James also won the 1000 proddy series .
Good days they were . We then went F1 with Manships old factory Dunstall Suzuki but Joey wiped Mike out at the approach to Cadwell Mountain in the Championship race .
Still at it with another rider now and RS250 Gp Honda . So exciting these bikes , can't leave them alone .
Good days they were . We then went F1 with Manships old factory Dunstall Suzuki but Joey wiped Mike out at the approach to Cadwell Mountain in the Championship race .
Still at it with another rider now and RS250 Gp Honda . So exciting these bikes , can't leave them alone .
#219
Santi
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Posted 15 February 2005 - 18:14
So, Ilmaurice. It's your turn, isn't it?
We wanna try again.
We wanna try again.
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#220
llmaurice
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 09:58
Plenty of thoughts . I just need a photo to send !
#221
philippe7
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Posted 21 February 2005 - 08:49
Hey Hey, My My.....I go abroad for a week and this thread falls back to the third page !!!!
So, another old pic of mine ......Who is this heavy braker, Where , When , and What is he riding ? ( and Why is it original ? )
So, another old pic of mine ......Who is this heavy braker, Where , When , and What is he riding ? ( and Why is it original ? )
#222
T54
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Posted 21 February 2005 - 14:28
Could he be Japanese by any chance?
#223
philippe7
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Posted 21 February 2005 - 14:43
Originally posted by T54
Could he be Japanese by any chance?
Nice to see you back around here T-54
Are you mentioning the guy's nationality on purpose ? Because, as it happens, it just springs to my mind that the "real" nationality of the man is in fact subject to some degree of controversy.....although his licence and the nationality under which he was awarded his World Title ( here I am , giving hints away ....) is indeed Japanese, I have often read that he in fact originated ( and privately prouded himself about it ) from a former "colony" of the old empire of the rising sun ...
#225
dewittereus
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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:19
Who: Katayama
where/when: Paul Ricard Bol d'or 1978 (not 79 because he was riding the Honda that year)
what: a TZ750D or E (often called OW31, but this designation was for worksbikes only, a visual difference: the exhausts).
The TZ750D (1977) or E(1978) has been modified for this race .
Why original: what do mean Phillipe by "original" If you mean unusual, a long distance version of a TZ750 was somewhat unusual
There is a nice article in a MotoJournal 1979 issue about the modifications carried out on the Gauloises bike (such as kickstarter oin the clutch) ridden by Sarron/Pons and Roche/Rigal
PS
http://jumpingjack.nl/index.htm
A VY GOOD SITE ON JACK MIDDELBURG WITH LOTS OF PHOTOS
where/when: Paul Ricard Bol d'or 1978 (not 79 because he was riding the Honda that year)
what: a TZ750D or E (often called OW31, but this designation was for worksbikes only, a visual difference: the exhausts).
The TZ750D (1977) or E(1978) has been modified for this race .
Why original: what do mean Phillipe by "original" If you mean unusual, a long distance version of a TZ750 was somewhat unusual
There is a nice article in a MotoJournal 1979 issue about the modifications carried out on the Gauloises bike (such as kickstarter oin the clutch) ridden by Sarron/Pons and Roche/Rigal
PS
http://jumpingjack.nl/index.htm
A VY GOOD SITE ON JACK MIDDELBURG WITH LOTS OF PHOTOS
#226
philippe7
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Posted 22 February 2005 - 14:42
OK, Eugen and Dick are close enough
It is indeed Takazumi Katayama , aboard the 750 Yamaha TZ D he shared with double-Bol d'Or winner Roger Ruiz at the 1977 Bol d'Or , the last one to be held at the Bugatti circuit at Le Mans .
I took this picture under braking for the Chapelle hairpin, where the "short" circuit leaves the "long" one before the Tertre Rouge esses.
The first ever (crazy) attempt to run the Bol d'Or on a pure racer like the TZ750 had been staged the year before by Pat Evans and Jean-Paul Boinet, as has been mentioned in another thread (see T54's post http://forums.atlasf...758#post1893758 ) .
In 1977 , the idea was far more popular , and no less than six 750 TZ's were entered for the race , for Katayama-Ruiz, Boinet-Soussan, Le Liard-Husson, Bourgeois-Tchernine, Renaudat-Guilleux and Vial-Guilet. But although some were well prepared, they were mostly there for the pole-hunt and the early race show , although some lasted quite long....I remember standing quite late at night at the start of the pit straight, where Gilles Husson was pulling wheelies lap after lap to the delight of the cheering crowd , until after a while, we saw his headlights arriving in the curve at a very unusual , and way too low , altitude......to the noise of screeching metal on the tarmac....
Of course, in 78 at Paul-Ricard there was a much better prepared single-bike official effort by the Sonauto-Gauloises team, when Sarron and Pons led until retiring late Sunday morning , and in 1979 a full three-bikes effort which ended up in a second place.
So yes, a TZ750 racer in a long distance race was somehow "original".....but I was rather thinking it "original" than in those days , a Grand Prix Superstar ( and newly crowned World Champion ) like Takazumi Katayama would not hesitate to join in a modest private effort to run a long and tiring Bol d'Or, just for the sake of fun , friendship, and respect of the public ( no, the monies at stake, if any, cannot have been a factor...) . Although Moto Gp riders have fortunately not quite reached the level of hyper-specialisation of their 4-wheel colleagues, could we dream of seeing Messrs Rossi, Biaggi or Hayden on a private bike at the next Bol d'Or ? Mmmhhh...
And finally : Takazumi Katayama was , I have often read , born in Japan from immigrated Korean parents, and either kept his Korean nationality and ran a Japanese licence, or took the Japanese nationality at a later stage.....anybody having reliable info about that ?
It is indeed Takazumi Katayama , aboard the 750 Yamaha TZ D he shared with double-Bol d'Or winner Roger Ruiz at the 1977 Bol d'Or , the last one to be held at the Bugatti circuit at Le Mans .
I took this picture under braking for the Chapelle hairpin, where the "short" circuit leaves the "long" one before the Tertre Rouge esses.
The first ever (crazy) attempt to run the Bol d'Or on a pure racer like the TZ750 had been staged the year before by Pat Evans and Jean-Paul Boinet, as has been mentioned in another thread (see T54's post http://forums.atlasf...758#post1893758 ) .
In 1977 , the idea was far more popular , and no less than six 750 TZ's were entered for the race , for Katayama-Ruiz, Boinet-Soussan, Le Liard-Husson, Bourgeois-Tchernine, Renaudat-Guilleux and Vial-Guilet. But although some were well prepared, they were mostly there for the pole-hunt and the early race show , although some lasted quite long....I remember standing quite late at night at the start of the pit straight, where Gilles Husson was pulling wheelies lap after lap to the delight of the cheering crowd , until after a while, we saw his headlights arriving in the curve at a very unusual , and way too low , altitude......to the noise of screeching metal on the tarmac....
Of course, in 78 at Paul-Ricard there was a much better prepared single-bike official effort by the Sonauto-Gauloises team, when Sarron and Pons led until retiring late Sunday morning , and in 1979 a full three-bikes effort which ended up in a second place.
So yes, a TZ750 racer in a long distance race was somehow "original".....but I was rather thinking it "original" than in those days , a Grand Prix Superstar ( and newly crowned World Champion ) like Takazumi Katayama would not hesitate to join in a modest private effort to run a long and tiring Bol d'Or, just for the sake of fun , friendship, and respect of the public ( no, the monies at stake, if any, cannot have been a factor...) . Although Moto Gp riders have fortunately not quite reached the level of hyper-specialisation of their 4-wheel colleagues, could we dream of seeing Messrs Rossi, Biaggi or Hayden on a private bike at the next Bol d'Or ? Mmmhhh...
And finally : Takazumi Katayama was , I have often read , born in Japan from immigrated Korean parents, and either kept his Korean nationality and ran a Japanese licence, or took the Japanese nationality at a later stage.....anybody having reliable info about that ?
#227
philippe7
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 07:27
Eugen, Dick, no photo ? OK , another one of mine ....very nostalgic memory , that was the first time I ever went to see an international bike race.....and I had taken my Praktica with me !
No clues this time......Who, What, Where, When ?
No clues this time......Who, What, Where, When ?
#228
Eugen
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:56
Christian Leon, 1975, König
#229
philippe7
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:56
That was quick, Eugen !
This is indeed Christian Léon , on his way to winning a rain-sodden "Trophée du Million" at Magny-Cours in 1975 . He is riding a 680cc version of the König , the german bike built around a flat-4 two stroke outboard engine, which had originally been developed by the late Kim Newcombe.
That contract as a König works rider for the 1975 season was carrying high hopes for Christian Léon, who had made a promising early road racing career aboard the french importer's Kawasakis, notably finishing 4th in the 1973 French GP at Paul Ricard, behind none others than Jarno Saarinen, Phil Read, and Hidéo Kanaya. But it turned out to be a disaster, since after this promising early season win, due more to his talent than to his machinery, the König proved terribly unreliable and at the end of the season, a disenchanted Christian Léon forgot about his Grand Prix dreams and signed with Honda for Endurance racing. He promptly became the "king" of the category , winning 4 consecutive FIM Endurance titles in 76,77,78 and 79.
At the end of the 1980 season, he went looking for another challenge and secretly flew off to Japan to meet the Suzuki factory, who had proposed him to lead their World Endurance efforts for 1981. He was offered a test ride at the private Suzuki Hamamatsu test track, during which he suffered a fatal accident…
His death was made even more difficult for his family since legal matters prevented them from getting any sort of financial compensation : indeed , Christian Léon , still a full-time Honda employee, was testing a competitor's machinery in violation of his contract, and the insurance company considered that his Honda policy was not applicable and refused to pay. There actually was a charity fund organised by fellow riders and french bike magazines, in order to collect funds for his widow.
Christian had left a single son, who in the early 2000's started racing in France and showing a lot of promise. But fate sometimes seems to be set after some families, since the boy was killed in a street accident less than two years ago....
This is indeed Christian Léon , on his way to winning a rain-sodden "Trophée du Million" at Magny-Cours in 1975 . He is riding a 680cc version of the König , the german bike built around a flat-4 two stroke outboard engine, which had originally been developed by the late Kim Newcombe.
That contract as a König works rider for the 1975 season was carrying high hopes for Christian Léon, who had made a promising early road racing career aboard the french importer's Kawasakis, notably finishing 4th in the 1973 French GP at Paul Ricard, behind none others than Jarno Saarinen, Phil Read, and Hidéo Kanaya. But it turned out to be a disaster, since after this promising early season win, due more to his talent than to his machinery, the König proved terribly unreliable and at the end of the season, a disenchanted Christian Léon forgot about his Grand Prix dreams and signed with Honda for Endurance racing. He promptly became the "king" of the category , winning 4 consecutive FIM Endurance titles in 76,77,78 and 79.
At the end of the 1980 season, he went looking for another challenge and secretly flew off to Japan to meet the Suzuki factory, who had proposed him to lead their World Endurance efforts for 1981. He was offered a test ride at the private Suzuki Hamamatsu test track, during which he suffered a fatal accident…
His death was made even more difficult for his family since legal matters prevented them from getting any sort of financial compensation : indeed , Christian Léon , still a full-time Honda employee, was testing a competitor's machinery in violation of his contract, and the insurance company considered that his Honda policy was not applicable and refused to pay. There actually was a charity fund organised by fellow riders and french bike magazines, in order to collect funds for his widow.
Christian had left a single son, who in the early 2000's started racing in France and showing a lot of promise. But fate sometimes seems to be set after some families, since the boy was killed in a street accident less than two years ago....
#230
dewittereus
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 14:00
Originally posted by philippe7
That was quick, Eugen !
His death was made even more difficult for his family since legal matters prevented them from getting any sort of financial compensation : indeed , Christian Léon , still a full-time Honda employee, was testing a competitor's machinery in violation of his contract, and the insurance company considered that his Honda policy was not applicable and refused to pay.
Apparently this HUGE m/c manufacturer did not feel any responsibility/loyalty towards Christian Leon and/or family.
Not in the same league of course as how Yamaha treated Steve Baker after the 1977 season. But still very disgraceful. Steve finished 1st in 750cc and 2nd in the 500WC. THis in his 1st full year on European circuits.
Steve heard nothing from them and had to inquire himself to learn he would not get a contract for 1978.
Somehow Mr Ippolito succeeded in keeping Johnny Cecotto - 4th in 500cc and racing in Europe since 1975 - tied to Yamaha.
-----------
Philippe: I'm trying to find a photo on the web, I have plenty myself, but the scanner has gone
#231
Macca
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 17:07
I was a big Steve Baker fan - he wiped the board in the F750 championship in 1977, but apparently that wasn't enough for Yamaha........
Cecotto had won the 350 WC in 1975, then spent 1976 being a spoilt brat, and got injured early in 1977......but then IIRC he was given the secret prototype Powervalve 500 and won a couple of 500 GPs at the end of the year, while Steve hadn't been able to win any.
And Katayama (the 'Zooming Taxi') had won the 350 WC in 1977, so he was in favour for 1978, and Kenny Roberts decided to do a full WC season; so maybe it was just a matter of sticking with three works bikes.
Paul M
Cecotto had won the 350 WC in 1975, then spent 1976 being a spoilt brat, and got injured early in 1977......but then IIRC he was given the secret prototype Powervalve 500 and won a couple of 500 GPs at the end of the year, while Steve hadn't been able to win any.
And Katayama (the 'Zooming Taxi') had won the 350 WC in 1977, so he was in favour for 1978, and Kenny Roberts decided to do a full WC season; so maybe it was just a matter of sticking with three works bikes.
Paul M
#232
Paul Rochdale
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 19:31
I'm too dim to work out how to post pictures (even when told how east it is) so may I be permitted to ask this question?
In the late 60s and early 70s, Derek Minter usually rode Ray Petty Nortons. What unusual technical feature did these bikes have?
In the late 60s and early 70s, Derek Minter usually rode Ray Petty Nortons. What unusual technical feature did these bikes have?
#233
fines
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 20:22
Indeed, he was Korean at least by ancestry; unfortunately I don't recall the particulars right now, but I know I have an article somewhere... but where? What I do recall is that he was an avid pop singer, and had at least one record published (in the days when not everybody was able to do so by means of homerecording and CD writing...)!Originally posted by philippe7
And finally : Takazumi Katayama was , I have often read , born in Japan from immigrated Korean parents, and either kept his Korean nationality and ran a Japanese licence, or took the Japanese nationality at a later stage.....anybody having reliable info about that ?
#234
fines
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Posted 24 February 2005 - 20:24
They made the rider's eyes pop out of the helmet...Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
I'm too dim to work out how to post pictures (even when told how east it is) so may I be permitted to ask this question?
In the late 60s and early 70s, Derek Minter usually rode Ray Petty Nortons. What unusual technical feature did these bikes have?
Sorry, couldn't resist!
#235
Santi
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 08:03
Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
I'm too dim to work out how to post pictures (even when told how east it is) so may I be permitted to ask this question?
In the late 60s and early 70s, Derek Minter usually rode Ray Petty Nortons. What unusual technical feature did these bikes have?
I believe he put the cylinder head back to front .
#236
Paul Rochdale
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 10:12
Spot on Santi, the Manx Norton engines had reversed cylinder heads - Amal GP carb facing forwards, exhaust straight out of the rear. I don't know if there were any significant advantages to that layout and I think it was Minter's shear ability that won him so many races.
#237
Martin Roessler
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 10:39
Hi there....
a hard one for you i recon.....
where ,who, when......what happened ?
cheers marty
a hard one for you i recon.....
where ,who, when......what happened ?
cheers marty
#238
Santi
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 12:07
Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
.... I don't know if there were any significant advantages to that layout ...
It, theorycally, allows a clearer flow of fresh air to the intake and a straight line exhaust let the burnt gas go away easier. In those earlier times the engine was not supposed to be as close to the front tyre as it is today and the extra room taken by the carb was not a problem at all.
In spite of this, nowadays, we can find something similar in the Cannondale MX (yep, motorbike, not mountain bike) with injection intake, a little bit smaller than a carb.
#239
Santi
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 12:14
About that BMW side, it looks like it has eaten too much curb and the cube of the third wheel has badly broken.
Mmmm... Opatija??? Just guessing.
Mmmm... Opatija??? Just guessing.
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#240
Paul Rochdale
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 15:20
My guess is that the BMW sidecar outfit had a fuel tank either at the rear of or part and parcel of the sidecar mudguard. The bike may have run out of fuel. The passenger appears to be tinkering with the filler cap in the first shot, but 'answering a call of nature' in the second shot, hence dark pool on road surface.
#241
philippe7
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 15:48
Funny how the same picture can be interpreted totally differently ......my immediate idea was : "that Rennsport kneeler took fire while running, and in the first picture the fellow is busy manning the fire extinguisher.....look at all the white powder spread on the track ".....
But it's indeed just a guess....
As to the place...what we see of the surroundings looks quite Nurburgring-esque to me .
......my immediate idea was : "that Rennsport kneeler took fire while running, and in the first picture the fellow is busy manning the fire extinguisher.....look at all the white powder spread on the track ".....But it's indeed just a guess....
As to the place...what we see of the surroundings looks quite Nurburgring-esque to me .
#242
Martin Roessler
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- 351 posts
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 20:32
...good guess phillipe7.....was indeed a fire and the track is nuerburgring....
who was it...and when?
cheers marty
who was it...and when?
cheers marty
#243
dewittereus
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- 103 posts
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Posted 25 February 2005 - 20:48
Helmuth Fath 1960 ? Mit ALfred Wohllgemuth (nice name for an expericence like this)
#244
Macca
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Posted 28 February 2005 - 14:45
Just to bump this back up......
your obt. svnt. at the Historic Motor Sports Show last weekend with a certain French former GP star..................
There were a lot of bikes there, and bike people - excellent!
Paul M
your obt. svnt. at the Historic Motor Sports Show last weekend with a certain French former GP star..................
There were a lot of bikes there, and bike people - excellent!
Paul M
#245
philippe7
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Posted 28 February 2005 - 17:33
Le grand Eric Saul , bien sur !
Eric's first claim to fame was a sensational podium at some British GP at Silverstone, where he finished behind Kork Ballington and Aldo Nannini on his private standard TZ . The break came a year or two later, when he replaced Randy Mamola on the works Bimota-Yamaha , I saw him leading the 1979 French GP by a country mile , before he got caught by a few drops of rain and fell...letting in the process fellow countryman Patrick Fernandez win his first Grand Prix .
The next year started as a privateer again, but when poor Olivier Chevallier lost his life at the 250 support race of the Moto-Journal 200 at Paul Ricard , his technician brother Alain Chevallier fought back his grief and his urge to quit altogether and lent Olivier's Pernod-sponsored bikes to Eric . He put that to good effect, and in the later years scored two GP victories aboard the Chevallier bikes , partnering Didier de Radigues. His first victory, at the 1981 Italian GP, went completely unnoticed due to another Frenchman, a certain François Mitterrand, scoring another kind of victory on the very same day....
Eric Saul is a nice bloke, he is still very involved in the classic bikes meetings , he is chief organiser of the International Classic Grand Prix series , and I met him quite a few times at classic track days those last years . I first went up to him saying "I never had a chance to shake your hand when you were racing , but it's easier now and I'm really honoured" or something like that, and he was really friendly and we had some nice chats afterwards.
Eric's first claim to fame was a sensational podium at some British GP at Silverstone, where he finished behind Kork Ballington and Aldo Nannini on his private standard TZ . The break came a year or two later, when he replaced Randy Mamola on the works Bimota-Yamaha , I saw him leading the 1979 French GP by a country mile , before he got caught by a few drops of rain and fell...letting in the process fellow countryman Patrick Fernandez win his first Grand Prix .
The next year started as a privateer again, but when poor Olivier Chevallier lost his life at the 250 support race of the Moto-Journal 200 at Paul Ricard , his technician brother Alain Chevallier fought back his grief and his urge to quit altogether and lent Olivier's Pernod-sponsored bikes to Eric . He put that to good effect, and in the later years scored two GP victories aboard the Chevallier bikes , partnering Didier de Radigues. His first victory, at the 1981 Italian GP, went completely unnoticed due to another Frenchman, a certain François Mitterrand, scoring another kind of victory on the very same day....
Eric Saul is a nice bloke, he is still very involved in the classic bikes meetings , he is chief organiser of the International Classic Grand Prix series , and I met him quite a few times at classic track days those last years . I first went up to him saying "I never had a chance to shake your hand when you were racing , but it's easier now and I'm really honoured" or something like that, and he was really friendly and we had some nice chats afterwards.
#246
fines
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Posted 28 February 2005 - 17:44
Another reason for the relative obscurity of his win was that he was initially disqualified after having taken part in an inpromptu rider's strike immediately before the start, giving a rare win to the Ad-Maiora of Maurizio Massimiani. I believe it took a few weeks for him to get his win back, and Ad-Maiora never improved on second...Originally posted by philippe7
His first victory, at the 1981 Italian GP, went completely unnoticed due to another Frenchman, a certain François Mitterrand, scoring another kind of victory on the very same day...
#247
philippe7
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Posted 28 February 2005 - 17:47
...and of course Eric still knows how to use a TZ(at the 2001 Coupes Moto Légende )
http://www.pierre-ga...ulBimota350.jpg
...and how to drop one , too (at the 2003 edition.... )
http://www.pierre-ga...3/SaulChute.jpg
http://www.pierre-ga.../Saulchute2.jpg
pictures courtesy of Pierre Gabriele
http://www.pierre-ga...ulBimota350.jpg
...and how to drop one , too (at the 2003 edition.... )
http://www.pierre-ga...3/SaulChute.jpg
http://www.pierre-ga.../Saulchute2.jpg
pictures courtesy of Pierre Gabriele
#248
philippe7
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Posted 28 February 2005 - 18:45
Originally posted by fines
Another reason for the relative obscurity of his win was that he was initially disqualified after having taken part in an inpromptu rider's strike immediately before the start, giving a rare win to the Ad-Maiora of Maurizio Massimiani. I believe it took a few weeks for him to get his win back, and Ad-Maiora never improved on second...
Hmmm....this does ring a faint bell, I didn't remember that but I guess you must be right Michael.
Regarding Ad-Majora, of course they never improved on that under the same name, but the very same bike did score a few wins earlier (?) under the name Morbidelli, with Pileri and Freymond, and of course later on ( maybe with a slightly improved version ) with Rossi senior.
Actually, the mix-ups of the Morbidelli/MBA/Ad Majora saga would make for an intersting subject ....any specialist cares to shed a light ?( Monsieur T54 perhaps ?
)
#249
T54
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Posted 28 February 2005 - 23:45
Sure, why not?
There is a new book out about the Morbidelli saga, written by an Italian journalist by the name of Claudio Porrozzi. It is a major re-writing of another written in 1982 after Morbidelli packed it up. I am honored that both times, Mr. Morbidelli insisted that my picture be in the books.
In 1978, I was hired by Giancarlo Morbidelli to design and build a new 250cc as the works bikes had serious handling deficiencies and could not put their 72HP down to the ground satisfactorily. They had tested several frames from Nikko Baker and Bimota, but none was any better than the original unit.
Morbidelli had seen some advanced but speculative sketches I had done for a racing program and that were later re-printed in the Yamaha International Magazine. He wanted to go full tilt and explore completely new directions, and entrusted me with the job of designing an building something entirely different.
The first thing I did was to redesign the fairing and seat to eliminate lift, which I identified as a serious problem. There we gained a large amount of top speed plus down force while cornering. This resulted in a splendid win by Pileri at Spa where he creamed the works Harleys and Yamahas, leaving them in the dust of over a minute edge at the end. Evolutions of this design lasted until the very end at Morbidelli and was used on the 350 and 500cc bikes quite successfully. We also tested for the first time and in secret, helmet spoilers. It would take nearly 12 more years for anyone to actually put them on a production helmet.
In Pesaro, I had some conversations with then 250cc world champion Mario Lega and Paolo Pileri, the former 125cc world champ, about what the bike was doing. I came back to the states and with the technical help of Hurley Wilvert, we designed and built a very unconventinal machine using a modified Earles front end with built-in anti-dive system by geometry and not hydraulics. The fuel tank was located on front of the engine with a small pump feeding a catch tank and the carbs by gravity. The rear-facing exhausts were routed under the seat. The engine weight was transfered as close to the rear tire as possible and there was a fake tank for the driver to rest over. The water radiator was located in the nose and feeding the cylinders through small diameter hoses. The new bike had a triangulated framework of 1" tubing and there was no steering column, instead, heim joints as on a racing car. All the parts were fabricated by Dave Klym of FabCar and Hurley Wilvert after hours at... the R&D department of Kawasaki, in secret of course!
The bike was assembled in Pesaro in the winter of 1978, and was tested by Valentino Rossi's father Graziano. It was fast and did exactly what it was supposed to do, I.E. not dive under braking and keep full traction as it was leaned into corners. But the front end lacked rigidity and was twitching. I had some obligations and could not stay ther any longer, so I designed a reinforcing bracing and left.
From what I gather, there was an internal dispute between Mr. Morbidelli and Rossi on one side, and the crew on the other. The crew was claiming that the problem was not a question of rigidity of the front brace but of the whole concept (I think that they felt threatened in their employment really...), while Graziano felt that he liked what he saw and wanted to pursue the experiment in the direction I had pointed.
As already, several top-level technicians had deserted to MBA, Mr. Morbidelli gave in and they built a new frame with a conventional steering column and a telescopic fork. Rossi did quite well with the bike and fought a tough battle with Kork Ballington all year, but too many falls and mechanical failures meant that Ballington won the championship, and not us.
Wanting to concentrate on the new 4-cylinder 500cc, Morbidelli then sold the 250cc program and all the spares to Ad Majora. They did not do too well with them, unable to really understand the complex engines designed by Jorg Muller and encountering lots of mechanical failure, let alone get to speed. So eventually, Giancarlo bought the bikes back and restored them for his museum, now located in the old woodworking machinery plant.
Regards,
T54
There is a new book out about the Morbidelli saga, written by an Italian journalist by the name of Claudio Porrozzi. It is a major re-writing of another written in 1982 after Morbidelli packed it up. I am honored that both times, Mr. Morbidelli insisted that my picture be in the books.
In 1978, I was hired by Giancarlo Morbidelli to design and build a new 250cc as the works bikes had serious handling deficiencies and could not put their 72HP down to the ground satisfactorily. They had tested several frames from Nikko Baker and Bimota, but none was any better than the original unit.
Morbidelli had seen some advanced but speculative sketches I had done for a racing program and that were later re-printed in the Yamaha International Magazine. He wanted to go full tilt and explore completely new directions, and entrusted me with the job of designing an building something entirely different.
The first thing I did was to redesign the fairing and seat to eliminate lift, which I identified as a serious problem. There we gained a large amount of top speed plus down force while cornering. This resulted in a splendid win by Pileri at Spa where he creamed the works Harleys and Yamahas, leaving them in the dust of over a minute edge at the end. Evolutions of this design lasted until the very end at Morbidelli and was used on the 350 and 500cc bikes quite successfully. We also tested for the first time and in secret, helmet spoilers. It would take nearly 12 more years for anyone to actually put them on a production helmet.
In Pesaro, I had some conversations with then 250cc world champion Mario Lega and Paolo Pileri, the former 125cc world champ, about what the bike was doing. I came back to the states and with the technical help of Hurley Wilvert, we designed and built a very unconventinal machine using a modified Earles front end with built-in anti-dive system by geometry and not hydraulics. The fuel tank was located on front of the engine with a small pump feeding a catch tank and the carbs by gravity. The rear-facing exhausts were routed under the seat. The engine weight was transfered as close to the rear tire as possible and there was a fake tank for the driver to rest over. The water radiator was located in the nose and feeding the cylinders through small diameter hoses. The new bike had a triangulated framework of 1" tubing and there was no steering column, instead, heim joints as on a racing car. All the parts were fabricated by Dave Klym of FabCar and Hurley Wilvert after hours at... the R&D department of Kawasaki, in secret of course!
The bike was assembled in Pesaro in the winter of 1978, and was tested by Valentino Rossi's father Graziano. It was fast and did exactly what it was supposed to do, I.E. not dive under braking and keep full traction as it was leaned into corners. But the front end lacked rigidity and was twitching. I had some obligations and could not stay ther any longer, so I designed a reinforcing bracing and left.
From what I gather, there was an internal dispute between Mr. Morbidelli and Rossi on one side, and the crew on the other. The crew was claiming that the problem was not a question of rigidity of the front brace but of the whole concept (I think that they felt threatened in their employment really...), while Graziano felt that he liked what he saw and wanted to pursue the experiment in the direction I had pointed.
As already, several top-level technicians had deserted to MBA, Mr. Morbidelli gave in and they built a new frame with a conventional steering column and a telescopic fork. Rossi did quite well with the bike and fought a tough battle with Kork Ballington all year, but too many falls and mechanical failures meant that Ballington won the championship, and not us.
Wanting to concentrate on the new 4-cylinder 500cc, Morbidelli then sold the 250cc program and all the spares to Ad Majora. They did not do too well with them, unable to really understand the complex engines designed by Jorg Muller and encountering lots of mechanical failure, let alone get to speed. So eventually, Giancarlo bought the bikes back and restored them for his museum, now located in the old woodworking machinery plant.
Regards,
T54
#250
philippe7
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- 2,846 posts
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Posted 01 March 2005 - 08:18
Thanks for the story T54.
What I am not quite sure about , and that you maybe could shed some light on, is the relation/link/heritage story between Morbidelli and MBA.
From what I remember, in 1977, Morbidelli transfered the construction of their "production" 125 machines, which they had started selling to private riders in 1976, to a new company called "Morbidelli Benelli Armi", who was –or soon became ? - a part of the Moto Guzzi - de Tomaso group…and fairly soon, MBA gained total independance from Morbidelli – although their 125 twin remained based on the original Jorg Moeller design.
On the other hand , I am not sure about the 250 model that appeared under the MBA name in 1979 , ridden by Palo Pileri and Maurizio Massimiani . Was it a straight copy of the Morbidelli 250 twin, or maybe was it designed along the same lines by Jorg Moeller , who had left Morbidelli (end of 77 ?) . In any case, the 250 MBA lasted long after the 250 Morbidelli ( then Ad Majora ) disappeared , scoring a GP win with Roland Freymond in 1982 , and featuring well as late as 1985 with Guy Bertin.
On another topic, regarding the early life of the Morbidelli factory ( their pre-Jorg Moeller life , actually ) : In 1973 , they had signed Angel Nieto as their works 125 rider , following the tragic death of Gilberto Parlotti at the 1972 Tourist Trophy. That year, I remember reading in the press about ( and seeing pictures of ) a mysterious 350 , square 4 machine that Nieto tested on a few occasions – but never actually raced , I think. The design looked fairly similar to the 500 square four that Mordidelli built many years later . . Did you ever see this machine T54, and does it exist today in the Morbidelli museum or has it disappeared altogether ?
What I am not quite sure about , and that you maybe could shed some light on, is the relation/link/heritage story between Morbidelli and MBA.
From what I remember, in 1977, Morbidelli transfered the construction of their "production" 125 machines, which they had started selling to private riders in 1976, to a new company called "Morbidelli Benelli Armi", who was –or soon became ? - a part of the Moto Guzzi - de Tomaso group…and fairly soon, MBA gained total independance from Morbidelli – although their 125 twin remained based on the original Jorg Moeller design.
On the other hand , I am not sure about the 250 model that appeared under the MBA name in 1979 , ridden by Palo Pileri and Maurizio Massimiani . Was it a straight copy of the Morbidelli 250 twin, or maybe was it designed along the same lines by Jorg Moeller , who had left Morbidelli (end of 77 ?) . In any case, the 250 MBA lasted long after the 250 Morbidelli ( then Ad Majora ) disappeared , scoring a GP win with Roland Freymond in 1982 , and featuring well as late as 1985 with Guy Bertin.
On another topic, regarding the early life of the Morbidelli factory ( their pre-Jorg Moeller life , actually ) : In 1973 , they had signed Angel Nieto as their works 125 rider , following the tragic death of Gilberto Parlotti at the 1972 Tourist Trophy. That year, I remember reading in the press about ( and seeing pictures of ) a mysterious 350 , square 4 machine that Nieto tested on a few occasions – but never actually raced , I think. The design looked fairly similar to the 500 square four that Mordidelli built many years later . . Did you ever see this machine T54, and does it exist today in the Morbidelli museum or has it disappeared altogether ?
