Here's one for the model - toy collectors and the Alfisti out there:

Alfa-Romeo issued a promotional model of the Tipo 158/159 in metal, with rubber tires. Does anyone know what company made this for Alfa, what year (or years) it was made, and how many were made?

I meant to say in the previous post that I think this was made in the early 1950's, and that I heard it was given by Alfa to important persons. Any information would be appreciated.

Peter:

I know Don Veta has/had one and that there are at least two versions; one with a stamped, stenciled grille and one with a cast grille. It has been at least 20 years since I saw Don's, and if I remember correctly, he said only about 100 of both versions were ever made. I have no idea what he paid. If I remember correctly, it's about 18" long.

Peter,
Contact Dick Crosthwaite at C&G in England. They made a really nice repro of the car that they sell, and they know everything about it. I used to know the name of the manufacturer but time passed by and I forgot. It was originally sold in a painted wooden box decorated with decals of the world championships won by the car and pictures of Fangio and Farina. I had one but it did not fit in my collection so I sold it to Dick Barbour in the late 1980's if I recall.
Regards,

T54

Thank guys, I knew I'd hear from you both!

I already have this model; it's the one with the stenciled grill and a beautifully detailed, cast Alfa-Romeo Milano badge on the nose, and Pirelli tires. This is one of the originals, not one of the Crosthwaite & Gardner reproductions (I didn't know that they made one).

I was hoping that a TNF person might have the details, especially considering all the Alfa racing knowledge out there.

Here's a picture of my Alfa Tipo 159 "promo" car:

My cousin had (still has) one, his grandfather worked for Alfa Romeo, and got one as a present, I don't know the circumstances, for sure he wasn't a manager/director or something similar....unfortunately I'm not exactly in touch with my cousin, so I can't ask for more infos, sorry.

I didn't know C & G made a repro either. I have only seen 8 or 10 in my life, including in major toy collections in Europe, so it is obviously rare.

C&G make a LOT of things not too many know, but they are indeed a very precious resource.
There were 5 or 6 of these cars on shelves during my last visit. They are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing as all what they make.

There was one of those original cars in the original box at the 2002 Glendale January Antique Toy Show but the requested price was insane and the fellow took it home.
Regards,

T54

PS: the picture below to please Buford

T54,

Just out of curiosity, what's the C&G price for their reproductions?

And what was the "insane" price at the 2002 Glendale Toy Show?

Mine is not for sale, but it would be nice to know what the value is.

Thanks!

I unfortunately can't remember either for sure... the Glendale car was posted at $5k if I recall, and the C&G MAY have been 300 Pounds.

While perhaps not the answer you sought, here's another that is also correct:

Mebetoys, an Italian die-cast manufacturer later purchased by Mattel, made a limited edition model of the 158/159 in 1:20 scale (I think) around 1970. It was timed to coincide with the introduction of the then-new "Alfetta" sedan, which was also made in the limited edition.

These models were fairly typical die-cast construction, although the 158 had a removeable hood and decent engine detail. These were mounted to a wooden plinth and serialized, although the serial numbers were on a label that fell off fairly easily. I don't recall the total production quantity, but I think it was a few thousand.

Actually it was 1981 and they were rather mediocre models, suffering from the "blobby" aspect of poorly executed die-casting methods.
Today, you can't give them away at antique model shows. As usual, rarity is by no means desirability.

I did a bit of research about the large Alfa 158 manufacturer and it is simply... Mercury, which had a licence. MLB is the manufacturer producing the famous "Toschi" Ferrari F2 of 1953.

T54

The Mebetoys came in TWO versions. It was first released as a promotional, in a series of something like 1000, and then was later sold as a "standard" Mebetoys. The only difference I am aware of it the box and a aticker on the bottom of the promotional.

I actually collect real full-sized cars, so I'm fairly ignorant about a lot of the model & toy manufacturers. Are Mercury and MLB one and the same? I'm certainly aware of Mercury's models/toys, as I have several of their Cisitalias, but the Mercury stuff I've seen has been about 1/43 scale. I also have a Toschi Ferrari, but I think the Alfa 159 "Promo" is overall a more representative model. The Alfa speaks to me...while the Toschi Ferrari just sits on the shelf.

In your research, did it mention the quantity made?

Are the C & G reproductions marked so people know they what they are? I sure hope so, or are we going to see them down the road being sold as originals?

While hunting for "other things" I came across this on e-Bay up for bid. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to bid.

ALFA ROMEO 159 LARGE MODEL by CROSTHWAITE & GARDINER

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...6508497013&rd=1

They are two different companies. MLB was more into tinplate while Mercury was into zinc die-casting. Mercury made many sizes of cars from 1/87th to that big Alfa. Most collectors only know of the 1/43rd scale cars, but the Alfetta was also made in the tiny "HO"scale.


Here you go! That's the car I was talking about, a perfect replica. Price asked is actually what they go for...

T54

T54, how and where did you find Mercury as producer?

As a miniature Alfa collector, I have many sources about them, and as far as I recall, I've seen that model with "unknown maker" mention everywhere, including Paolo Rampini's books and some specialized articles. Now, I can indeed believe such an attribution. But my understanding of such mentions would have led me to guess an automobile parts manufacturer (many accessories such as fuel pumps, etc. are made of cast aluminium alloys, so tooling and knowhow was available on that side too) rather than a toy manufacturer.

As far as release year is concerned, I seem to remember (to be checked) that it should be late 1951 or even 1952, i.e. after the second world championship. I have nothing about the number of models produced.

OTOH, the Mebetoys is indeed a totally different matter. Scale is indeed 1/25, and there were actually two models issued, the 159 and the P2. I would not rate it as bad as you do, T54. I agree that the lines are a little bit fat, but compared to the then current mass toys production, it's not that bad. The point is that it's NOT that rare, rather than disregarded due to quality.

And yes, I also have both the 1/43 and 1/87 159s by Mercury. The little thing is lovely indeed, while it's interesting to put alongside the Mercury and the Dinky Toys 1/43 models. Completely different interpretations, the Dinky being closer to the real thing, but the Mercury having its own charm.

As for promotional 159s, I managed to buy a Western Models 1/24 one on a wooden base on which a copper plate celebrates the comeback of Alfa on the US market in the late 80,s wishing success to the US Alfa dealers.

While I agree with Patrick Italiano that the model we are dealing with is NOT Mercury, there was a Mercury-made large-scale 158/159-like model car.
From the Mercury 1951 catalogue, pages 6-7, it was 26 cm long, painted red, with steering front wheels through a 50 cm rod to be inserted into steering wheel spokes and used to turn it from some distance: sort of very basic "remote" control.
The model, defined as Art. 80 (Articolo, i.e. item) was named "Autoguizzo Grande da Corsa", i.e. Large "Swish" Racing Autocar.
The general shape is undoubtely Alfa, the grille is 158/159, yet it could also be seen as the Varzi 1948 Temporada 12C/37 car. Fantasy helps.

If I recall, it WAS Dottore Paolo Rampini himself who told me that the car was made by Mercury especially for Alfa Romeo's use.
Regards,

T54 :\

Hi Aldo

do you have any illustration of the "Autoguizzo"? I know of its existence, but cannot figure out what it looks like. Could hopefully turn out useful

T54: I'm pretty sure (I mean I even didn't care to check, but I will this evening) that Dr. Rampini, in his 1993 book on Alfa miniatures, lists the promo 158 as "unknown maker". So did as well, IIRC, several articles in Alfa publications (Quadifoglio old- and new series). I'll come back with more precise references.

Hi Patrick,
I have his book and indeed he says so, but this is what he told me. May be C&G know better, I will give a call to the men in Buxted.
Regards,

T54

Could this be one of the original models that you are talking about, for sale at an Italian classic car dealership? The text appears to be suggesting it was one of two presented to Fangio by Alfa Romeo, although my Italian is not good enough to pick up any of the finer points of what is written.

Clicky Linky ...NB you have to click the 'no grazie' button to see the details.

There is a sketch of the "Autoguizzo" in the old Mercury catalogues, but I have never seen one in person.

I would have some concern that 20 years from now someone tries to pass of one of the "replicas" as a real one..

Tall stories abound when something of value is for sale...
I myself have a couple of bridges with very intersting stories, and even a piece of pizza with an imprint of the virgin Mary.
Regards,

T54

Which part of the virgin Mary got into the pizza? In looking at the G & C repro, it's nice but I can definately see differences compared to my original. Especially around the nose, the grill, the Alfa emblem (and its placement). But my question remains, is the C & G repro marked so that it can not be sold as an original sometime down the road?

AutoDelta: The one on the Italian web site certainly looks like one of the originals. I bought mine in Italy, along with a beautiful M.R.A. (Paris) gas powered Cisitalia D46 "toy".

I was referring to the bogus piece of pizza that sold on E-Pay about a month ago with an "imprint" of the virgin Mary, for a cool $18K. Some people are really dumb.
The Alfa offered is real indeed, but the added-value story appears to be tall.

Even if C&G did not mark their cars, they could never have the patina of the real thing in the same manner as no one will be able to pass a replica Tootsietoy or Dinky Toys pre-war car for the real thing. Only uneducated and gullible people will be taken.
Regards,

T54

From what I can read on the Luzzago description, their example should be signed on the tail by the 1951 WorldChamp drivers.: Nino Farina, Juan Manuel Fangio, Luigi Fagioli, Emanuel De Graffenrried, Piero Taruffi and Reg Parnell. How strange that Fangio signed his own example, but who knows...

I agree that normally one could be able to differenciate an original from a copy by the patina aspect, but I still find that some kind of clear marking would have hurt nobody,... except possible crooks.

And it may prove tricky to judge from patina for instance when buying online. On the Luzzago picture, I bet youy hardly recognize any driver signature.

Exactly.
This is why it is so suspicious. Why would anyone sign something that is offered to him?
It is of course possible, but this kind of stuff should be backed by evidence such as pictures taken then or precise event descriptions, otherwise it's hot air to me. Also from my experience in over 35 years of collecting glorified thrash, the Italian have always appeared to me to over-value any toy coming from their own country. So all the ones I have have been purchased or traded outside Italian collecting circles for that very reason, I must say at great savings...



T54

I agree, and patina is fairly easy to fake. Art museums and recognized experts have been fooled many times, and not just in online purchases, but even in hands-on inspection. To make a reproduction without clearly marking it as such just invites the unethical to take advantage. In toy racers it's fairly easy because there are normally no chassis numbers.

However, it's even been done with full-sized race cars. I believe there are two D-Type Jaguars with the same chassis number, and both owners claim they have the genuine car. If there's enough money involved there's always going to be someone to take advantage.

Not so easy. Truth is, it is easy to fool some people but not so easy to fake patina... I have been offered many "original" toys that had been beautifully restored, but they HAD been restored and it does not take long for an exercise eye to figure it out.
Regards,

T54

I beg to differ, but I think we are discussing two different things. You are mostly correct; to an experienced eye a restored piece is normally fairly easy to tell from an original, because most restorers over restore, and the piece lacks the patina the original would have. However, if a well done, exact reproduction, which has be allowed to gain patina (either through genuine age or other more false methods) is presented as an "original" it is sometimes very difficult to tell. I have over 50 years of experience with collectible automobiles and toys, it's my business and my passion, but I'm not infallible and I can still be fooled.

I think one of Cameron Millar's Maserati 250F's could be mistaken today for an original if it had the proper chassis number, and wasn't marked as one of his cars. I'm sure there are more than a few vintage racers out there that are "reproductions" or pure fakes, and I'm sure there are more than a few "experts" who've been fooled.

I agree with Peter. I know a few people who have the capability of "restoring" Tootsietoys and Dinky Toys, and have done such a good job that some well known toy collectors have been fooled.

I have just purchased another of the original Alfa 159 "promo" models. While my first one, discussed above, (and most of the photos of others I have seen) has the number 22 on the tail, this one has the number 10. I'm sure someone can tell me about this.

I'm also going to need a steering wheel and windshield for this car. Are these parts available from Crosthwaite & Gardner - or maybe someone else?

Farina drove a car numbered 10 when he clinched the 1950 title at Monza. Fangio drove a car numbered 22 when he clinched the 1951 title at Pedralbes.

In WC races, no other Alfa carried 22, but Fangio won in a car numbered 10 at Spa in 1950.

I'll leave it to you model experts to work out what that all means ....

Thank you Vitesse2, that clears it up for me. I knew someone could tell me. Now, I still need a steering wheel and windshield frame.

Enclosed a photo of my office and the Crostwaithe & Gardner Alfa model, value is around £1,000.- if you can find one.

Hi,
somebody know about the evaluation of models of 1970 by Mattel Mebetoys Alfa Romeo 158-159 and Alfa Romeo Grand Prix P2 1:25?

Thanks

Well, I would have said the $50 range to be fair, but it seems that you can come across cheaper examples on eBay if you have some patience.

In Italy in the late 70s, when they were in the toys shops showcases, I remember I paid 10 000 liras each for mines (would be $5 today...)

http://www.carmodel.net/zoomPage.php?MTcyM...TcyMDcnLCAnMScp

take this with a pinch of salt....

Thank you very much.

Ypee, I'm millionaire!!