Its very difficult to find images of the March 735S on the web but eventually found one. The photograph top left shows the March 735S with what looks like a fabricated wing. It is however the works car so I presume this would have passed to customer cars. Its contemporaries have mch larger wing arrangements.

I think you misunderstood me - I meant there was no wing anywhere near the car when I went to March (5.10.1973) to photograph it, there was nothing about the car at that same time to lead me to think a wing would be added, I didn't ask and no-one came up to me and said - as sometimes happened - "By the way, Tony, there is a rear wing, we just haven't made it yet, but we can give you a drawing."

Having seen the car race some time later with a wing there was no way I or MN were sufficiently bothered to add a wing to the cutaway and re-print it in a later issue, I was onto other projects.

Penske PC23 Ilmor 'Indy' Champcar



Penske PC23 Ilmor Mercedes 500I Indycar - spot the difference! No prizes...

March 73S BMW from Marchives.com

, ,

from net some time ago - restored car



Ibsen
http://public.fotki.com/ibsenop/

Thanks Ibsen, that is more or less how I saw it at Biscester, but with the engine installed.

Hey Tony

The two Penske PC23's would differ by their road course and High speed oval wings.

That was too easy!

I suspect that the tire pressures may also be different between the two drawings for the same reason!

Stephen

There's a bit more to it that, matey! I make it twelve, not counting the obvious wings.

Tony,

Are these 2 totally separate illustrations are are they one that's been modified to make the second?

The reason that I ask is that the common parts seem to be a perfect copy of each other.

Amazing

Cheers,

Alan

Posted before, back in the mists of time, but it should give a clue or two, if poetry is not too OT.

Well. My guess are: absolutely different wings and their elements, both front and rear.
Different brake's disks, ventilated on Champcar and solid on Indycar and brakes ducts on Champcar and their absence on Indycar.
And... sorry I don't know what those elements are: is it part of braking system or part of upright.

The bigger "fin" on Champcar.
And next thing is different engine, at least engine's lables and wireing.
And... another sorry but in this case I don't know how those elements are called

And a little bit different cuts



I hope you excuse my poor English, especially tech terms.

Well done Vadim, I think that counts as eight, with front and rear brakes and brake backplate/cooling ducts as two, but there are more...! I like the way you have separated and arrowed some of the detail!

Hello Tony, I checked and the McLaren is unsigned. It does have a different look from yours too. It appeared in the Vol 2 Issue 3 of 1993.

Thanks for reminding me what it looked like DHF, it is, I think, all airbrush and has a nice feel about it, I just worry a little about the small cutaway on top of the RH radiator intake duct - it looks like someone dropped a brick on it...

well Tony here are two works by Gordon Bruce for you to enjoy.
Gordon Bruce regularly contributed cutaways to accompany articles on new race car launches
in SCG (Sports Car Graphic) in the 60s

Gordon Bruce



I managed to pick-up about 50 copies of SCG at the Bangkok Sunday Market a few years ago for
about two bowls worth of fried Thai noodles.

"People don't understand time. It's not what you think it is. It's complicated... Very complicated... People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of... wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff..."
The Doctor

Given that most of us are able to visualize your cutaways from 1973 without ever having seen them since, that post was just moments ago. Poetry's fine by me btw.

Very nice, Marc, I remember seeing his work before, now that you have jogged my memory. Very 'period' artwork, especially the two-tone background. There have been times when I would have swopped 50 copies of ANY magazine for two bowls of fried Thai noodles!

Mark, you are a gentleman and a scholar - if not a Time Lord.

Ok, Vadim was more attentive. The brake rotors, (steel for road course and CF for the Indycar) and engine should have been obvious. duh!! You meant this as a real contest!


But, how about the


-windscreens that are different

-rear brake cooling scoops, see inside face of the left rear wheel

-front brake cooling scoops, see inside face of the left front wheel

-Fuel line to the top of the engine is different

-Different wing rear end plate graphics The Speedway version includes Miller Genuine Draft. There is also a sponsor name on the champcar front end plates that does not appear on the Indycar.

- the rear engine cover is higher above the plenum due to the taller pushrod engine on the Indy car, as well as the dorsal fin as noted by Vadim

- the pop-off valve on the champcar has some electronic controls while the Indy car is mechanical(Vadim noted the difference, but that is why)


The upper front wing element in message 1111 is also not the same as the upper front wing element in message 1109 illustration first illustration.


Are we getting warmer?

Stephen

I see something all together different. The blending of the gouche paint has a more subtle and relaxed quality on the Indy Car. It was probably painted with a touch of a fine malt whiskey used as a catalyst. I also think that the relative humidity averaged 68% for the duration of the Indy painting, and more like 76.4% for the Road Car. Those conditions can have a huge effect on the look and feel of the work. I also see some small details on the Road Car that indicate Tony was agitated at the time. Perhaps a persistant nagging dog barking down the street was bothering him.....wait a minute....that sound could be a woman.

Dear Tom, regardless of whosoever finds, or can be bothered to look for, the smallest detail difference, you have undoubtedly won the Tony Matthews Golden Digit Award for Prose Poetry and Imaginative Writing - henceforth known as the TMGDAPPIW - by a unanimous vote (no-one is going to argue with me, it's my bloody prize!) and will, in the fullness of time, as assessed by markpde, receive a life-size Golden Digit statuette.

Yes and the black race number , and Mercedes logo on the "Indy" nosecone
Furthermore it looks to me as if the roadcourse car rear wing is mounted on two flat sheet supports,
whereas the oval track car has a singular profiled support.

Well, knock me over with a tulip! Marc, you have noticed two differences that I had not seen! I posted these two versions before I set out to find all the changes, I knew there were several, but it was only after the first response that I thought I'd better make a list - and now the list is longer!

Edit:- three!

Hate to be a smartarse, but at a glance the roll over hoop is the wrong colour - Emerson's (car 2) was red, Al's black and Paul's white. This was done when the cars reached the US, so it probably postdates Tony's painting.

Also, the "2" should be black with a red border on the car with the "D" engine.

What you can't see are the different underwing and completely unique gearbox for the "E" engine (Indy) car.

Thanks

Nigel

(Race Engineer, Tracy)

Hi Alan, the basic artwork is the same , just the changes done as patches and added, the biggest mod. being the engine, but the 500I was Top Secret, not even Marlboro, or at least, my Marlboro contact, knowing about it. In fact I had a frantic phonecall on the announcement of the new engine as it was assumed that the artwork, and my fee, were a total loss! It took a little while for me to calm her down and promise that all would be well, although there was a certain amount of midnight oil and gritted teeth involved for me - but I love a challenge. The bonus was that I was then commissioned by Ilmor Engineering to do a cutaway of the engine, which was a real treat!

2 cutaways used in ads for ( IIRC braided brake tubes, and period telemetry equipment) in 87 and 89 issues of Autosport.
Who may the artist be ?

Hi Nigel, well if you can't be a smartarse I don't know who can! However, regarding the numeral colour, it is black with a red outline on the 'D' car, and you are correct about timing, I was not necessarily kept up to date on cosmetic changes. For instance, the cockpit combing on the PC26 was originally white 'leather', changed to black as the white was deemed too susceptible to grubby finger prints - so I over-painted the white - then, lo!, changed back to white! Another over-paint, a tricky business with water-based paint, but I think a different, anti-grime, material was specified! All this I picked up from photographs of the car and confirmed with a call to Factory Road. One PC did have a roll-over hoop colour-change, but I can't say without checking, I think it went to black on Little Al's car. Another point is that the only PC I ever saw in its paint was the 20, which I did as a private job at the end of the season, in an attempt to keep Marlboro interested in a commission! Every other was just carbon, minutes away from being crated and ferried to Reading PA.

The underwing was certainly not something I could show easily in this type of illustration, even if Nigel Bennet had allowed it, but I knew about the gearbox, the crownwheel and pinion having to be beefier to handle the extra torque (or power, but we won't go there!), meant that the casing was 1 inch wider. This was not going to show, and as far as I know the basic appearence was very similar, so I left it. I had a deadline, after all...!

I haven't got a clue, Marc...

I've confused my 'D' and 'E', Nigel, in my haste to reply! I must sit down with a cuppa and think again, but it doesn't alter the fact that these details were not necsessarily relayed.. frustrating to a pedant like me!

It seems I took it too seriously. Anyway we've done a good job not expecting any reward.

Exactly, Vadim, you did very well, but it was never meant to be serious. I will post a list of what I think are the differences - but even that may not be difinitive! That's the problem when there are eagle-eye'd experts looking over our shoulders!

Another way of showing the differences, based on the penske PC18...

Thanks Tony! And I'm absolutely agree with you about "eagle-eye'd experts looking over our shoulders". Probably it was some kind a "momentary lapse of reason" from my side, sorry.

sorry for going OT

Hello Andrew
I was reading an old copy of PRIX Edition magazine and one of the ad was a drawing of Alesi and Senna @ the 1990 Pheonix GP, it's a great drawing to me, i like the angle it's looking at and it captures the intensity very well - then I realized it's drawn by you.

I've always like that drawing even a long time ago.

I also have got your drawing of Mansell & Senna @ the 1991 Barcelona GP.

Vadim

I agree, you did a great job of finding the details!

How can it be possible to take it too seriously! Details are what make these illustrations and they are to me the essence of what Tony and other cutaway illustrators are trying to capture.

Besides I thought it was that much more of a challenge when we started to take it more seriously!

BTW I forget to mention the camber, ride height, tire stagger and weight distribution differences!!

Thanks Tony that was fun. Got any more?

Stephen

Tony, this is a colorized version of your cutaway. Do you know it?
A poster from an old brazillian magazine "Grid". Sponsored by Mobil.
Parts name in portughese.
I prefer B&W version (never seen before).
Scanned in four A4 parts and stitch (welded - we are talking about cars) together.



Ibsen
http://public.fotki.com/ibsenop/

Well! That's interesting! I wonder who added the colour! At least they left my name on it. The whole idea was that in B&W it could be printed anywhere on any quality of paper, but someone obviously thought it needed a little addition... I did at least three, possibly five of these for Marlboro USA, I wonder if any others were colourized. As usual, Ibsen, I rarely saw my work reproduced, but I got occasional feedback. My very good friend, the late Geoff Lawson, one time Head of Styling at Jaguar Cars, said he found a small reproduction of my Ilmor-Chevrolet 265A engine in a GM/Chevrolet magazine in...Mexico!

The fact that you prefer the B&W version proves your impeccable taste, if proof were needed!

Hey Tony - I'm curious. With all the contact you've had with the top racing teams during your career, were you ever allowed to take any the cars you illustrated for a spin around the block?

Tom

Tom, I'm 6'4". No fit.

Bummer. How 'bout a Grand Prix motorcycle.....unlimited head room! They would just have to re-position the foot pegs so your knees wouldn't get in the way of the visor.

I think I have seen this printed (non colour version) with the key as well. Key was part in the upper left and lower right, no Mobil logos on the page.

Stephen

Speaking as an "expert" I thought you all did a great job of spotting the differences. I only sought to highlight the different gearbox and underwing (which I knew you couldn't show) as information to show the subtle but substantial differences between the two specs of the PC23 which some people might have found interesting. One of these days someone will write the story of the PC23 pushrod Indy project. Believe me, it was way more intense than you could imagine.

Best regards

Nigel

Oh, I thought that was your job description?

C'mon, Nigel, just say "Yes, I will!"

At Penske there are no job descriptions. As RP once said "Do you need me to drive the truck?"

Nigel, please do not for one moment think that was meant as a complaint - I have a slightly jokey style, and it is sometimes mis-understood. I think it is wonderful to have input from people who have the true experience, unlike the vast majority of enthusiasts, and people like me who have had the privelege of working on the periphery of such a fascinating industry. As to the Ilmor Mercedes 500I, or 265E as it was known to cover it's radical design, Karl Ludvigsen's 'Prime Movers' has a short but very interesting chapter on the engine, Ian Bamsey has written about it, and I have read a lengthy and wonderful tract but can't remember where - possibly an Ilmor book that I was lucky to be given by Paul and Mario.

At every opportunity I sing the praises of Ilmor and Penske in the saga of this engine and the chassis that it powered, one of the great engineering achievements of our time.

As to RP's attitude, I have admired him from the moment I met him, and the way he ran Penske Cars and Penske Racing was/is an inspiration.

Right, differences! Apart from the obvious wing thing, and 'invisibles' such as tyre pressures and stagger, etc., (sorry Stephen et al - tire), underwing and gearbox, we have, I think:-

Front brake back-plates/cooling ducts.

Front brake discs (rotors) steel v carbon.

Windscreens.

Engines, Ilmor 265D v Mercedes 500I

Pop-off valves.

Radiator outlet ducting.

Engine cover - raised for the push-rod engine.

Engine cover fin - Indy rules stated the fin should not extend beyond the rear-wheel centre-line.

Rear brake back-plates/cooling ducts.

Rear discs - ditto.

Various decals that macoran picked up!

Single-post rear wing mount on the Indy version, twin on the Champcar version.

and finally - ta daaah! - tiny front wing adjusters on the Indy version -

- and the 265D engine had bifurcated exhaust stubs due to the four valve head as opposed to the 500I's two-vale layout and straight stubs. That detail is just visible!

E & OE as they say in the retail world.

I thank you.

Some considerable time ago Jim Allington did some sort of deal that found him in possession of a whole collection of interesting motorcycles. I had always wanted a motorbike, and when I was about eighteen rebuilt a Royal Enfield 350cc Bullet, but sold it before I ever rode it, so the desire was still there. Jim was happy for me to pick a bike to buy from this 'stable' and after a brief flirtation with a Scott Flying Squirrel I decided on a Vincent Comet. I hastily took my 'bike test on a borrowed Honda 70 and took the Vincent out for a spin. At one point I passed a large local showroom with acres of glass display windows, and realised that here was an ideal oportunity to see myself in action. I turned my head to admire my new persona in control of a gleaming black and alumimium dream machine and saw reflected - a very large bloke in a slightly-too-short leather jacket completely overhanging a rather small motorcycle. It was never the same after that embarrassing glimpse.

what was the response?

Don't pull my leg that hard Tony, it might snap at the knee again.

A shuffling of feet and a "no, we won't need you to do that".

Roger said it after setting an arduous challenge for the team (I can't remember which...there were so many).

It was his way of saying "I'm not above doing anything that's needed, however "menial", and neither is anyone else".

No offence taken at all, I was on your wavelength.

Cheers

Nigel